QANTAS discussions (All Bases) - Merged [Archive]

Trollywally

18th Oct 2005, 06:02

my Personal Title. Hey, PPRuNe is free isn't it?
posted 18th October 2005 05:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Qantas passes baton to Jetstar
Tues "Sydney Morning Herald"

Qantas passes baton to Jetstar
By Scott Rochfort
October 18, 2005

Qantas's plans to hive off a large chunk of its international operations to its low-cost Jetstar franchise are well advanced, with the airline looking to launch Jetstar flights from Australia to South-East Asia, China and possibly Japan in the second half of next year.

The national carrier is looking to lease longer-range aircraft for the budget airline, which initially will have a mandate to fly to destinations within a 10-hour flying range of Australia. It will form a major plank of Qantas's five-year plan to slash $3 billion from its cost base.

The Qantas board is expected to sign off plans for Jetstar International in early December. Jetstar International is expected to be run separately from Jetstar, which itself will launch international flights to New Zealand on December 1.

Like the domestic Jetstar, which was launched in May last year, it is expected the new carrier will take over less profitable international routes, such as Bali, Manila, Bangkok, Fukuoka in Japan and even Honolulu.

The carrier is also expected to open up more routes into Asia from smaller capital cities, such as Adelaide and Perth. Given the new Jetstar's longer range, it is speculated it will have two classes - economy and premium economy (or business).

Aside from attacking Qantas's cost base, the new Jetstar is also aiming to stem the growing incursion of carriers such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines on air traffic into Australia. Qantas's share of the international market into Australia fell from 30.4 to 28.3 per cent in the year to June.

The Qantas board is also expected to approve what could be the airline's largest fleet order. Qantas is looking at purchasing - and leasing - up to 100 new medium- and long-range aircraft. It is speculated a sizeable chunk of the order will be destined for Jetstar. Within Qantas ranks there is talk of the new airline even having a larger fleet than the domestic Jetstar, which will have a fleet of 23 jets by May next year.

The Qantas fleet order could include so-called "hub busting" ultra-long range aircraft such as the Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200ER, and medium-range planes such as the B787 and A350.

Given the aircraft could take several years to deliver, Qantas in the meantime is looking to lease aircraft for Jetstar's initial incursion into Asia. It is expected Jetstar could wait until it takes delivery of its fleet of A350s or 787s before launching flights to Europe and the US.

It is unclear what the expansion of Jetstar means for the future of Qantas's other Asia-focused budget operation, Australian Airlines.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon declined to comment yesterday on Jetstar's international expansion plans or if it could result in Qantas surrendering some routes. Nor would he comment on the possible ramifications on Qantas's heavily unionised 38,000-strong workforce.

At the full-year profit results in August, Mr Dixon said: "Jetstar is going to be such an important part of Qantas … it will be just as important as the main line."

Qantas's plans to boost the profile of Jetstar internationally could meet stiff resistance from pilots. A list of so-called "reform candidates" recently won control of the Australian and International Pilots Association. Their campaign for control of the union was spearheaded by opposition to Jetstar launching international flights.

========================================

Sonique

18th Oct 2005, 09:38

18 October 2005
Dear Australian Airlines Employees,
I understand that recent speculation in the media of a proposed Jetstar
International airline is creating uncertainty in the minds of Australian Airlines
employees.
Firstly, let me say that no final decision about proceeding with a ‘Jetstar
International’ has been made. These decisions will be made over the next
three to four months.
Although definite commitments are no longer possible in aviation, let me reiterate
what has been said in the past to Andrea Staines, Australian Airlines
Management and the media. Australian Airlines adds value to the Qantas
Group because it is fulfilling its mandate of allowing the Group to maintain a
presence on international leisure routes at a lower cost than possible with the
mainline. The establishment, maintenance and continuous improvement of
this lower cost base has been an important achievement of Australian
Airlines, as has been its outstanding customer service.
All businesses within the Qantas Group, both flying and non-flying, are under
constant review. Despite difficult operating conditions since almost the first
day of operations, Australian Airlines will continue to operate in this strategic
role for the foreseeable future.
With regards
GEOFF DIXON

FirstOfficer

18th Oct 2005, 10:00

:{

I can't believe they are doing this :mad: it makes me :mad: :*

Where is Qanta's "Spirit of Australia" :confused:

:hmm:

Wed Webbing Woop

18th Oct 2005, 10:33

........this is the beginning of the end!!!!!

PER L/H base-gone!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to Regional flying. It was announced as the BIG shining star of the Wesst. Now, all those that up rooted, relocated, worked their butts off, supported the QF mantra-GET STUFFED!

Australian Airlines- ditto.

Crew relocated to CNS, worked tirelessly for the "group" (sic!! )-GET STUFFED!

Jet * is the beginning of the end.

Time to stuff the Red Rat @ the local taxidermist. Put up on the shelf and dream of the glory days when people were put before F#@!#@$$%%%'in shareholders & profits.

H_Girl

18th Oct 2005, 11:25

where has it been announced that the Perth long haul base has gone?

The writing may be on the wall but last time i heard it's still open!

ladies and gentlemen

18th Oct 2005, 12:17

Hi all, I have an interview with QANTAS on Mon 24th Oct at LHR.
Was wondering if anyone who has been can tell me what to expect? Is the test on Australia verbal or written. Is it a panel interview etc. Any information would be greatly appreciated to prepare me for this interview. Thanks for your help.

Pro Golfer 69

18th Oct 2005, 13:46

It makes sense. With the massive amount of sick leave occurring out of the LHR base with the pommy teenage girls, the constant turnover of staff and the appalling customer feedback surveys, they need all the experienced crew they can get!

wan2fly

18th Oct 2005, 13:58

Pro golfer - who ever you get your info from, you better dump em !!

I have recenlty started with QF UK and all i can say is WOW !! - I have flown with a great mix of Aussie Thai and UK crew and they are ALL great - yeah a few moaners but hey your one your self aint ya ? get them everywhere and they will leave eventually just natural wastage I feel - There were no Young teenage girls on my course youngest about 25 oldest about 36.....

You have to remember that this is a new base and its not fully crewed so if crew go sick of course there is a little shortage, however, crew are comming on line all the time.....Plus this job is not for everyone some have wanted to do it all their lives and its not for them these people leave quite quickly... Give it a chance or are you one of those bitter crew who cant bear to see our fantastic customer service results....dont know whos you have been checking but they are deffo not QF LHR - I was only reading them other day and thought, "thats great !" .....

Enough of the negativity already !

Pro Golfer 69

18th Oct 2005, 14:05

Good to see the QF spin team is on the ball. Keep up the good work!

:}

By the way a new record set the other day on the QF2. 20 operating crew, every jumpseat taken! Excellent customer service feedback from that flight!

wan2fly

18th Oct 2005, 14:09

How wrong you are - I couldn't be further away from the "Spin Team" as you put it .....

I am a crew member who is proud to be here and loving it simple as....Is that so hard for you to accept?........;)

Boeing Dolly

18th Oct 2005, 15:22

The announcement is out.

Anyone have the phone number for the removalists?

Thanks QF for yet another move in a long line to build morale within the employee ranks.

Merry Christmas to all those longhaul staff in Perth base care of Geoff.

:(

ozskipper

18th Oct 2005, 16:10

I'm not going to get involved in a slanging match or the like and I'm certainly not part of the Qantas spin team but....

I think everyone in Qantas is aware that we are not getting "appalling customer survey results". In actual fact we are on par or in some areas ahead of the Australian bases.

The London base is here for the moment - yes, we've all seen that bases come and go - but no one wishes badly of the Australian bases over here, so the continued barrage of ill will towards the London base (and at the wrong people I might add) is becoming tedious at best.

If you must attack the base, attack those that created the idea rather than those that work in it.

This should be the time where we work together rather than making the divide greater. You never know when you might need the support of the London base - ****canning now and expecting assistance later on might be a wee bit of an ask.

OZcabincrew

18th Oct 2005, 16:14

hey, where did this come from? I knew it was on the cards and infact the crew i'm with were talking about it tonight, but hadn't heard anything final? I wonder what the "options" will be for them?

Oz

OZcabincrew

18th Oct 2005, 16:21

it will be a sad day when a low cost carrier such as Jetstar becomes the nations airline!:{

qcc2

19th Oct 2005, 00:07

sorry to hear about the per base. know a lot of great people there who did a hell of a job. but as fly girl mentiones if the little dwarf can save 50c and put half in his pocket he'll shaft anyone.and as always most of the s**t coming out of his mouth is not worth listening too.

wan2fly
"You have to remember that this is a new base and its not fully crewed so if crew go sick of course there is a little shortage".
you mean more bad managemenmt decisions? sounds too familiar.

H_Girl

19th Oct 2005, 04:11

Well, got the letter today!

Perth L/H base is to close at the end of Bid perion 242, 19 Feb 2006.

Our options are as follows:

Transfer to S/H Perth
Transfer to L/H Sydney or Melbourne
Transfer on leave without pay to Qantas Cabin Crew UK in London
Expressions of interest for redundancy

Even though we knew it was coming it is still a bit of a shock.

There are some very good crew flying out of Perth and because it is a small base we all know each other well.

At least a decision has been made at last and we no longer have it hanging over us with constant speculation.

Oh i forgot to mention that the "pretend" base manager as PerthFlyGirl called her is very conveniently on leave until first week of November leaving Andrew who should have been given the position himself, on his own to take all the heat from those of us going to the mailbox this morning.

At least he's been trying to contact everyone up line to let them know what is happening rather than them hearing it from the Qantas grape vine.

She certainly chose a good time to take a trip to the Uk. Maybe she's checking out job opportuities over at Qantas UK!

red or white

19th Oct 2005, 05:49

So jetstar is going international.

Are they recruiting or tarnsferring crew from mam and per?

airbus_galley_girl

19th Oct 2005, 06:41

No, Australian Airlines crew will be transferred to JQ*Int. That's what I heard from a very reliable source.

Bad Adventures

19th Oct 2005, 08:15

Just goes to show, you can't trust these management f**ks as far as you can throw them. The brainwashing that's occuring at the LHR base is another perfect example. People are leaving faster then they can hire them!

OZcabincrew

19th Oct 2005, 09:21

that's what i though would happen.

MAM have nothing to do with Jetstar etc, they are only linked with Qantas mainline.

aussie

Bidan

19th Oct 2005, 10:04

Doorisarmed..

What a memory you must have doorisarmed!! I was working BA Eurofleet LHR only for a short time.. Came home to Melbourne because I got home sick...Got here and thought WHAT HAVE I DONE... Hence my application to Jet connect.
Jetconnect have been checking my references so hopefully I am in there with a chance.

Auckland Based Crew..

Would love to know what trips you do other than L.A??

Also has anyone heard from Jetconnect yet??

ozskipper

19th Oct 2005, 10:40

Sorry to hear about the Perth LH base closing - good luck with whatever you decide to do.

speedbirdhouse

19th Oct 2005, 10:59

The following is an excerpt from a recent Financial Times article by their resident columist Tyler Brule.

Enjoy...........not.

Quote-

"Halfway around the world and back and increasingly confused.

........its now somewhere between Wednesday and Thursday and I believe I'm on the QF1 to London. The reason I'm unsure is that there's barely an Australian crew member in sight.
The back of the plane seems to be manned by Thai crew and First and Business by English flight attendants.
The experience doesn't feel very Qantas- more a set of disconnected people working on a 747-400 that's the flag carrier for a country they have no relationship with.
No doubt there are some short term cost savings, but for me, who's been around the world in a week, i'd like to know exactly where I am and who I'm flying with.
Qantas's finance department might be seeing an upside, but I'm only seeing brand erosion."

End quote.

Interesting, if VERY sad to see that the broader community are beginning to cotton on the the fact that the trough feeding scum running this company are selling 85 years of history, goodwill and heritage in an effort to line their own pockets. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Wed Webbing Woop

19th Oct 2005, 11:44

Really sorry to hear the news today.

As mentioned in previous posts Ihad the absolute pleasure to fly with the Perth guys on a couple of CDG trips in 2003. They were really UP BEAT, fresh and dare I say -"engaged".

Keep your heads up guys-you've done good.

As far as QF management is concerned-does it really surprise any of us!!!!

I'm not going to launch into my usual tirade-only to say :

"what goes around comes around"

&

"what you shall sow you shall reap "

Pro Golfer 69

19th Oct 2005, 13:13

Yes Speedbirdhouse

That article really does some it up and the premium class passengers are leaving in droves.

cartexchange

19th Oct 2005, 19:48

midnight,
tell the poor guy the truth,
120 in HNL,its only for 2 SYD based F/A, not for the scabs.
and then tell him.her that most of that time will be spent sleeping as the 240 hour rosters you are getting is killing the poor things.
the HNL will be gone for AKL based crew.
You will be doing a lot of LAX/AKL trips on the 747-300, no horizontal crew rest and only 6 cramped seats.
Have a look at the bid book, code "C" for the 747-300.
have fun Midnight!

Bidan

20th Oct 2005, 08:51

Midnight...Sent you a p.m

gigs

20th Oct 2005, 09:05

hope you get a response biden cheers gigs:ok:

speedbirdhouse

20th Oct 2005, 09:27

Our strike breaking friend is telling porkie pies. I've had a opportunity to fly with AKL based crew for most of this roster.

240 hours [and sometimes more] seems to be the norm for those that I have spoken to.

One particular girl has been instructed by her doctor to leave as the physical impact of the conditions QF impose on her have caused her to lose her menstrual cycle.

Another large group of FA's leaving the AKL base around the end of the year is the word out on line.

My advise for wannabees is to look to AirNZ for flight attendant positions.

They offer humane working conditions which can't sadly be said for Qantas..................

p m than sword

20th Oct 2005, 14:31

Absolutely disgraceful!!!!!!
Perth base was operating efficiently until the short haulers voted to take all the int flying. Thanks guys!
I used to bend over backwards to please the customer cause i love what I do. Now im bending over but its not to help the customers, its cause qf are giving it to me and and all my mates in perth ...and that is something im not into.

This place had the greatest morale and very high customer satisfaction.
Just who is responsible for making these decisions?
Eg. 20 odd short haul casuals put up in perth for months to cover the extra flying from long haul; syd crews o/ nighting in per to cover the singapore trips.
And now that short haul have all of the regional flying, half of them dont want to do it, esp the NRT trips. more sick leave.C'mon, where are the so called cost savings?

Add to that 100 plus extremely pissed off long haul crew. Half of whom moved there with their kids to start the base.
We were lied to. It was in black and white..' the perth long haul base is not closing'
I dont teach my kids to lie. It's wrong. And this is wrong, very wrong!

Good luck everyone. Im gonna miss you.

SkySista

20th Oct 2005, 16:14

Hey all, just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear the Perth base is closing. By all accounts things were going well and people very happy there.

All the crew I have seen coming and going from the office/base there smiling and friendly, actually looked like they enjoyed their jobs...

Chin up guys n girls I hope things get better... and if you really want to stay in Perth I hear NJS are still looking (yeah not as glam but hey if it means keeping the fab Perth lifestyle.... :cool: )

All the best, Qantas really stuffed this one......! :mad:

OZcabincrew

20th Oct 2005, 17:37

hmmmmm :hmm:

blue_stew

20th Oct 2005, 21:35

"Actually asked the question to 'Let Me Show You My Camel-Toe' pretend Base Manager--->!could she wear her pants any tighter????? "

That made me laugh. If she needs a job, DJ Base Managers (or whatever they are called these days) like to wear inappropriate clothing as well, however tell her its BYO Boob tube.

Shazzbutt

21st Oct 2005, 03:43

Goodbye to all my friends at Perth longhaul.
Found this link http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16988050-2,00.html
on the D&G forum.
Pleased to see our executives aren't letting the staff cuts get in their way!!!

Wed Webbing Woop

21st Oct 2005, 11:46

A friend of mine( Perth based) called me today to give me an insight into the latest on the Base.

What a total debacle!!!!

The supposedly Base Manager is on Holidays in UK-doh!!! ( On no big deal 100 loyal Qantas staff - every man/woman for themselves)
Only 1 person -ONE from Qantas to manage the whole thing. What an absolute disgrace. How the hell are people suppose to sort all of this mess out -on their own.

Shame on you Kylie. This would have to go down as low as you hiring those strike breakers last year-you clown.

THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS YOU ARE DEALING WITH -NOT INANIMATE PIECES OF CRAP YOU STEP OVER IN DOWN TOWN OXFORD STREET EVERY EVENING!!!!

How much $$$$$ is Qantas spending on the Bonaventure court case?.....................for what.

Its time you had a good hard look in the mirror and start treating your people with some dignity and respect-then maybe just maybe you may even get some engagement(sic)

blueloo

21st Oct 2005, 13:20

I reckon the Per L/H base is/was the best on the network. The CC were always the friendliest...and hadnt been corrupted by the long term Sydney attitudes.

What I think wouldnt have helped the cause was the PER sick leave. People just went sick when they couldnt be bothered working. This was unfortunately wide spread. The most notably was one CC, who continually turns up for work, decides she cant be bothered working when she gets there and goes home. Causing some poor person on STBY to get called out.

Whilst not only screwing your own career prospects you screw your work mates too. Not good.

Having said that it will be sad to see the base go. It was a big assest for QF.

cartexchange

21st Oct 2005, 21:25

bluee looooooooo///

you dont make sense, you state it was the friendliest and the best on the network, yet sick leave was rampant!
How can that be a good base.
Then you make statements against SYD based crew!

I think its about time you flush yourself.

HAving said that yes its sad about PER, it just goes to show, no matter what you do, its the bottom dollar that counts.

The people factor simply doesnt matter.

MAybe they will reopen it with MIdnight 63 and her strike breaking friends, after all they are willing to do anything to undermine our conditions! (no morals with that one)

TightSlot

21st Oct 2005, 21:37

I can appreciate that feelings may run high with a base closure announced: Please keep on topic and off the abuse, no matter how distressed you may feel

Thanks

speedbirdhouse

21st Oct 2005, 22:15

Hello blueloo,

I'd be very gratefull if you would take the time to elaborate on your, "corrupted by the long term Sydney attitudes." quote.

I assume you are a pilot? :ok:

Tuner 2

22nd Oct 2005, 03:47

I'm not cabin crew but can tell you with certainty that 240hr rosters at the AKL base are just not happening any more. BP241 has seemingly most rosters projected at around 180-185hrs - including 120hr slips in HNL, plenty of AKL-LAX's as usual, plus JNB, PVG and BOM as well as some unusual stuff like pax to PER and daytrips to SYD/MEL/BNE.

blueloo

22nd Oct 2005, 04:17

Oh, you know Sydney attitudes.....where the cabin crew take the tech crew to the destination, where they openly state they should be paid more than the captain etc etc.. where you go for 3 hours without anyone seeing if your alive etc etc.

