BA CSD Suspended for incorrectly demanding hotel upgrade!

[justinzider]

A Longhaul CSD was suspended last week for demanding a room upgrade in line with BASSA's instructions.

At check in in Hong Kong the flight crew were given exec rooms and the CSD demanded an equivalent room.

After being advised of the rules and correct procedure (all pilots upgraded first and CSD then only if better room still available), he then proceeded to wave a BASSA instruction around, apparently left in his dropfile by BASSA.

The hotel copied it, refused an upgrade, and faxed it to BA. He was suspended on his return.

I don't have any more details or the result (if any) but at last it seems that BA will not be bullied by BASSA and their made-up agreements, at least in this area.

[keeperboy]

Hmmmm....

A bit doubtful of this story. Unless there is more to it than meets the eye.

Rightly or wrongly, the last BASSA magazine did state that In-Charge Cabin Crew are entitled to the same standard or room as the Flight crew.

I really can't imagine BA suspending a CSD whilst down route for demanding a room upgrade. Maybe a little ren de vous with their manager and some rapped knuckes, but suspension (??)

[Eddy]

Now, I don't have the Bassa magazine infront of me so can't quote exactly, but I'm sure that the arrangement was NOT that CSDs should have the same rooms as flight crew.

The arrangement was that CSDs should have the same standard of rooms as FIRST OFFICERS..... It's normal that the Captain is given a higher standard of room than the rest of the crew - CSD included.

Another part of the story that must be looked at is WHO arranged for the upgraded room.

If British Airways pays £100.00 for a Captain's room, £75.00 for a First Officer's room, £75.00 for a CSD's room and £65.00 for the rest of the rooms, that's surely all the Unions should be worrying out.

It's surely up to each individual hotel if who they choose to upgrade. So long as the company aren't booking a different grade of room for the CSD vs. First Officer, it should be of no consequence what kind of room anyone actually occupies.

[apaddyinuk]

Yes, I also think this is a pretty doubtful story, one reason being that if it was true then it would already have been covered by the BASSA website forums!
Also, Justinzider, may I suggest that if you are a BA crewmember with BASSA that you leave threads such as this for the BASSA website as it is only another excuse for some misguided and unneccassary BA bashing, if you are BA staff from elsewhere...well shame on you!!!! :p

[Dogs_ears_up]

I'm not a "BA Basher" but I'm sort of bothered to read that this would be better discussed away from public scrutiny on the BASSA forum. It may not intentionally be so, but it smacks of there being something to hide?

For the record, after 25+ years flying down the back for non Flag carriers, the idea of there being any agreement in place that puts me as the Cabin In-Charge on a par with anything more important than the hotel cat is fascinating.

IF (and that's a big IF) this story is true, then it demonstrates IMHO that there is some way for BA to go before they catch up with the LOCO's

[6chimes]

I think I might be able to help with this. You need to log onto

[email protected]

[Anti-ice]

:zzz: zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[justinzider]

Here's the ACTUAL wording from the Hotel Contracts Agreement:-

Where the Hotel wishes to upgrade Crew Members to superior rooms, (in addition to the Captain, and/or any specified in the agreement), such upgrades shall be allocated in the order of, Senior First Officers; First Officers; Cabin Service Directors and Pursers. Any room upgrade shall be at no extra charge to BA Group.

BASSA's "interpretation" is wrong.

Be careful out there.

[Da Dog]

eddy talking :mad: :mad: :mad: again, BA pays the same money for every room:rolleyes:

The clue is in the wording "at no extra cost to BA" we all start out with similar rooms, FC in alot of hotels will be on higher floors due to the noise clause in our contract, but the rooms are the same. Then and only if the hotel want to they begin to upgrade people starting with the Captain. BASSA are banging the drums to a different tune to everyone else, but don't they always:yuk:

[flapsforty]

Interesting but somewhat unclear to a furriner.
Could someone be kind enough to enlighten me on the following points?
BASSA is one of the unions representing BA cabin crew?
It's BA that pays for the hotel rooms?
Are the room standards something that is part if the negotiations between BA and the unions?
Pilots have a noise clause in their contracts which gives the right to 'quiet' rooms, but cabin attendants don't?
When the hotel upgrades people because their cheap rooms are all occupied, it's not the hotel itself but either BA or BASSA who believe they have the right to say who goes where? :confused:


As this is all very very different from the way we do things, it's rather fascinating.

[apaddyinuk]

And all of these replies are exactly the reason why I feel this subject is best not discussed in a public forum as people will get a wrong idea about BA crew and develope even more of an impression that we are mollycuddled which we are not!

