Aussie fire contracts

[Dynamic Component]

G'day to all.

Does anyone have any info on fire season in Australia for this year? Some people say it won't be a good (for helicopter operators that is) one and some people say it will be the same as last year.
Any comments???

And heard that the fire services are trying to get rid of the 206s/H500s.Is this true and will they still be using AS350s??

[Spaced]

From early reports the season will be the same as the last.
My opinion is different because so far it appears the el nino wont pay us a visit. I think this summer will be cooler with more rain.
Going off statistics a good fire season (for operators) is generally 1 in 4-5 years. Back to backs are really rare, infact apart from last year I cant think of two strong ones like that.
The operations this year will aparently different, 206s, and older 500s will be out for bucketing, but will be used for fire co-ordination.
This year there is also a federal aerial fire fighting administation which will have contracted aircraft for different regions of Aus.
To get a med contract your ship has to lift 2500kg of payload, and able to carry 10.
The heavys have to lift 5000kg min. (cant remember the pax No.s)
Cant recall the atittude towards the 350s, but I think they'll still be bucketing with their better payload. As far as Im aware anything that can lift 1000kg will still be considered eligable for bucket work.
Hope this helps a little, its only what I ve heard, not spoken to any RFS people about it.
Sure some one will disagree.

[EZY AIR]

well if we get another season like the last one 2002-2003, we will all be back to work in what ever they can get there hands on, im sure the fire departments RFS-DPI-NP- and so on would love big mobs of med-heavy choppers on bucketing work and bell206's and so on doing air attack and alike but here in ozz we dont have anought large chopper's to do the work even with all the imports over summer we will be a long way short, if B206's and alike are not doing bucket like we did in NSW we will be sitting back watching roam burn and playing with our fiddle's, also where do pilots get experiance on bucketing work if they dont get it in these smaller choppers, most of if not all the Australian pilots flying larger helicopters did their time bucketing with smaller choppers, i have heard that the Victorian contracts will just be rolled over this year, and thay have for a long time only bucket with med-large choppers, big shame as whos getting the practise who is the up and comming pilots, not victorians i can tell you if you come from over sea's you stand a good chance of getting work this year, if you can fly big!
PS wait and see if the fixed wing bommers get work. i have heard that thay are being droped after the last one went in near Ovens:oh: :{ :(

[Dynamic Component]

Catch 22 isint it??

Need 1500hrs PIC AND bucketing experience to fly, but then how do you get the experience if you can't do the work.

Only in aviation!!:)

[helmet fire]

The weather will depend on El Ninoas usual, and I am with Spaced - longer range forecasts dont think it will come again this year.

.As for 206s, etc, I hope that is a joke. Go back three years, and it was hard to get a AS350 or BK on the fire because they were "too expensive" (only now the fire agencies are understanding the cents per litre arguements - talking NSW here).
The 206 is very suited to bucketing, and in particular, EXCELLENT for mop up.
1. Very little downwash on a long line. Why go out in a BK117 and fan up more than you put out? Also, it doesnt strip tree branches off nor stir up ash and crap around the mop up crew you are working with.
2. The bucket is small enough to be easily manouevred by hand at the bottom of your line to the exact position the ground crew want.
3. There is not really enough water to hurt anyone when you are working in close to the mop up crew, and you dont have to worry about dropping uphill of the crew.
4. Because there is so much positioning and waiting during mop up, the bigger machines begin to lose their cost per litre advantages.
5. The bigger machines can be moved to active fire front where they excel.

......and probably more reasons. Someone please tell me they are NOT going to stop them bucketing!
:confused:

[Spaced]

It sounds to me as though the Fire departments are pretty serious about not using the smaller choppers this year. There have been quite a few purchases over the winter of 204s, 205s in anticipation of this. In fact every one seems to be talking about since the last fire season is whether or not they will go through with it, it will probably depend on the extent of the fires.
From what I have heard the main ones to be effected will be the 206 and the older 500s. At this stage it seems that any thing from the 206L up will be used to bucket.
One thing that may effect the amount of civilian choppers flying is the use of Mil Blackhawks. After their use to protect the pollies homes last year in Canberra there is talk of making a few available for fire work.
However there are also alot of people saying that there arent enough choppers in Aus to be that picky about which choppers they use and that once the season starts it will be bussiness as usual. Only time will tell I guess.
I totally agree with you DC I dont understand the restrictions they put on the poilts qualifications, how can you get the experience when they activly make it near impossible for you to achieve. I think the industry is lucky that so many involved really want to be here, I cant think of any other industry where I would be prepared to pay so much, to get so screwed around.

[clearance]

I don't really think that a 206/L, 500 is going to be more effective than a 205, 212, 412.

The Victorian's have lead the way for many years now with a dedicated service using the 205, 212, 412's.

I'm sure the 206's and the like have a purpose, however I don't believe that it should involve them having a bucket attached below.

[Dynamic Component]

clearance,
I'm guessing that you're a Bell boy as you don't mension any other makes of aircraft that would be suitable.:}
Does your "206's and the like " include AS350s with atleast 680ltr buckets?

[clearance]

DC,

Not at all, Sorry if I gave you that impression. I was just refuring to the types mentioned in the previous post.

Cheers.

[helmet fire]

clearance,
as per my previous post, I disagree. I think a 206 size acft with a long line is an excellent mop up acft, and I certainly think that it is more effective in this role than a 205/212/412, for all the reasons I mentioned previously. Especially more effective than belly tank equiped mediums.


:ok:

[John Eacott]

I agree with HF, the smaller buckets are excellent for mopping up, and should still have a place in the scheme of things. However, advances in bucket design may obviate this, eg the DUFAS with it's variable fill and multi drop. We used the DUFAS last season, and it was quite impressive both from the flying point of view, and for the troops on the ground. The ability to vary the fill according to aircraft weight and performance, then the multi drop capability which is ideal to deal with mopping up currently the domain of the 206. A long line is essential, even with 100' the BK's downwash is intrusive, but it may lead to less reliance on smaller machines.

Clearance, I'd modify your assertion that Victorian's have led the way. Media publicity aside, there are pro's and con's to the current reliance upon belly tank equipped mediums, to the exclusion of (almost) all else. Prime example would be last season's Alpine extravaganza, where support to Mt Hotham was extremely limited, and when it came as a bucket equipped 412, there were hours of support preparation required. The nearest water source (Swindler's Creek) at the bottom of the valley (c. 5200' amsl) would have been no problem for a bucket on a long line, but was no good for the 412. A buoywall had to be taken to Hotham, erected in the car park (at 6000' amsl), filled via the snowmaking pump system (major drain on resources at the resort to achieve), all for 3 hours bucketing. IMHO, a more flexible use of available assets may often produce a better result.

No argument that a belly tank is good over the urban areas, but the dogmatic approach leaves little room for variation. How often would a bucket on a medium or long line be able to access a water source denied to a the (short) schnorkel on a belly tank machine? Often enough for it to be an issue, in my experience, especially if the belly tank machine has to increase its transit distance and times as a result. For the bush and parks areas that comprise the major land mass of NSW and Victoria, the belly tank concept has severe limitations, especially in times of drought. I've lost track, are we 5 or 6 years into the current drought?

Just my two pennyworth ;)

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi John
Very good points but what depth of water does a belly tank machine need compared to a bucket, even a small one?
I know in Tassie a Bell 205 was picking up water from a shallow creek whereas my 350 with a bucket couldn't. I think it reasonable to have all types available.:O

[John Eacott]

Nigel,

Absolutely, but the new generation of buckets often have bottom fill capability. Bambi have the "Powerfill", and the DUFAS also fills from the bottom when needed, albeit relatively slowly.

No system that I know is perfect, but it often appears that the bucket has a lot more going for it (for mediums) than a belly tank, especially in Oz conditions.

[Dynamic Component]

John,
do you have any comments on the B3s operating with bellytanks in WA?

[Gibbo]

Hello all,

Whilst the post concentrates on bucketing or other water delivery methods, there has always been plenty of work for 206 and AS350 in the reconniassance role (Air Attack).

John and Helmet Fire (and other experienced fire fighters), you have a fair bit of time working with and without Air Attack support. What are your thoughts?

Gibbo

[John Eacott]

DC,

At least they're finally using helicopters after years of resistance! The application is new and previously unproven, but I'm sure that it will be a major asset to WA. Bear in mind the limitations of belly tanks as already mentioned ;)

Gibbo,

Are you still in Europe? AAS can be a terrific asset, usually able to direct the medium to best advantage, often hitting a key area not noticed by the bomber pilot. However, communication is often difficult, and it can be a real PITA to waste hours of effort because the AAS was just to overloaded trying to task too many assets.