:}

OCCR

22nd Oct 2005, 08:17

but we do take you there blueloo,
Have you just realised this!

Good luck in your EBA! heh heh heh

PS , Im glad you agree we should be paid more, finally someone has seen the light!

Grove

22nd Oct 2005, 08:27

I am not Qantas Cabin Crew, however a very good friend of mine is a Sydney based long haul flight attendant. Last financial year he earned more than $70,000. He has no degree infact he didnt even finish high school.
Not bad for someone with no qualifications.
I do have a degree, dont travel the world, work alot more than 190 per 2mths and earn much less.
Although there appears to be a lot of change and it may be getting a bit tougher for long haul crew, at the end of the day, and I admitt from an outsiders point of view things arent too bad.

labia vortex

22nd Oct 2005, 20:42

The salary you quote is with enormous amounts of overtime and long range allowances.
Not Bad......
1.a reduction in longevity
2.chromosomal damage
3.higher than average occurrence of certain forms of cancer
4.Away for wedding anniversaries,christmas,births and birthdays easter etc.
5.no public holidays
6.terrorism threats
7.chronic fatigue
8.an employer that belittles you at every opportunity.
9.work while everyone else is in bed
Yeah, Not bad really........
Me...flying 22 years,have a B.Comm.LLB and my gross this year was $48,530 with a wife three kids and a Heinz variety dog.
Hardly an extravagant lifestyle.
Oh,and just for the record.
Dixon has no degree,travels overseas,earns $6mil/pa and enjoys every perk and lurk imaginable.
$100,000/week is obscene for someone who has no particular talent except for a few political mates who got him where he is.
I believe he even gets his viagra for free.
A clearer perspective I think.
NB.Minimum educational standard for a flight attendant position is HSC or equivalent

captainrats

22nd Oct 2005, 21:42

The 16 hour tours of duty.
Soon to be 20 with the arrival of the A380 and the 777 LR

Grove

23rd Oct 2005, 12:22

My buddies salary does include cash in hand meal money... Which I would imagine yours didnt.
Other points why I consider you job ' not so bad'

1. 6 weeks annual leave
2. Staff travel entitlements..Buisness class of course
3. Provided uniform..Dry cleaning paid for by the company
4.A bid system where I would have thought with 22yrs
experience you would be able to organise being home for special occasions
5.Taxi,s provided to and from work at certain times.
6.Profit share, my buddies just sold $7,000 worth of shares.
7.He also recieved recently a $1500 bonus.
8.Generous sick leave entitlements.
9.An enormous hourly rate while on overtime.

All in all I must say again not such a bad job.
Also he didnt finish high school as we both attended the same one. Good luck to him I say!! I certainly wish I worked under such bad conditions..

blueloo

23rd Oct 2005, 13:06

No one in QF, other than the pigs in the trough at the top got more than a $1000 bonus. That includes all tech crew, cabin crew, cleaners, etc.

THe staff travel entitlement, is for space available travel. It is not confirmed. It is part of the conditions of employment. Sometimes it is more hassel than its worth, but it can be a good perk. Cabin crew do not get business class until 7 years service or unless CSM. It too, is space available.

Grove 6 weeks annual leave is pretty minor when you spend half your life away from home.

The company dry cleans the uniforms, because it is a service orientated industry and the uniforms have to look good. If it were left up to the crew themselves, they wouldnt spend the money on it, and their uniforms would look pretty crappy fairly quickly.

Generous sick leave entitlements are there, because flying can make you sick fairly regularly. Your body clock can be out of wack, your not breathing sea level air, your in a tube full of hundrerds of people in close proximity, your bound to get sick.

Taxis whilst an entitlement for certain trips, are part of the companies duty of care (well should be at least). If you have been at work for 18 hours duty through the middle of the night, across however many timezones, breathing non sea level air, you feel phucked. Try driving a car safely.

Fantastic, 22 years service and you might get what you bid for. What about the first 15 years where your away for every one your kids birthdays, footy matches, christmas etc.

Sometimes people look at the glossy side of the job only. Try having a look at the other stuff.

speedbirdhouse

23rd Oct 2005, 13:12

Quote-

"An enormous hourly rate while on overtime"

-----------------

Time and a half overtime that kicks in ONLY after 12 hours????

"Enormous???"

Please explain?

ricciricardo

23rd Oct 2005, 13:26

Grove et al

I left l/h qf after many years and entered the 'real world' oh my god what a shock! as they say "you don't know what you've got until it's gone"
It really distresses me to read the trivial crap on this forum, poor little us, lousy hotels, long hours, mngmt are out to get us!..... Often I want to put my fist through the moniter!!!!
There are times I yearn to be back in the cocoon.:{

GalleyHag

23rd Oct 2005, 13:43

IR boss to check out LA hotel

From The Australian

October 21, 2005

IT is a Los Angeles landmark and features in many Hollywood hits, but Qantas cabin crew say they have been exposed to drug deals, threats of violence, noise and lack of privacy since the airline started putting them up at the Westin Bonaventure hotel.

And to verify if the flight attendants have a legitimate complaint, Australian Industrial Relations Commission member Frank Raffaelli will fly business class to LA to check in as a guest at the 35-storey hostelry.

Mr Raffaelli, a former trade unionist appointed to the commission in 1996, will be accompanied on his fact-finding trip by representatives of Qantas and the Flight Attendants Association of Australia.

Mr Raffaelli is well qualified to judge the merits of the case as a former assistant national secretary of the Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union, where he was an official for more than 20 years.

The Bonaventure has served as the location for films including True Lies, Rain Man, and most famously In The Line Of Fire, where would-be presidential assassin John Malkovich battled with security man Clint Eastwood in the glass elevator that rides up the hotel's mirrored towers.

The elevator, into which California Governor Arnold Schwarnegger rode a horse in True Lies, poses privacy concerns for flight attendants, who complain that guests can see straight into their rooms from the lift.

Mr Raffaelli told The Australian the trip was justified because 270 Qantas employees stayed at the hotel each night, 365 days a year, at a cost of millions of dollars a year. "It's what we call a large worksite, and we would have no hesitation in doing a site inspection," he said.

Mr Raffaelli said the four-day trip would involve two days' flying and a 1 1/2-day visit.

FAAA international division secretary Michael Mijatov said that despite the Bonaventure's location in LA's downtown financial district, the area was virtually deserted at night when airline crews finished their shifts.

Incidents in which crew safety had been compromised included female crew being propositioned in hotel corridors, drug deals in the streets around the hotel and threats of physical violence.

The $US200 ($266)-a-night rooms in the hotel, which has just undergone a $US35 million upgrade, are not all they are cracked up to be, say the Qantas long-haul flight attendants.

The union says the previous staff hotel in Pasadena was more central and less isolated after hours, when cabin crew arrived for rest breaks.

The FAAA has also raised concerns about accommodation for cabin crew at New York's Lexington Hotel.

Qantas head of customer service Lesley Grant said the Bonaventure had been "thoroughly reviewed" and met all criteria, including safety, before pilots and crew were moved there in March.

"From time to time, we change hotels for various reasons, for example contract renegotiations or operational reasons such as accommodating all crew together at the one hotel," she said.

Mr Raffaelli adjourned the case yesterday after three days of hearing in Sydney.

cartexchange

23rd Oct 2005, 21:30

Ricciricardo.

Didnt you check it out what it was like in the "real" world, before you left?
That is the first thing I would do!
So it looks like you took it for granted! well that is your punishment!

ricciricardo

24th Oct 2005, 00:02

cartx,
For whatever reason I left q/f l/h is irrellevent and is strictly my personal business, all I wanted to stress is that things are not as bad as some punters on this forum make out, and they should be thankful for being in a occupation that required very little formal education and training for a well above average income.
I don't understand you saying that I am being "punished" what's that all about???? I work harder now than I ever did at l/h but it's far from a penance! actually it's quite rewarding and a very positive environment to be in.
R:D

cartexchange

24th Oct 2005, 01:17

Ricci.
Yes its your business and who said we were interested in why you left!
Why do you want to "stress" to us that we should be thankful!
I am thankful and I appreciate my job, that is why I'm still doing it! and I object to people who are not in the industry anymore telling me all about it.
You have now left the industry its time to "move on" and leave us to our "business".
Things have changed since you left!
Enjoy your new carreer and I wish you well, but dont begrudge us!

Grove

24th Oct 2005, 02:56

Guys, please dont take my post the wrong way.
I certainly dont begrudge anyone for the conditions you work under. God knows I wish I worked there!!
Good luck to you.
Also I did make a mistake it was a $1000 bonus, not $1500..

RideTheWave

24th Oct 2005, 07:20

Yep it is sad to see the Long Haul Cabin Crew Base Perth closing. Thank God we have options and decent ones at that.
Qantas has been on the road toward a Sustainable Future for some - that is where we as cabin crew MUST FOCUS - on our own Sustainable Future.
Please dont propell ourselves into a downward negative spiral - where will that get us???
Business is business and as wise people we must realise we have to move with the times.
Do our skills and professionalism contribute positivly to the business or has our attitude of self importance surpassed our role.
Can the market place financially support the demands we put on it?
More the point are our customers willing to pay a high price to travel with us?
Just look at the prices we charge compared to our compeditors.
It is 2005 we work in a global industry where the dollar is the bottom line - we must look at our individual contribution to Qantas and ask ourselves what can we do to sustaine our future at this developing business.
As opposed to degrading management be thankful as a team we all are on a profitable road where our future is sustainable

Ride The Wave

sydney s/h

24th Oct 2005, 10:13

Interesting............

I was watching foxtel tonight and saw a program on Neil Perry and he was sprucing on about food and his resturant Rockpool etc etc.

It was quite an interesting show and he was going on about the entire resturant experiance - not just the food but the service,ambiance etc. Pretty much what they try and "reproduce" onboard in our premium cabins (or attempt to!!!).

Anyway....he said to get the best committed staff and to have people who are focused on the job he employs only fulltime staff. He's attitude was that they need to have these people to get the best results.

Perry said that it's better to have good food and great service rather than great food and average service.

My long winded point was that .....why are we employing a casual workforce?? This is not a dig against the casuals, BUT, our menu's and service are based off the whole rockpool experiance, why isnt our staffing procedures the same!!

speedbirdhouse

24th Oct 2005, 10:45

You [and Neil Perry] make some interesting observations.

The differences in attitude to staffing arrangements between Perry and Qantas [Dixon] illustrate a short term verses long term approach to business success.

Perry wants [and needs] quality staff as the longterm reputation of his business demands it.

Qantas [Dixon] wants [and needs] cheap staff as his performance bonus demands it.

I believe "ride the wave" is the new term used to define this approach. :yuk:

I'll cut and paste again the recent Financial Times article re this approach as it is quite illustrative.

Quote-

"Halfway around the world and back and increasingly confused.

........its now somewhere between Wednesday and Thursday and I believe I'm on the QF1 to London. The reason I'm unsure is that there's barely an Australian crew member in sight.
The back of the plane seems to be manned by Thai crew and First and Business by English flight attendants.
The experience doesn't feel very Qantas- more a set of disconnected people working on a 747-400 that's the flag carrier for a country they have no relationship with.
No doubt there are some short term cost savings, but for me, who's been around the world in a week, i'd like to know exactly where I am and who I'm flying with.
Qantas's finance department might be seeing an upside, but I'm only seeing brand erosion."

End quote.

blueloo

24th Oct 2005, 12:49

Here is the entire article, just in case you went searching like me:

Financial Times

Home UK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Main page content:
Halfway around the world and back and increasingly confused
By Tyler Brule
Published: July 23 2005 03:00 | Last updated: July 23 2005 03:00

The past week was a bit faster than usual for your cloud-bound correspondent. Flying halfway around the world and back again in just over a week, here's what I found.

LHR-LAX-LHR-ZRH-LHR-NRT-SYD-BKK-LHR: those were the letters that jumped off the page when my intrepid assistant Gaby handed me my week's itinerary last Monday. Any regular traveller would recognise that the second and third LHRs should have been deleted and the ZRH inserted just after the BKK. Even the less- seasoned flier would know that London-Los Angeles-London-Zurich- London-Tokyo-Sydney-Bangkok-London is pushing it (no matter where you're sitting on the plane), but a board meeting in Zurich demanded I return to Europe before embarking on my Pacific Rim runaround.

The first leg of my journey started in seat 1A on the early BA to LA.

I knew I was in for an irritating flight as soon as the canapes were placed in front of the gentleman across the aisle. My fellow passenger eventually decided on the prawn and roe concoction and popped it in his mouth. I normally wouldn't pay such close attention, but I was trying to peer out of his window to get a fix on our location and soon became transfixed when I noticed that he was incapable of eating with his mouth closed. Initially I dismissed the bad table manners as post-take-off nerves or a mild case of "upgrade excitement" but rapidly concluded that he was a "smacker" - the airborne adult equivalent of the screaming one-year-old.

Just as it's impossible to block out a wailing infant two rows behind you, it's equally challenging to cancel out a grown man who smacks through a five-course meal when he's within your immediate airspace. At first I tried staring at him with my best look of bewilderment. On several occasions I considered saying something and in the end had to resort to headphones to delete the sound of a pasty tongue disengaging from sticky gums.

By the time I reached Los Angeles I was in desperate need of a sugar hit, having been put off the afternoon scones and jam by my neighbour. I replenished my supplies by paying a visit to Sprinkles on Little Santa Monica in Beverly Hills. Launched in April, Sprinkles is a modernist cupcake emporium created by former Martha Stewart editor Page Marchese-Norman. Owned by Charles and Candace Nelson, the chocolate-brown, white and oak space trades in 20 varieties of cupcakes (coconut's my favourite) and is already establishing itself as a "must-give" brand. Where most cupcake emporiums have gone for twee interiors, Marchese-Norman devised a strict, orderly concept with the help of LA-based Austrian architect Andrea Lenardin Madden. Working with the best ingredients and a strong packaging concept, a national roll-out of Sprinkles can't be far off.

Back at LAX 24 hours later, and running very late for my flight to Heathrow, I only had time to grab a copy of the New Yorker and Martha Stewart Living from the newsstand. Since Martha's release, it's clear she's been spending her time under house arrest giving her editorial staff a hard time as the magazine has improved significantly. While climbing to our cruising altitude, I decided that I have to build a screened-in summer room something like the one Martha's team have created in her July issue.

Connecting to Zurich the following afternoon I managed to leave my Fay navy blazer on my Swiss flight and was quite convinced I'd never see it again. By the time I'd finished my board meeting the next morning, the jacket had been recovered and was waiting for me at terminal one. The lady at lost and found proudly told me that pretty much everything gets returned at Zurich airport.

Two hours later I was back at Heathrow, where I picked up Gaby for the Asian portion of my tour - and her first trip to Tokyo.

As ever, the city put on a good show. In Marunouchi I visited the flagship store for Darjeeling Days - the latest concept to come from the United Arrows retail group. Aimed squarely at the male FT reader who doesn't want fashion but does want an elegant, high-quality wardrobe, the concept is already going national across Japan. In Ginza I visited the atelier of Shigeru Takizawa, who's fast becoming Tokyo's most sought after bespoke tailor. In Shinjuku I marvelled at the new-ish Isetan men's store and decided it's the new global benchmark for menswear. Although I didn't need any new garments, I still managed to walk out with a summer trilby from the old-school Tokio Hat brand, eyeglasses from Four Nines and some crisp cotton Gunze briefs.

Remembering that this was also a cultural/social study for Gaby, I took her over to the main Isetan building and gave her a tour of the pinny and slipper section. There's been a proliferation of labels churning out housedresses, aprons, headkerchiefs and little felt booties, so everyone residing in Ebisu and Aoyama can pretend they're either living off the land in Norway (the Ogg brand has cornered this look) or raising chickens in the Piemonte region of Italy.

Escaping the 40°C heat of Tokyo, Sydney greeted us with sunny skies and a crisp 18°C. Still playing tour guide to Miss Gaby, I took her to visit the newest branch of my friend Bill Granger's collection of restaurants, Bills Woollahra, on the corner of Queen Street and Moncur. This latest branch has the added benefit of an entire courtyard filled with tables.

At the time of filing this copy, it's now somewhere between Wednesday and Thursday and I believe I'm on the Qantas QF1 to London. The reason I'm unsure is that there's barely an Australian crew member in sight.

The back of the aircraft seems to be manned by Thai crew and First and Business by English flight attendants. The experience doesn't feel very Qantas - more a set of disconnected people working on a 747-400 that's the flag carrier for a country they have no relationship with. No doubt there are some short-term cost-savings, but for me, who's been around the world in a week, I'd like to know exactly where I am and who I'm flying with. Qantas's finance department might be seeing an upside, but I'm only seeing brand erosion.

[email protected]

FT link (http://www.sprinklescupcakes.com/press/ft.com/FT.html)

Bidan

25th Oct 2005, 00:35

Had my panel over 2 weeks ago, havnt heard a thing yet either.
They did check my references last week on Tuesday.... Still waiting.waiting,waiting

lowcostjet

25th Oct 2005, 12:34

Anyone who attended interviews in auckland for qf long haul, have you heard back? And if there is anyone on pprune who knows the what kind or rosters auck base get, how many days off per month, what the pay is like as it was never mentioned in the interviews. Strange all the airline interviews i have been too they have always said what they would pay there crew.

Jetstar are recruiting on the south island this weekend, so anyone in christchurch go on and apply.

jesski

27th Oct 2005, 12:49

hiiiiiiiiiiii
well i havent been this way in awhile but thought id come check up on my fellow ppruners!!!
grove- u were lucky that they held off on getting u through the rest of it, i had to go for my medical in may.... just to be told that they arent recruiting yet.... but i was never told any times or dates, just 'congratulations, ur on a shortlist for 6 months!!
wooo yeh...... not
:hmm:
so now in a few weeks those 6 months are up..... what are they going to do with us?????
jessssski :)

Tuner 2

28th Oct 2005, 08:37

lowcostjet,

Destinations have been previously mentioned on this thread. Trip lengths from 1-9 days with an average of around 6-7 days.
Days off per 56 day roster usually from 14-24 days - expect some standbys in there. Pay is around NZ$27,000 pa with a small rise after 12 months. Allowances worth approx $20,000pa.

speedbirdhouse

28th Oct 2005, 08:41

"Allowances worth approx $20,000pa."

Some of the most rubbery numbers I have ever seen.

Tuner 2's previous assersion that rosters in the order of 240 hours are no longer being generated is also false.

One has to wonder why {a Qantas S/O ?} feels the need to post such misinformation.