Flapsforty....Yes Bassa is a CC union along with Cabin Crew 89.
Ba does pay for the hotel rooms.
Room standards are set by the unions in agreement with the company.
All crew are entitled to quiet rooms.
And if a crew member gets upgraded....well good for them, I dont think any of us have the right to demand an equal room! But jealousy is an evil thing that exists in any walk of life!

[DISCOKID]

I have flown longhaul frequently with BA in the past year.
Most of the time the CSD does very little other than make two passenger announcements, turn the IFE on and off and hand out some customer surveys.

If anyone should be in need of an upgraded room it should be the rest of the cabin crew that do all the hard work.

As a passenger I'm quite shocked that CSDs consider apparently consider themselves as important as flight crew.

[thegypsy]

That is the trouble when you give Cabin Crew fancy titles like Director. Some seem to think they are God and that applies to other Airlines as well as BA

[Eddy]

Wow, Da Dog, I was not speaking ":mad: :mad: :mad: again". I didn't say that the rates I posted WERE the rates the company paid. I didn't even say that the rates the company paid for each different crew grade were different. I merely posted an example of what the case MIGHT be.

I don't feel there was any need for your abusive post.

[flyblue]

Thank you for this gem thegipsy, we have finally found out why some people act in a stupid way: they are given the title "DIRECTOR" :ok:

[apaddyinuk]

And yet it continues that people are getting a wrong impression of BA crew and this time the CSD's! Yes there are some lazy CSD's out there but fortunately these are the few. But discokid, how do you know the CSD did little or nothing on your flight? How do you know that they were not busy doing the paper work that is involved in the job, writing reports from when things went wrong on a previous sector, busy observing pursers for asessements, busy helping crew do the service in a cabin that was not the one you were in....generally on a 777 you will find the csd in the club galley running the service for the purser!!!! Bet none of you regulars knew that!!!!

Enjoy your SIN this weekend!!!

[flybywire]

And if a crew member gets upgraded....well good for them, I dont think any of us have the right to demand an equal room! But jealousy is an evil thing that exists in any walk of life!

I totally agree.


Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad and even sadder crew.

[flapsforty]

apaddyinuk thank you for clearing up most of my questions; makes it a bit easier to understand.

Only one questions remains unanswered.
Is there anything formalised in BA, in writing, about who gets the upgrades if and when a hotel offers them? Does it say anywhere that for example the chain of command, as valid on the aircraft, should be followed in these cases, or is it a matter for people themselves to sort out there and then at the hotel's front desk?

This last method being the one we use, and the upgrades generally go to the youngest FAs since both our Senior Pursers and Captains heartily agree that the junior FAs have the physically most demanding jobs and the lowest salaries, which makes it extra nice for them with a suite.
Another facet is that hotels sometimes, without charging the company extra and without telling us at the time of check-in, give Captain & (Senior) Purser a better room, which they then usually 'open up' for crew drinks at least one evening.

So how this work in other companies then?

[Helli-Gurl]

I don;t see any reason why the flight crew should get a better room than the Cabin Crew? after all it takes all of them to 'operate' the aircraft successfully doesn't it?

[Human Factor]

Flaps,

Is there anything formalised in BA, in writing, about who gets the upgrades if and when a hotel offers them? Does it say anywhere that for example the chain of command, as valid on the aircraft, should be followed in these cases, or is it a matter for people themselves to sort out there and then at the hotel's front desk?

The formal "in writing" bit is exactly as justinzider said:

Where the Hotel wishes to upgrade Crew Members to superior rooms, (in addition to the Captain, and/or any specified in the agreement), such upgrades shall be allocated in the order of, Senior First Officers; First Officers; Cabin Service Directors and Pursers. Any room upgrade shall be at no extra charge to BA Group.

As far as I know, there's no agreement to upgrade anyone other than Captains. I'm also led to believe that the suspension was more a matter of the individual's attitude to the hotel's response than the demand/request for an upgrade itself.