Some of the most effective work is often done by a combination of a canny AAS, who will use a couple of mediums with a broad direction only, relying on the experience of the pilots to corral the head and limit the fire front. And the experienced pilot is the one who knows when to call in the AAS to take the blame :cool:

[Gibbo]

Still based in Athens John. Woke up this morning to a temp 30 celsius, will be a scorcher today!
Living in northern part of Athens, with a view over military airfield. Plenty of Fire Aviation in these parts, with Canadairs, Mils and the occaisional Skycrane coming and going. The Greeks throw plenty of assets at fires! Pity I am not a part of it; would be great to see how they do business.

Good view of AAS John, can be a bit hit and miss depending on the variables (Pilot, supervisor, task, assets, etc) Hope I wasn't a PITA ;)

Regards to all down under, fly safe.

Gibbo

[clearance]

HM - Sorry for the delay with my reply...
Quote "as per my previous post, I disagree. I think a 206 size acft with a long line is an excellent mop up acft" Unquote - I'm sure it is! However, does that mean a 412 is an excellent 'Air Attack' platform, probably is, but a bit expensive... All I'm saying is that each type has a 'place' within the operation depending on a variety of factors. I'm not saying they shouldn't be used, I'm saying that I can see why the 'powers to be' maybe reluctant to use them as in future (mentioned previously).


John Eacott...

You said - "Clearance, I'd modify your assertion that Victorian's have led the way. Media publicity aside, there are pro's and con's to the current reliance upon belly tank equipped mediums, to the exclusion of (almost) all else"

Now John, all I have said is that the Vic's have been operating (under contract, not adhoc) multi and medium single-eng fire fighting aircraft for many, many years. Unlike NSW, that just grab what ever they can at the time (I realise that things are changing, albeit slowly).

PS: It is good to see WA with a dedicated service, over the next few years when they get extra funding they 'will' up grade to twins, trust me :-)

;)

[Aladdinsane]

Have Lama's ever been used in Oz for fire seasons?

[crop duster]

How do yall rate the Air Tractor 802 or have been on a fire with one?
Barryb

[Captain Lai Hai]

To Alladinsane,
I think Pacific Helicopters PNG sent one down a few years ago but not sure if it was utilised.

[helmet fire]

clearance: I was addressing your comments that you thought there was no place for a 206 type acft with a bucket beneath it. I dont think anyone has argued that there should only be one type on the fire.

JE: I think the 117 on a 100ft line is still not as effective as the 206 for mop up due to the factors I mentioned. In particular, DUFAS or not, the bucket weight and inertia is too high to work in too close to ground crew without added risk, and given the general ignorance of these risks by the ground crews who are so job focussed, I think it is not ideal. Rotor downwash is far too harsh in the 117, even on the end of a 100 ft line. The cost per litre arguement goes out the door due to the generally low number of drops per hour during mop up.

I thoroughly agree with your comments that "no system is perfect". This flows into the thrust of my angle that a multi type response to a fire season offers the most flexibility and therefore the most appropriate and effective response. That always includes the airtractors, crop duster.

Here is how the fire day might go in an ideal world....

I reckon a fixed wing mapping acft is out and back by 1 hour prior to first light with all the mapping completed. The plan is done by first light and the 206s/500s launch with the ground section leaders for recon of their section of the fire, to be dropped into the same pad as the rest of their section who have arrived by medium (212/205/412). Then the hand over from the night crew who go out by medium. The 206s/500s start doing the air attack stuff, one dedicated to laying defensive retardent lines with the airtractors and other fixed wing. One identifies the area of concern (from the IR mapping) and begins employing the mediums and heavy helicopters by about 9.30 am. [I know that getting into it BEFORE the fire is out of control is a wee bit controversial!!:} :} and not so good for revenue - but hey, we can always cross our fingers and hope someone sayds the magic word: BACKBURN!]

The AAS matches assets avcailable to the task. He will call the belly tankers into the urban fringes and use the superior water drop rate of the bucket machines in the bush. The experienced AAS will state the intent of the plan to the mediums and heavies, then stay out of it unless needed to deconflict, send assets home, call more assets forward, and to modify the plan as the situation evolves. Another 206 is circling with the incident commander keeping tabs on developments. Another may be specifically positioned downwind of the fire with circling fixed wing bomber support to immediately call them in on dangerous spotovers. Other 206s are now starting to get their long lines on and head out to sections of the line secured by ground crews so they can do mop up, each working directly for the ground section leader with no AAS. More mediums are working directly for a ground leader who has begun a backburn, ensuring crew safety, reduce spots, and control burn rate if required.
And so the day goes.
A multi type approach will always offer the best coverage of the various scenarios a fire season presents.
Just my 200 bobs worth!!

:ok:

[MFK]

John E referred to a new fire attack system as DUFAS...it was the Downunder Fire Attack System but the Australian Remuda and US Erickson have formed a company called Erickson Downunder to market and manufacture the system. The system is now called the 'sling tank' to more correctly describe its operation. Just for info if anyone was wondering.:O

[Dynamic Component]

MFK,
Do you have any more info on this system eg. website?

[John Eacott]

Web site available here (http://www.ericksondownunder.com/)

[Huron Topp]

Hey John, check your PM's

[MFK]

Sorry DC I was thinking of posting the website but I wasn't sure how close to advertising that was. :rolleyes: I've seen it in action and IMHO it works well.

[John Eacott]

The "sling tank" was used during the Hydro Majestic fire in the Blue Mountains, not the best of shots here, but you can see the white tank suspended in the cables, which holds the foam concentrate.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Resize%20of%202_11452324.jpg

[Dynamic Component]

G'day to all,

I know I've asked the question before , but is there any info,news or are there any views out there on this years fire season?
Last year this time I knew allot more about the expected season than I do this year.

:}

[Captain Lai Hai]

I've heard John Mac. is a front runner for a contract and also may be looking at obtaining some more aircraft.
I believe some requirements include a lifting capability of around 9000 liters and carrying of 15-20 pax to be elligible.
Like I said I'm not 100% sure but Ned maybe able to shed a bit more light when he returns from the US.

I hope John is successful he deserves it for showing initiative and putting all his money on the line to purchase the 214B's and the 204's gives locals priority for employment if suitable and it would be nice if the Howard regime aknowledge that.




Fly safe

[John Eacott]

According to todays Sunday Age, here, (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/09/1060360549033.html) , Phil Koperburg is somewhat pessimistic.

Article says (for those who, like me, find the Age's web site slower than Charlie time on Ripple 3 at 0300),

"The next bushfire season in NSW could be worse than last year as much of the state was still dry from the drought, Rural Fire Service Commissioner Phil Koperberg said yesterday.

However, he said the Rural Fire Service and the National Parks and Wildlife Service were confident that their off-season strategic hazard reduction measures would prepare them for the worst.

NSW Premier Bob Carr and Emergency Services Minister Tony Kelly yesterday joined the fire chief at a burn-off at Galston Gorge, north of Sydney.

Mr Carr said such efforts by volunteer firefighters were vital if the state was to be prepared for another hot, dry summer.

"You can't have a scorched earth policy, fire is part of the Australian landscape," Mr Carr said. "What this is about is strategic intervention to minimise the risk to communities, conducted in a responsible way."

Commissioner Koperberg said 2 million hectares of land across NSW had been burned as a result of either wildfire or hazard reduction over the past 12 months. But a large part of the state was still susceptible to fire.

"Given the fact that 89 per cent of NSW has slipped back into drought and given the fact that meteorologists are talking about the possibility of a re-emerging El Nino effect, then we can't dismiss the possibility of either this drought extending or us slipping back into drought (completely)," Commissioner Koperberg said.

"If that's the case then much of NSW will continue to be exposed to probably marginally worse prospects for the fire season."

He said weather was the obvious factor in any fire season and it was hoped optimum conditions would continue for the Rural Fire Service to reduce fuel loads on 200,000 hectares before summer.

- AAP"

Chief Pilot briefings for the season start in two weeks :eek:

[Autorotate]

Latest I have heard is that AFAC (Federal guys who issued the contract invites) still havent got off their backsides and made decisions. All the operators I have spoken to have said they have had no responses from their attempts to get info from AFAC. Some of the contenders are as follows. These are only a few, and there are many more.

Scorpion - Running Mi-26s and Mi-8s.

Heli Aust - Bell 205s and also proposing Mi-17s.

Superior Helicopter - Up to Four Kmaxs.

Heli Resources/Heli Harvest - B3 Astar and Mi-8s.

Heliquip - Bell 212 and BO-105

Columbia Helicopters - Chinooks/107s

McDermotts - 214s and 204s (maybe 212s)

Erickson - Aircranes

Plus whatever other operators are going for. I know their intentions are good but AFAC are not doing themselves any favours by not responding to operators enquiries. Was talking to Johnny Mac the other day and he said it is impossible to get any info out of them, and he is one of the contenders. Doesnt instil any confidence in them does it. Maybe they are taking a leaf out of CASA's book.

