Pilot Career - To be or not to be...

[99Luftballons]

Aloha

A bit of background: I am 32 and am just about to embark on my PPL in the UK. Having always dreamed of flying and constantly looking up into the sky (every minute in London), I am considering doing a modular fATPL as soon as possible and hoping to get a jet job by the end of it for a couple of years in Europe. Once the 1,500 hours have been completed, I am planning on moving to Oz (along with the wife) as the UK just does not have the 'quality of life.'

As most of you know, reading Pprune can easily lead to suicidal tendencies and job prospects in Oz seem even tougher than in Europe. Even if flying is your passion, is it worth the pain and minimum of GBP30,000 initial outlay (plus perhaps a further £27k for B737 type with line training) to become a pilot? Or do you continue something that pays well enough for a person to live comfortably and fly on the weekends? (i.e. even buy a plane {and put down a deposit on a house} instead of forking the money out on the training alone).

I would appreciate hearing from those who have sweated it out and believe it is totally worth the sacrifice! I can't imagine anything better than sitting at the controls of a jet having the best view in the world, however, is it worth to pay the price? Not just from the money aspect, but the whole package/lifestyle. There seem to be a lot of pilots out there that constantly moan about their jobs. It would be great to hear from those 'happy' pilots too.

Many thanks in advance!

[Wizofoz]

Hi 99,

My usual advice is that if you are deciding between flying and another career, chose the other one!! If you don't have anything else you might want to do- welcome aboard!!

It certainly would be a perfectly viable alternative to stick at what you're doing, get your PPL, then buy a share in a Pitts or a glider and embark on a very enjoyable and satisfying path as a part-time flyer.

If, however, you are set on flying as a career, there are a couple of holes in your plan.

Firstly, £30 000 is probably NOT going to get you into a jet. These days, on top of your frozen ATPL, you need either to do a few years/000 hrs in a secondary type of flying (regional turbo-prop, freight, air taxi etc) to get on as a DEP, or else sign up for one of the self-sponsored type schemes to get a type rating and employment with a European jet operator.

After that NO amount of FO time is going to get you a job with a an Australian Jet operator. They have all the guys clocking up thousands of hours command in 402s/Metros/Saabs etc. to choose from. If you are coming to Aus, either come with a good amount of Command time (e.g, STAY with the Air taxi or freight company until you've had a command for a while) or come with the expectation of spending a good amount of time in the Bush (andbe warned, the Ozzy outback can be a VERY hard place for women to live, so have an honest appraisal of how your wife will cope.)

As an idea, could you follow your current professtion in Australia? Alternatley, could you save sufficiently to move and train full time in Aus? It will be a MUCH cheaper exersize to get a CPL with ATPL theory in Australia, you'll have the relevant Australian licenses, and have a chance to make contacts and get a feel for the industry there. Plus you'll have a chance to do the Ozzy bush thing which, whilst challenging, has left all of us who've done it with memories and experience we will cherish forever.

In summary, it's easier to transplant an Aussie pilot to Europe (ask me how I know!!) than visa-versa. My reccomendation would to either train and plan to stay in Europe, or do the whole thing in Australia.

As to the "is it worth it" bit? Well, it's all I've ever wanted to do and I feel very proud to be doing what I do for a living. It can be frustrating, boring, tiring and heartbreaking, but i still have a chuckle to myself when I think about the fact they pay me to fly that big, shiny jet.

[99Luftballons]

Wizzard

Many thanks for your reply.

I guess your response just re-affirms that the market in Oz remains pretty tough. I imagine it is just as tough in South Africa (where I am from), if not worse. My wife (who is from Oz) and I, ideally don't want to hang around in the UK forever. Houses, weather and lifestyle are just a lot better in SA or Oz, however, to do this job there as a low hour pilot will be difficult if you are talking jets.

Do you have any plans going back to Oz eventually or are you staying put (or is this purely job dependent)? I did my medical at Gatwick yesterday and also sat next to a low-hour Ozzy pilot who has come here to graze the 'greener' pastures. By the way, did you enter directly as a captain at EZY?

I would also appreciate it if you could elaborate on the occasional boredome/frustration/heartbreaking bit you mention. I guess every job has its ups and downs and although I would LOVE to fly the big shiny jet, I don't want to get to the end of my training (hopefully find a job after perhaps the Astraeus 100hr line training on a B737 - i.e. another big chunk of money) and moan about it like almost every other person on Pprune. I still hope that 'happy' pilots actually exist and that they are seldomnly on Pprune as they have better things to do than constantly whinge.