[Da Dog]

eddy my opinion I'm entitled to it, you can pick your toys up now;)

Flaps, you work for a different company with a different culture.

appadyinuk, unfortunatly people already have the wrong opinion of BA crew............... doesn't take pprune to do it for you, compared to all other airline crew you are molleycuddled and spolit , get used to it, cos this is the perception most of the people in BA have, mind you I blame BA news (Pravda) for some of this.:yuk: :yuk:

Helli Girl, like it or not we only accept various hotels if we can stay on higher floors, these are stipulated at the time the contract is signed, don't know what BASSA do, but if you think they are any better than yours your mostly mistaken;)

[flyblue]

I don;t see any reason why the flight crew should get a better room than the Cabin Crew?
The reason is that usually Flight Crew have better Unions that negotiate better agreements.
Flaps In our mob usually the Captain get a better room, and depending on the hotel agreement the F/O(s) too. When someone else than the F/D gets an upgrade, it's usually on seniority (our crew lists are on seniority, so they assign the rooms according to the list) or at random. We usually aren't even notified that someone got an upgrade.
The requirements hotel accommodations must meet are codified by union agreements (ex: room service, not near elevators or ice machines, no communicating rooms etc).

[Eddy]

Hi Da Dag,

At no point was I saying that you weren't entitled to an opinion and at no point did I suggest that your opinion was wrong.

The only thing I took exception to in your post was your suggestion that I was "speaking :mad: :mad: :mad: again". Found that a bit harsh.

Nevertheless, ta!

- Apaddyinuk, who was the SIN message aimed at??? Me???

[Caudillo]

I don;t see any reason why the flight crew should get a better room than the Cabin Crew?

The reason is that usually Flight Crew have better Unions that negotiate better agreements.

I don't think that the flight crew should have better rooms than the crew - it's an unnecessary and pointless divide. However, when they do get them I would suggest it's for the same reason they get paid a higher salary.

[flapsforty]

Temporary thread drift alert!!

I trust you are equally aware that it is in fact our mob that generate the profit for the new company, while your lot bleed euros at an alarming rate? :p

No need to thank us my dear, we love propping you guys up!

Back to the thread; Caudillo if I understand the posts by others here correctly, what should or should not be has little bearing on things. It appears to be a matter that is negotiated between the various unions and the companies.

As an aside, while in an ideal world a company would try to be 'fair and evenhanded' with it's employess, in the real world, most company management I know love to play the age old game of 'divide & rule' to set up Pilots and FAs against eachother. That way, both groups distrust eachother too much to ever get together properly and really give management some good opposition. ;)
Cockpit and Cabin Crew seem to fall for this ruse in many companies, and in the end it's the beancounters who win, not the people who actually man/woman the aircraft. :(

[flyblue]

Da Dog
I agree with Eddy here that you sounded a little agressive when there was no need at all. There are other ways to say "Eddy, I believe you are mistaken", instead of saying "eddy talking :mad::mad: :mad: again".
Eddy is a valuable and generous contributor on this Forum and I don't think he deserves this kind of treatment. I am sure an aoplogy wouldn't go wasted.

[Captain Airclues]

As we read these messages there are thousands of people in SE Asia and Africa dying because they don't have a roof over their head. Why are we so concerned about the size of the room? Is it a status thing?
Personally I believe that the best room should go to anyone who has a family member with them, followed by anyone who is prepared to use it as the party room. All I need is a room that is quiet, dark and has a bed that I can fall on after a night out with the crew.

Airclues

[Eddy]

Despite what I've said above about the hotels offering upgrades on a basis of their choosing, I do think that in terms of the BOOKED rooms we have, all crew should be given the same grade of accommodation.

As was so correctly pointed out above, the booking of a superior room grade for a Captain, for example, offers the indication to him by the company the he is above, superior to, more valuable -call it what you wish - than the rest of the crew.

While this may indeed be the case, I do believe this is also to blame for a severe lack of CRM that some of the company's Skipper posess.

I am pleased that they are in the minority, but some of the company's Skippers are very eliteist and high-and-mighty. Thing is though, the company encourages this by offering the higher room grade and also rest in First Class, for example.

I don't hold this against our captains - they have a fabulous union who works hard to get these "perks" for them - but one or two do need to realise that although they have a superior room, it doesn't really mean that they are a superior being, if you will.

[Right Way Up]

Whats wrong with the Captain getting the biggest room, it means he has to clear up the after party residue?! :D

[Da Dog]

Eddy are some CDS not high and mighty? Do some CSD not belive they are superior to everyone?

You do look at life through rose tinted specticles when it comes to looking at your own. Talk about picking your most convenient arguments.

Eddy use your Cabin Crew "listening skills" will you, the Captains room is bought and paid for at the same rate as yours mine and everyone else, it starts out being no different to everyone else, speak to Hotel Contracts ................... please and get the offical version of the upgrade policy for yourself(hint most of it has been posted on the thread already, VERBATUM) Then you will stop coming out with crass comments like and I quote "The booking of a superior room grade for a Captain" (which is blatantly untrue) and I will then stop saying that you are talking :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad

Flyblue I am sure that eddy is a valued contributer but what is the point if the info given is sooooooooo untrue? What value is that?