John Eacott might have had some feedback.

I know they are trying to move away from the Bell 206/Hughes 500 series for waterbombing and sticking to the mediums for this, with the lights being used for air attack and related tasks.

I applaude their idea and cut them some slack for their first attempt but they need to get their act together otherwise the industry will give up on them, basically like CASA.

:E

Capt Lai Hai - Johnny for his belly tanks for the 214s certified recently and am going to have a look at them as soon as I get back from my trip to the US of A.

[Heliport]

from ABC News Water bombing helicopter dispatched to Canberra

At least one water bombing helicopter is to be based in Canberra as part of the new national firefighting strategy.

The helicopter will be on call over the summer for outbreaks in the ACT and surrounding New South Wales.

However, a local consortium says it is struggling to get any interest in its proposal to operate an additional fleet of water bombing planes.

Consortium spokesman Murray Masling says the national scheme is flawed.

"At this stage it appears that the national strategy as a whole is geared around helicopters alone and yet there are operations, a Victorian operation over many years, have had a great success with fixed wing and also South Australia and, as I've mentioned, Western Australia as well," he said.

Anyone know what type? Who's operating it?

[Autorotate]

Hope you dont bring Mikey Sherlock back as he spent most of the time at the Nickolls Helibase getting massages from the massuse who stopped by to lend a 'helping hand' to the poor tired helicopter pilots .

Have great incriminating photographic evidence of Mikey if you need it :ok:


:E

[Dynamic Component]

Does anybody know whats going on with the RFS. Only heard yesterday that they have had the Preseason pilots briefing.:\

What was said at the briefings???Normal Stuff?:}
What has happened to the EOI that was online??? :8

[John Eacott]

DC,

Briefings were last week, at Bankstown, Wagga & Armidale. It/they covered much of the same, plus a heads up on proposed changes from next year (eg hi vis MRB scheme will become mandatory).

[Dynamic Component]

Thanx for the info John. So hi viz blades not mandatory for this fireseason??:8

[John Eacott]

DC,

Never have been mandatory in NSW, just "preferred". Same as sirens and a few other minor bits. Also, the registration procedure will now only require notification of changes since last year, instead of having to provide a complete re write of previous submissions.

[Dynamic Component]

Surely the RFS must be smoking their sox if they think I'm going to put paint on my new blades:} Do they specify that hiviz blades have to have stripes on?

[John Eacott]

You bought new blades without a hi vis paint scheme? Most can be specified with an approved hi vis scheme, or can be re painted. What RFS require specifically, maybe you'd better ask them. Me, I've bought the 206 blades with the hi vis option, and painted the Kwaka blades iaw the KHI approved mod.

On an aside, ISTR that the military established that the best blade scheme for hi visibility is to have an odd blade, or create a flicker effect. Why is it that manufacturers seem locked into schemes that simply create red and white circles within the disc, as with tail rotors? I wanted to modify the Kwaka scheme, and was faced with having to get Reg 35 engineering approval, plus a letter from the Queen Mum to do so :*

[Dynamic Component]

Not new blades-new aircraft. Never thought I would need the hiviz option, so I saved a few pennies.

[griffo]

John,

Couldn't you just do a 337 minor mod form to change the paint scheme on the blades??

[John Eacott]

Griffo,

Can't find a smilie for LMAO. Reg 35 requirement in Aus, especially for Transport Class A, is a PITA of the first magnitude. Minimum cost would be >$A800 for the most simple of variations, expanding on an exponential scale. It was mooted to me that changing the paint scheme on the blades (ie putting red where the white was on opposite blades, and vice versa, to create a flickering effect) could unbalance the blades because of different paint weights, therefore would need extensive investigation :rolleyes:

So I've got the manufacturer's scheme, ineffective, but legal :mad:

[griffo]

Sheesh John, CASA have got you by the balls haven't they!!
Though about putting it on the NZ register, then doing a 337 to change the blade colour?? Sounds like it would be easier!! :\
Then all you'd need is a BK rated engineer with a kiwi licence (griffo dusts off ICAO type II with BK rating ;) )

[John Eacott]

To be fair, I don't blame CASA (at least not completely ;) ), but the delegation to Reg 35 approved persons, who can hold the operator to ransom with their interpretation of Regs, and the application thereof.

Plus the litigious nature of current times, whereby second guessing and backside covering has become an art form :rolleyes:

[bellsux]

Must be the magic potion that John Sherlock downs twice every day that keeps the massuse coming back, as age is definatley not on his side anymore... or the spell the witch doctor cast on him the last time he was in the PNG Southern Highlands!!!:D :ok:

[spinningwings]

****e John ...getting CASA approval would be a lot easier than getting a letter form the Queen Mum .... (now!)

:\ :ok:

[McShrek]

I seem to have dropped on the right area to find out about fire fighting. I find myself between employment opportunities here in the uk, at the end of what freelance season there is.
I would like to know how to get in to firefighting. (I can hear the chuckles already). Could anyone point me in the right direction, I have done some fire fighting in a 350, I can fill the bucket and I did empty it in generally the right area so I'm not a complete novice. I have an engineering background, general lifting work on the Squirrel,a strong desire to do dirty work ( not coal mining) and will travel anywhere. Can any one help, answers on a post card please. Cheers.

[Autorotate]

Seems like still no news from AFAC. General consensus in the industry is that they are just like other Federal agencies, totally incompetent.

Was talking to RFS the other day and they were saying that they were asked for all their input when the RFP was being put together but when it came to the decision making they were conveniently left out, even though they will have to end up funding it all.

Circus run by a pack of clowns.

Anyone have any latest info on it.

:E

P.S. John any news from down your way.

[John Eacott]

Only rumour that 've heard is that it isn't likely to go ahead: Federal funding is looking shakey :rolleyes:

Then again, with effectively only one week to prepare submissions, the industry would have a fairly good case to arc up about any decision, regardless of whether it's right or wrong :(

[mickinst]

A little off the subject....but John's comments on painting blades got me thinking?

Have a look at www.rwas.com.au for discussions on blade painting among other things.

[Dynamic Component]

Autorotate,

One word sums it all up-"CLUSTERF*#K"

[Autorotate]

Dynamic Component,

I just spoke to RFS and seems like some decisions have been made but that was all they would let on, because they are in the contract negotiation phase.

My personal opinion is that they need to get the Federal involvement out and then leave it up to the State agencies, who just happen to have been doing it for a long time, and have been doing it pretty well compared to the screwup that AFAC have so far done.

Anyway just my two cents worth.

:E

[captjohn1000]

Griffo,

How can you make the statement "It could be us, Ericksons, with the machine for Canberra" you are not at all involved in the contract signing, you are not an employee, you are a contractor. You would gain far more respect if you sat back for a while and engaged your brain before your mouth!!

[Dynamic Component]

I don't think any "statements"were made. Does the name pprune not have something to do with rumours??:hmm:

[GMB 666]

Rumour has it that Sikorsky have issued a memo changing the name of an item not commonly used or of much use on the S64 Skycrane.The common wingnut will now be known as a 'griffo'

[Autorotate]

Hey guys, how come this thread now starts with personal insults. Just because Griffo made a comment that some of you dont like, cant see the point in lowering standards and insulting him. It is after all a rumour forum.

Arent we all professionals.



:E

[Granny]

Griffos Mouth
CaptJohn is quite right this Griffo character does have a mouth problem with his comments you would think he was in the office in Medford, he proberly has never been to Medford.
He works as a "A white Sri-lakan" as we used to call them employed by Erickson Malaysia with no contract no benefits no nothing,
Griffo wait till the next down turn and you will be dropped like a hot spud
-Oh and if you are a still a little confused as to your status in the Erickson regeme call Ron Smith and I am sure he will let you know where you stand. :ok:

[Dynamic Component]

Lets get back to the origanal topic. The Ozzy fire season is right ontop of us and we have still not heard anything with regards to contracts etc.:confused:
Any NEW news out there?

[Autorotate]

Dynamic Component - Here is an edited version of an email sent to one of the head honchos at AFAC. Needless to say they are continuing with their SOP, and ignoring everyone.


--------------

I have sat back and watched the efforts of AFAC regarding the recent RFP for the upcoming fire season and have to say that never have I seen such a display of arrogance by a quasi Federal agency. I have not said anything until now, however the recent email sent from AFAC, saying that "if we havent contacted you, you havent won the contract" is the most arrogant attitude I have ever seen, and I have now decided that we are going to do an indepth article at the way you have handled this RFP.

