Qantas passes baton to Jetstar

[Wirraway]

Tues "Sydney Morning Herald"

Qantas passes baton to Jetstar
By Scott Rochfort
October 18, 2005

Qantas's plans to hive off a large chunk of its international operations to its low-cost Jetstar franchise are well advanced, with the airline looking to launch Jetstar flights from Australia to South-East Asia, China and possibly Japan in the second half of next year.

The national carrier is looking to lease longer-range aircraft for the budget airline, which initially will have a mandate to fly to destinations within a 10-hour flying range of Australia. It will form a major plank of Qantas's five-year plan to slash $3 billion from its cost base.

The Qantas board is expected to sign off plans for Jetstar International in early December. Jetstar International is expected to be run separately from Jetstar, which itself will launch international flights to New Zealand on December 1.

Like the domestic Jetstar, which was launched in May last year, it is expected the new carrier will take over less profitable international routes, such as Bali, Manila, Bangkok, Fukuoka in Japan and even Honolulu.

The carrier is also expected to open up more routes into Asia from smaller capital cities, such as Adelaide and Perth. Given the new Jetstar's longer range, it is speculated it will have two classes - economy and premium economy (or business).

Aside from attacking Qantas's cost base, the new Jetstar is also aiming to stem the growing incursion of carriers such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines on air traffic into Australia. Qantas's share of the international market into Australia fell from 30.4 to 28.3 per cent in the year to June.

The Qantas board is also expected to approve what could be the airline's largest fleet order. Qantas is looking at purchasing - and leasing - up to 100 new medium- and long-range aircraft. It is speculated a sizeable chunk of the order will be destined for Jetstar. Within Qantas ranks there is talk of the new airline even having a larger fleet than the domestic Jetstar, which will have a fleet of 23 jets by May next year.

The Qantas fleet order could include so-called "hub busting" ultra-long range aircraft such as the Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200ER, and medium-range planes such as the B787 and A350.

Given the aircraft could take several years to deliver, Qantas in the meantime is looking to lease aircraft for Jetstar's initial incursion into Asia. It is expected Jetstar could wait until it takes delivery of its fleet of A350s or 787s before launching flights to Europe and the US.

It is unclear what the expansion of Jetstar means for the future of Qantas's other Asia-focused budget operation, Australian Airlines.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon declined to comment yesterday on Jetstar's international expansion plans or if it could result in Qantas surrendering some routes. Nor would he comment on the possible ramifications on Qantas's heavily unionised 38,000-strong workforce.

At the full-year profit results in August, Mr Dixon said: "Jetstar is going to be such an important part of Qantas … it will be just as important as the main line."

Qantas's plans to boost the profile of Jetstar internationally could meet stiff resistance from pilots. A list of so-called "reform candidates" recently won control of the Australian and International Pilots Association. Their campaign for control of the union was spearheaded by opposition to Jetstar launching international flights.

========================================

[bonvol]

Don't worry...be happy!

The CP knows more than this bloke. All will be fine :rolleyes:

[Lodown]

"Jetstar is going to be such an important part of Qantas … it will be just as important as the main line."

I would guess it has a real good chance of being the main line. Once Jetstar has done its job of chipping away at union entitlements and expanding the Qantas reach into a low cost airline while still appealing to the business and first class pax, then the Qantas name will be transferred over to swallow Jetstar and Qantas will have achieved indirectly what it couldn't achieve by a frontal assault.

[Casper]

I agree with you, Lodown. The "heroes" of J* will make GD an offer he can't refuse!

[Australia2]

Now these WILL be interesting times !!

IMHO For anyone not in the top one-third of the QF seniority list the next few months are going to be very important.

Good luck with it all,

Cheers Oz2

[Ronnie Honker]

It is unclear what the expansion of Jetstar means for the future of Qantas's other Asia-focused budget operation, Australian Airlines.Australian was a convenient little diversion and a "dry run" by Dixon to see how the troops were going to respond (it seems that money isn't a problem when it comes to waging war against the enemy - the staff!).
I am afraid that we are at very serious x-road for QF mainline staff, and that unless we embark on some serious, outright confrontation with Dixon we're about to be scuttled.
This cancer has eaten well into QANTAS.

Jet* has to be stopped NOW from taking ANY international flying.
End of story (or end of QANTAS, as a real airline).