As an aside, things were getting rather quiet in these parts.
For a moment I thought that I would have to get a life:ok:

andie74

28th Oct 2005, 10:29

sydney s/h & speedbirdhouse,

i have to say that as a MAM casual i totally agree with your sentiments. we (MAM casuals) certainly are a cheap alternative to full time workers. although i myself am actually happy to be a casual employee (bcos im studying and want flexible work etc, etc) i really believe that what a company gives to you- is wot you give back to the company.

the hourly rate we are paid at MAM/Qantas is good (in comparison to other customer service type roles) - but not great, infact the last casual job i had paid the same hourly rate. i happily accept that a casual rate of pay is in lieu of sick pay, annual leave etc, but what i do find amazing is that we dont get paid ANY penalty rates/weekend rates /public holiday rates. every day of the year we get paid exactly the same hourly rate- no exceptions.

i guess its something that i find strange because EVERY other casual job ive ever had has paid penalty rates etc. i stay with MAM /Qantas bcos at the moment it suits me, but in general i just dont / wont work public hols anymore for this reason. More and more casuals are starting to say the same thing. infact im holding my breath to see what will happen when we are told what our 'must work' days will be for christmas / new year bcos ive already heard so many casuals say that they simply wont work......... i dont know how they will get around it?? ....take sickies, or just make a lot of noise about it all... i dont know.

I do know that in previous casual jobs in the health industry- i myself at times was happy to accept that i had a job that didnt close down over the festive season and take my turns at working christmas day, boxing day, new years day etc. but i did it knowing that i was being 'fairly renumerated' for working on these so called 'unsociable' days. so i have to say why should i work them now for the same rate of pay that i get every other day of the year?????

I enjoy doing this job for now, as a means to an end. but i certainly would never allow myself to see it as a permanent job, or one to build a future on. theres nothing 'terrible' about it of course, but i have to say theres nothing fantastic about it either really. i go in to work, i enjoy the people i work with and the day is generally quite pleasant, just like any other customer service job ive had.

i'll always do the right thing by any company i work for because thats my work ethic, but in general, but i can honestly say that i dont feel any great loyalty or passion for the job & or 'Companies' that employ us as casuals. so once again i have to say that yes i totally agree with what you have said sydney s/h i imagine that we are much cheaper than full time employees. im just glad that i havent ever let myself believe that this is anything more than a 'nice enough' job to do until i finish studying work with a company that wants& understands the value of quality staff.

SydGirl

28th Oct 2005, 11:06

Jeesh andie74 I hope you are studying English!

Penalty rates as a MAM casual just simply don't exist. I mean seriously your hourly rate is not exactly peanuts now is it?

Frankly, I think you're in a better position being with MAM getting (what is it now??) $27 an hour for working a weekday as well as a weekend rather than getting $13 an hour during the week and double time on Sundays. Oh don't forget the lure of DTA on top of that as well.

As for loyalty, well the company doesn't want any loyalty from MAM casuals, this is exactly why they employ an outside labour hire company (ie. MAM) to do the work. What it comes down to is the mighty buck, loyalty doesn't even enter the equation.

No disrespect intended to MAM casuals, I'm just telling it how it is :)

SG
:E

speedbirdhouse

28th Oct 2005, 11:20

andie74,

my concerns about john howards efforts to casualise the workforce are that they inarguably undermine the living [and life] standards of a huge proportion of the workforce.

I understand business requires flexibity to manage the peaks and troughs of their labour needs and this is how the concept has largely been "sold" to the community.

The sad reallity is that business is using it as a tool to reduce costs by hiring vast numbers under these arrangements. Qantas/Dixon being a prime example.

Casual work suits you which is great but I guarrantee there is a large proportion of MAM casuals [and their families] who would kill for the stability provided by full time work.

Casualisation, IR changes and howard's march towards the Americanisation of Australia threaten to create a working poor such as this country has NEVER seen.
To what end?
So that business can increase their already record profits.

A sobering reality for those who don't know...........
The minimum wage in the US is roughly $5.80 USD an hour.

This rate explains why families at the bottom have to work two and three jobs in that country just to survive. Not to get ahead remember because they never can, but JUST TO SURVIVE.

Qantas has had and arguably continues to have longhaul crew staying in the lowest socio-economic area it can get away with in LA now and as crew we ride the local buses with the people who are victims of this social structure.

It is not pretty society and casualisation on the scale that Australia [and qantas] have implemented is a march down that path.........................

OZcabincrew

28th Oct 2005, 18:43

andie74,

I appreciate your comments. You are very lucky to have gotten in with the attitude that it's not something you want to do forever. You were obviously fully aware when you signed the MAM contract, what the conditions of pay were etc re penalty rates etc, so that one comes back on you, but like what has previously been said, MAM casuals don't exactly get paid ends meat. Can i ask if you get paid the same in your previousl casual positions, why did you choose to become a F/A and be a way from home on trips etc, working public holidays, xmas, new years (which is all fully part of the job etc)? There are people dying to get in and would literally do anything to become a F/A, even if it is a casual position. I've worked with someone that applied and got knocked back 32 times before they actually got the position, so this is a job that people dream to have and make a career out of. A flying position is like no other position on the ground, you can't compare it and even though management have made some absolutey stupid positions, a lot of people do have loyalty to the company and a passion and take pride in their job and who they work for etc. So all in all, to me anyway, it is a big deal.

Being casual does have it's benefits etc and downsides as does being full time, but as previously said, there are A LOT of casuals who are seriously hanging out to get full time, hopefully it happens soon, i would just hate to see the competition for the amount of positions offered!

Good luck with whatever direction you eventually choose.

Oz

captainrats

28th Oct 2005, 20:48

The days when flying offered a career are well and truly over.
Particularly as far as QF is concerned.
The technology changes mean you will fly about 5 years before you are burnt out both physically and emotionally.
Doing 20 + hours of duty will see to that.
Airlines will be glorified bus services(if they aren't already)
If America is anything to go by service will be minimal at best.
Safety will suffer as well as maintenance is exported to countries where manpower is less expensive and less competent.
Pax expectations are increasing just when they are paying less in real terms for their transport and airlines are definitely offering less.
The advertising and spin are just thinly veiled disguises for what is in reality a Greyhound bus service at altitude.
Nothing lasts forever..I certainly think I saw the best of it.

Pappa Smurf

29th Oct 2005, 00:45

Why do companies have casuals.

To meet the demands when loads are heavey and not have them sitting around getting paid when times are slow.
Thats the economical side,but these days how many jobs you see where its permanent casual for 6 or so months with maybe full time after that.
You may get someone who is never there ,doesnt work enough ,doesnt get on with anyone etc etc.

Now hire him fulltime from the start and then try and sack them------unfair dismisal--discrimination etc etc

Lot easier to start with casuals and if they meet the grade move them onto full time when a position becomes available..Less problems.

But why take a job then whinge about it ,unless the dole office made you do it.

andie74

29th Oct 2005, 03:10

hmmm......hopefully people expressing an opinion and their own feelings & views on issues that affect their life & livelyhood arent considered to be whingers????

ozcabincrew,

sorry if this is a bit long!!! but i want to try and answer your questions!

i decided to do this job bcos i had worked for a considerable time in my last job and wanted a change of scenery, i felt i was getting 'stale' doing the same thing for a bit too long- money isnt the only reason you leave a job and its not why i left. i for one am certainly not complaining about the job- i enjoy it, and i enjoy the people too. i was agreeing with what had already been mentioned, that it would certainly be cheaper to have us casuals. yes i did accept the job knowing the conditions (well most of them as some things appear to have snuck in over a period of time!) ..... I was just stating that bcos we dont get paid public hol rates, i personally dont work them (when given the choice) - thats all. and its not like there are hundreds of public hols in a year so its not really that big a deal. i didnt say that the pay was bad, i said it isnt fantastic, bcos i've had other jobs that paid the same. how many people in any industry would really be happy to work xmas day, boxing day & new years day for the same rate they get every other day??

i wholeheartedly agree with any statements made about 'A LOT of casuals who are seriously hanging out to get full time' - some of the people youre talking about are very good friends of mine. i was only speaking for myself. i can assure you i dont need reminding of how much it means to others & i know how frustrating it is. but like you yourself stated, we accepted a casual job and the conditions- and i know that i was told from the very beginning that there would be 'NO opportunity for full time work'-it was said at least twice throughout the recruitment process to me- and yeah that does suck for lots of reasons (ie casualisation of the workforce in general and all the issues that speedbirdhouse just mentioned) but..... that is what was being offered, Casual work. and dont forget, that when people such as myself applied for positions, we certainly had absolutely no idea of all the politics going on behind the scenes that are discussed in this forum.

so i havent ever let myself get caught up in the negativity of the full time work discussions bcos I made the decision to go ahead and accept this job knowing that it is casual. so by the same token if i was going to start feeling negative about wanting full time work then i'd rather just leave and find full time work elsewhere. full time work would be great, but its simply not available here- instead in the last 6 months i decided to go back to study again bcos i too eventually want full time work SOMEWHERE! im just making the best of the situation- like alot of us are.

im sure that lots of F/A's such as yourself do still have strong loyalties, and thats great- but surely there must be a reason you have this loyalty???? such as many years of good working conditions, high morale, just lots of memories of 'good times' and from what i read in this forum, a lot of F/A's are saying that those times are gone now? - i hear the more senior F/A's talk about this sort of thing all the time. i was simply saying that for many other people, that kind of loyalty doesnt have any opportunity to develop - and maybe thats true of lots of companies in todays workforce - not just Qantas. people will still go to work, and do a good honest days work for the company, but they simply wont have that same loyalty that people such as yourself have. it doesnt seem like a good way to run a workforce?? but its what Qantas and many others have chosen.

one thing i have to disagree with though (and i hope ive understood what you were saying- if not then disregard the following and apologies!!) is when you say that 'A flying position is like no other position on the ground, you can't compare it' - i agree if its all you've ever wanted to do and you finally get in its obviously going to be the best job in the world, but there are lots of other great jobs around 'on the ground' that people love just as much as you and other F/A's may love your job. my brother is a singer/musician who works 3 nites a week doing what he loves most in the world and also runs his own recording studio a couple of days a week. he works for himself, has lots of freedom & flexibility, makes great money and is passionate about it. so to him, his job is also the best.

speedbirdhouse- just for the record, personally i dont agree with casualising the workforce either, or the changes that john howard wants to make- i agree that long term it undermines the standard of living. if i wanted to get a mortgage right now with this job i probably wouldnt get one- and i know thats a big issue for lots of casuals. which is why im back studying part-time so that at some point i will have a secure job to raise a family on and build a life on.

OZcabincrew

29th Oct 2005, 06:59

andie74,

i am fairly new to Qantas, so therefore i don't have the knowledge of "the good old days", but i still enjoy what i do etc etc etc. What i meant when i said you can't compare it to any other job, i didn't mean someone who is a singer/musician, i meant within the customer service industry, i probably should have said that.

I've forgotten half of what you've written so i can't reply to anything more except, people do love this job as do people love other jobs and it all depends on what you're interested in. Like i wouldn't want to be a singer/musician (only cos i can't sing, lol), just doesn't interest me, probably like your brother wouldn't want to do our job. People have loyalty to the company for different reasons, like i said, the company has made some absolutely stupid decisions that a lot of people disagree with, but people have different opinions on things etc etc so therefore have a different view on what a career can offer. If you're looking for a career in this particular job which is going to resemble the "good old days" then you have the wrong idea, because times are a changing and it's not going to be like the good old days, but like i said it depends on what you're looking for in a career?

anyway, as long as you're enjoying it, doing the job right and having fun, then that's all that counts.

andie74

29th Oct 2005, 09:46

yeah i know what your saying ozcabincrew- as i said, i wasnt sure if i understood exactly where you were coming from with the comparison thing. if you havent been working in the industry long then good on you for having such a positive attitude- its nice to hear.

Tuner 2

29th Oct 2005, 10:24

speedbird,

$20k NZD = approx $18k AUD - not all that far from the truth I wouldn't have thought? Even on rosters of around 190-200 hours.
I have no vested interest in promoting any aspect of the AKL base. I was merely trying to answer a question.

As for the rosters, I've just taken a quick look at 6 or 7 different AKL based mates' rosters and the average projected hours comes to 191.

speedbirdhouse

29th Oct 2005, 10:42

What surprises me about those who post here with the attitude, " oh well , get with the program as the times are [not for the better] changing" is the apparent resignation that nothing can be done about it.

These changes are the result of 10 years of conservative government coupled with their new found senate control.

Wake up, read a newspaper for a change and inform yourselves about the political process in this country.

Alan Ramsey of "The Australian" wrote the following day after the last federal election-

"Never before in Australia's history have the Australian voters got it so wrong"................

---------------------

Tuner2,

you are right about the projected hours being around 190 per roster.
Its being called out on standby DURING the roster that has our KIWI friends doing 240 PLUS.

Allowances?

$10 000 AUD max.

Do you have ANY idea the rate of allowances in JNB, PVG, BOM and the like????

---------------------

papa smurf,

you certainly do live in Utopia.

Utopia would be a place where suitable casuals are transfered to full time positions after a period of time.

Qantas IS NOT Utopia.

On the contrary, Qantas has become [under dixon] somewhere FAR more Orwellian

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

mostie

30th Oct 2005, 02:06

Just in case people think that Speedbirdhouse is being alarmist, here is a cut and paste from yesterdays SMH.

It makes VERY sobering reading.............

WorkChoices a health risk, report finds
By Nick O'Malley Workplace Reporter
October 29, 2005
Page Tools

The Government's pending workplace changes will create a vast pool of low-paid workers with worse health and shorter life expectancy than their wealthier peers, prompting a general decline in health standards, a new study has found.

"There are direct linkages between some aspects of IR policy and health outcomes, especially in relation to infant/child mortality and development," says the report by the University of Sydney's industrial relations research centre.

Yesterday the International Monetary Fund's Asia-Pacific director, David Burton, wrote to the ACTU president, Sharan Burrow standing by its support for the changes, which are due to be introduced to Parliament on Wednesday. They would "improve the functioning of the labour market and help sustain Australia's strong economic performance", he said.

Citing studies by the British epidemiologist Professor Sir Michael Marmot, the university's report says workers with less control over their working life - such as those on contracts - and workers on low pay are more likely to suffer stroke, heart disease, cancer, mental illness and gastrointestinal disease.

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The report, titled The Shape of Things to Come and commissioned by Unions NSW, says labour deregulation like that proposed by the Government "has produced the same results everywhere it has been trialled: greater inequality, the loss of entitlements in low-skill and casualised work, low-wage jobs and fracturing working time arrangements".

It says inequality cuts health standards even in rich countries. "In the developed world, it is not the richest countries that have the best health, but the most egalitarian," the report said. For example the United States is the wealthiest nation but ranks 26th for life expectancy.

The report, which includes a survey of research into the effects of workplace policy on health in Europe and the US, says it is "reasonable to infer the proposed industrial relations reforms are likely to worsen overall population health, especially for those on the lower side of the labour market and social gradient."

It says white-collar employees who are not exposed to dangerous substances or conditions but have less autonomy are also at risk.

The report's author, Chris Briggs, told the Herald the creation of a pool of low-paid, low-skilled workers was the aim of the legislation, not a side effect.

"It is implicit in [Government] statements. They don't want to come out and say it, but when you look at New Zealand, when you look at America that is what you are talking about - large proportions of low-paid jobs," he said.

A second report, compiled by Marian Baird of the University of Sydney's business school, also for Unions NSW, says family time will be eroded by the reforms.

"The proposed changes are likely to undermine and alter employment rights and entitlements and will impact on the ability of workers to participate in families and communities," it says.

"Less regulation of working hours and removal of penalty rates means less chance of maintaining, even notionally, a 'day of rest' for the community."

"The industrial relations system made Australia somewhat special and the undoing of it is commensurate with the undoing of Australia's social fabric."

qcc2

30th Oct 2005, 09:13

a researcher from the anu will release this week a detailed study of the proposed changes to ir and how it will affect workers.
in short.
a race to the bottom
the only permanent jobs in qf in the future will be in nz/uk at very low rates or mam casuals. 5 years max and they want new blood. dont join as a carreer. its not worth it anymore. as a matter of fact if you are thinking of starting a family down the track go and find something else, quick.:(

OZcabincrew

30th Oct 2005, 12:52

i agree in a sense, if you're looking for a full time Flight Attendant career with Qantas based in Australia then you may find it a bit hard. In the future a lot of the recruitment will probably only be MAM casual or for the overseas bases (my opinion). If you are wanting a career with Qantas though, please don't let this hinder your enthusiasm for a career with QF.

Oz

Simon Templar

30th Oct 2005, 18:33

Careers with Qantas(as a flight attendant) are non existent,over ,finished...get it ?
Any assertions to the contrary regarding the Qantas Group and any of its subsidiary airlines is a myth.
Backdooring to mainline via any of these airlines is also providing false hope.
Transfers or career progression is an anachronism.
That is the reality.
To contemplate otherwise is self delusion.

ricciricardo

30th Oct 2005, 21:30

If anybody is wanting the security of full time employment with an airline in Australia it seems to be that you'll have to go with the regionals, ie Jetstar, NJS, eastern. Once you're employed you are able to put your name on the transfer to mainline list (career progression) and perhaps when you're a year or so from retirement age they'll make you an offer!

At least you'll be able to get a mortgage or a car loan......:O

qcc2

30th Oct 2005, 22:38

some of you may have seen the new ads run by the australian business council last night. guess what,geoff dixon and dame margret spend a bit of money contributing to those ads. and to add more pain for employees now you have to pay fuel levies, 20.- domestic and 35.- international per sector.
hint/ go online and book virgin or jetstar for about the same price.
another way of getting rid of staff travel alltogether.
do you think geoff or any of the m**s pay. of course not

Grove

31st Oct 2005, 00:30

Anyone who thinks securing a position through career progression via the regionals to QF may want to consider other options. The previous 3year E.B.A at Qantaslink/Jetstar saw only 8 crew take up positions with QF. I think most JQ crew [senior and junior ] hope that the chance to join QF will happen. I have serious doubts that day will never come!!

Mr Seatback 2

31st Oct 2005, 01:29

As we have read on other threads here, CP opportunities are few and far between, and is not unique to Jetstar. Eastern and Sunnies crew have also had to wait longer than is necessary for spaces to be made available - and even then, it's only because the FAAA jumped up and down about it.