It was AFAC that demanded operators, including many from overseas, submit completed proposals for the upcoming fire season, in a totally unrealistic time frame. Now, after those deadlines have come and gone, and gone, and gone, a lot of operators cant even get anyone at AFAC to return their telephone calls. I know for a fact that my own Australian Editor has been ignored when asking for comment.

You owe it to the operators who spent a lot of time and effort working on their proposals, a decent explanation as to why they weren't successful, if that was indeed the case.

You owe it to the industry to keep them up to date on what's going on. If you are having trouble getting the funding, then have the decency to explain it to those that deserve to have it explained.

I will tell you, catergorically, that the reputation AFAC has generated for itself leaves a heck of a lot to be desired, if the feedback I am getting from operators, both in and out of Australia, is anything to go by. You told me on the phone you are trying to make AFAC the Australian version of the NIFC in the United States. Well there is a big difference, they have the support of the industry, and unless you do some serious damage control immediately I would not like your chances of getting the industry's support come next fire season.

Anwyay the choice is yours, but we will be having a serious look at the way this has been handled and the arrogance shown by AFAC to operators, media and other interested parties.
----------

:E

[Dynamic Component]

Just found your post in the longest flight section. You know, the funny thing is I've been flying one of the 5 EC120s in Ozz recently.
Send me a PM if your interested.:E

[Anti-Torque]

I've heard that they are trying to phase out the ex military 204's as there have been some problems with the machines carrying non essential crew members. has anyone else heard this?

I was just reading about painting blades in hi-vis colours, and john was saying something about the paint affecting the balance of the blade. This can be easilly offset by not just painting the red lines on the blades, but also where the white is required, use white paint. We do this and have never had any problems with balancing at all.

[McShrek]

Sorry to bother you again, but you guys still seem to guys to ask about firefighting in Australia and I'm still interested in finding out how. Can any one point me in the right direction, any help gratefully recieved, cheers, McShrek

[captjohn1000]

Dynamic Component.
It wasn't the fact that Griffo said Ericksons could be working in Aussie, I know we are all wondering that. It was the fact that he said "It could be us" Who is "us", does Griffo own Ericksons?

[Dynamic Component]

captjohn1000,
I do apolagise for the confusion then.


Back to the origanal topic-Anything happening with the fires??Saw a helicopter working on the fires in Qld somewhere.:hmm:

[John Eacott]

Fires? Plenty of them, one 3000 hectare in SE Victoria, and numerous throughout NSW.

Meanwhile, we went skiing in another foot of fresh powder today.....:cool:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Ski/27th%20Sept/DP%2027th%20Sept%201.JPG

And Commercial Helicopters turned up to support the Magpies in this afternoon's Grand Final :D :D

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Ski/27th%20Sept/DP%2027th%20Sept%2005.JPG

[Autorotate]

Was over at the Wildland Fire Fighting Conference in Sydney last week and the general consensus was that the AFAC and NAFC involvement in this contracting is the biggest stuff up since Ben Hur.

Seems like they still havent said who has won the contracts and the fire season is already in full swing. Dont know if John Eacott or the others know whats going on but its a circus at the very least.

I do know that Superior Helicopter will have their first Kmax up and operational on the 1st of November and the second one a week later. Carson will have their two S-61s down there for the season on an ad hoc basis and I also heard that they did flight testing of their new belly tank for the S-61 and it went very well.

Any one else have any updates on the season so far.

:E

[John Eacott]

Maybe this DC10 (http://mywebpage.netscape.com/bouvierleroux/instant/photos.html) will save us all :rolleyes:

[moosp]

That's why we ask that you don't flush the dunnie below 10,000 ft. ;)

[belly tank]

Gibbo,

I sincerily beleive that the ideal platform to conduct air attack and incendary is via lights such as the 206 , ec 120's etc, they do not require a huge load carrying capability as it is often yourself , air attack supivisor and maybe a DFO so 3 at max but usually only 2 persons on board during recon, AA, mapping etc.

The lights are cost effective and well suited for the job, im quite happy lurking around up there in our 206, sure id like to do some bucketing but thats life, the boys in the 600+ litre capability are doing fine. Recently on a fire in late september this year in the hunter valley area, i was doing air attack for a 407, and a 206L4 bucketing and things went just fine.

Its not a case of the RFS getting rid of the lights, just a matter of better alocating resourses i think.

[Ascend Charlie]

It does seem, though, that Ericson has the RFS in their pockets - another operator offered Skycranes and Bell 214ST (carry 18 troops at 145 kt) at a MUCH CHEAPER rate than Ericson, but they have got the standard "If you ain't heard, you ain't in it" reply. No reason, no explanation, no sense. No wonder.:{

[Autorotate]

Well at least some info has come out.


PRESS RELEASE

McDermott Aviation
AUSTRALIAS LEADING HELICOPTER COMPANY

AFAC Aerial Fire-Fighting Contract

In a massive boost for an Australian owned and operated Helicopter Company, Queensland based, McDermott Aviation, has won the lion’s share of a fiercely contested, joint Australian Federal/State Government Aerial Fire-Fighting contract for the coming season in Australia, with options for the subsequent two seasons.
The contract, viewed by Fire Agencies nationwide as a major leap forward in Australian Wildfire management, was put out to International tender for the first ever time by Australian Government departments in June this year.

McDermott Aviation, whom have arguably been the most proactive Aerial Fire-Fighting Company over recent years in Australia, with self funded investing and administered professionalism, second to none in Australia, today emerged as a real “Home-Grown” initial-attack weapon, not only for the scorching Australian Bushfire seasons, but is furthermore being courted for alternate seasons in Europe, as well as North and South America.

The tender process saw some “Big Name” International, together with the cream of Australia’s Aviation Operators; offer an eclectic array of aerial possibilities for AFAC (Australian Fire Authorities Commission) to sift through.
The five contracts awarded to McDermott Aviation cover four States and Territories, incorporating, South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales and The Australian capital Territory.

The contracts come as a timely bonus for McDermott Aviation whom only this year, in conjunction with ISOLAIR Int. designed, financed and fitted a custom built belly tank aptly named “Tsunami” for the undercarriage of the Bell 214B’s that will be supplied for each of the five contracts.

During the most recent fire disaster in Sydney –NSW 2002/03, McDermott Aviation helicopters were deployed into some of the most severely effected areas, regularly flying 10 hour operational days per helicopter, with all scheduled and unscheduled maintenance carried out ‘after-hours’ to ensure all machines were available for tasking each morning. During one eight-week period McDermott’s helicopters flew 817 hours with three Bell 204’s, with only one unscheduled maintenance issue resulting in one aircraft being unavailable for one day! Last season, two of the 'heavy lift' (3000 litre) 15-passenger Bell 214B helicopters were introduced, proving extremely efficient and cost effective (with a third now in operation).The two 214B’s flew a total of 800 hours from October 2002 to February 2003 and provided a 99% availability call out rate.

The Bell 214B is largest single engine helicopters built and operated in the world. These are the largest Helicopters operated in Australia, by a private company and in fact the Chinook, operated by the RAAF is the only helicopter in Australia, capable of ‘out-lifting’ the Bell 214B.

For more information on McDermott Aviation and the AFAC contract please contact;


Scott Dillon
Sales and Marketing Director
McDermott Aviation
ph. 61 7 5447 6600 Cellphone (61) 0418 713 333
[email protected]

[Lowlevldevl]

Hey John.
Is that photo of the DC-10 fair dink?
Looks like the desert country around Mojave in California. I know they have a lot of surplus airliners there. I can just see some of the RFS air attack supervisors trying to fit THAT into the circuit.

Re: the discussion about light machines bucketting.

I fly a 1000 litre machine, but have a bit of time bucketting in the 206 as well.

What's the bigger waste of resources?
(a) A JetRanger trying to extinguish active metre high flames.
or
(b) A Huey dousing small but numerous smokers.

I firmly believe that a combination of bucket sizes working together provides the most efficient use of resources. It always seems to work best when a heavy, a medium and a light work the same fire and pick the targets that best suit their load. I think a policy which restricts light helicopters from bucketting would be a retrograde one

[PROPSWINGA]

Hate to put the mocca on things fellas, but history is a damned great teacher....................last year was an exception to the rule....this year it is expected there will be no more fires than is USUAL.....certainly nothing like last year or the year before and that should be the case for up to seven more years!:uhoh: Why then all the crap flying around that this year will be as big as last year....it's all to do with funding...."keep the momentum going while the dollar's flowing"....:E Any doubters....check back in 4 months and let's see who is right and who is wrong. If you spent a motza this year getting ready then my guess is the only fire you'll be attending is Your Firesale next season.:ok:

[Dynamic Component]

PROPSWINGA,

Would have to agree with you:hmm: It always sounds better if you say it is gona be a bad one and it aint, compared to saying it aint gona be a bad one and it is.:uhoh:
I think I just confused myself there:\

You know what I mean:ok:

It's not looking good for the aviation comunity sofar.