[keeperboy]

I don't know if BA have put anything in writing about room upgrdes, but BASSA definitely have. The only thing I could find on the BASSA website was something along the lines of 'Please fill in a report if you are operating as CSD and don't receive a room at the same grade as the First Officer(s)'.

But I agree, I don't understand why the CSD should get a room one bit more superior than anyone else.

I was the most junior crew member on a recent trip to SFO. I think because I was right at the bottom of the list the poor receptionist felt sorry for me and gave me an upgraded room.

I was so excited I made the mistake of mentioning my fantastic view to the rest of the crew. The CSD was straight on the phone to the hotel Duty Manager wanting (and getting) an upgrade as well. :mad: :confused: :yuk:

[Dogs_ears_up]

How do you know that they were not busy doing the paper work that is involved in the job, writing reports from when things went wrong on a previous sector, busy observing pursers for asessements, busy helping crew do the service in a cabin that was not the one you were in....
The point is that this is what many other airlines do, but in many cases, the CSD is also built into the onboard service - in other words, all the above is done in addition to the primary duties.

[TightSlot]

Despite what I've said above about the hotels offering upgrades on a basis of their choosing, I do think that in terms of the BOOKED rooms we have, all crew should be given the same grade of accommodation.

As was so correctly pointed out above, the booking of a superior room grade for a Captain, for example, offers the indication to him by the company the he is above, superior to, more valuable -call it what you wish - than the rest of the crew.
But surely, He/She IS above/superior to the rest of the crew. If you don't understand that, then you may become a potential safety hazard in an emergency.

The crew (inc F/O) may work as a team, but there is a team leader - the Captain. He/She carries the ultimate responsibility for decision making in all the areas that matter: This fact is recognised financially by the airline.

Many Cabin Crew are confused by the nature and purpose of CRM, which is primarily a cockpit safety tool, and includes the word "Management" - and therefore requires a "Manager". Although there is CRM overspill into the cabin during certain kinds of incident, and therefore Cabin Crew need an understanding of what is going on, that is not the primary focus of CRM. CRM does not, and never was intended to relate to such things as hotel room upgrades or buying drinks for Cabin Crew.

Surely, we must all face facts - The Captain is indisputably Top Dog on the crew team. Some of them handle it in a discreet way that makes things tick smoothly, like a swiss watch: Some lack team skills and the watch slows up. That is because they are human. Ugraded hotel rooms are provided as a way to pay respect to the rank/position, not the individual.

It is up to us (as CSD's or whatever we are called chez vous) to support the Captain at all times in managing the crew. To do so effectively, we need to have a clear understanding of the chain of command within the team.

[flapsforty]

Hear hear!! :ok:

[keeperboy]

Regarding a chain of command, there is no grey area here.

The chain of command is clearly set out in our 'Flying Crew Orders'.

1210 "All crew members are under the direct supervision of and directly responsible to the Captain and shall perform all duties pertaining to the flight as directed by him."

1211 "The chain of command of the crew is:
Captain
Relief Captain
First Officer
Cruise only Co-pilot
Senior Cabin Crew Member

Now I normally wouldn't go lookin up Flying Crew Orders on a Sunday morning, but eh, what else is a boy to do in Kuwait? lol

Apparently when it comes to crew breaks/bunk rest though, it is totally at the discretion of the CSD.

[flybywire]

The CSD was straight on the phone to the hotel Duty Manager wanting (and getting) an upgrade as well.

Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad.

[Hand Solo]

I don't know if BA have put anything in writing about room upgrdes, but BASSA definitely have. The only thing I could find on the BASSA website was something along the lines of 'Please fill in a report if you are operating as CSD and don't receive a room at the same grade as the First Officer(s)'.

What BA have put in writing (in every single hotel contract) has already been posted. BASSA believe that they have an agreement that CSDs should have rooms equivalent to FO's. Unfortunately:

i.BA deny the existence of any such agreement.
ii.BASSA cannot produce a written copy of said agreement.
iii.No minutes exist of the meeting where said agreement was reached.

Which would lead most non-BASSA people to a fairly logical conclusion.

[Wingswinger]

I was going to write something here but having read it all I really can't be bothered. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Hand Solo]

But you did anyway.