As for my current job, I am in finance which I am able to continue in either country. The pay is not too bad and the hours too are good in my case. However, it is not really what I want to do for the rest of my life. I will be starting my PPL training this weekend and guess that I will decide the next step when this stage is complete...In the meantime, I will be collecting further info of your world.

If there are other pilots out there, I would appreciate hearing from those who work for UK operators but live overseas and commute.

Cheers!

[relax737]

forget the profesional pilot path.

Too difficult these days with LCC's, hostile management etc.

There are professions that will give you a lot more satisfaction and booty than flying.

[FirstOfficer]

So what you are saying is that no one should try and achieve their dreams or goals because competition is high, LCCs, hostile management etc... :confused:

[Sky Goose]

Quite a sweeping statement...have you any expirience in these "better" professions, and what are they ?

Its not considered "cricket" to put off wannabees without some backup or explanation

[TVLand]

Hi 99,

I'm in a similar situation myself although I'm already in Australia thinking about making the move to the U.K. I'm about to turn 34 and all I've heard for the past 5 years is that I'm too old for the airlines.

I actually did my CPL and instrument rating a few years ago and haven't flown since, and am giving consideration re-starting the career in Europe due to the (seemingly) greater opportunities there, and the fact I think my wife would prefer to live abroad than in outback Oz.

With regard to airlines here, the line "experience comensurate with age" is a real worry. Does anyone out there have any insights for 99 and myself?

Cheers!

[redsnail]

I am noticing an increasing bias against folks in their late 30's and definitely 40's who don't have experience commensurate with age in the UK. Admittedly you need "less" hours compared to Australia but you need turbine hours for sure.

If you're not well on the way to being qualified and looking for work by perhaps 36, 37 at the latest then seriously consider flying for fun (UK). Of course, if you're independently wealthy, own your house and have a pension portfolio all sorted, then go for it.

Reason why. You've got maybe 20 or so years to "pay back" what you've spent plus continue saving for your retirement. I wouldn't be holding out for a Final Pension Scheme being in existance when you get into the airline industry. They are going slowly. By the time you're in your 30's you should be on good money. Chances are when you start with the flying career you definitely won't be on good money so that's a few more years of "catching up to do".

This assumes you do crack a decent job. If you don't, then it is a very expensive gamble, something your partner does need to be aware of when you decide to do this.

I am finally earning decent money after changing careers 10 years ago. I have ~20 years to save up enough money to retire on and buy a house. I have a great job, one I love doing. I'm not in an airline either. :D

I can say it's worth the gamble but I know of others the gamble hasn't gone their way.

[Counter-rotation]

Aloha 99LB,

This sort of question pops up often enough, and it is always hard to give advice without possibly
a) putting someone off what may be a very rewarding path
b) encouraging someone to make the biggest mistake of their life!

My thoughts for you (some of which have been covered already, repeated for emphasis):

Beware of underestimating the $$$$ cost (in terms of direct payment of actual beer tokens, and also the "opportunity cost") of following through on such a plan...
The rot that is firmly entrenched in the GA end of things seems to be expanding upward through the industry as a whole (just my considered opinion)...
AIDS (aviation induced divorce syndrome) is quite common amongst my peers, and my own relationship bears the strain of my lifestyle with considerable difficulty at times...

So that's a very "glass half empty" view I know, now I must balance that by saying:

I can see my own jet prospects thinning daily (not everyone makes it you know), but I still have excellent days - and not so good ones. So as jobs go I guess that's better than a job where a good day is an "average" one.
No relationship is perfect, and perhaps the test of chasing your dream will show you exactly where you're relationship is at.
Money isn't everything. I had a fortunate start, and I don't live like a king now, but I have everything I REALLY need.

If your dream is to FLY JETS, then proceed carefully, but be realistic and realise that it is in truth quite a significant gamble. It can however pay off magnificently.
If your dream is SIMPLY TO FLY, my advice would be to buy an ultralight, or a glider, or something similar, which (compared to powered flight in GA light aircraft) is very accessible. Believe me, your flying will be one hundred, no, one thousand times more fun when you can go WHERE YOU WANT, WHEN YOU WANT, WITH WHO YOU WANT. It's more "hands on" flying, and will be no less rewarding in terms of a challenge in achieving each new "level of proficiency".

Good luck with whatever you decide! :ok:

CR.

[its_my_passion]

Hi,

I'd like to share with you, my story below.

I am unsure as to whether anyone will offer me any sensible advice, but I will write anyway, because I don't know many airline pilots.