The slide to the bottom continues in earnest...unlike the management bonuses, which seem to rise year in, year out above 3% p/a.

qfcsm

31st Oct 2005, 07:59

Guess I will be accused of FAAA bashing but here goes:

FAAA NEWSLETTER dated 28 October 2005
...
There appears to be an element of our members who perhaps thought that the FAAA was exaggerating the challenges that confront Long Haul arising from the fact that Qantas has less costly alternatives (Short Haul, Australian Airlines, Overseas Based crew and the increasingly likely use of Jetstar internationally) to utilize for international flying.

Any such notion should now be dispelled. The Perth base closure demonstrates in stark terms what can happen if we as a group refuse to be flexible in relation to such matters as the New York dispensation which is intended to protect our traditional international flying.

There is no threat implied or intended by the FAAA, nor do we believe that we are scaremongering...
Well what the??? No threat or intimidation???
Erroneous correlations like this are treasonable!

When are the FAAA going to learn that Dixon’s gloves are now well and truly off!
The time for negotiation has passed – how much more evidence is needed:

Dixon pledges QF money to support Howard’s IR changes
Hundreds of jobs already gone
Threats of thousands more to go off-shore http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/qantas-considers-exporting-3000-jobs-report/2005/10/21/1129775925328.html
Jetstar international
Pilots’ EBA claim for 3% requires offsets (effectively not even delivering CPI)
Perth base closure despite continual promises to the contrary
Threats of long haul flying going to bases if we don’t accept company demands
Disgraceful leave burning program and massive part-time to avoid offering redundancy
Unprecedented numbers of crew on trial under “disciplinary action”

Come on you three (sorry but the FAAA is now only 3 as branch council have no say – ask them) start listening to the reality.

And so not to be considered just negative, here are a couple of thoughts:

If QF reckons they can crew the JFK with AKL crew let them!
Why should we voluntarily breach hard fought for and earned EBA and OH&S conditions because it suits QF.
And what will suit QF next – no more double slips otherwise we give the flying to bases? VOTE NO TO THE DISPENSATION

Forget about the LAX accommodation issue and concentrate on matters of importance!
Frankly, and mark my words on this: the FAAA has a snowflakes chance in hell of winning once the commissioner has visited this pub. And if by some miracle the FAAA do win we will be back at Anaheim or San Pedro. I’m not saying the current hotel is perfect but it’s a whole world better than previous options.
But to the point, this is merely a distraction and one at this point in time that is too expensive to concentrate on. An FAAA win will be celebrated with grandiose jubilation while QF get on with the real mission of screwing all workers.

PS:
I loved the SMH headline that read “Qantas hands baton to Jetstar” http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/qantas-passes-baton-to-jetstar/2005/10/17/1129401197304.html
It should have read “Qantas bends over and accepts baton up arse from Jetstar”.

:bored:

qcc2

31st Oct 2005, 23:47

well said qfcsm,
when is the faaa going to wake up? think they are too busy partying with the little d***f in paddo.

Pegasus747

1st Nov 2005, 04:04

What amazes me about the above statement is the complete lack of comprehension about what exactly the FAAA leadership has been saying for over 12 months.

Clearly its time for some flight attendants to either leave or Qantas should start some whole sale sackings of the dead wood..

The people who need to wake up are the crew that live in the land that time forgot!!!!

The entire world has changed over the last 20 yrs, in particular in aviation. Long HAul and to a large extent Short Haul Cabin Crew have seen little change.

A few whinge about hotels and slip ports, but the service onboard has never been easier, passengers in J/C and P/C sleep in flat beds and hardly wake and in Y/C they have IFE theat keep them occupied. L/H are working an average of 23 hours a week for a gross salary including all allowances of about 70-80k pa.

i know this coz my fellow flight attendants are regularly telling the banks that to get ever larger mortgages.

If anyone thinks that they can earn that sort of money with the conditions we enjoy elsewhere then they should just leave and show the way to all their mates.

The vast majority of crew are looking to the FAAA to work with the Company to achieve job security. That will only be achieved if QF management thinks that;

A) Long Haul crew are worth keeping on
B) That the FAAA has the capacity to negotiate pragmatically and sensibly rather than just saying no to everything.
and C) that the FAAA remains viable as it has done over many years because more than ever with the new IR laws individual will need their Union even more.

If anyone thinks that the FAAA leadership can perform magic then they will have to wait for SAnta to bring them their next wish list its not going to happen.

If flight attendants think that crew can somehow "fight" Qantas as opposed to salvaging as much important stuff as they can whilst negotiating on less important things and ensuring some esmblance of job security then they are deluded.

For those doomsayers that say its all stuffed anyways and we are all going to lose our jobs i say this...LEAVE NOW..because you will ensure that Qantas does do that if you continue to bahave the way you are.

Our only hope is to last out the current management by carefully working with them without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Our EBA will be under attack when the new IR laws are passed. It may mean that the CAP on overseas bases is unenforceable. You wont be able to take industrial action so the only way forward is negotiation like unions have done in other countries where draconian laws were introduced.

Those workers who still have jobs and reasonable conditions negotiated. The domestic pilots in the 89/90 dispute are the best example of what happens when you get into a dispute that you cant win. They should have negotiated and they would all still have jobs.

When you see the new IR laws, and actually reflect how on balance our conditions are still excellent by flight attendant and community standards then perhaps you will understand some of the FAAA strategy for Job security

Simon Templar

1st Nov 2005, 06:08

While you make some salient points, some of what you say needs to be put into perspective.
$70-$80K is not an average.
Less than 20% of crew earn this type of money.To do so they are putting in a hell of a lot overtime.
The human body has physical limits.So the 23 hours a week you quote needs to be seen in the context of these limits and the stresses intercontinental flying places on our bodies.
The last ten years has been nothing but change.It certainly hasn't been boring.
I embrace change ..it keeps things interesting and allows us all to move forward.
I don't however embrace the malice in which QF management implements its change.
Recent engagement surveys are appalling.This is right across the company not just Cabin Crew.
We haven't seen technological change like this since 1981 when the SP was introduced.
I am a great supporter of the FAAA and its pragmatic approach.
We need to keep things in perspective.
We need to mindful of the effects that 20 hour plus tours of duty will have on all of us.
We need to be looking at increasing slip times after these sectors.
Limiting the number of these sectors per BP.
Increasing standown times when an "ultra"sector is a component of the pattern.
Payment for hours in excess of 15 need to be monetarily realistic.
All things need to be in balance.
At present its not looking that way.
Look whats happened in the states.The only Airline doing well is Southwest.
Their priorities:
1.Employees
2.Customers
3.Shareholders.(Fin Review story 2 weeks ago)
Staff surveys indicate loyalty and commitment and a high level of morale and motivation
We all earnt a lot less 25 years ago and morale commitment and motivation were exponentially higher.
Management treated employees like family and employees responded positively.
If QF management were more communicative and stopped treating staff as the enemy circumstances would improve enormously.
Lets see what happens when the "viagra driven dwarf" retires.
Things can only improve.
With staff engagement surveys as bad as ours one wonders how the company functions at all.

Pegasus747

1st Nov 2005, 06:29

Totally agree with you Simon_T,

in an ideal world the senior management of Qantas might recognise that a re-engaged work force would deliver untold benefits. Unfortunately those benefits do not reduce costs and costs, and productivity that equates to an overall cost reduction is all that counts in their minds.

We have to find a way of delivering some of that cost reduction without either making the job no longer worth doing for whats being offered or secondly in a way that doesnt involve the company out sourcing all of our jobs to O/S based crew or short haul or Jetstar international.

If the OS crew or the other Qantas group employees keep undercutting us for their own job security then its the spiral to the bottom that we have to try and avoid.

I dont think that having the view that Dixon and his management can get stuffed and we will just run along hanging on to the family silver will protect us for ever.

At some stage we need to take a wholesale look at the future of flying and decide whether we want to try and compete in some way with the others that want our work or get out of it all together,

Flying and flight attendants are going the way of the non existent manufacturing industry in this country. Now its not just Us in the flight attendant position but engineeers with their work going to asia, and pilots being sent to singapore and check in staff being replaced with computers.

Personally i cant believe Australians want to live in a country like that but i know for a fact that they dont give a rats ass as long as they can get a cheap ticket and a plasma made in china from harvey norman on a 4 yeat interest free deal.

Some time in the future someone will have to deal with the consequences of it all and i am sorry to say that many of us will be like the shoe makers and tv makers that used to be in australia unless either the ppl of australia or the goverment changes its policies,

In the mean time i hope the FAAA contunues to keep jobs in Australia as its highest priority in the hope that we can live to fight another day in better times

speedbirdhouse

1st Nov 2005, 06:38

An excellent post Simon Templar.

The thugs running QF who lack anything constructive in the way of management technique could learn a lot from the approach taken by those running Southwest.

Come to think of it. Southwest sounds much like how QF was before the poison dwarf took over.

Things don't look like at improving under Borghetti, AKA "Il Duce".

Especially given the recent comments he made at a company "roadshow'. He sadly appears to be just another one dimensional thug in the same mould as Dixon.

:yuk:

http://www.afrboss.com.au/magarticle.asp?doc_id=25150&listed_months=1

Oh BTW, I wonder if those running Southwest feel the need to have metal detectors and Xray machines at their annual general meetings ..................?

Is it me or has Qantas has become almost as dysfunctional as the poison dwarf running it????

Simon Templar

1st Nov 2005, 10:07

.......ESPRIT De CORP.
Any CEO worth his salt will tell you that great morale with result in a 10-15% productivity increase at zero cost.
The VDD is not a CEO worth his salt.
What ARE his credentials?
Who is this SOB?
How did he become the CEO of QF and turn a once proud Icon into a battlefield.
You don't have to be genius to cut costs and increase aircraft utilisation.
You do however need some savvy to encourage your employees to share your vision for the future.
You need to be damn clever to make effective and efficient use of your revenue base.
Dixon fails miserably on both counts.
Introduce some ESPRIT and invite your staff to share your vision and you can have a business that thrives and excels or......
You can have what the VDD has...3/5 of 5/8 of "F" all
NB.VDD :viagra driven dwarf.
If there is Karma in this life VDD is in for a rude shock.

westozflyer

1st Nov 2005, 19:01

I am totally offended by what the three 'stoogesses' who are running the FAAA said in their newsletter

The Perth base closure demonstrates in stark terms what can happen if we as a group refuse to be flexible

In the perth base, we were as flexible as they come.We put up with the bidding system not working [no help form either the FAAA or the company on that issue]. We suggested more dense pattern possibilities [ignored by the company and the FAAA] we allowed the bastardisation of our rosters, with little complaint, and still managed to do our job a hell of a lot better than sydney crew [read the satisfaction from customer surveys].

Good luck to those of you in Perth Shorthaul, we are coming and with a hell of a lot of seniority. Look forward to your Pursers trying to tell us what to do on a HKG ! It will be a laugh [oh and after my last paxing trip on shorthaul crewed flight, get ready for some lessons on how to provide proper service on an international sector!]

I am still trying to work out who shafted us the most; Shorthaul, Management or the Longhaul FAAA. Dont really care, at least I will get to write my rosters in the shorthaul base. And very glad to be getting away from the longhaul FAAA. Good luck to the MEL & BNE longhaul Bases, you will need it, your union cannot comprehend anything outside of Sydney!

Simon Templar

1st Nov 2005, 23:40

Westozflyer's post is understandable in its emotion.
But it also indicates how successful Dixon has been in dividing crew and pitting them against each other
Shorthaul against Longhaul
Base against Base
FAAA domestic against FAAA International.
This is why we are where we're at.No unity
Dixon didn't screw us...we screwed ourselves.
The current FAAA executive(longhaul)are to be applauded for undoing a lot of damage done by the 3 blind mice(Broome,Brem and Warner)
The situation we find ourselves in now had its birth 3 EBA's ago.
Its Game set and match. Dixon has won and we helped him by being naive and at times incompetent.
But most of all we were not united and largely driven by self interest.
I don't like it.I am not happy about it.
But as I have said before we need to negotiate with the hand we have been dealt.The new technology and Industrial Relations laws are coming whether we like it or not.
One last thought....any flight attendant who voted Liberal in the last election has compounded the problem.
Anyone who complains about these circumstances to me I ask them "who did you vote for?"
They quickly fall silent.
Latham may not have have been telegenic but let me assure you we wouldn't be in this situation if Labour was in power.
So folks before you start complaining and ridiculing others
WHO DID YOU VOTE FOR ?and who will you vote for next time.
Lets hope its not for the George Dubbya Clone we have now.

Pegasus747

1st Nov 2005, 23:49

The use of the word "Scabs" is not acceptable

crew-use-only

1st Nov 2005, 23:56

The use of the word "Scabs" is not acceptable

sydney s/h

2nd Nov 2005, 03:07

Seems your aggression is a little misdirected Westozflyer.

Why are you attacking the employees of the Perth S/H base? And also the CSM's that work there saying that you "Look forward to your Pursers trying to tell us what to do on a HKG ! It will be a laugh".

Go and in attack the Management team etc that made these decisions - not the people who have been employed to work there.

I occasionally work out of Perth and I am a CSM. God help you if you turn up with that attitude on one of my flights. I wont stand for it and hope no other crew do. If you wanted to try and give me grief for your base being shut down then i would put you in your place(and would expect any other CSM to do the same).

Your aggression is totally mis-directed towards the wrong people. Go and knock on the doors of the Managers that came to this decision to shut your base down and i'll be there with you. Most of us feel sorry for all of you and hope that the options that were given to you are suitable and you get to still enjoy flying - but leave your attitudes at the door of the aircraft.

OZcabincrew

2nd Nov 2005, 03:51

"Good luck to those of you in Perth Shorthaul, we are coming and with a hell of a lot of seniority. Look forward to your Pursers trying to tell us what to do on a HKG ! It will be a laugh [oh and after my last paxing trip on shorthaul crewed flight, get ready for some lessons on how to provide proper service on an international sector!]"

HAHAHAHAHA!

:rolleyes:

ps- i wonder how long you'll want to use your "seniority" on regional flying once you're short haul when you start losing even more money due to the allowances/hours etc? What's the bet after a while you'll be doing the same flying as the rest of the seniors like KTA, 4 legs, BME etc.

p m than sword

2nd Nov 2005, 04:06

Gday everyone. i should really be packing up my life right now but I couldnt help but add my 2 cents after what I have read.
I can understand westozflyer as i am just as LIVID as to what has been going on. So much stress in the last 12 months. Being told in a letter...the PERTH base will not close.

FACT: A hell of a lot of us were not busting to leave. We took the option a few months ago because we were fearful that these lying mongrels were not true to their words. We were right unfortunately.

FACT: Only a handful of people went to work during the stopwork. Hardly any. Im based here, believe me.It is their right to do it anyway, even if you and I dont like it.We dont live in Nth Korea.

FACT: We were shafted by shorthaul, with the int flying going to them and lack of band payments if we transfer. Nice one! When Jetstar start canibalising you, and then the new offshoot 'NOSTARS' start canibalising Jetstar, then where will we be?????

FACT: IF the Longhaul FAAA spent more money and time and discussion securing our base instead of spending it on whether the hotel accom in LAX is close enough to CostCo so they can get their cheap nappies and crap, maybe we would have a fighting chance.Lets face it, sure there are some poor souls around the hotel area, but it aint that bad. Being put out at Anaheim is!

For Gods sake if the short haul and long haul faaa,Aust air, Jetstar etc dont put their heads together soon, we are really screwed. If they dont, then I am leaving the union and we will play right into the company's hands.

Yes , we are all feeling pretty frustrated at the moment and angry but lets think this out and stop shafting one another. The company do a good job of it already!

Back to packing.

Pegasus747

2nd Nov 2005, 05:54

The use of the word "Scabs" is not acceptable

blueloo

2nd Nov 2005, 08:49

Is it an unhealthy sign, when a scab goes green?

Anyway..........Perth base closure and transfers

Does anyone know whether you must actually apply to change base (as in full base transfer application) now that Perth is closing (assuming you don't wish to be PER S/H) ?

If you "apply" for transfer does this mean you may lose "moving" benefits ($$$) as you have not applied for transfer, and are not being assigned?

speedbirdhouse

2nd Nov 2005, 09:53

Pegasus747,

you made a very relevant post.

Please repost the one that was "edited", omitting the unmentionable of course.

Cheers SBH

P.S. I'm guessing that the word "strikebreaker" may be used in it's place........?

P.S.S. FWIW I find the act FAR more offensive than the word.

mostie

2nd Nov 2005, 21:09

The following is a cut and paste from the flight deck forum-

Virgin Buys 10,000 Tamiflu Doses for Staff
SARS redux?

________________________________________

Wednesday, Nov. 2, 2005

Virgin Buys Tamiflu

Richard Branson, Chairman of Virgin Group Ltd. said today that his company is looking into machines and new technologies to put on aircrafts to kill germs in anticipation of a bird flu pandemic. He said his company has purchased 10,000 doses of the drug Tamiflu for his staff.

In response to questions about companies hording Tamiflu, Branson said, "We've
bought [Tamiflu] because our staff is on the front line."

Branson also said that despite Virgin's best efforts to protect staff and passengers, if the flu starts spreading person to person, "it will most certainly affect the airline industry."

---------------------------------

I have NO doubt that Dixon would see an outbreak of avian bird flu effecting it's frontline staff as more than a little fortuitous.

No redundancy payments to be made with rehires cheap and offshore........

Simon Templar

2nd Nov 2005, 21:56

Is he Kidding?
www.theage.com.au/news/business/unions-fears-take-flight-at-qantas/2005/11/01/1130823206384.html
Halfway down the article he refers to staff as "our people".
Since when?
What the...?

westozflyer

2nd Nov 2005, 22:45

sydney s/h

why am I angry at Shorthaul crew? Geez, I dont know, maybe it has something to do with the fact that shorthaul crew voted for an EBA that shut down the Perth Longhaul base. You made yourselves cheaper so we got shut. Undercut by you, I have had to make the choice of taking much lower wages [oh and on a 'b' scale bands system] or take my kids out of school and move them east. I have made my decision. Oh and your carry on about not taking crap from ex-long haul perth? Dream on, I have taken it to many a real manager [ read; not a domestic purser] and survived, I have seen a lot of how domestic pursers run cabins of late.The ones I have seen are not fit to operate an international sector. You people should have thought about what you were getting into before you voted to take our flying.From what I have seen domestic crew cant really manage it. I will run rings around your pursers, and they seriously wont know what's hit them.Have you ever wondered why domestic pursers are paid less than longhaul managers [and supervisors!]maybe cause you are not as skilled?What are you gonna do? stand me down?delay a flight over it?Sorry, domestic crew are so at the beck and call of management, I think most would rather tuck their tails between their legs than cause a delay.I look forward to the challenge, and no I dont give a toss if I end up in that quasi-manager's office, who gets fired in this company, particularly for pointing out how bad the domestic crew provide an international service? Jam it! Oh and I look forward to flying with you too, I love making fools of pursers!