[burger]

I heard along the grape vine that JW will be importing 212s and crews from Canada for the upcomming NSW fires?

What is wrong in using existing companies already set up like the likes of Mcdermott (204s and 214s) years of experience or Helicopters Australia (B3s) .. already working in Brisbane/Perth again very experienced.

Why do we need to look overseas when the hardwear and competent cerws are here already??????????????????

[212bushman]

Yes Burger, I too am dissappionted with this descision. Do we need visitors to assist us in our backyard in their off season ! :* :confused:

[Reefdog]

you two blokes,, fair dinkcum..

Just perhaps the experience is not available within Oz..
How many 212 drivers do you know that work and live in Oz?
How many 212's are operating in Oz?

There you have it,,not many, actually bugger all.

How many Aussie pilots are there in Canada working either full time or during their fire season there, HEAPS.

I dont think for one minute JW would put on a canadian crew ,if there was an Aussie crew available.

So, quit ya whinging and get the experience that is required for the job.

It might help if you learn to spell also.

[Driptray]

Over the last few fire seasons there have been several US and Canadian machines and crews here in Oz. And don't forget Burger that one of the Oz operators you mentioned has imported machines/crews and sent machines to Canada and Europe, it has to work both ways. If you don't want overseas operators here then our blokes should not do the same thing.

[PO dust devil]

Greetings all,

I think you should grab experience from wherever you can get it in life and death situations. Beetling around in smoke is NO PLACE for getting experience. If overseas guys are current and expert why not grab the journeymen. The punters on the ground in their shorts and singlets holding the garden hoses around smouldering garden beds won't care one little bit.

Incidentally, AFAIK one of the companies earlier mentioned, isn't Australian owned and has a high proportion of overseas pilots on past and present employment lists anyway. Despite the name.

Maybe, someone may be able to enlighten the forum on the carding system used in Nth American fire fighting operations. Does this is the type of system ensure that you are trained up qualified to be chasing flames and smoke?

Cheers,

DD

[BigMike]

Yep, you cant have it both ways. Lots of Kiwi and Oz pilots in Canada each season. If you want a job flying a 212 dropping water, then get the experience. Go overseas if you have to.

[The Ozzie BOY]

OK So why dont we use FIREHAWKS in OZ ?

[John Eacott]

DD said:

Beetling around in smoke is NO PLACE for getting experience
Just out of curiosity, how else is one to get experience on fire operations?


Re the to and fro'ing about overseas operators in Oz: they are all "sponsored" by a local operator, who has to gain an AOC to allow the operation of an overseas registration. The argument about pilots working around the world isn't the issue: the ability of Oz aircraft and operators going to North America is next to impossible, on Oz registrations. John McD has N registrations, before that is raised.

Whilst overseas aircraft are not in any way unwelcome, it is certainly not a level playing field when it comes to the exchange of equipment :(

[oxi]

Give us a break, if you’ve got some decent twin time, bucket time, with long line it ain’t that hard…..


Hey, and its only a 212 after all...

[Auscan]

This subjest seems to pop up every couple of months and there are always some valid points raised. As an Australian working overseas I have to say that I think it is truly a global industry these days. Machines are being moved all over the world every day. With crew included. If there is a wholey Australian owned company that can support 212's for the entire year without going abroad then have a crack at the contracts. Dont sit there and moan about foriegners coming to take your jobs. As for machines going to North America from Australia I have to disagree with you John. There has been a number of Aus registered aircraft working in North America for a while now. On a seasonal basis also. Buzz avaition had a 205 in Hawaii last summer just to name one. I guess its just how hard you want to work to get the aircraft working abroard. On the North American forums there has been a lot of negative sentiments towards Aussies and Kiwis flying in North America. It is unfortunate to see the select few Australians sharing the same views about the reciprocal.

[John Eacott]

Auscan,

I'm interested in your comments; any other Oz registered helicopters that you know of working on ConUS? Since there is only one 205 registered in Australia (NNN, Helicorp), and one UH-1B, Commercial Helicopters, did Buzz use an Oz registered helicopter in Hawaii?

Again, I have no problem with offshore registered aircraft in Oz, on a level playing field. It just seems to slope uphill from this side, ISTM.

TIA ;)

[Steve76]

The company supplying the 212's from Canada is Wildcat Helicopters out of Kelowna, BC. A superb company run by Mike and Ian. Ian is from downunder and both guys are really good people. They are bringing Canadian pilots because they are very very good at what they do. WC chases fires in Canada all season and their expertise are second to none in the world.
The use of the longline for the bucket is redundant in this application since the contract with HeliAust calls for the belly tank. Lets not get into the belly tank VS bucket argument but the better solution is the bucket by a country mile. Especially under the guidance of these pilots.
WC is also to train a bunch of HeliAust pilots on the aircraft as well, but the primary pilots are going to be the Canuk guys or any Antipodeans known and trusted to WC.

Instead of complaining about the Canadians coming over, perhaps we should be happy that Aussie is getting the best to offer.

I would be more perturbed why the authorities are not allowing the buckets to be fitted and allowing these guys to do what they do best. Seems politics and impressions to the public overwelm commonsence yet again.

[helicoptersareus]

As far as I know firefighting is a specialist deal and all the agencies run on a competitive tender - if you don't cut the mustard in either price or capability you don't get a start.

[burger]

Hey Reefdog,

Pull your head in mate.
If you read the questions again it askes why is all. No punt at JW at all.

Are the 212s two pilot opps? It would be a great way to train new people

[Auscan]

I was always under the impression that Buzz's 205 was Australian registered. Unless it was not changed when it showed up from overseas. If that was the case then I apologise, but it is just another case of operators staying ahead of the curve to keep themselves in the game.

[Ned-Air2Air]

The Buzz machine working in Fiji at the moment is actually on the Kiwi register.

[Lowlevldevl]

Reefdog,
I'll bet there're more Aussie 212 pilots than you think. The NSCA had them. Hevilift has them. Lloyds has/had them. The 412 endorsement covers the 212 and there are plenty of 412 pilots in the country. Just because you don't know any doesn't mean they aren't there.
Steve76,
I will never accept that the Canadians have some super-human advantage over Australians that should give them the right to be at the very front of our fire-fighting efforts here. Thats just insulting to the majority of Australian pilots who love fire suppression work and are committed to doing a great job.
Yes there are a lot of Australian and New Zealand pilots working in Canada. But my impression is that that is only the case because there is a chronic shortage of pilots there particularly during the summer. Thats not the case here. Steve, weren't you canvassing pilots to go up last year because it looked as though machines would spend the summer on the ground if pilots couldn't be found for them?
I think Canadian pilots should get as much work as they can in their own country and I'm sure they do.
So far as Johnny Mac's 214 going to Canada last year. Yeah it did. And it was NOT permitted to be crewed by Australians.
I'm all for the exchange of pilots across the Pacific, in BOTH directions. But only to take up the slack, not the pick of the jobs.

[PO dust devil]

Maybe the place to get experience is on the ground in support of someone watching, waiting for a chance when it's not flat out or congested.........being in a cfa unit learning about fire behaviour and ground attack methods.......or two pilot ops (as mentioned by another) with a mentor/trainer.......or participating in a training school or carding sytem........or........if none of that appeals, spread your experience curve to everyone at the operation by finding someone desperate to have a machine flying, no adequate training, bumble around off freq., near missing everyone else, contra-direction, spraying water/chemical over the ground crews, leaving the bucket in the flame front, clunking stags, overtorqueing, how did I do that turns, getting really tired but pushing on selflessly, making cowboy hooting noises......etc etc.

(By the way I have done some of the above), but recommend that there are better ways than plunging in at the deep end, that someone may be able to elaborate on here.

In the interest of complete discussion - SMIB.

DD

[rotorboy]

fuel for the fire, posted on a US web page

CHC Helicopters (Australia) B212/B412 AERIAL FIREFIGHTING CAPTAINS CHC Helicopters (Australia) is a subsidiary of the largest international operator of civil helicopters and provides services throughout Australia and East Timor.We are currently seeking applications from experienced B412/ B212 Captains to support of the 05/06 Australian fire season. These are casual employment positions and will be based in Victoria, Australia for the durations of the fire season, (approx 14 weeks.) Commencing November 2005The minimum criteria for these positions are listed below: (Applicants not meeting these requirements will not be considered) · Australian CPL (H)· 2000 total helicopter hours· 1000 hours PIC · 250 hours PIC on Type · Considerable aerial fire fighting experience· Rappelling experience If you have experience in aerial firefighting and are looking for a change in your environment then these positions could be for you. Further enquires should be directed to:Scott Templeton, Acting Resource Manager, Telephone: 61 8 8372 7726email; [email protected] by email to [email protected] CHC Helicopters (Australia) is an Equal Opportunity Employer

[Auscan]

Well there you go fella's. The door is open. Anyone that fits the bill can jump on board. Will anyone be registering their disapproval with CHC having fire contracts? Hopefully not.