[flybywire]

I cannot believe that we're at this point. I cannot believe there are some people who get mad because they don't get a hotel room "upgrade" - whatever that means - and that Bassa and other unions spend their time (and our money) thinking of and fighting BA for these stupid rules.

Our operation has many other problems that would come first in my order of priorities, I still cannot believe that these days they are discussing about hotel upgrades, especially if we consider that 99% of BA hotels around the world are well known top class 4-5 star hotels (and if a particular one isn't you're allowed to compensation!!!), where even the cleaners' rooms would be good enough for me and for the company policy anyway!!!!!!

If that CSD got suspended for their attitude towards the hotel staff I can only be pleased. There are way too many rude people who get away with the most embarassing things. I don't tolerate rudeness from crew the same way as I don't tolerate it from passengers.
I feel sorry for the poor skipper who (hopefully) apologised to the hotel staff on befalf of BA and of the selfish crew.

These people make us all look bad. It's a real shame.

FBW:mad:

[TopBunk]

fbw(and if a particular one isn't you're allowed to compensation!!!), news to me! Me thinks you know not what you talk about....

[flybywire]

TopBunk wrote: news to me! Me thinks you know not what you talk about....

:hmm:

From our "Memorandum of Agreements" V 2.1

page 11:

1.2.27 SUITABLE ACCOMODATION

A well furnished bedroom with bathroom, which is subject to minimum noise, is well ventilated, and has the facility to control the levels of light and temperature.

page 29:

3.1.8 SUB STANDARD ALLOWANCE

Amount paid if accomodation is sub standard. The Fleet Management has the authority to investigate claims.



Top Bunk, instead of just dropping a line saying that people in your knowledge and opinion don't make any sense, why don't you spend two minutes of your valuable time enlightening us with your knowledge and clarifying things, instead?


FBW

[tart1]

Excellent stuff FBW!! :cool: :cool:

[TopBunk]

FBW

... ahhh, should have seen which section I was posting in, you are a Doris. The pilot community have no such 'Sub Standard Allowance' in our agreements, but then again, our reps usually do a better job in defending hotel standards than yours!

[sukigirl]

BA definately has a different way of doing things than our airline. Once i was checking out of same hotel at same time as BA in BGI and the CSD was getting really angry with the front desk staff and demanding monetary compensation for all the crew. The crew (along with all our crew also) had duff rooms, some with no leccy, no running water, phone not working, blocked sinks etc.. This was a common problem with this hotel and their staff couldnt care less and always gave us attitude. Luckily we no longer stay there and im sure BA dont either.
However they were right to complain as im sure our FSM did but i dont see how THEY are entitled to compensation when they havent themselves paid for the rooms. This post is not a dig at BA crew all im saying is that prioritys are very different in your airline.

[flybywire]

TopBunk wrote:
... ahhh, should have seen which section I was posting in, you are a Doris. The pilot community have no such 'Sub Standard Allowance' in our agreements, but then again, our reps usually do a better job in defending hotel standards than yours!

Great way to apologise, TopBunk :hmm:
Anyway I deserved it as I should have understood from your previous comment that you're a very smart and bright person therefore you don't sit at the back with us :E
(What the hell is a Doris anyway... I suspect some kind of disrespectful nickname or something)


You know what? I am pleased that your unions are so efficient at defending "hotel standards", in fact that is really great for you considering what a big percentage of your annual income goes to BALPA every year to sort out these issues...!!

I am totally HAPPY and satisfied with the quality of the rooms of the hotels we stay at. I have never asked/expected/wished I had had an upgrade. The hotel staff are usually really good with us too as we treat them with respect and they often go the extra mile for us in other ways anyway.

Maybe this happens only in the happy Doris World though.

FBW

[Rescue 137]

FBW-I completely agree with what you have said.These kind of things dont improve people's idea of BA crew.Most airlines crews stay in the 4/5 star hotels and get paid for it in the bargain.Moaning because they dont get the same room as the captain is petty.I wouldnt say that it is an easy job because it isnt but CC do get to fly all over the world and be paid for it.Ive met some BA staff that have been really nice people but unfortunately Ive met some BA Staff that are so up on themselves because they work for BA.These people that are the people that give BA this image.Hopefully the new blood that they keep recruiting can hopefully only do nothing than help to improve the BA image.

Top bunk-You are not doing yourself any favours-You are inforcing the impression that some people have of pilots that they are up yourself and over paid.With the attitude I have seen on here I would say you work for BA.I feel sorry for the Pilots that arent like the image you are putting over and are good people that treat everyone equal and dont look down on people because of what they do.