Oh and Ozcabincrew, I will do what I wish in regards to bidding, do the long sectors when I want, and the occasional HKG and SIN when I need a rest and shopping, I have my choice of everything - how's your seniority going?

OCCR

2nd Nov 2005, 23:21

westoz.
You hit it on the head, I agree with everything you said, people will say it radical but you have stated the truth.
Yes you have been shafted and its true what you said, the people in s/haul voted in that eba.
But dont forget management in your vendetta, they are the ones that started this and s/haul were their lapdogs....

oh and ozcabincrew, how easily you have ******edited************************************************ .

I wish I was on the flight westoz, give it to them! bloody traitors

SydGirl

3rd Nov 2005, 02:19

Popcorn anyone?

SG
:ouch:

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 02:51

I was wrong...............Qantas IS as dysfunctional as the "viagra driven dwarf" running it.

Simon Templar

3rd Nov 2005, 03:51

We got screwed by self interest pure and simple.
Dixon correctly identified Shorthaul as the weakest link.
They shafted us and themselves..no mean feat of stupidity.
What will they do in their next EBA?
Probably blow their other foot off.

Warp57

3rd Nov 2005, 06:18

The Federal Government announced its anti- employee industrial laws yesterday.

The Qantas unions have endorsed a campaign against these laws and a joint Qantas unions newsletter is to be issued to union members. The Long Haul FAAA posted the newsletter yeserday on its web site and I received an email from the FAAA (long haul) yesterday too.

However, the FAAA- SHORT HAUL is not going to participate!

Im for the FAAA getting together but what a pathetic and spineless lot of senior officials in the Short Haul FAAA.

The most basic and fundamental attack is being prepared by Howard ......and the short haul officials sit back and aren't even prepared to issue a newsletter to their members.

TIME FOR A BROOM TO SWEEP AWAY THE CURRENT SPINELESS SHORT HAUL FAAA LEADERSHIP.

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 06:46

Is it any wonder Warp57 that there is such widespread suspicion that the shorthaul FAAA have been bought off by Qantas management.........?

Chilling news today that the new anti-employee industrial laws have a provision that allows employers to sack staff [and re-employ] without recourse providing it is done so for "operational reasons".

"operational" can be defined as econonic, structural, organisational and the like.

Darth Dixon aka The Viagra Fuelled Dwarf must be rubbing his hands with glee...................

------------------

Anybody interested in protesting these Orwelian IR laws would be well advised to join the- NATIONAL DAY OF COMMUNITY PROTEST on November 15th.

THE VERY FABRIC OF OUR SOCIETY AND THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF OUR CHILDREN ARE AT STAKE.

Visit- www.actu.asn.au

Wed Webbing Woop

3rd Nov 2005, 07:43

Just heard that the boys ( and girls ! )-Techies have signed off their EBA.....only just.

Now bring on Jet*.

Guess they will be getting there own tea and coffee on Jet *

Geoff and his merry men must be sittting back and saying ,:
" there goes another bunch of lemmings......this Union bashing is fun .......next S/H Faaaa EBA ..........easy peeezie -done deal."

"our bonuses for 2005-2006 are looking even better now !! "

This year would have to go down as a milestone.

They have the gall to send us all this 85 years birthday crap in QF news ....whooopy do. What is there to celebrate??????

Being screwed !!!!!

Bolty McBolt

3rd Nov 2005, 09:29

On the subject of EBA votes.
I was chatting with some your S/H brethren in regard to the international flying they do.
I asked specifically about the 15hr sectors anticipated on the Bombay sectors and was told the following by several persons at once, simultaneously, all together at the same time...

S/H are currently in negotiation with QF about all international flying, long sectors and the crossing of time zones.
These issues will be resolved in the next EBA.
Are QF S/H the only group to have their EBA still outstanding?
Are these people correct in their understanding?

Many of the S/H people I have spoken with that are checked out on the BUS but have done no international flying. When I enquired how/why. I was told its an easy thing to avoid.

What are the panels thoughts ???
Bolty

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 09:41

Shorthaulers are a blindingly selfish and shortsighted lot.

The most junior shorthaulers get rolling blanklines and there are enough casuals [1/3rd of the total it is rumoured] that anyone who can bid doesn't have to do much of the unpopular flying.

This explains why the casuals do so much of the international flying.

Hard work just isn't very popular.............

The sooner both International FAAA [oops sorry, Longhaul FAAA] get together WITH the shorthaul FAAA the better off we will ALL be.

As Simon mentioned.

It'll be very interesting to see if they, "blow their other foot off".

SIN- DRW- ADL- SYD- AKL............?

For $1000 one off payment the shorthaulers would vote for it.:}

Dogs_ears_up

3rd Nov 2005, 13:34

God, it has been fascinating watching the great Qf debate here. It has been like watching the Dinosaurs after the asteroid hit the earth. They're dead already but don't even know it yet. The electronic message hasn't travelled from the tip of the tail to the very small brain.

The simple truth for you Qf longhaul folks is that you priced yourself out of the market some time ago. The world moved on and the LoCo's changed everything for ever. There are always people who will do more work for less money, in any job. If you had the smarts to know this you might still be viable.

Those of you who post regularly here - Doesn't it bother you that everything is always everybody elses fault and never yours. Its the Union, its the Pilots, its the Managers, its the Government, its the Competitors - no, hang on, now its the shorthaulers. If you gave up a small fraction of the energy that you give to fighting each other to fighting for the cause, you might have a chance. As it is your senior managers must find it hard to get up off the floor from laughting. And all the time the electronic message gets closer to the little brain.

A job loss is a tragedy for anybody - my heart goes out to those Qf staff who are affected through no fault of their own and who know better than to winge in here. The crews in Europe have worked out what is going on in the business some time ago, and have gone through all the pain - with more to come. The USA still has the pain to come thanks to chapter 11. In australia you are going through it now. Those who survive in the future will be those who can see the future and adapt. Those who won't survive are here in this forum, hissing and spitting at everybody - it wont help them in the end.

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 19:32

And Qantas continues to post record profit, after record profit, after record profit.

Your post, dogs ears up is full of rhetoric and nothing else........................

Longhaul havn't priced themselves out of the market as you have disengenuously suggested.

Rather Qantas have transferred the work to a group who have foolishly agreed to do it for less.

Now it would seem they are waking up to the fact that international flying under the conditions they have agreed to isn't all its cracked up to be.

Oh BTW, had you considered a job with the Federal Liberal Party. I hear they are looking for advocates for their anti- employee IR laws..........................

How does it go?

"Oh sorry, you've "priced yourself out of the market" [read, we have found someone who will do your work for less], sign this AWA or security will walk you to the door "

Simon Templar

3rd Nov 2005, 19:47

Ok my English friend instead of commentary on Qantas,how about you make some observations about BA.
They have more crew on a jumbo.
Receive more in allowance.
Are paid more (exchange rate allowed for)
All this is because they have an excellent association and are united.
The UK does not have a very extensive shorthaul net work as the place is so small.
No room for treachery from shorthaul crew.
Two things lead to our renumeration.
1.The Australian government floated the Australaian dollar in 1984.
2.The Company "forced" a bid system on us in 1988.
This reduced our standown from 75% to 50 % and paid us an hourly rate.A rate they introduced not us.
Now they complain.
In 1983 my allowances were worth nothing and I got paid peanuts.I didn't mind I loved the job and Qantas.
I had a second job(like most of us)as cruise director on one of the larger boats cruising around the harbour.
So my pommy friend do a bit more research before you open your gob.
BTW what do YOU do to earn a crust?

ditzyboy

3rd Nov 2005, 20:35

TIME FOR A BROOM TO SWEEP AWAY THE CURRENT SPINELESS SHORT HAUL FAAA LEADERSHIP.

One really does wonder about the strategy of the FAAA Domestic/Regional (read "QF Short Haul and screw everyone else") Division.

Pegasus747

3rd Nov 2005, 20:51

THe common thread in all the drama in flying at Qantas seems to be the spineless incompetent leadership of the Domestic Branch of the FAAA. THe current PResident of Short Haul has taken a position in the Long Haul London Base and hasnt even got the integrity to resign.

At best she should now be a member of the International Division of the FAAA and ineligble to even be a member of the Domestic DIvision at worst she is an example of whats rotten in the state of the Short Haul Division.

THe current Short Haul Union is actually run by an indistrial officer with the Federal Secretary running after him like a dutiful labradour.

Time to go the lot of you !!!!

sydney s/h

3rd Nov 2005, 21:01

westozflyer,

Why dont you take a moment to read back over your response and see that you have serious aggression issues.

What are you gonna do? stand me down?delay a flight over it?

The short answer - with you attitude....YES.

mrpaxing

3rd Nov 2005, 21:07

PERTH CSM/CSS YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY NOW.

Qf offered to have transfered csm in their current category to sh, the faaa lh agreed but sh union blocking it. so here is a great opportunity to legally take against the shorthaul union.
1) bring the case to the anti-discriminations board attention.
2) taking legal action against shorthaul union (what is essentially the same job, same aircraft now)
3)take legal action against individual shorthaul excecutives for trauma, suffereing, etc.
4)css can also claim what is essentially the same job but they want to pay you a lower wage.

this is a real opportunity to set thing straight for the future.

you are in a no loose situation, even qf backs you on that one.
have a go, i certainly would.

Simon Templar

3rd Nov 2005, 21:17

Shorthaul has always had a self esteem problem.Much like the "short" little brother living in the shadow of the more sophisticated first born sibling.
All this stupidity is really about attention seeking and an "I'll show you" attitude.
In trying to pull down longhaul they are denigrating their own conditions.
The next EBA will more than likely compound the stupidity and errors of their last.
Most people in shorthaul were there because of the family friendly flying.
Those days are over.
You will work a lot harder,be away longer and earn less.
Absolutely outstanding.
Start looking for good divorce lawyers..you're going to need one.
Shorthaul is dead....long live regional(not)
Why not just combine the lot?
With the seniority in longhaul we would do all the short flying and the intelligensia of shorthaul could do all the rest.
I think I'll ring VDD.
Maybe I'll get an incentive bonus or a new car like the shothaul FAAA executive received.
Well,...they must have received something.
You would have to be a total imbecile to do it(sellout) for nothing.
Then again we are talking shorthaul.
"Short" on everything..integrity credibility honesty and intelligence.

sydney s/h

3rd Nov 2005, 21:34

I dont know if shorthaul is dead but is certainly changing...bigtime.

But if shorthaul is dead then where does it leave longhaul. This is not a dig...i actually feel sorry for l/h. I never voted for the last eba and in general avoid regional patterns (only one regional to date - and not by choice).

Seriously - where will QF longhaul fly to? A huge chunk of Asia is looking like being covered by s/h, Mumbai (****) could be heading our way, Jetstar is cutting into the Tasman's, Australian is possibly taking more - eg. Honolulu etc...

It leaves Frankfurt, Sth Africa, US, limited Asian sectors and 1 a day to the UK.

You will find that in the S/H base in Sydney the overwhelming majority did NOT vote for the last eba and wont for this one. You have to remember that a massive amount of the Syd S/H base are ex longhaul - i heard figures in the 70% range. They certainly didnt vote to become an international hostie again - thats what they escaped.

Times are changing.... scarey.

QFinsider

3rd Nov 2005, 21:46

All of us who loved this once fine airline are not only shattered we are truly f*cked.

Welcome to the brave new world.

I didn't vote for the Gimp (Howard)
I didn't vote for the EBA7

It will not stop until there is a change of government- if ever. That's why lil Johnny is smiling

sydney s/h

3rd Nov 2005, 21:52

Did anyone see the top 20 ads on tv last night?

Number 1 was the Qantas ad. No surprise - i reckon it is an incredible ad. Any why? Because people they interviewed said how it made them feel Australian etc...

One girl said that she felt like she was already home when she walked through the terminal when overseas and saw the red and white tail.....

Pity when she gets onboard she is then greeted by a bunch of non-aussies.

Dogs_ears_up

3rd Nov 2005, 22:00

Half a dozen posts later, and not much further on, except that we have learned that shorthaul lives in the shadow of the more sophisticated first born siblingThe arrogance is breathtaking.

Look, I wont hang around after this post for a protracted argument - there's no point - there are none so blind as those that choose not to see. Besides - its too easy to swat me away as not being an australian (if only it was that easy with those actually employed by Qf @ LHR & BKK - does your distaste for "non-aussies" extend to 1st/2nd generation immigrant citizens, or just to those who dont comply with your own personal version of what makes an australian?)

One last time, for the rednecks in here - doesn't it strike you as just a little bit worrying that you know better than your employer, your government, your union and a majority of your working colleagues? Isn't there just the smallest chance that some of them may be on to something? If youre so right, and everybody else is so wrong, how come that you seem to do so badly whenever things get put to the vote?

End of story for me now - we have enough problems of our own over here Ill leave you to get on with yours

Simon Templar

3rd Nov 2005, 22:02

Jamie Packers dad(Kezza)owns Channel Nine.
Jamie now sits on the board of Qantas.
When compiling the info for this programme how did they reach the conclusion that the QF ad was the best?
Simple, VDD and Jamie had a beer at the Buena Vista Pub in Mosman.
Hey presto QF has the best ad.
Puke!
How transparent.

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 22:06

"The arrogance is breathtaking."

What arrogance?
Oh, having an "original contract" BA CC member telling QF longhaul that they are overpaid?

That is arrogance.

You have no understanding of the issues facing ALL workers in Australia.

Prique.

Dogs_ears_up

3rd Nov 2005, 22:08

Sorry to rain on your parade - I'm not BA (oh dear, wrong again - feels bad doesnt it!!!)

Simon Templar

3rd Nov 2005, 22:12

Sure they are onto something
!.How to increase their incentive bonuses
2.How to screw the workers.
The Earl of Shaftesbury(a pommy)would be turning in his grave.
Dogs when you can't construct an argument what do you do?
Resort to emotive name calling...redneck.
How enormously naive you are to even contemplate that Governments and employers are infallible and therefore know what is best for their children(electorate/employees)
I have a bridge for sale....interested.?
BTW Dogs I didn't say you were BA.
I asked you:
1.To make an observation about them(BA)
2.I asked you what you did for a crust
......and no response to either.
The biggest problem the UK has, is that it has you, as one of its citizens.

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 22:40

"I'm not BA (oh dear, wrong again - feels bad doesnt it!!!)"

About you being BA?
Not in the least............

speedbirdhouse

3rd Nov 2005, 23:50

The following is a cut and paste from todays Australian-

Michael Costello: The industrial relations bill is a declaration of class war

November 04, 2005
FANS of television poker tournaments will be familiar with the sight of the gambler pushing all their chips to the centre of the table, declaring: "I'm all in."

In the parliamentary poker game this week that gambler is John Howard. With his "WorkChoices" industrial relations bill Howard has bet his prime ministership on seizing the power of the independent umpire and putting it entirely in the hands of business.

The change is massive - at 687 pages, literally as well as substantively. The change is extreme, giving workers just one choice when facing employers in negotiations over pay and conditions: take it or leave it.

Howard has gone "all in". The bill is proof that the marshmallow advertisements soft-soaping the changes with voters are as deceptive as they could possibly be.

Australian Workplace Agreements will now overwhelmingly become the terms under which people are employed, not awards or enterprise bargains. Before, there wasn't much incentive for employers to move employees on to AWAs because the overall value of the agreement made had to be at least that of the award.

Howard knows that employers will rush AWAs now that his legislation removes the "no disadvantage" test, which has hitherto stopped business undercutting overall award pay and conditions. Employers will now be able to say: "If you want a job here, forget penalty rates, forget leave loadings, forget redundancy pay and public holidays - all you'll get is the minimum wage, annual leave, 10 days sick leave, the 38-hour week and unpaid parental leave." The rest can be gone with a stroke of a pen - if you want the job.

Then there's security of employment. Howard says the new legislation only applies to people who want a job, not those already in jobs.

Under this legislation the employer's power to dismiss at will is virtually untrammelled. Even those who are theoretically entitled to the unfair dismissal provisions won't really be protected because under the new law people can be dismissed for any operational, technological or restructuring reason, without redundancy pay unless their employment contract specifically provides for it.

If Howard is right and people already in jobs are better off, the legislation gives employers this powerful option: sack your staff and rehire on lesser wages and conditions. Within a couple of years at the outside you can be sure that penalty rates, shift allowances, public holidays and the like will disappear.

As for the minimum wage, which is supposed to underpin this system, we know that if, since 1997, Howard had had his submissions to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission accepted, the real minimum wage would have fallen. This would, of course, have put downward pressure on everyone's wages, not just those on the minimum. It looks as though the bill eliminates any requirement for the laughably named Fair Pay Commission to include considerations of fairness in its decisions.

If you think the unions will be able to ride to your rescue, forget it. If this legislation does one thing, it completely destroys the power of unions. Strikes will in practice be ineffectual, even in the unlikely circumstance that they are lawful. For a strike that has any impact on an employer - and if it doesn't, it's not much use as a strike - can be declared illegal. The powers given to the minister and to the Office of the Employment Advocate are wide-ranging and arbitrary and will work in practical terms entirely against employees and unions and entirely in favour of employers.

The bizarre thing is that all of this is done in the name of deregulation. Yet the legislation's 687 pages are highly regulatory. It sets out what can and can't be included in agreements in terms that are in part prescriptive and detailed, and in part open-ended at the whim of the minister.

There's a terrific irony here. Bob Hawke got elected in 1983 on the theme of reconciliation by painting Malcolm Fraser, correctly at the time, as a deeply divisive figure. Howard has worked hard since he resumed the Liberal leadership in 1995 to cultivate the image of the moderate, reasonable man, whose aim is to create a "relaxed and comfortable" society. It has paid big political dividends.

Yet more and more, his Government and leadership is based on creating division and conflict. All his instincts now flow from the arrogance of power. He is doing these things for one reason: because he can. This legislation is not about economics or productivity - it is about enshrining the power of the boss at the expense of working men and women. This bill is a declaration of class war - executive power acquired and used on behalf of the strong, against the weak.

We won't know until the 2007 election whether Howard has bet the house on a winning hand, or one more like that which led inter-war conservative prime minister Stanley Melbourne Bruce to lose not only the election but his own seat after a similar employer-biased tilt at industrial relations reform. But what we do know now is whose side Howard is really on. It isn't the battlers'.

------------

Is it any wonder that the VDD is contributing Qantas's profits to the business council's propaganda campaign?

RideTheWave

4th Nov 2005, 04:44

Reading through SOME of the entries by Cabin Crew who HAVE CHOSEN to move to Short Haul is sad.