[chook13!]

ref out of country operators for the fire seasons. the question needs to be asked how come Mcdermotts squeals like a stuck pig when HA gets a fire contract in qld but uses foreign registered machines in this country himself (therefore the money goes out of the country unlike at Helicopters Aus where the pilots and machines are aus reg), and doesn't seem to raise much of a protest when the big fella down the road brings in Canadian machines and pilots. MMMMMMMMM how does that work hey!

why not just leave the pilots to do their thing without campaigns that ultimately just degrade the whole industry and create a public perception (and yes its been brought into the public arena with radio interviews and the like by MCd), that theres something strange afoot when really the precedent was set years ago by that particular operator (and others) who used foregn reg and OWNED machines. some people should just pull their heads in ..have a nice day:ok:

[mustering guru]

So whats Heli corp got this year anyone know?

[MPT]

G'day mg,

In Victoria they've got "Elvis" and their B206L at Essendon and the B205 at Colac I believe.

Cheers,

MPT

[Ned-Air2Air]

Chook - Think you are off on a tanget there. Just because the helo is N registered doesnt mean the money goes offshore.

Actually all the 214s are owned by McDermott, crewed by Aussies and the money stays in Australia.

And for the record Helicopters Australia is an Aussie registered company but is actually owned by Helicopters NZ Ltd, therefore if you want to be accurate you will find that their profits DO go overseas, back to Head Office in Nelson, New Zealand.

[bell hater]

Helicopters Australia is an Aussie registered company but is actually owned by Helicopters NZ Ltd, therefore if you want to be accurate you will find that their profits DO go overseas, back to Head Office in Nelson, New Zealand.

With all those profits you think that they could pay there pilots a little better?

[John Eacott]

Coulson's S61 arrived at Essendon Airport (Melbourne) this morning: in the pouring rain, of course :p Erickson's machine arrived last weekend, and is parked outside Helicorp's hangar.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Coulson%20S61.jpg

[Sir HC]

Okay, here's a hypothetical question. Say the fire season in Australia is non-existant this year and all contracted machines sit on the ground, which is not all that unlikely. How much money would leave the country? Are there Canadian pilots here on the ground at the moment getting a standby rate and if so, will they continue to sit around regardless? Just curious to see where my tax dollars are headed. Cheers.

[catseye]

Sir HC

have been told .....

the Feds pay the standing charges and states pay operating.


The Eye

[NedRex]

This was posted on the ABC News website today.

Quote ..
The Federal Government has announced an extra $2.5 million to help bring a third Elvis-type helicopter to Australia to help fight bushfires this summer.

The National Aerial Fire Fighting Centre already receives money from federal, state and territory governments to bring two other similar aircraft from the United States each summer.

The Minister for Local Government, Jim Lloyd, says the federal contribution is just over $5 million.

He says the third helicopter could be based in Canberra.

"We currently have two of those Erickson sky cranes on the way to Australia, one is going to be flown over from the US, the other one is on a ship," Mr Lloyd said.

"Those two are normally based in Melbourne and one in Sydney. This additional funding will allow the third one to be based possibly in Canberra, but that's a matter for the Aerial Fire Fighting Centre."

[Ding Dong]

I am not that great on economics, or government spending, but why doesn't the australian govenrment actually purchase one or two skycrane helicopters or tender a private contract instead of importing, leasing, then sending them back on a ship or even by air freight (which they have done in the past) every fire season at a massive cost ..... .

Any ideas on why they do this ???

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :} :bored: :sad: :ooh: :confused:

[BigKahuna]

It is a matter of availability of airframes...... there are not many aircranes around and Ericson has all the rites to the drawings from Sikorsky.

You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.

[helmet fire]

Maybe it is the bit about economics?

What I find really intresting is the minister who just spent over $5 million and cannot even name the aircraft properly. makes you wonder......
and did he get the company right this time? Did Erikson get the show, or Heavy Lift?

[Ascend Charlie]

Which bit didn't you like, HF? The EriCkson bit, or the Air/Sky crane bit?

Sydney Helicopters is bringing out a Sikorsky Sky Crane, based at Parramatta, to help out the Erickson Air Cranes.

[UWOT]

Wonderful piece of equipment, spent two very happy years with one in Europe. Raced many a Canadair up and down a mountain and always won.

[Squeaks]

I am not that great on economics, or government spending, but why doesn't the australian govenrment actually purchase one or two skycrane helicopters or tender a private contract instead of importing, leasing, then sending them back on a ship or even by air freight (which they have done in the past) every fire season at a massive cost ..... .

Rumour has it that the air freight for Rocky + Elvis II will be about $600k (real $$$$), along with the return freight and Elvis' shipping, that's a cool $A1 million :eek:

What a shame some of that couldn't be spent on the local operators, who aren't allowed to reciprocate and operate in the USA during their fire season.

Free Trade Agreement, anyone :ugh:

[topendtorque]

Free Trade Agreement, anyone :ugh:

fuel on the fire with that statement to any primary producer, trying to compete with the good-ol-USA or any EU country where they get paid to plough it all back in.

and now there's a new minister to head it up -****** warren, God help us.
At least the aviation portfolio should improve for the first time in a long while with minister Vaile.

The excess loot of course comes from the federal GST (VAT) hand-out which in the last few months has transformed nearly every state govt from paupers to glad handing money bags.
Most of that GST loot is not tied to anything, so look forward to more fat cats, (political appointees) who will help the re-election pursuits of the useless labor party in each state, good fire funding but no preventitive burning ( too risky politically) all at the expense of real infrastructure spending.

yardy yah, and further down the bloody gurgler we go!!

[Ding Dong]

It is a matter of availability of airframes...... there are not many aircranes around and Ericson has all the rites to the drawings from Sikorsky.

You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.


Ah, BigKahuna, thats what i like ... an answer. I did not know that the above was the case .. makes sense .. it all comes down to $$ in the end !

:ok:

[robsrich]

An interesting news item in The Australian newspaper, Friday 27 October 2006. What do you think about this debate? What is the HAA's role in this issue?

Article reads:

Imports get a bucketing
By Steve Creedy

Emergencies

As the nation braces for a horror bushfire season, fire services have been accused of importing helicopters while local operators send their machines offshore to find enough work to survive.

The Helicopter Association of Australasia is angry that $800,000 is being spent to import just one helicopter for the NSW Fire Service, and says the situation is similar in other states.

It claims that while this is happening, Australian helicopter operators are sending their expertise offshore to find work to survive.

And it says there needs to be more consultation between the industry and firefighting services over a range of issues.

“Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires,'' said HAA president Rosemarie McRae. “There are Australian operators with every state and territory with helicopters capable of fighting the fires. So why are we bringing in foreign aircraft and leaving ours sitting on the ground?”
'
Ms McRae said it was critical that aerial firefighters were familiar with Australian rules and regulations. She said the nation had a highly trained and capable industry able to provide big fire-attack helicopters with similar capabilities to the Elvis air-cranes.

The NSW Rural Fire Service did not consult with the industry and a consultative committee needed to be set up to remedy the problem. “What about the economic ramifications to the Australian industry, including pilots, engineers, ground and air crew?”' she said.

NSW Rural Fire Service spokesman Cameron Wade said federal authorities, and not the RFS, handled contracts for overseas machines. “It's nothing to do with us” Mr Wade said. “We're actually given the aircraft we're told we're to have.”

National Aerial Firefighting Centre manager Richard Alder denied claims there were Australian machines that could lift as much water as an air-crane. The NAFC is responsible for letting contracts for bigger helicopters and, where necessary, importing them.

Mr Alder said Australian companies were involved in importing helicopters and the HAA had made no attempt to contact his organisation. He said the NAFC put its contracts out for public tender and picked the solution that offered the best value for money.