I'm a 22 year old in Australia, who has been slaving their guts out for the past three years to finish a business degree. Its been really hard work; not only from the academic side of things, but also from never having any money, going into considerable amounts of debt in order to pay for rent, living expenses, course fees and textbooks. It all adds up. I've worked my ass off to get a credit average.

The thing is, is that I have always had an absolute passion for flying. I got my PPL when I was 17 and was truly hoping for an eventual career as an airline pilot. The problem is, is that my last two years of high school were an absolute disaster for me. My mum died whilst I was in year 11; and subsequently I wasn't able to concentrate much on my studies and thus got a shocking year 12 mark. I failed maths, and had to drop physics. I got a UAI of 50. Consequently, no metro uni in sydney would take me, and in order to pursue my university education I chose to move to a remote area 12 hours away from my home where they offered to give me a place in their business degree course. I've finally made it through it successfully, and have been offered a 50K job to start in January.

But, I regularly read the information on the QF DE and Cadet pilot schemes. If there was one thing I could ever wish for in the world, it would be to be working in commercial aviation. It is my absolute passion.

I am literally exhausted after putting so much effort into getting my uni degree over the past three years. But I truly long to fly as a career.

The question I ask is this:

I am truly considering going to TAFE part-time in order to get HSC maths and physics, so that I would become eligible to apply for the QF cadet scheme and ADF avenues of pilot training.

To those of you that have "made it", I would be highly appreciative of your advice. I am not sure whether it is worthwhile spending 2 or so years slogging my arse off at TAFE getting the required subjects of maths and physics in-order to simply become eligible to even apply for the QF cadet scheme. I'd have to additionally spend time tuning-up my aptitude skills for stage 2, and this would probably mean spending a lot of time doing ARCO books and probably PATS.

Is a career as an airline pilot really "an extremely rewarding one in terms of job satisfaction and self esteem?"

As a young guy trying to make the best way through this life, whilst not wanting to disregard my career dreams, - what do ya reckon I should do.

if you could please reply, either here or privately, i'd be extremely grateful.

Many thanks guys.

.......

[Arm out the window]

i_m_p,
I was military and now GA, so have never experienced the airline job, but followed my dream as a young fella and would never change it.
Your situation sounds like one of those where if you don't give it a go, you will always be wondering 'what if?'
You're young enough that if it doesn't work out, you have many options anyway, and finishing the high school maths and physics will no doubt be beneficial in any case.
You don't have to start tomorrow, but how about early next year - there's a time frame, you've had a bit of a break after the uni, and it's a step on the way.
I've also read on various threads people talking about shorter aviation-connected maths and physics courses that may allow you to knock it over quicker than you think.
Good luck.

[tinpis]

i-m-p your youth is on your side.
Always remember that its not if your airline job will turn to ****e but when.
Get some skills behind you as well as being a pilot .
Pilots are as useful as tits on a bull.

[scatboy3]

would appreciate hearing from those who have sweated it out and believe it is totally worth the sacrifice!

So please only glowing comments about Chicks, Sunsets and rosie pictures!!!!!!!:zzz:
Maverick Out.

[99Luftballons]

Thanks for all your input. I have decided to start my PPL to begin with (first lesson last Saturday). Once completed, I will have a holiday in South Africa and do some hour building via a cross country trip. Yes, I still want to fly those big shiny jets but have to be realistic at the same time.

A friend of mine (30 now) has been flying for CrossAir/Swiss for 10 years. He has been a Captain on the Jumbolino as well as a training captain. Now he is a FO on the 320. He is going to Dubai in January to fly the 330 for Emirates and has 4,500 hours under his belt. It is his wish to fly in South Africa eventually (being from there) for someone like SAA.

If he has 10 years and 4,500 hours experience and is still not able to get into SAA (mainly Airbus too), then I have to ask myself what my chances are going to be? Although tempted, another 10 years in the UK is not what I had in mind (no offense to anyone). But if SA or Oz are that competitive, it might be better to save the money and fly for fun by buying a plane with a syndicate. At least you get to live and fly in the country you want to settle in (SA or Oz).

Another friend of mine (also 32) has his fATPL and also lives in London. He has been looking for a job for quite a while now (around 2 years or so) but so far has not had any joy whatsoever. It just shows that it is a tough world out there and quite risky if you put that much money towards it.

Yes, I will always wonder and continue to look up, but everything has to be seen as a complete picture. Being married and 32 is not the same as being 22 and single.

Still - if I win the lottery, I will go all the way and pay for the ride. :E