You are also inforcing the impression that people have of pprune-that it is for Pilots with attitude and people are just a little too intense.If you dont like what is posted on here then stick to the pilots forum.

Topbunk-Before you say someone is talking **** then check your facts next time although I did like seeing FBW make you think before you type next time.

[flyblue]

The one on the left is Doris

http://www.absolute.se/images/kidz/nemo/doris_marlin.jpg

[flyer55]

Why shouldnt CSDS or Psrs get the same standard of room as the flight crew?

[Carnage Matey!]

No reason at all, but thats not the issue. The issue is that when the hotels choose to upgrade crew members in what order should that take place. The order is clearly specified in the contract BA has with each hotel. BASSA believe they are entitled to something outside of that contract.

[Flying_Sarah747]

If this story is true, then the CSD in questioin should be ashamed of himself!!!!! As somebody else said, if you're upgraded, good for you, enjoy it, but if not, it's not the end of the world and you most certainly don't demand an upgrade. I'd be so embarrassed if I was one of the crew there!!!

I thought it was in the flight crews contract that they got a suite or a better room than what the cabin crew got anyway?????

[Human Factor]

Sarah,

I thought it was in the flight crews contract that they got a suite or a better room than what the cabin crew got anyway?????

Sadly not. All our agreement states is that we will be in quiet rooms away from lifts, vending areas, etc. BA choose the hotels then BALPA go to check them to make sure they meet the standards. If not, BALPA can veto the move. I presume BASSA does something similar. Otherwise, any upgrades must be no-cost to BA and done in the order posted above. Occasionally, someone lower down the food chain will get an upgrade (my record is the Presidential Suite!) but it's generally only when the hotels know the rooms won't be required by anyone paying the commercial rate.

Personally, I don't run around asking. So long as it's quiet and comfy (with an en-suite jacuzzi and butler ;) ) I'm happy. If I get an upgrade, great but I don't spend much time in my room beyond sleeping - and the beds are the same anyway!

Hope to see you downroute sometime.

HF

[crjlover]

I' working for one of the 5 regional airline of LH regional (as ops controller) and sometimes I'm involved with room reservation for our crews.
lots Hotels ask If the crew member are a CPT a FO or an FA.
And everytime it shock me: why a :mad: CPT should have a different?? Are we still in the 40s??

[apaddyinuk]

Da Dog,
Wow you have some attitude, people like you that give pilots a bad name, hope you never wind up in one of my CRM classes!

Sorry to stray from the topic a little but Da Dog, I agree that once upon a time BA crew were spoilt, however I am of new stock (new contract) and I can certainly say that this is not the case any longer! Yes I do benefit from better working conditions than at some airlines thanks to those who have gone before me and fought for certain conditions but I am also losing out as a result...example, my minimum days off, I dont earn enough to benefit from 3 days off after a short NYC trip, i could easily benefit from an extra trip or two a month! There are other little things that poeple dont realise!!! Im sorry if people have a problem that we have it slighty better then elsewhere but theres a simple response to that...put your misguided prejudicies aside and apply for BA, then judge for yourself!!! I know plenty of people who have and none have regretted it!!!

Now, back to the thread!

[Da Dog]

apaddyinuk said hope you never wind up in one of my CRM classes!

So you run CRM courses now do you? Still if it was anything like the last one, cabin crew messing up, not knowing their checks or drills, then crying because of the feedback I'd rather not see it:{ :{ :{

[Carnage Matey!]

Sorry Da Dog but I just can't believe you.

not knowing their checks or drills, then crying because of the feedback

Cabin crew never get negative feed back when they **** up their SEP, that would be soooo unfair.:) Now lets see if we can find that bomb at the third attempt shall we?

[etrang]

flyblue, love the picture. lol.

[apaddyinuk]

Ah Da Dog, Your just acting childish now! Suggest you find some other website to be petty on! I believe Seasame street have a good one that you might enjoy!

[mutt]

Around here, Captains are entitled to a suite, FO/IFS an executive room......

Last year we had a 744 Captain operate a 10 hour flight to Manila, on arrival he discovered that all the suites were full so he was offered an executive room. He immediately returned to the airport and d/h'ed back home! :)



Mutt

[Da Dog]

apaddyinuk....... you bought it up not me;)

Can't stand the heat get out of the galley:eek:

What part of my truthfull post hurt?......... the crying bit:mad: :mad:

[mad_jock]

I am just abit confused why the airline is held responsable for a descion which is taken totally out with their control by a supplier to give more than the required service. A quiet room with, Bed, Shower, toilet, telly and for me a room which the temp is bordering on freezing. Making a fuss about it is just going to stop any chance of anyone getting an upgrade in the future.