End:

[dragonsfly]

If the President of the HAA thinks that there are helicopters in this country that are capable of doing what the aircranes can do, or even close to doing what they can do then she does not deserve to be in that position.
We do not have those kind of aircraft because it is impossible to support them on a year round basis. There is little application for those helicopters in this country except during the fire season.
I gather she is acting as a voice on behalf of other operators that do not like seeing international competition and that is understandable but what is the solution? Does anyone really think that an Australian operator is going to invest in a heavy lift helicopter and have it sit around for 6 months gathering dust in the hope that the next fire season will be a big one????
Having said that, the government has done so little to encourage local operators to invest in big aircraft which is probably the real injustice here because our pilots are bloody good at fighting fires and they happen just about every year. But will someone tell our Rosemarie to get her head out of the sand and take a proper look at the local industry and to stop saying things like "Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires", because it does little for her credibility in that position. We may be good at it with what we have, but we don't have much.
DF

[imabell]

there are three 214b's just up the road from me. i think they are heavy.

they are set up with the most modern fire fighting equipment, are far more efficient than the cranes and are available year round at much less cost to the taxpayer.

the cranes are much overrated but they make good news stories to make the public feel good.

[dragonsfly]

It's a good point point you make about the cranes being great news stories and I would bet that there is a lot more to that than we may ever know but it is a big country and 3 214's do not make a big impression in the overall scheme of things.
And they are not really heavies either mate, they are just mediums and a good example of the extent of our "heavy" capabilities.
DF

[Ned-Air2Air]

because it does little for her credibility in that position

Didnt think she had any.

The only reason she is getting on her soapbox is to justify that $80k a year salary that she pays herself. Not to mention the office on the Gold Coast that they cant afford. They get rid of anyone who starts to ask questions - ask Lynton.

With regards to fire fighting helos, apart from the 214s that McDermotts have and the other Hueys around I dont think Australia has the capability to compete with anything in the Crane league.

[jon s gull]

A few questions for those in the field.

What is the actual lifting capacity of the skycrane on an ISA + 20 day

How many crew are required to keep the ac airborne

what are the costs to Aus / hr flown on fires

is this an efficient use of the available $


Are the skycranes op's compatible with other Australian ac in the same airspace.

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

Medium or heavy, the 214b is still a far more efficient and economical firefighter than the skycrane.

At 92 cents per litre of water delivered over the fire the skycrane is 30 percent dearer than the 214.

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

Your right Neddy old boy.

The HAA purge will be complete when the constitution is rewritten so Captain Rosemary can be dictator for life. She is the first president to take money.

The $80.000 per year for rosie and whoever else is being paid should empty the coffers of the HAA in three years. Where to then?????:mad: :mad: :D

[Twin Head]

For the 1 million Dollars to get the sky crane here and back before a rotor blade is turned also adds to the cost. The skycrane is still the local aussie hero.

It is upsetting for the local operators when overseas 212's arrive for the summer, why does casa allow the use of local aoc's to overseas companys. They frown at locals using other aoc's, but a blind eye to overseas is acceptable. :ugh: :ooh:

Yes the price is good also from overseas company's, as they are already operating max hours in their summer, so the company comes to oz for a working holiday:ugh: :ugh:

TH

[212bushman]

Twin Head, how true you speak ! ;)

[Squeaks]

Regardless of the personal attacks, Rosemary is on the right track, just hasn't thought it through, IMHO.

Why on earth have we a Free Trade Agreement with the USA, when they won't let our aircraft operate there, yet we let them come over here? Local operators are at the rag end of any handouts from the Feds, and the treatment of John McD is shocking, considering the investment that he has made.

ISTR that his 214B's carry about 2700lt, not "heavy" against the Aircrane, but then how often do they lift the advertised 9000lt? Most seasons they average 7000lt a drop (even less with "Rocky"), so a couple of 214B's aren't far behind, and as already stated they're about 30% cheaper per litre on the flames!!

Getting to the article, why weren't McD's given a guernsey instead of $US5-600k squandered on airfreight charges to bring in 2 x Aircranes? Why don't our Fire Authorities (Fed and State) support local industry, and insist on our (supposed) allies and co signatories to the FTA to allow our machines over to the USA, thus giving half a chance of a return on investment to allow a home grown industry?

Rant over ;)

[dragonsfly]

I gather then that someone in a position of power is playing a deadly game of politics and using Australian Operators as pawns.
Anyone have any idea as to who this may be and why? If the numbers do not add up both financially and operationally with imported aircraft, yet it is still happening, then whoever has a beef against the local industry, or maybe just a local operator, really needs to explain their decision for better or for worse.
DF

[EBCAU]

It may be that the Skycrane costs more per litre to deliver water to the fire but is there a factor that the larger the volume dumped in one hit the greater the efficiency?
I'm not in the game myself, but I have heard that with greater volumne the extinguishing factor increases dramatically. Can anybody confirm or deny this? Is this is just another marketing ploy that removes the smaller machines from the resource pool so that it becomes the domain of the big players?
If any of you can provide the formula that they use to derive this, if it is true, I'd be interested to hear it.

[jon s gull]

I would have thought that as evaporation is a function of temp/humidity and time that the impotant thing is to get the required amount of water in a given time. To acheive this one could use one large bucket or a chain of smaller buckets. the advantage of the smaller buckets being that any one does not significantly reduce the effort if it is unavailable, and there is a contiuous stream of water arriving

.When say attacking a flame front, an aproach can be set up with a chain of aircraft arriving sequentially allowing a continuous
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.

One aircraft, of any capacity cannot make such an effort.

[Bushfire]

In the State Aircraft Unit (Victoria) 2004-2005 annual report it states

"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"

"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fire the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threating situations"

[Auscan]

Lets remember one thing ladies and gentlemen. This was an open tender for any AUSTRALIAN company to bid. All of the contracts were awarded to Australian companies. Now if that compny does not have the funds and/or the resoureces to support such aircraft then it is only logical that they go abroard. The Australian market cannot sustain these aircraft outside of the fire season. Be it Skycrane, S61 or Bell 212 there just isnt the work for them. This argument seems to surface every year and we always hear about the poor operators who cant get a start because of these foreign devils. Well you have to be in it to win it. So bid the contract and then buy the aircraft. Not going to happen. At least some of these companies are looking to use local pilots/engineers to help crew the machines. I am sure these guys would not have such exposure if the aircraft were not here. Just my 2 cents.

[Twin Head]

[quote] When say attacking a flame front, an aproach can be set up with a chain of aircraft arriving sequentially allowing a continuous
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.

Geday, Steve Bracks here,:ugh: i am pleased to announce our new fleet of Skycranes to the Victorian drought affected state. Stuff helping the farmers, by spending only a little bit extra, i can give the victorian state complete coverage with skycranes. The fires wont stand a chance if we hit them continuosly in formation. It will be a fabulous show.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Could you imagine the DSE running around trying to refuel all these skycranes at the same time.:mad:

Unfortunately the government is winning voting points by bringing in the extra skycranes. It is a shame to see the 214's doing nothing when the helicopters that are on contract around oz are of smaller capacity.:confused:

Come on Rosemary, we thank you for sticking your head up, but it is a mighty big task to bite off in order to support our home grown employment opportunities. Good Luck!:D

I hear taht in the USA, ems operators are fitiing belly tanks to their new AW139,s when the fires are in their local shires. F:mad: Australia is so far behind the times:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Bushfire]

In the State Aircraft Unit (Victoria) Annual Report 2004-2005 it states

"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"

"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fires the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threatening situations"

[Squeaks]

Lets remember one thing ladies and gentlemen. This was an open tender for any AUSTRALIAN company to bid. All of the contracts were awarded to Australian companies. Now if that compny does not have the funds and/or the resoureces to support such aircraft then it is only logical that they go abroard. The Australian market cannot sustain these aircraft outside of the fire season. Be it Skycrane, S61 or Bell 212 there just isnt the work for them. This argument seems to surface every year and we always hear about the poor operators who cant get a start because of these foreign devils. Well you have to be in it to win it. So bid the contract and then buy the aircraft. Not going to happen. At least some of these companies are looking to use local pilots/engineers to help crew the machines. I am sure these guys would not have such exposure if the aircraft were not here. Just my 2 cents.

Auscan,

Read my previous post: if local (Australian) operators cannot work their machines overseas outside the local fire season, what point is there in making an investment in mediums/heavies? Despite the FTA, the USA/FAA/Forestry will not allow Australian operators to take machines into the USA. But we roll over and let them come here, even if it is under the guise of a local operator who has hooked up with a North American operator to give them some of our money to take home to subsidise their operation :=

And to overlook the main Oz operator who has made such an investment (Johnnie Mac) is just criminal, IMHO :yuk:

[Auscan]

Well I can honestly say that I am not too sure about the FAA regs on Australian aircraft fighting fire in the states, but I do know there are a lot of other countries out there that have fires in the Australian winter. Lets not forget that McDermott had an aircraft fighting fire in Canada 2 years ago. Just about all of the EU will allow foreign aircraft in to fight fire. I know of at least 4 countries ( France, Spain, Portugal, Greece) that contract mediums and heavies each year from abroad. So why doesnt an Australian company go after these contracts. They are there for everyone. I think that while these companies are based in North America, they are truly a global operation. And whats to stop us from doing that????