[RENURPP]

Talking to Jet* pilots they appear to be very proud that they will be taking work off QF and taking it by undercutting by what ever amount is required.

[ditzyboy]

It is terribley sad that Qantas is pitting fellow employees against one another. The sadder thing is that there is little either employee group can do - given that a united approach seems well and truley out of the question and far too hard for all concerned, it would seem. I think that a change in this regard is well and truley above any employee group anyway. Management have the balance of power, in my opinion.

There would have to be a point at which this approach will backfire on Qantas (management that is)... Anyone hazard a guess at what point that will be? This is certainly and odd way to run a company.

[HI'er]

Dixon and Co. must be drooling with eager anticipation.
He has now managed to avoid an employee vs company battle by setting up employee against employee.
If you allow it to happen, there can be only one lot of losers - the employees.

Jet Star pilots - imo - need to restrain themselves from being seduced by "newer, bigger, faster, further" toys and undercutting the incumbent QF pilots routes and conditions.
Your future actions are set to lay the basis for the next 20 years of airline pilots' conditions, and IMMEDIATELY affect those of the current Qantas pilots.
Resist it with all your might -for your own future, and that of many thousands more.
Please.

[hangar 9]

Qantas's plans to boost the profile of Jetstar internationally could meet stiff resistance from pilots. A list of so-called "reform candidates" recently won control of the Australian and International Pilots Association. Their campaign for control of the union was spearheaded by opposition to Jetstar launching international flights.

There is also a reform group about to take control of the LAME's


................I would like to see that..................


The Lame's have been sold out by their own for too long now, its time to stand up to these B#@!%&^D.

[Casper]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talking to Jet* pilots they appear to be very proud that they will be taking work off QF and taking it by undercutting by what ever amount is required.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid it's "game over," chaps. This rot began when the QF pilots left the AFAP and accelerated with the effective demise of the AFAP in the "late eighties." GD has won a lay down misere with the assistance of the trump jokers in J*.

[soldier of fortune]

i wonder what the dynamics of jet* int will be ----
let see

1. cabin crew recruited from some south east asian ****hole like bangladesh paid approx $1.50 per hour and based in thailand
2. fuel supplied from chepa petrol on the princes hwy and mixed with 80% ethanol
3. total engineering support from the gungzu aircraft maintenance company in china
4. catering suppied from the salvation army soup kitchen at kings cross
5.call center and admin ops based in the black hole of calcutter in india
6.ground support by aero scare--sorry i mean- care-

that should achive the dream low cost airline

[Howard Hughes]

Blame, blame, blame, why is it all you guys ever do is blame someone else? QF, Jet*, AA, Virgin, GD, AIPA, AFAP, heroes, white hats and many others are blamed here in these forums...

It's never your fault is it?

Take a long hard look, the only person responsible for the position of each individual, is the individual themself!! It is individual choices, not collective ones that have made this industry what it is! (ie: greed and short sightedness)

It is also your choice to make a difference on an individual level, sadly not many choose to accept that challenge, it is far simpler to go with the flow and BLAME someone else.:*

PS: One last thing how many individuals (not on behalf of various pilot bodies or interest groups) have contacted or gone to see GD to outline your concerns?

As I suspected...............:hmm:

[Trashed Aviator]

there is plenty of f/os and captains already type rated on these machines who would come home in a jiffy , looks like payback time from the dispute.
Some have spoken to dixon personally look out............

[soldier of fortune]

type rated on the A350 AND B787
I LIKE TO MEET those guy's


nothing supprise's me from the hero's of 89 -

[HI'er]

Pilots from both sides of the (1989) fence understand how destructive it is for their future, to become involved in discussions with managements that are out with the sole intention of degrading conditions of the pilot group.

It is now time for QANTAS and Jet* pilots to step up to the plate and prove that you have indeed learnt lessons from 1989 - or else be prepared to be shat upon again.

[soldier of fortune]

yeh -looks like management are going to dish up the **** sandwich again-- no doubt joke*pilots will take the biggest bite and leave a bad taste in every one's mouth.
i can just imagine the back room deals to crew these new aircraft.
"oh hi - will fly these aircraft for anything you want us to"

[DutchRoll]

It'll be interesting to see how or if this affects the EBA vote. I'm just still shaking my head in disbelief that there are guys out there in the mainline group (although I believe and hope a minority) who are quite happy to roll over onto their tummies and offer the CEO unfettered access to their nether regions with nary a faint, high-pitched whimper.