Its fair enough kicking up a stink if the room your given is sub standard in any form away from the minimum grade. But having a tantrum because one of your collegues has been lucky and given a upgrade is bloody childish. Whats next in the resturant the captain, FO and CSD all order steak do the hotel have to measure the size of the portions so the captain gets the biggest bit with most chips and the FO and CSD get the same size.

I have in the past given my room in the Marriot to the CC when it turned out she was meant to stay in the Brittania in Aberdeen. I couldn't live with myself if anything happened while she was staying there or the thought of her being upset and scared in a hotel.

MJ

[Carnage Matey!]

BASSA aren't used to being told 'No' and think they can have their way with hotel management by throwing a tantrum just like they do with BA. This is the same union that think that when the cabin crew have demanded extra crew on a flight according to their crew matrix and the hotel doesn't have enough rooms then the pilots should volunteer to stay in the substandard hotel.:\

[mad_jock]

I think a simple memo to all hotel suppliers stating that no upgrades to anyone under captain must be given without crewing approval. I am sure crewing have enough to do without having to deal with pish of crews down route having tantrums. 6 months of no upgrades. Then allow them and the first sign of any tantrums take it away again.

If they can't play with a ball without fighting take the ball off them.

[Carnage Matey!]

Why punish the FOs because the cabin crew can't behave? No upgrades whatsoever for cabin crew might do the trick? The hotel already know the upgrade procedure, it's crystal clear, written in unambiguous language.

[mad_jock]

I was thinking personally I wouldn't be bothered but i can see your point. Either no upgrades for cabin crew. And when they have a tantrum no upgrades for anyone for a while. I am sure peer pressure would sort the problem out.

[Jetstream Rider]

Why should the good Ccrew suffer? I hate putting everyone in the same boat. It seems BA have been reasonable in this case and it should send a message to the other fools who believe BASSA.

It won't affect the good crew who are not fools - as it wouldn't have done in the first place. Punishing crews will only make them stronger supporters of BASSA against the "nasty" management and then no one wins.

[mad_jock]

Nobody is suffering. Nobody is getting less than they are entitled to.

A perk because of abuse has been removed from the equation but nobody has been punished. Do you expect to be upgraded?

Maybe 6 months of there collegues moaning about no upgrades these days will shut the arseholes up. The members of said union will tell thier union to drop it and the upgrades will start again and everyone will be happy. The simple fact that someone has been suspended will have taken someone off line creating more work for the rest. Several managers are having to waste there time with all the associated hoop jumping so they don't get a call for industrial action on there plates. So 1 person having a tantrum will more than likely have cost the company into the £1000's. No upgrades equals no tantrums which equals hopefully a larger dividend for me.

Its your collegues and your Union to sort it out or loose it. The mangment by the sounds of it wern't invovled with getting the upgrades anyway so why are they the nasty managment?. Everything would be nice and fair everyone equal. It would be a bastard for the union to argue against that one.

Or how about telling the Hotels not to upgrade anyone unless your going to upgrade the whole crew to the same level, that would work as well.

[flybywire]

Are we talking about professional people or Kindergarden children who cannot behave?????

[ricciricardo]

No, we are talking about prima donnas, who, without their existance on earth our civilisation as we know it would simply crumble into obscurity!

[apaddyinuk]

WERE ALL FORGETTING SOMETHING!!!

Has this incident actually occured??? Most unlikely and there seems to be no prove to support it...all that is being said about either BA or BASSA is all being manufactured by you lot!!!

[Da Dog]

............. and therein lies the problem apaddyinuk:rolleyes: The relationship between BASSA and Cabin Crew is one of Parent sibling or Teacher pupil.

Just recently after a diversion due a wildcat strike, BASSA members were told under NO circumstance were they to leave their respective hotels until they had had 2 nights local rest, problem was it was Friday and Saturday nights and most people had something planned and wanted to hire cars and drive home, BA of course coul'nt provide any transport on the Saturday morning for fear of upsetting BASSA and the 2 night rule.

apaddyinuk, what part of any of my posts has been "manufactured"?:confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Jetstream Rider]

Mad Jock - No I never expect an upgrade, indeed I am very happy to get one and feel quite lucky to do so when it happens. By 'punish' I mean that should an upgrade be on offer, why should I lose out due to the actions of a selfish fool who made a fuss ahead of me? I don't make fusses like that, nor do I demand anything from a hotel. If there is a problem I always try to fix it in the politest way I can and I treat all the workers at the hotel with respect.