[gasgen]

John Mac has been sending his a/c overseas for years now. Firefighting in spain portugal and more recently lifting work in PNG.

Hevi lift PNG have been coming to Australia since 1993 to fight fires.

As mentioned previously these contracts were awarded thru a public tender.

There is no way that an operator would stay in business if they were to go and buy or lease 3 212's for the fire season. Having these types of machines sitting around for six to nine months doing nothing is very expensive. Hevi lift tried it with 1 212 in Sydney with dissapointing results.....even if the peanut they had managing the show was not there, it would hav been an unsustainable operation.

Skycranes are expensive, but they are an awsome firefighting tool in the right operators hands. I do believe the money would be better spent on a fleet of mediums giving more coverage, but it would only take one house to be burnt down in sydneys northern suburbs, and the people who sent elvis home will have committed political suicide.

[212bushman]

For the record, when Hevi Lift (PNG) were in Australia, they were nearly always "VH" registed 212's , not "P2'd". ;)

[VT-51_Razor]

Hello all, new here. A very enlightening thread for sure.

"Read my previous post: if local (Australian) operators cannot work their machines overseas outside the local fire season, what point is there in making an investment in mediums/heavies? Despite the FTA, the USA/FAA/Forestry will not allow Australian operators to take machines into the USA. But we roll over and let them come here, even if it is under the guise of a local operator who has hooked up with a North American operator to give them some of our money to take home to subsidise their operation"

Squeaks, what makes you so sure that foreign operators can't work here in the 'States? I have come across many, many Canadian and Mexican registered aircraft on fires over here. Everything from 206's to Cranes. I'm quite sure that you are badly mistaken on this point. The foreign operators are working through an AOC holder here in the US, just as the foregin registered aircraft in OZ are working through local AOC's.

I think it just boils down to money. It's bloody expensive to move aircraft around the world, and if you're trying to find work for a small, or medium machine overseas, it's more likely you could lease a local one for a lot less than the transportation costs of getting your own over there (where ever that might be). The Cranes, on the other hand, are quite unique, and are in demand all over the world. If there were an Australian operator with a couple of them on their books, there is no doubt that they would be gainfully employed year around.

Someone else mentioned that Erickson wasn't interested in selling a couple of their machines to Australian operators or the Gov't. To that I say, take a look at what they did with the Italian Corpo Forestale, and the Korean Forestry Service. Four F models to Italy, and 2 (so far) to Korea.

Cheers!

[Chairmanofthebored]

Guys, sorry this question is a lot off track but I wondered if anyone involved in this chat knows of employers looking for a driver for the season.
I've got 5000hrs, multi time, done fires in the US, PNG time, longline exp VFR and IFR and plenty of worthy referee's. Ive been touring out of OZ and might be looking to stay out of 3rd world countries for a while. I just don't know who to e-mail regarding the fire season back home.
I really appreciate any help here.

[topendtorque]

For the record, when Hevi Lift (PNG) were in Australia, they were nearly always "VH" registed 212's , not "P2'd". ;)

That may well have something to do with Import duty (PNG not OZ).

there used often be a couple of Mil's parked in Cairns during off peak PNG times for the same reason. - um fifteen years ago?????-

[rotorboy]

This is pretty funny thread. Obviously there are a few people who havent fought a lot of fire. A 214 can not even come close to keeping up with or being as productive as a crane ... It certianly has its palce, but the two can not be fairly compared.

Erikson will sell anyone a crane, the questions is do you have the money.

Now I may be mistaken, but MacDermots 214B was operating in Canada and the US ( didnt it have a N # on it for a while!). I was also under the impression that he had beed sending his gear around the world

Many of the Heavy's and Mediums from North America, are on CWN contracts. I know several operators that have lost their shirt sending a/c to OZ in the hopes of making some coin. Just remember Reward is often found from taking a risk. Sending A/C to the other side of the world hoping to be pciked up on fire is a risk.

I have heard that besides the crane's, OZ has activated the CWN contrats and requested metal from this side of the pond. I believe there is a 61 and a Kmax already there. Both on Call When Needed contracts.

Isnt this a good deal for the people of OZ. The operator spends his money getting the a/c, crew and support gear over and sits on his dime until its needed ( when all the OZ opertors are already working)?

Sounds to me like there are some people who arent on fire contracts and a little envious.

RB:ok:

[jon s gull]

I don't believe the discussion is about whether a 214 or any other chopper can out lift a sky crane, the bottom line is how much water can we move for our dollar . And if that means several smaller helicopters with the bonus of more flexability then why send our money overseas.

[Sir HC]

There was an interesting story on Landline the other day about the history of bushfires in OZ. Those interested in some of the politics behind it all might want to check it out. As for the Skycranes, I think they are a great machine but as Jon S G said, you need to consider water delivered vs cost and the 214 or any medium for that matter is always going to come up trumps. In saying that, Australia is under equipped at times and we simply need to get outside help in to keep up but there is no way we should have foreign machines in the air when we have Australian machines on the gound. As for Johnny Mac, a little birdie told me that his tendering process has left a little to be desired in the last few years. It would be a shame to have such great and capable machinery and crews ready to go yet not get the contract simply due something so simple like that.
For those interested, here is the link to the landline story from last Sunday. http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s1774389.htm

[rotorboy]

You guys are crazy. There is no way a medium is more cost effetive than a heavy. Sure if you look at the per litre, but its apple and oranges . 3 mediums still cant keey up with the work of one heavy on a rolling IA. They all have there place. But the when you look at endurace and the amount of water you can get on a fire in the shortest period of time , the heavy "trumps" it. Fighting fire isnt strictly about cost effectiveness, its about how effective you are with the tools you have. Who cares if it is cheaper, if you can never catch the fire and you burn homes. I think your tax payers would agree.


Squirt gun vs the fire hose. You can throw water ll day with the medium and never get the same production or accomplish as much as you can with a crane, 61 or a 234.

You dont go to war with just one weapon.
John S or Sir HC ever flown fire? Ever flown fire in medium or worked side by side of a heavy?

Just curious

RB

[smokey2]

Yesterday a Ukranian AN-124 landed at Canberra airport with 2 Erickson sky cranes for the fire season.
Locals are worried this is the start of late night freighter operations at the airport with its new longer runway.
As a firey on the ground the sight of one of those large orange things is often a welcome sight.

[jon s gull]

limited fixed wing fire work, I work in the industry and am interested in more, also fought fires from the ground for several years. I fail to see how one ac dumping 7000 lt as opposed to three ac dumping 9000 lt in the same time frame is a compromise.

[Twin Head]

Could it be that 2 engines are better than 1

212 versus 214b's

TH

[Steve76]

Can anyone post a link defining the requirements for the HUET and CRM for the 2006 season?
I have done HUET plenty before but am not sure of the currency requirement.

Thanks

[M18bloke]

well if we get another season like the last one 2002-2003, we will all be back to work in what ever they can get there hands on.......... but here in ozz we dont have anought large chopper's to do the work even with all the imports over summer we will be a long way short, if B206's and alike are not doing bucket like we did in NSW we will be sitting back watching roam burn and playing with our fiddle's......
PS wait and see if the fixed wing bommers get work. i have heard that thay are being droped after the last one went in near Ovens:oh: :{ :(


Stick to flight instruction ezy air, you are no good at aerial firefighting industry predictions or spelling.

[eagle 86]

I'm glad the government's literacy programs are working.
GAGS
E86

[Cyclic Hotline]

Could it be that 2 engines are better than 1

212 versus 214b's



Comparing the performance of a 212 to a 214B is like comparing the 214 to the Crane, they are wholly different aircraft and performers.

A loaded, straight, 212 on one engine has all the performance of the 214 on none!

Two engines certainly may be better than one for many applications and environments, but they don't translate into a guarantee of performance, or safety.

[Gary Smith]

Cyclic Hotline

I think Twin Head was referring to which aircraft was preferred by the Government for our bush fires. ie Aussie owned 214b's:) or imported 212's.:ugh:

[Ned-Air2Air]

I was under the impression, after talking to RFS that for most of their work it is a requirement to have a twin, hence why Heli Aust teamed up and bought in the Wildcat machines.

Can anyone clarify this further.

[ConwayB]

Hello Steve 76 and Ned-Air To Air.

Ned, the intent is for more powerful machines and preference is for twins... however that does not preclude singles provided they can maintain the required HOGE margins that are being considered. This requirement is under development.

Steve 76, I sent you an email re RFS CRM requirements. But I have posted the annex to their RFT which stipulates PIC's requirements here:

www.rhoaviation.com.au

and go to the HUET or CRM pages.

Hope this helps.
Conway

[Steve76]

Thanks ConwayB, much appreciated.