Firstly - Who gave you that superiority complex? Guess it is self appointed as it is deserving

Secondly - "You will not be told what to do by a Short Haul CSM". If you are professional then why would you need any direction as your deliver The Service Signatures and Standards and Safety requirements always. Don't be in fear of being pulled up unless you fail to. I am sure you have many many short cuts you make in the cabin/service -NA - there is only one way and that is per procedure

Thirdly - Seniority - So that is your latest baton to run with - God love ya.

Forthly - "Short Haul have taken OUR flying" - So YOU own flying- Humm!!!!!

Fifth - Short Haul FAAA V Long Haul FAAA - Both Unions are responsible for protecting the work of their members. Short Haul seems to be doing well - Doesn't it??? As traditional domestic flying is being passed on to Jetstar our flying is increasing. Work with Qantas and remain employed - they are YOUR employer.

What the hell are you up to. Put your anger into having a good life and enjoying every day.

If Qantas is pissing you off so much please allow your professionalism, dedication and expertise be a gift to another employer.

Get back to us all in a year to brief us on the hours you have worked, the monies you have earned, the holidays you have had, the benefits you have gained, etc, etc...

We MUST all work together as a team at Qantas. There is NO time for an inflated EGO. We all do the same job. We are here to earn a living and have a good life while doing so. Join the group of CABIN CREW WHO LOVE THE JOB OR LEAVE.

Have a nice day.

See you on line.

Simon Templar

4th Nov 2005, 05:12

Yes we DID own that type of flying.
Longhaul/International whatever you want to call it.It WAS ours.
The company had been at us for years to do shorthaul/domestic flying we declined.
Occasionaly when shorthaul capacity was short we would run a jumbo up and down the east coast or across to Perth.
Trips you lot didn't enjoy anyway.
We respected your circumstances and your flying.
The same courtesy was not extended to us.
Our network is shrinking for two main reasons
1.QF management have got no idea about pioneering new routes or how to be competitive.
2.The wetbacks from shorthaul
If you have a look at the background of some the senior management in this company you will find many are ex TAA.
They lived for years in a cosy duopoly with Ansett.
They weren't required to be be innovative or competitive.
A zero skillset for running an international airline in an incredibly competitive environment.
The same zero skillset applies to shorthaul doing international flying.
You have absolutely no idea how to operate a longhaul sector or solve associated problems.
The shorthaul/anal attitude toward groundstaff is becoming legendary throughout Asia.
Groundstaff have asked who they need to talk about the unprofessional behaviour of shorthaul Pursers(they are not CSMs bootlaces)
We have obliged them with this information.
Take a good look at yourself.
All those years of duopoly have made you complacent and recalcitrant.
Wake up and get with the programme!!

Wed Webbing Woop

4th Nov 2005, 09:19

Totally agree with you Ride The Wave.

The Perth Base is past tense-they WERE a great bunch of people that were betrayed by the "lies and deceit" that is a Hallmark of the Red Rat these days.

As I have previously stated : the flying that I idi with the Perth base was a real treat. They have been treated appalingly, but in 24 months time when we're tearing each other apart with EBA #8 ( if thats what they will call it then ????@@!@$%$%% )......Perth L/H will be a distant memory.

Watching and reading about the proposed legislatation ( Work Choices) I for one feel that the end of life for ALL crew ( as we know it ) is nigh !!!! Howard and his criminal mates have effectively handed big business a mandate to crush all Unions and resistance to fair working conditions. I am preparing for life after Qantas( going back to my previous profession ) because I don't think our pay pay & conditions will be "tolerated " by the new order.

God help any one with "off spring" ...............if ever there was an excuse for contraception-=WORK CHOICES. The next generation will be screwed.

I'm bailing -12months P/T....hopefully-then I'm outta here, in search for am employer that treats its people with RESPECT & DIGNITY.

sydney s/h

4th Nov 2005, 09:24

Say what you will Mr Simon Templar...but... my uniform, my pay and my little name badge all says Customer Service Manager

...oh and dont forget my level that is above yours for getting me on the aircraft when i'm on staff travel!

It does matter what you say, call me a purser or whatever...it's all in a name anyway.

At the end of the day buddy, you'll be probably working under me one day anyway.

See you on 4 legs....or maybe a HKG, SIN, etc etc .... You can come and see what hard work is.

Simon Templar

4th Nov 2005, 09:47

Sydney S/h
You make a lot of assumptions
Now that I know you are a Purser(3 steps below a CSS in ability)my stafftravel category is way above yours.
Lets put you in charge of a jumbo and send you to LAX
It would be like putting a neanderthal in charge of a Phantom.
In life you earn respect..it is not given.
You have yet to earn yours.
My little friend I will never be under you.
Although the thought is not without merit
God this red is good...Wynns Coonawarra Estate Cab/Sav/Merlot...absolutely delicious

SydGirl

4th Nov 2005, 10:13

Did I just interrupt a pissing contest?

For goodness sakes grow up. Direct your vitriol at the management who are playing the two divisions up against each other, not to the individual.

Frankly I don't give a rats posterior whose role is more mighty and what priority you get on duty or staff travel. Who cares? You are doing different roles for a different purpose.

Start behaving like mature adults. A little debate is fine but do we really have to denegrate to this childish discussion?

Ta
SG
:}

Simon Templar

4th Nov 2005, 10:20

She made it personal.
She alluded to stafftravel.
I was generalizing.
Targetting no one person in particular.
Your response is indicative of the behaviour I was alluding to.
Obviously this discussion is a little above you.
Oh look...the sandpit is free..go girl.
Who moderates this forum?
Oh I know...now I'm in trouble.
Bugger..another bloody name change

EAAFA

4th Nov 2005, 10:37

SydGirl,
Please don't waste your time replying to Simon Templar. The best way to deal with those who are legends in their own minds is to ignore them.

Simon Templar

4th Nov 2005, 10:49

Such fantastic repartee.Wow!
Now,back to the point.
Your next EBA is looming.Have you given it any thought?
What are the issues?
Are you happy with the previous EBA?
You are about to do DRW Mumbai.
If you are not careful it will get a lot worse.
Personally I adapt.
I really don't care what happens to you lot.
Its just that that you are so naive.
Bambi dazzled by headlights comes to mind.
Whatever the company does I will find something that suits me.
Maybe I am becoming sentimental and do feel sorry for "The weakest link"..shorthaul/regional whatever.
Ring Shayne Nealon...she protected you for 25 years.
Until, she too sold out.

TightSlot

4th Nov 2005, 16:30

Who moderates this forum?
Oh I know...now I'm in trouble.

Not quite yet, but you are getting real close to being a blip on my fire-control radar!!!

;)

Simon Templar

4th Nov 2005, 20:22

Ok TS,
I'll tone it down.

cartexchange

4th Nov 2005, 22:47

ride the wave

what are those pills youre on called, I want some!

speedbirdhouse

4th Nov 2005, 22:56

Not sure what the pills are but be sure that they come from QCC4 or 5.........................

RideTheWave

5th Nov 2005, 03:40

Not sure if it is a pill

As I focus on it, it appears to be getting bigger

Is it the light at the end of the tunnel

Hope so

I just hope it is not another train heading this way

Question - Do you enjoy the Job??

If yes, get back to that - enjoying the job

If no, move on and stop the attacks - you are better than that

Simon Templar

5th Nov 2005, 03:57

What exactly is your light at the end of the tunnell..Retirement?

speedbirdhouse

5th Nov 2005, 04:04

Quote-

"if yes, get back to that - enjoying the job

If no, move on and stop the attacks - you are better than that"

-------------------
Whats the matter? Feeling a little heat. Having difficulting finding FA's that smile???

Don't like the fact that Qantas is FINALLY getting the CC that they deserve?????

Cause and effect........just cause and effect.

In case you morons havn't twigged yet?

The ball is in YOUR court, not ours...................

blueloo

5th Nov 2005, 04:23

Anyway..........Perth base closure and transfers

Does anyone know whether you must actually apply to change base (as in full base transfer application) now that Perth is closing (assuming you don't wish to be PER S/H) ?

If you "apply" for transfer does this mean you may lose "moving" benefits ($$$) as you have not applied for transfer, and are not being assigned?

GalleyHag

5th Nov 2005, 09:16

Its was all quite on the long haul v short haul battle, now the Perth base closure is announced and its all on once again.

As other short haulers and I have pointed out in the past the regional flying was sold to us as a shared arrangement on the A330, this was a new aircraft which wasnt covered by the divisional flying agreement.

We were certainly not told this would result in the closure of long haul bases or this was the companies long term intentions and as much as I disagree with a lot of decisions made by our union I highly doubt they even knew this would be the case.

The regional flying we do out of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane is nothing in the big scheme of things. Long Haul flight attendants have given away more flying through their own hand and with the assistance of your own union than we could ever dream of, such as the LHR, Bangkok and Auckland bases. I wonder if you still had access to all of the flying undertaken by these off-shore bases which you willingly agreed to be established would you care about the Hong Kong flying we do from the east coast.

You are correct speedbirdhouse the flying has been transferred to another group within Qantas is this any different from transferring your flying as long haulers like to call it to Australian Australians which was established with the support and assistance of your own union on salaries and conditions well below your own. Should short haulers be knocking on the door of Jetstar and Jetconnect for taking our flying? No because we are realistic enough to know we dont own the flying.

You also state speedbirdhouse that the sooner both the International FAAA and short haul FAAA get together the better off we will all be. Well if I am not mistaken we were all together but as noted on a previous thread Qantas long haul crew didnt like the fact that Ansett Flight Attendants were making decisions about their life and future therefore it was split into the unions we now see today. If long haul remained united with short haul way back than we wouldnt be seeing short haul doing your flying right now and we would have all been better off as you say I agree 100%.

Simon Templar you are correct it was your flying, long haul firstly gave this away to Bangkok and Auckland and now London. How can you claim ownership to flying that you give away. If you are prepared to give up your flying why shouldnt other divisions of the company gain access to this when new aircraft are introduced such as the A330.

You are wrong a lot of crew enjoy flying up and down the east coast and to Perth and after Ansett a lot of our money trips for junior crew were removed and replaced by the 747. Clearly we were unhappy at the loss of income but respected we didnt own the flying, there was a major down turn internationally due to Sept 11 and a lot of long haul positions were at risk. However when we wanted additional tasman flying after things picked up again to make up for long haul undertaking 747 domestically under the divisional flying agreement your union went off to the IR commission because Qantas allocated us some of your Auckland trips. Therefore I really dont think you respected our circumstances and flying at all. I firmly believe a lot of courtesy has been extended to long haul especially during 2001/02 when a significant number of long haul crew were transferred to short haul to avoid them loosing their job.

I am not going to get into petty disputes about who can and cannot operate internationally better. I see no difference in a long haul and short haul CSM operating an A330 up to Asia. Clearly I cant comment on the 747 as I have never operated that aircraft.

Westozflyer I do feel for you and all the crew in Perth but at least you were given options it could have been a whole lot worse if you were given nothing except the thanks and here's your cheque letter.

I generally have the greatest respect for all my fellow crew but to continually blame short haul for taking some Hong Kong's out of the east coast and for the closure of the Perth long haul base is way off the mark when you take into consideration what your own division has done to itself.

Simon Templar

5th Nov 2005, 09:42

A most eloquent piece of naive nonsense.
You neglected to mention why shorthaul voted to penalise those transferring by having Bans payments reduced.
You also neglected to mention that transfers are a two way street.
I don't begrudge those very senior (thirty +years)shorthaulers coming across to spend their last years of flying shopping in Europe and New York.
The amount of regional flying you do will continue to grow.Soon you will be working harder than us and for a lot less renumeration.Bombay is just the beginning
More fool you.
You are correct about Ansett Shorthaul.
Many of us wanted the FAAA to be company based not industry based.
It would be tantamount to Qantaslink dictating your terms.
Whats done is done.
You are being presented with a second chance ..your next EBA.
Lets hope shorthaul don't screw this up.

argusmoon

5th Nov 2005, 10:19

The majority of crew are now female.
As a demographic they are more conservative,less militant and almost indifferent to IR matters
The events over the last few years are evidence of this .
The overseas bases wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the conservative 4% who voted it up.
The same can be said for the Shorthaul EBA.
This is not sexist.... its fact.
GalleyHag's post is a perfect example of this conservative naive standpoint

GalleyHag

5th Nov 2005, 10:22

I had my say on the issues raised by long haul crew and I respect your opinion.

Transfers "were" a 2 way street if you look more closely at the numbers they have very much been one way street from long haul to short haul.

See you had to go for the childish weakest link comment who's talking nonsense now.

What now women are to blame give me a break, as I said the facts speak for themselves you GAVE away your flying so dont come crying to me over your decision, well the decisions made by the women in your division.

I will let you get back to fighting your cause, good luck.

labia vortex

5th Nov 2005, 10:34

I tend to agree.
I hate industrial action
At the risk of being labelled a treacherous sister I really don't keep up with whats going on sometimes.

speedbirdhouse

5th Nov 2005, 19:31

Sorry about being off topic but persistent rumours from completely unrelated sources continue to suggest that the "viagra driven dwarf" has gone and got his SECOND secretary pregnant...................

From the secretary's perspective I suppose such an act is a sound career choice.

Hell, it'll pay more than the $7.00 an hour that will be the norm under Howard's new world order.

sydney s/h

5th Nov 2005, 20:04

The truth be known...i think that some of Longhaul is quietly laying some dark ones in their underwear with the next S/H eba coming up.

They keep going on about us being underpaid on regionals etc... Hmm, do they really care about our paypackets or welfare? Umm, No.

They realise that their poor domestic TAA cousin who flies syd-mel all week is finally having some power in this game and is now part international division and is taking away from longhaul what was traditionally "their" flying.

Well times are a changin' and whereas you have lost quite alot of flying we are just growing. And that is obvious.... no forced leave over here, just the recruitment of hundreds - yes hundreds of casual F/A's and the transfer of HUNDREDS of longhaulers.

I get sick of central crewing calling me on my days off begging me to work. Fact.

As far as the transfer agreement between s/h and l/h goes it has been a huge one way street.

The last s/h class to head over was around jan 2004. Nearly 2 years ago. There has been an absolute pile of longhaulers come over since then.
Why?
Cause we are growing and unfortunatley, you guys in longhaul keep handing out your flying to the Kiwi's....the Thais and now the Poms. Who's next....the Yanks? That mightn't be far from the truth. Stop whinging about your hotel cause you mightnt get overnights there soon.

Oh and Simon Templar, whats the big deal operating a jumbo up to LAX? I can operate an A330 on a 14hr sector (eg. Sin-drw-adl-syd) with only 50 or so less pax and i dont get to lie down for a couple of hours in a bed. 14hr one sector is a ****e load easier than unloading and loading 3times, re-catering and feeding them with very limited rest time.

labia vortex

5th Nov 2005, 20:21

Before you go on about how easy a Direct LAX is... do one.
If their is any rise in the professionalism in shorthaul its down to the longhaul emmigration.
...and you want power?
Thats basically what it is all about.
The little unsophisticated sibling wanting recognition.
You are prone to exaggeration....hundreds of casuals,hundreds of longhaulers....show me the figures.
The reason you are rung on days off?
Sick Leave

lowerlobe

5th Nov 2005, 20:23

Amazing….this S/H against L/H..

The facts are:

S/H did vote to do our flying .Whether some S/H say they did not vote YES,the majority did.

S/H did vote to penalize anyone who transferred to Shorthaul with the bands payment.

S/H have disliked L/H ever since Qantas bought Australian Airlines. And have looked for a way to get back at us since.

Quote “They realise that their poor domestic TAA cousin who flies syd-mel all week is finally having some power in this game and is now part international division and is taking away from longhaul what was traditionally "their" flying.”

I wonder if the girls at Australian or TAA ever gave much thought to the crew from airlines that they took over and gave them integrated seniority…

The majority of Australian crew who went to LHR are S/H ,including their union leader.

The company is using one division against each other but it seems as though most of the undercutting has been done by S/H.

The company does not need any IR reforms to succeed ,they are laughing at the work done by S/H

sydney s/h

5th Nov 2005, 21:22

I think 14 classes of casuals this year would equate to a few F/A's.

You look at numbers of longhaulers who have seen the light and come over - they know that their own division is a has been and there is less and less flying.

Even you guys call it a bid pamplet not package.

And by the way...i have always been Qantas - not Australian and not TAA. And yes, i was around before the merger. I have probably been around longer than alot of you.

gigs

5th Nov 2005, 22:09

its all interesting reading guys but,per is mentioned alot here.. new ful time crew are payed for 140 hrs//they are only doing 85-90 with the reginals......for months casuals have been lured to per for a months "working holiday". given the fact that geoff and mark are not a charity what does anyone think may happen? cheers gigs

lowerlobe

5th Nov 2005, 23:03

Sydney S/H …

You are obviously still in a state of denial..

Another lot of rhetoric about L/H but you never deny any of the claims

There was no merger ,it is a fictional concept which appeals to S/H crew.

Qantas paid $400 million for Australian airlines..that is a takeover ,not a merger.

It would have been a lot better for the Government to sell Australian airlines to Ansett and Qantas could have better spent the $400 million on S/H aircraft and done the job flying domestically ourselves.

“Transfers "were" a 2 way street if you look more closely at the numbers they have very much been one way street from long haul to short haul.”

Longhaul crew never attempted to set a lower wage band for S/H crew who transferred to L/H as did the S/H faaa and crew

As I mentioned before the crew at TAA and Australian would not have allowed integrated seniority for the regional airlines they took over, however we did

The company has recognised this animosity from S/H towards L/H and are making the most of it

sydney s/h

5th Nov 2005, 23:19

Lowerlobe,

Im not sure where you are going with this whole Australian merger thing.

I dont care about Australian or TAA. I have only ever worked for Qantas - eg. When i started with this airline i was employed by QF.

It was years before the merger happened.

I am well aware that we paid $400 mil for the airline and i am also well aware that it was more of a take over than a merger. Thanks for the education on the Qantas-Australian merger. It's old news...infact over a decade ago....move on.

labia vortex

5th Nov 2005, 23:22

So you must have been groundstaff!

lowerlobe

6th Nov 2005, 00:39

My point is that the obsession that you obviously have (as with most of short haul) is that there was a merger. You mention the word merger 4 times in your last post even though you acknowledge that QF paid $400 million for Australian airlines.

There was never a merger or any sort of merger but a lot of ex-Australian airlines people have had a chip on their shoulder ever since the take over and are now relishing the opportunity to pay back Long Haul for what they perceive as a type of injustice. Read my previous posts about the actions of S/H crew.