I just hate the "take it away from everyone" attitude, when it is the lowest common denominator that causes the problem. there are a number of things we cannot do in BA due to the actions of some idiots and I don't think treating the rest of us like children is the answer. Deal with the problem person (or union!) and let the rest of us carry on being professional.

[striparella]

I've only read the first couple of posts, but despite what really happened, i can believe this behaviour of Hong Kong.

I've worked for a few airlines now, crew wise and ground staff and i've always heard about people in Hong Kong being trigger happy when it comes to complaining about airline staff.

I've seen it myself when travelling on standby - reasonable people that i wouldn't have thought we're being rude pulled into an office when they get back with a complaint from that outstation. I had to act as witness on that occasion to say absolutely nothing offensive happened!

I think the good people of Hong Kong aren't used to people being up front about asking for upgrades - and especially those who've come off a 14 hour flight and may be a little disheveled.

[mad_jock]

I think striparella has proberly spotted the real reason why or if it occured. I still think peer pressure is the best way if not the only way to control these idiots.

The problem with selective policys is it leaves you wide open to victimisation claims. Mind you if the members of the union told the union that they wern't happy with what was happening. And with the union involvement a person gets banned would that work?

I feel quite sorry for the poor person that needs to sort it out. Thier knackard if they don't do something and knackard if they do.

What would happen if a member of flight deck behaved like that?

Anyway why is CC getting involved arguing with the Hotel If they are part of a full crew and they are not happy tell the Captain and they should deal with it. There's another solution all contact with outside service providers must be through the Captain

[wiggy]

mad_jock
Your comment :"All contact through outside service providers should be through the Captain" -had me rolling on the floor - though I am inclined to agree with you nevertheless
........You are assuming that all "our" Cabin Crew see the Captain as their "boss"/"chief representative"/"chief facililitator" when away from base......

[ozzy05]

:8 Folks we are talking about one individual CSD amongst several hundred others.

If the individual in question has indeed stepped out of line, then he / she will have had to answer for it back at base.

Speaking as a CSD at LHR I feel that any discussions regarding the relationship between CC and FC should be kept in house on our own forums.

As for hotel rooms, Has it got a bed, a bog / bath, telly. Is it clean? Then I'll have it.

Has the skipper been given an entire floor? Good luck to them and anyone else who gets a good room.

BA crew have enough bad press, some of it is earned, most of it is not. I am sad that this has become a BA bashing thread.

[mad_jock]

I don't think it has become a BA bashing thread. It relates more to do with personal interactions with each other when some peoples behaviour effect the working conditions of others. The problem which is being discussed could just as easily be in the engineering contract world or sales rep as it could in the airline.

And keeping it all under the sheets is a bit late now. I don't think many of your customers have much sympathy now when they hear of industrial strife at BA.

And I am not suprised you want to keep the relationship between Pilots and CC (BTW I always thought CC where part of the flight crew team but there we go) in private you must out number them by at least 6 to 1. And there would be no outside points of view telling you its not normal and in some points totally wrong.

BTW when down route these CC who decide not to look on the pilots as "incharge" and even on the ground resposable for their safety, comfort and well being. I hope the Captian and FO returns the favour by not bothering their arse when things go tits up.

MJ

[RevMan2]

Isn't BA (or their employees) being a little precious about the whole deal?

Can someone give me a logical justification as to why the technical crew should have better rooms than the cabin crew?
And maybe someone can also debunk the urban myth that the captain enjoys separate transportation from the remainder of the technical crew who travel separately from the cabin crew.

Difficult to believe in this day and age.

Isn't it the airline's responsibility to ensure adequate accommodation for their crews, with clear standards that are integral to the contract with the hotel and are communicated to the crews?
And isn't the airline responsible for monitoring those standards, both by inspections and providing for a reporting mechanism.

Can't agree more with the chappy from Lufthansa Regional.

This all sounds pretty much driven by class thinking a la Titanic.....

[Human Factor]

Can someone give me a logical justification as to why the technical crew should have better rooms than the cabin crew?

It's what's been negotiated by the Trade Unions.

And maybe someone can also debunk the urban myth that the captain enjoys separate transportation from the remainder of the technical crew who travel separately from the cabin crew.

Consider it debunked.;)

[Carnage Matey!]

Can someone give me a logical justification as to why the technical crew should have better rooms than the cabin crew?

Because it's part of their remuneration package, just like the technical crew get better salaries and private health insurance than the cabin crew.