I don’t care if why you jumped ship but you obviously have an attitude towards L/H, so I suggest you stick to your job and leave us to ours. You seem to have some sort of identity crisis, you refer to your self as Sydney S/H but then say you are well aware that WE paid $400 million for the airline……If you are going to post here and criticize L/H then have the honesty to tell us where you worked before the takeover

Gomam

6th Nov 2005, 01:18

can someone clarify something for me? Any new flight attendants that work for qf, do they get bands in s/h?

i cant remember? I think that they dont get them....so if thats the case, its not only long haulers who are being penalised, its also any new crew...

and ps- u lot that keep arguing with one another need to get a life, this is an issues thread, not a bloody slagging each other off thread.

be thankful you have a job guys, i know its been said before, but be bloody thankful

thank god that the whingers are only a minority at work, otherwise i would leave, cause i seriously can not stand you lot who feel that the company owes them. You are there to work and u get paid for it, you are not being held there by ransom, leave if u hate it so so much!!!! But unforunately u would never leave, cause the thought of a normal 9-5pm job scares u, and some of you would be unemployable anyways.........

you are not the only ones in that situation, there are thousands of us at qantas, yet some of us decide to shut up, do our job with pride, and leave all the bull**** alone

may i sugguest u do the same, look at other industries its the same everywhere!!!!! poor me poor me, oh seriously go do some regional flying, then talk to me........

EAAFA

6th Nov 2005, 01:31

You go Gomam!

Am I the only one who suspects that Simon Templar and labia vortex are one and the same person?

I wouldn't be a bit surprised.:}

Butterfield8's private message in response to my post. Does this sound like a stable, well adjusted individual?

6th November 2005 16:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello
You are dimmer,dumber than your user name.
You and your shorthaul stupidity.
You don't even know when you are being screwed.
I feel sorry for your boy/girl friend.

lowerlobe

6th Nov 2005, 03:45

Issues:

There are different pay scales for the same job that faaa S/H and crew agreed to

S/H have done a number of things that directly affect L/H

S/H EBA is up again and my points are valid,it is not an issue of bagging anyone,just facts or issues that affect others.

What part of management do you work for gomam

No one from S/H has denied what S/H has done.

Butterfield8

6th Nov 2005, 05:37

Actually I am Labia Vortex.
Just giving vent to my feminine side.

OZcabincrew

6th Nov 2005, 07:44

Gomam,

New QF full time crew do get band payments.

str

6th Nov 2005, 14:05

New full time crew do get bands but on a reduced rate. Can't remember exact figures as don't have EBA to hand but its something like if you work on a Sunday on the old contract you get 25% etc but new contract get 12 or 13% extra.

qcc2

6th Nov 2005, 20:55

qf and faaalh supported the idea of per lh csm's trnasfer as csm to per sh. this was knocked back by the faaa sh. per based csm's have a great opportunity to start legal procedings against the sh faaa union. in the past the agrement was put down to domestic and international job differences. this no longer applies. the discrimination board and any court will agree with that. this is why even qf (and faaa lh) supports that move. dont be shy. a pity i dont fly out of per.

and lets face it the sooner everyone gets the idea that we will operate in the near future on one set of awards the easier the trasformation. short and lnghaul flying will be seperated by casa rguidelines of 3 aircraft types with one variant. this will also give qf more flexibility with seasonal demands.

GalleyHag

7th Nov 2005, 06:07

Interesting, I wonder how long haul crew would like short haul CSM's transferring over to long haul. Bring on the legal action just be prepared to accept short haul CSM's operating those "jumbo's" I know plenty of short haul CSM's more than happy to transfer over.

Simon Templar

7th Nov 2005, 06:15

Like putting a neanderthal in charge of a BOAC Comet.
Contrary to popular opinion in shorthaul the CSM roles are not the same.
A shorthaul purser would take at least two years to come up to speed with aircraft passengers and crew.
Why do you think most longhaul FAs are promoted to purser wthin in 6 months of transferring.
Because the role is a doddle.
Which airline did you guys take over and treat the crew with contempt?
Eastern wasn't it?
You guys have short convenient memories.

GalleyHag

7th Nov 2005, 06:21

Wow im shocked you have even heard of Eastern, nothing ceases to amaze me.

As for the rest, keep dreaming!!

Simon Templar

7th Nov 2005, 07:52

Shorthaul it would appear have no:
Credibility
Morality
Integrity
Principles
Ability
Shame
Memory
No wonder Dixon targetted shorthaul to get what he wanted.
You have an enormous amount of vanity
It has always saddened me that the better domestic airline went under.
Ansett staff were such wonderful people.

lowerlobe

7th Nov 2005, 08:28

Australian airlines(TAA) offered no integrated seniority to any airlines they took over but screamed blue murder when they were taken over....

Simon your right, Ansett staff were great maybe we should have bought Ansett instead

A change of topic I think as we all know what has happened and where various loyalties lie.

What does everyone think of the new staff travel surcharges?

sydney s/h

7th Nov 2005, 09:08

Ohhh Mr templar,

you have little or no idea.

Sydney s/h is made up of HUNDREDS of ex-l/ crew - loads of which have transfered in the past 12mths.

Shockingly the shorthaul base is made up with a ****e load of ex-Ansett f/a's (casuals).

So....the terrible people with all those poor qualities are your ex-work mates and also the employees of the former airline which you give such credit for.

tool.

OZcabincrew

7th Nov 2005, 12:09

isn't A LOT of the PER S/H base ex-Ansett aswell, i think when the S/H base opened that's who all the crew originally worked for anyway?

Oz

Jet_Black_Monaro

7th Nov 2005, 12:19

Two months away from this revolving door argument and I return to find the same 7-8 clowns arguing amongst themselves. Oh, minus Jettlager ofcourse. He got kicked off, just like he did when he was Left2Primary.

Anyways, whilst you clowns argue amongst yourselves, I read the press and follow the industry very closely. I also talk to other QF crew in the course of my travels. And it is clear to me you are the extremist minority. I can't help but feel your workmates see your extreme ideology based views for what they are. Views that are displayed on the various postings here.

QF L/H crew are being steamrolled by Qantas because of the instransigence of a very small minority. QF are fighting the battle against you handful that are from the Old Guard, who won't change and are clearly quite prepared to bring all their workmates down with them during a fight to the death of your employment.

speedbirdhouse

7th Nov 2005, 12:32

According to the "Hewitt group" survey there is only ONE "small group" at longhaul.

It was the "engaged" group.

22% was the figure I believe.

If and when QF decide to conduct another survey they will no doubt find that the engaged group has fallen further as a percentage of the whole.

Understandable given the abuse dished out by the QF QCC1 brownshirts.

How is life at virgen blew JBM?
You must be thrilled with the prospect of little johnny's anti employee IR laws.

You'll be able to do an EVEN FAIRER days work for an EVEN FAIRER days pay.......:ok:

Simon Templar

7th Nov 2005, 14:04

The King Of rhetoric returns
The little fascist from "an airline" returns to bless us with uninformed/misinformed opinions that are gleaned from the people on "his travels"
No facts no figures just mindless speculation derived from anonymous sources
Supply some verifiable facts.
You don't even work for QF...so what concern is it of yours?
You believe everything you read (propaganda)in the press.
You "follow" the industry closely.
You ARE a follower NOT a leader.
Thats one thing that is indisputable

cartexchange

7th Nov 2005, 16:43

ahhhh JBM you're back!
run out of face paint have we!
is it true that under your proposed new conditions you will have to supply that at your own cost!
come on, fill me in......................

lowerlobe

7th Nov 2005, 19:26

Ahhh JBM your back and I see that you have bought a thesaurus as well; it’s good to see you are trying to improve yourself. However, I think the word you were thinking for is intransigent not “instransigence” and you spelt that incorrectly as well.

Perhaps a dictionary would be good or even easier just use spell checker and thesaurus before you post.

But I digress, how are things over at VB? Are there many nervous crews with the hostile takeover bid by TOLL or the stalling tactics of your boss? You have been gone for such a long time I thought you might have been stocking shelves at Woolworths to make ends meet and been too tired to post.

As far as your comments go regarding the intransigence of us old timers, it never ceases to amaze me how many of you generation ‘Y” people that are willing to take massive cuts in pay and conditions just to get a job and appease company’s like yours.

I imagine you are ecstatic about JH’s new IR reforms!!!

Pay people less , make it easier to sack workers and all of this while corporations are increasing their bonus’s….Yep,that’s a recipe for a better world….

Are your initials GD by any chance.!!!!!!

If no one applied for jobs at VB or J* and were willing to undermine other workers then these airlines would not get a foothold and we would have employment on a fair basis .If you are going to use the tired argument of lower airfares, try checking in with a family or having a reasonable amount of luggage and having to pay excess charges. The cheap fares disappear into thin air and you might as well pay the old fare.

qcc2

7th Nov 2005, 20:29

its on the cards. if sh csm's come to lh thats ok by me. as with the lhr base it doesn't matter anymore who stuffs up when and how as long, the qf spin department will cover up

lowerlobe

7th Nov 2005, 20:33

If S/H CSM's (pursers) do transfer to L/H,they will have to do a lot more work than just help out with a few trays in J/C and make a few PA's

Simon Templar

7th Nov 2005, 20:42

...and they get $80K p.a to do that.
Wow thats extortion.

sydney s/h

7th Nov 2005, 21:23

Hey lowerlobe,

sorry to say, we are already doing longhaul flying....so we do actually know what it entails. Shocking - i know.

speedbirdhouse

7th Nov 2005, 21:28

"we are already doing longhaul flying....so we do actually know what it entails. Shocking - i know."

Yes.............the groundstaff tell us............as do the caterers:}

lowerlobe

7th Nov 2005, 22:19

Just like a little girl wearing mum's shoes !!!

Looks cute but doesn't really do the job

qtass

8th Nov 2005, 01:04

Hi everyone,
Does anyone out there think that when Howard and his mates pass their so called "work choices" bill that it will lead to "higher wages" as they claim? The only higher wages that will be achieved will be when one choses to work for a pittance rather than be on the dole.

Is there anyone out there who seriously thinks that Qantas, or any other corporation for that matter will show any form of restraint when the bill is passed. I think not. Dixon will wantonly slash everyone's wages and conditions (except his own) to the point that we are all living on the poverty line. Dixon has repeatedly shown and publically stated his disdain for all Qantas staff and will, I think, be only too happy to sack us all and hire us back on a fraction of what our pay was. How does $30 000 p.a sound on a roster of 240 hours sound? No overtime, nothing. No bid system either. Its all going to go. I'm terribly sorry about the PER base, but we all now have far bigger problems to worry about.

Fasten your seat belts boys and girls, we're in for a bumpy ride.

qcc2

8th Nov 2005, 01:53

sh csm and some crew do get a rather nasty reputation from some ports. just been to nz again and once they realised this crew was lh there was a different attitude by the groundstaff. i dont know what sh csm and crews do to them but they do leave a rather bad impression.

Galley Power

8th Nov 2005, 02:23

Simon Templer
It would be like putting a neanderthal in charge of a Phantom.
Like putting a neanderthal in charge of a BOAC Comet.
God this red is good...Wynns Coonawarra Estate Cab/Sav/Merlot...absolutely delicious
Must we hear it again? Thanks for the varied comparisons, however please don't drink and type.

speedbirdhouse

8th Nov 2005, 02:54

Wage earners of Australia.

Get off your asses and demonstrate to the howard government that you WILL NOT work for the equivalent of a bowl of rice............just so that those at the top can continue to line their pockets.............

The Following is a cut and paste from todays FAAA mail out.

----------------

TIME TO BE COUNTED!
NATIONAL DAY OF COMMUNITY PROTEST

The Howard Government on 2 November announced its sweeping Industrial Relations changes, the so-called WorkChoices legislation.

This ideological piece of legislation will undo and reverse the working conditions and job security of Australian employees that took a century of effort and struggle to achieve. The Federal Government has NO mandate to proceed with these changes. It at no time detailed its intentions to voters at last year’s Federal Election.

In the most despicable and deceitful manner the Howard Government masquerades as the “workers” friend whilst at the same time ripping into the employees of this country, with this unprecedented authoritarian legislation that will reduce many employees to almost a “serf” like status and introduce a master / servant type relationship that existed in medieval England.

The “pillaging” of tax payers money to fund the misleading propaganda onslaught in the media is appalling and unprecedented in this country’s history.

Above all, the “WorkChoices” legislation strikes at the foundation of our values as a society. The notions of fairness, decency and balance are going to be trampled and destroyed by an out of control Federal Government.

The hypocrisy of PM Howard and his party knows no bounds. They tell the public that they believe in “de-regulation”, they tell the public that they stand for “states rights” and that they don’t believe in “centralism”. However, in their indecent haste to destroy the rights and working conditions of employees, they are going to “take over” the state industrial relations systems and they use the corporations power of the constitution to regulate employees and destroy any semblance of balance between the rights of employers and employees.

It is incredible that John Howard and his ministers can actually pretend that their industrial “reforms” are going to be good for this country. The inevitable outcome of these “reforms” will be the creation of a society like the US with vast differences between the well off and an underclass of working poor.

We as cabin crew have much to lose from these changes. Have no doubt that once employers have the legal ability to reduce our conditions …… there will be an irresistible urge to attempt to do it.

It’s time that we all take a stand. Disinterest, lethargy, disengagement and apathy must be shaken off by cabin crew. There is no point sitting back and thinking all will be well or that others, or the “FAAA” etc will save you from all of this.

Our members must get involved and say enough is enough! We are human beings in a so-called democratic society. We deserve respect, proper treatment and fair employment conditions. We don’t live in an authoritarian country where we have no rights at work and where each working day we have to live in fear of being dismissed or harassed by our employer OR DO WE?

The FAAA calls upon EVERY member who is not working on 15 November 2005, to attend the ACTU Rally in your city. Details are as follows:

SYDNEY: 9AM MARTIN PLACE

MELBOURNE: 9AM FEDERATION SQUARE, CNR FLINDERS AND SWANSTON

BRISBANE: 9AM SOUTH BANK CULTURAL FORECOURT

PERTH: 12 NOON THE ESPLANADE

ADELAIDE: 8AM ELDER PARK KING WILLIAM ST

HOBART: 8.30AM PRINCES WHARF, SHED No. 1

Please note that regional meetings will be also held throughout the country and further details can be obtained from the ACTU website at www.rightsatwork.com.au/campaigns/november15

Simon Templar

8th Nov 2005, 03:18

Pity your are not a Cabernet.
Your posts might just be worthwhile.
Now, What was your point?

Galley Power

8th Nov 2005, 04:03

What was yours? As if I care to read what you're drinking? Pity you're not a wine critic.

Simon Templar

8th Nov 2005, 04:23

This has no relevance whatsoever to Qantas,its direction or management.
Unless you hadn't noticed its the topic of this forum.
Play the Ball not the Man.

lfdlfp

8th Nov 2005, 07:26

"Play the Ball not the Man."
Funny how some people don't take their own advice. ST, your posts invariably turn to personal abuse when someone disagrees with you.:bored:
As for the point Galley Power is making, it's clear to me (probably because I'm sober): you are repetitive, pretentious and pompous.

Simon Templar

8th Nov 2005, 08:06

The post regarding the Cabernet was made a few days.
I had two glasses.
I mentioned the wine as a comedic break.(Comic Relief)
Your opinion of me is of no consequence
Now can we go back to the topic?

TightSlot

8th Nov 2005, 09:02

Back on track please now folks - Thanks

radiation junkie

8th Nov 2005, 12:24

" This has no relevance whatsoever to Qantas, its direction or management."

Hi ! New to this Forum. Has been an interesting hour or so reading the latest posts.

Yes, all this does have relevance. It has shown me some (not all)S/H are short of more than just "Haul" . Sadly a lot of these ex S/H somethings, be it Ansett/TAA or even Air NZ etc are now part of the L/H "so called management" and are blindly falling over themselves perpetuating the "Bonus for Blood " style of management direction, so loved by our VDD.

Actually had GOD (silent "O" )on a flight from JFK recently. He was charming, polite, friendly. Came into the (first class) galley and had a chat with the crew. Told us all about the future plans he has for Q. Trouble was, at the end of it I did not see any Q left. Just a lot of satellite sub divisions running on cheap O/S and casual or contract labour providing cheap flights to cheap destinations. He kept re-iterating if this did not happen, Q will not survive. A kind of "catch22" as in my opinion Q has ceased to exist in his mind already. (other than as a bonus machine for his own "team" before they move on to the next victim.)

Is that back on track, or have I said too much already ??

mrpaxing

8th Nov 2005, 20:35

its not just gd who is the driving force. as has been mentioned here before dame margret jackson sitting on a broomstick pushing gd along. she is the one sitting with hugh morgan on the business council of australia, spending many more millions, out of QF and other large companies, trying to tell you its in the interest of the country and jobs. oh, by the way teh 325000 jobs they keep raving about are mainly part time jobs anyway. OZ has now the largest percentage of part time workers in the OECD. i wonder why beazley and troops never refer to that?

speedbirdhouse

8th Nov 2005, 21:08

"OZ has now the largest percentage of part time workers in the OECD. "

And our children's futures will be all the poorer for it..........:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/campaigns/november15

radiation junkie

8th Nov 2005, 21:13

" Qantas being sold all over Ebay like burnt pieces of Concorde"

Now that is an interesting thought.

A few months ago I went down "the back" to see why a pax had not disembarked yet. He was collecting all the used economy amenity packs and taking the Q lanyard out. Had about 40-50 by then. Says he puts them on ebay and sells them for about $7 to $10 each. Beats frequent flyer points !

Maybe Q should get the QCC1"visitors" involved. That way they could be doing something productive for the airline.

GalleyHag

8th Nov 2005, 22:31

Thats a good point I was surprised when I flicked through the Annual Report and Qantas states they have grown jobs by x% which equals the equivalent of x number of permanent positions.

Included in their growth however, is a handful of permanent positions for cabin crew within Australia the rest made up of casuals through an external contact company, part-timers, contractors, off-shore and the list goes on.

Excellent creative report writing with the operative word being equivalent without the equivalent conditions and working standards of permanent employees.

mrpaxing

9th Nov 2005, 08:04

speedbird what is the actu doing about it? not much i am afraid !!!

speedbirdhouse

9th Nov 2005, 08:09

Which reminds me..............

http://www.actu.asn.au/work_rights/news/1130973329_18579.html

There is So much at stake..............

Wed Webbing Woop

9th Nov 2005, 09:26

RADIATION JUNKIE

Maybe Q should get the QCC1"visitors" involved. That way they could be doing something productive for the airline.

.................................could not agree more.

Those imbeciles are beyond belief.Try this one as another eg of total ineptitiude.

I was sick for 5 days last week. After the 4th day my Team Leader calls me at home and says " oh hi, just calling to see that you're OK". I said . Of course I'm not OK, I'm sick, thats why I'm not at work, what do you want and why are you calling me at home?" . Team Leader says, " we have a duty of care to make sure all crew who are sick are OK "..........I immediately hung up and called the FAAAA in disgust.

What is this all about .How dare they call ??? How many other work places have to put up with this same bullying behaviour, from wombats who don't know who you are and care factor = zip, its all about their KPI's ( read bonuses ).

I'm all for the National day of action against Johnny Howards
" Mien Kamph" doctrine. BUT....

I propose a National day of action in protest to the Visitors. These weasles should be sent to a more suitable work place aka Depth Testers at the Sewerage Treatment Works!!!!!

Lets see their record:

-3 from MEL base ( including the Colonel )-GONE !
-4 gone from SYD base.-GONE
- Perth ....RIP.

Its time for Kylie to take stock. The experiment in using non operational management is a abject and total failure.

CREW NEED TO MANAGE CREW......... get it.

radiation junkie

9th Nov 2005, 10:02

Now WWW !
Let us not be unfair to these "Team Leaders" .
The excersise has not been a failure from Q's point of view.
Mine was an insensitive, arrogant, deceitful fool.
Lied to me, lied to their own Manager to cover up harassment and unprofessional behaviour, accused my family of being dishonest.
But it's OK now. No longer a CC Team Manager. Has been promoted to a CC Operations Managerial position. You see, this is the sort of person Q wants to promote to future managment.

mostie

9th Nov 2005, 10:13

Quote-

"You see, this is the sort of person Q wants to promote to future managment."

--

Too true Radiation junkie.
Rumour has it that a group of "visitors" approached senior management explaining that they were tired of the complaints they were recieving from CC about abuse being dished out by both "grant's pet sociopath" and the one that looks like a female version of "Lurch".

The response from management?

"Get with the program as that is the way we are heading".

And they wonder why they have the crew they deserve?:}

radiation junkie

9th Nov 2005, 11:21

Mostie !
Wonder what it feels like having 75% of the people you are supposed to manage and the same % of fellow work colleages dislike you and think you are an incompetent fool .
Certainly not the work enviroment I would enjoy working in or get any satisfaction from !
But I guess there are some who have a perverse sense of self fulfillment.

But then, how do we get around these people and what is it in the Q "business plan" that warrants their vendetta style of behaviour. Especially as they are achieving "absolutely nothing".

After giving 28 years of my life to Q in loyal and exemplary service, my last few years before I "get out" are not exactly what I expected.

Simon Templar

9th Nov 2005, 21:00

Next time you have a problem with one of these people suggest to them that you feel threatened and intimidated by their attention.
There is EEO legislation covering this.
Did this with the boofhead who is my manager.
Just about wet his pants and apologized for his intimidatory manner.
Haven`t heard from him since.
This was all over an e-mail I sent to Kylie.
Apparently I wasn't following "reporting protocol"

speedbirdhouse

9th Nov 2005, 23:28

It'll be interesting to see how long QF can resist the temptation to sack lock stock and barrel vast numbers of us and re-hire on the cheap and nasty..........?

Their ability to do so will be quite legal under howards new anti employee IR laws.

Their excuse/ability for doing so?

Operational reasons.........

Qantas- The executive bonus machine.

rammel

10th Nov 2005, 00:43

I'm not cabin crew, but I do work for QF. One way to stop these people is to have a look in the policy and procedures manual and quote it back at them (a polite way to tell them to F**K Off).

Most of the managers I have come accross at QF have no idea what is in this manual and because of this you have them on the back foot.

I have seen it a number of times when they have gone to sack someone but failed because they did not follow the company procedure set down. I have seen this happen with department managers and even HR people. They all seem to have no idea what is in it.

Another reason to look in it, is that you can normally find some company rule somewhere that will help you cover your arse if needed.

speedbirdhouse

10th Nov 2005, 01:14

QF and any business for that matter will be free to sack staff without recourse for unfair dismissmal providing it has done so for "operational reasons".

Operational reasons can mean structural, organisational and economic etc.

Therefore, QF may [under this new legislation] replace existing employees with cheaper re-hires for no other reason that it decides it's already record profits aren't enough.............

Butterfield8

10th Nov 2005, 04:30

I thought this could only happen after the current EBA expired?
This gives us about 2 years grace.....I hope.

speedbirdhouse

10th Nov 2005, 04:37

I hope so too mate........

The FAAA don't fully understand the implications for us yet as the [ FASCIST ] legislation is so new.

It's intent however is there for all to see.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

cartexchange

10th Nov 2005, 04:41

they may be able to "reorganise" our pay and conditions but boy will they suffer, "pay peanuts get monkeys"
The morale and motivation is bad enough now, can you imagine what it will be like after their "re-organisation".

Dont tell me the sociopath has been promoted!!!!!!!!!

Butterfield8

10th Nov 2005, 04:46

Initials please and promoted to what?

speedbirdhouse

10th Nov 2005, 04:51

I.J. sometimes known as "the terminator".

Known at Air NZ as "Ike" [I know everything].

"Grant's pet sociopath" works for me though.

Don't know about any promotion.....

cartexchange

10th Nov 2005, 04:54

well guys has IJ ben promoted or not!
Oh well as the saying goes, "the higher they get the harder they fall"
He will come undone! but faarrrrrrk the damage that phsycho will be able to do in the meantime!!!
What has he been promoted to? anyone know?

Butterfield8

10th Nov 2005, 04:54

What a clown he is!!
Whats he been promoted to?

speedbirdhouse

10th Nov 2005, 05:01

"Whats he been promoted to?"

Grant's personal bidet??

Butterfield8

10th Nov 2005, 05:11

That means he gets shat on from above ...how ironic!

lowerlobe

10th Nov 2005, 07:08

The ACTU has been running a very successful advertising campaign that has forced the government to spend around $50 million dollars in counter advertising.

Since the new IR reforms are very topical why don’t we (the FAAA) start our own advertising campaign with the JFK issue in mind with something like.

“We are being blackmailed to accept longer hours and a drop in conditions or we will be replaced by foreign workers (AKL based crew).

Who is next…doctors.... nurses…. supermarket staff…. clerical staff…. factory workers…. the list goes on. Corporations will do anything with the new IR reforms to raise profits and bonus’s for boards at the expense of Australian workers”

If someone in Qantas is interviewed and they say yes they will replace us if we don’t vote yes to an increase in hours then it will ring alarm bells with the population .If Qantas realizes the implications of telling the truth in the interview and say No they will not replace us then we have them over a barrel. At the very least it brings the issue of what is happening to the public and the papers at the moment are running with the IR story so it will be in the news for sure.

If we make it apparent that we are not the only ones to be at risk, especially with the new laws being introduced then the rest of the community will start asking questions as well.

I don’t believe that the public is apathetic, the latest ad campaigns by the government is proof of that.

it's great to discuss this in here but that will not get anything done..ring the faaa and tell them we want something done instead of a protest day that will achieve little

Warp57

10th Nov 2005, 09:09

Well placed sources indicate that the S/H FAAA who are in negotiations over their EBA have agreed to remove any restriction on regional flying and have given the nod for S/H crew to fly outside of the current 4 hour zone east and west of Sydney.

All short haul crew should immediately contact Darryl Watkins and demand that this should not go ahead. Short haul crew are not in S/H to fly long haul routes , nor should we be used to undermine our cousins in L/H.

Maybe this explains why DW won't be party to the joint Qantas unions/ACTU newsletter attacking the industrial changes. He's too cosy in bed with QF and doesn't want to upset them.

Warp57

11th Nov 2005, 01:51

NATIONAL DAY OF COMMUNITY PROTEST
MEETING POINT FOR FAAA MEMBERS

Further to the newsletter issued on 7 November 2005, I wish to advise members that cabin crew attending the ACTU Rally on Tuesday 15 November should initially meet at St Andrews Square which is next to Town Hall (Bathurst St side of Town Hall) at 8.30 am sharp.
We will then proceed as a group to the Rally at Martin Place, which is due to commence at 9 am.

The implications of the sweeping industrial law changes are far reaching and we are still awaiting an analysis of the legislation. However, the proposed changes which have passed the House of Representatives yesterday are highly detrimental to our working conditions.

The FAAA strongly urges EVERY cabin crew member off duty on 15 November in Sydney to attend the Rally.

We believe our membership does care about its working conditions, job tenure and security. We hope a strong attendance at the Rally will vindicate our view that our members are prepared to fight for their conditions, rather than sitting on the sideline criticising and expecting magic to be performed on their behalf by others.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.

speedbirdhouse

11th Nov 2005, 03:15

"ANOTHER BETRAYAL BY THE SHORT HAUL FAAA?"

--

Was it ever going to be any other way.....?

cartexchange

11th Nov 2005, 04:44

i just hope that the s/haul membership speaks up this time and tells its Union exactly how it feels.
All of the ones I have spoken to state that this is not what they want. I hope they don't get scared this time.
Looks like we no longer have to put our names down on the transfer list, we will be doing a mixture of short and long haul trips, but at our pay rates! and short haul wil be doing longer and longer trips on their pay scale.
In a way its a forced pay cut for them! do longer trips without the money that long haul get!
oh well! lets see how DW is going to screw them, and if they dont say or do anything then they cant whinge about it.

Simon Templar

11th Nov 2005, 08:47

Why is it that everything "short" is dysfunctional?
VDD -short and dysfunctional
Borghetti-short dysfunctional
Napoleon-short dysfunctional
Domestic-short(haul)dysfunctional
All of these things/people have self esteem difficulties that drive them to gain recognition.
Unfortunately it is the wrong form of recognition.
They are ultimately reviled

argusmoon

11th Nov 2005, 08:52

The LHR base is recruiting again.
Unofficial reason
Higher than expected attrition rate.
Open to Australian residents

Wed Webbing Woop

11th Nov 2005, 09:29

Word is that our LHR based colleagues (sic! ) have the highest customer survey results than any other base AND they are the most profitable AND they have a 7% attrition rate................this is the latest spin ( read crap ) from our low life Visitor info sessions.

How is it that every time i've got on a QF aircraft after these people that : Galleys are a s---t fight, pax are p---ed off, nil orders done, OHCRF a total shambles, crap written on the galley hand over sheets AND why is they are the ones we see "off their dials late at night in the lobbies of our Hotel in HKG, SIN and BKK.

Yeah a great role model base !!!!!%$$##@#$%$%%$##$.

These people are having themselves on............probably due to the SHORT HAUL factor ,.....mmmmmmmmmmmm

TightSlot

11th Nov 2005, 10:00

I think that we have all got the message now - Some of you don't approve of shorthaul.

This doesn't give you the right to relentlessly and continually post hateful comments about others: To do so is immature and tedious (Simon Templar & speedbirdhouse this would include both of you) :suspect:

From now on, if any post on this thread serves no purpose other than to attack or threaten or abuse other people, or is simply hateful it will be deleted and the user posting will get a 48hr threadban to cool his/her heels

Simon Templar

11th Nov 2005, 22:04

While I am possibly over the top with some of my comments in this forum please understand that these comments are born out of frustration.
Like everybody else I make financial decisions based on my present and anticipated income.It provides stability and allows me to plan and consrtuct a future for my family
Anything/one that undermines that will raise my ire
We as crew have never had proper industrial relations representation because we represent ourselves.
It has long been my contention that we must employ professional PR and IR personnel.These people working in tandem with and advising a Union executive.
We have NEVER won anything in negotiations with our employer.
Why?
They employ professionals who live and breathe this stuff.
Throw self interest into the mix and we are disadvantaged even further
Our employer is united...we are not.
The pilots just got "done over" for the same reasons.
It is enormously frustrating when it is clear what is being done and the chattering class procrastinate and contribute little to an issue important to everyone.
These forums allow me(with moderators indulgence)to vent this frustration.
I love my job and do it well.....pax and crew feedback verify this.
I will never compromise the standard of service I deliver because I have issues with my employer and the fascist ay hole that masquerades as the prime minister of this country
So "TIGHSLOT" thank you for your patience and understanding.
Thank you for tolerating the resentment that I have toward those who would seek to reduce my wages,my conditions and reduce the standard of living for my family that I work bloody hard to maintain .

radiation junkie

12th Nov 2005, 01:07

Thank you Simon Templar. My sentiments exactly.
But there's more. Please peruse Friday's AFR magazine ( 11/11/05 ) where we are fed a journalistic expose of our CEO, the QANTAS Ringmaster ! (More like a paid advertisment. )
His main objective is again the improvement of productivity (in itself not a reproachable subject). But which translates to low cost staff, reduced real wages, overseas outsourceing as much as possible, taking the "flying" and "engineering" , giving it to the cheapest available cost model (China).
This of course flows on to Q being supportive of new IR initiatives. If you read into the fine print, the new IR legislation will in effect have the ability to over-ride the current EBA . Yes that 2 years or so of "grace" we all thought we had under the current aggreement is just a piece of printed paper.
Q is overstaffed with LH FA's at present, or so we are told.
VR.... not on your life. They are fishing for Temporary Part Time and forced LS Leave. It is a waiting game, as when the new IR legislation comes in, VR will be a handshake and 4 weeks pay for your 25-30 years of loyal service. Airline flying jobs for a new generation of Australian's .... keep dreaming !
VDD's final comments, " I love it " ....Does he mean Qantas or the "Bonus Driven" management model that he has created.

argusmoon

12th Nov 2005, 01:55

Boss should be renamed DROSS with rubbish like that as content.
I should check who wrote it.
Could have been VDD himself.
What absolute KRAPPE

lowerlobe

12th Nov 2005, 05:10

It has now been nearly 2 months since the union meeting to explain to us the situation with the JFK dispensation and still no evidence of action on the faaa’s part.

I have suggested a media campaign in a previous post to show the public what is a stake and Warp57 shows up immediately and changes the subject to the short haul EBA.

When is the FAAA going to send out the vote cards for the JFK issue?????????

By the time the faaa gets around to sending out the vote the EBA will be up for renewal

Is the FAAA going to organize the vote or is it through the Australian Electoral Commission?

To let the FAAA run the vote is akin to letting Dracula run the blood bank.

The vote is OVERDUE!!!!!!!!

It is time to do something about our conditions rather than just complain about them on pprune

radiation junkie

12th Nov 2005, 07:32

"no evidence of an action on the faaa’s part"

Did we really expect any timely action from our "personal agenda" driven FAAA. The JFK dispensation will continue without serious action or intervention. Our EBA will be up for renewal and once the new IR initiatives are implemented, VDD will get his so called "incredible IR people" to work through the Governments new IR initiatives and find every loophole they can to get as much of Qantas flying on low wage, overseas and contract staff . Regardless of how much "industrial flexibility" or "productivity improvement" Q LH delivers, it will never be enough. The goal posts will constantly be moved to new levels. How else can the "bonus driven" management keep the money flowing into their pockets. VDD has hinted at a LH Shanghai base with Asian FA's to fly through Singapore and Australian ports . Advice from management.... get with the program, this is the new Qantas.

Wed Webbing Woop

12th Nov 2005, 10:27

Have just read the Fin Review piece on GD and his grand vision ( read Jet * )....what a lot of swill!!!. How much did QF have to pay for a piece likre that ....oh yeah-how many P/C tickets for the editor-in-chief, sub editors etc ( is that how it goes ?? ) Isn't it great -the only time the loyal QF staff ( read "subjects" ) read about their emplyers Vision/Mission statement is in a corporate geed ridden rag-Fin Review!

Then along comes the other Fairfax gravy train -the Sydney Morning Herald. 3 separate articles on QF.
And yes-as directed by Geoff-lets put the boot into cabin crew again-Xmas is approaching !!!

The article titled -
UP IN THE AIR SERVICE FAILS TO IMPRESS PASSENGERS
..... is a little gem.

Quote , "Qantas failed to rate a mention in the best cabin staff award, which was won by Asiana. The cabin crew award recognised excellence in enthusiasm of staff, friendliness, language skills, food and bevearge and staff grooming and presentation ".

My question -why would the SMH bother to print this ?, what is their agenda ? I don't want to sound cynical ( no never!!! ) me thinks this piece of twaddle was written by some hack in the QF spin team. The same hack who fed The Australian newspaper a few weeks ago the gem on the Bonaventure Hotel !!!!!

Bit by bit -they seem to be softening up public opinion in suggesting that QF long haul crew are GONE.

NOW BRING ON GEOFFSTAR* INT........the messiah.(the second coming)

Now lets put all those pesky L/H crew on individual contracts and watch them run for Jims Mowing/Gloria Jeans franchises.

I may sound paranoid-but me thinks -the goons in QCC and QCA have got it all mapped out.

........as they say " all good things come to an end"

lowerlobe

13th Nov 2005, 00:42

Warp57 and other Faaa officials where are you?

On your newsletter dated 23 rd march 2005 you promised that the dispensation would be temporary (read below) and only operate for bid periods 239 and 240!!!
You said that there would be meetings to discuss crew feedback on this issue!
It took nearly 6 months to hold those meetings (instead of the publicized 2 to 3 months) and now it is nearly 2 months since those meetings and very nearly the end of the year and we still have not heard anything regarding a vote on this issue.
It is doubtful even if the vote was held on Monday 13th Nov that the dispensation would be cancelled before Bid period 243.
In the excerpt from the faaa newsletter MM promised that if the majority of crew was unhappy with the dispensation it would be rescinded at the end of Bid period 240!

THE FAAA HAS AGREED TO PROVIDE DISPENSATION TO QANTAS ON THE FOLLOWING BASIS:
1. The dispensation will operate for 2 bid periods, BP 239 and BP 240.
2. Patterns can be planned up to 14 hours 35 minutes.
3. The slip in LAX following the shuttle cannot be below 36 hours.
4. That the Company maintains slips for BP 238 to allow those who wish to slip in New York to bid for these trips for 1 more bid period. This also allows for crew feedback to reach the FAAA.
5. Dispensation will be reviewed during the 2 bid periods. If cabin crew feedback indicates majority opposition to the dispensation, it will be revoked following the completion of BP 240. We will also be able to ascertain whether the shuttles will be desired trips and actually bid for, bearing in mind these patterns will be relatively high hour trips which are Often keenly sought after.

The newsletters from the faaa have sounded more and more as though they were written by GD himself and have shown the company that they can threaten us and manipulate us with their tactics

The faaa officials have a mandate to represent us not dictate to us!!!

When will the faaa send us the voting forms and give us a democratic chance to decide if the dispensation will continue or not

To all L/H crew reading this,ring the union office and ask why they have not sent out a vote card yet