I don't advocate being stupid or rash about what's happening, but the pilot group could do with some balls.

[Transition Layer]

Whilst there is a lot of speculation going on here, I can't for the life of me understand why the Jetstar pilots aren't willing to say "Excuse me Dixon, Borghetti, Joyce, but Qantas mainline pilots are paid $X00,000 to fly an A330, why can't we get the same amount if the aircraft is in Jetstar colours?"

Can any Jetstar pilot answer that question? Why on earth would you be willing to sell yourself short for essentially the same job?

When will they realise that low cost does not have to mean low salaries?

TL

[The_Equaliser]

J* have the inside running on this one and the pilots are not over a barrel this time, as they were when J* was created. They have the power in this process and should be able to demand greater remuneration. QF does not have a ready supply of trained pilots up its sleave to threaten J* with. QF mainline are still short of pilots and are recruiting heavily still and will do for the forseable future. J* are absorbing new aircraft all the time with the need for more crews. It just remains to be seen if they use their bargaining power wisely.

[ur2]

Looks to me like it will be a separate division to Jetstar domestic. And by that the j* pilots probably won't be flying the j* Int a/c anyway, so it will be a whole new bunch of heros returning to oz that will be taking those jobs.

[bugsquash1]

All these theories are wrong!

It all started when QF mainline pilots refused entry to mainline of the regionals in court and finished with Impulse being bought and Southern pilots hung out to dry by mainline pilots.:mad:

QF management must of rubbed their hands together when they realised at this stage other pilot groups owed the mainliners no allegiance.

Therefore the mainliners set themselves up for the fall.
Enter Geoff who said "any pilot groups who would like to screw the mainline pilot group step this way because they will screw you if you dont follow my lead.":{

Being a clever pilot group who had noticed what had gone on in the past the Impulse pilots took Geoff's advice and look where they are now.:ok:

Viva The Revolution!!!:E

Until we have 1 pilot group all prepare for tough times.

[swh]

QF mainline are still short of pilots and are recruiting heavily still and will do for the forseable future.

I thought QF could run a 744 with 3 crew, instead of 4, and base people in SIN, cut down the number of people you need. Move flying off domestic to J* and reduce the domestic flying.

Took 10 seconds to come up with that, wonder what guys who do it for a living come up with.

[Sonny Hammond]

Mainline screwed Southern?? What planet are you on?

The only people who screwed Southern was the QF management.

What most of the anti mainliners seem to forget is that the majority of mainline pilots are young guys and girls with families, who had nothing to do with the dispute in 89 and nothing to do with the politics involved with all the other little games that have been played over the years by the usual suspects.

So mainline pilots are painted as this bunch of pricks. Believe that if it means you can sleep at night but that truth is mainliners are no different to you.

[cart_elevator]

I would like to see (dreaming here!!) the international pilots and f/a's gang together .... we are all being screwed.... the international division of both jobs are under a major threat (pilots by jet* international, cabin crew by shorthaul/ jetstar international!) let them see what happens whehn there aint no pilots or cabin crew to run their 747's !!!!! yes - just a dream !:{

[flyingins]

"What most...... seem to forget is that the majority.......are young guys and girls with families, who had nothing to do with the dispute in 89 and nothing to do with the politics involved with all the other little games that have been played over the years by the usual suspects."

Sounds an awful lot like most Jetstar pilots too, Sonny.

Just remember, "The Usual Suspects" are airline management, the spiralling costs of fuel and the increase of competition in just about every market Qantas flies to.

Just like mainline pilots, Jetstar pilots just fly the planes.

[Rostov]

There is a fair bit of rot going on here, but i would suggest to the jet* haters in Qf look in your own backyard. I seem to remember when AIPA shut the gate hard on VQ pilots for representation at the Qf buy-out stage of impulse the cancaer was planted. Even now Jetstar pilots need to beg and plead for information to join AIPA. Why the hell should they think anything else apart from f--k this they obviously couldn't give a s--t.
Point the finger if it makes you feel better but until the hopefully minority of VOCAL Qf pilots and their union recognise JQ pilots are here to stay and stop treating them at arms length then nothing will ever change. Except the obvious the disintegration of what was a great airline and the RAPID expansion of it's replacement.

Call the JQ pilots whatever you want your banging your head against a brick wall. If you continue to verbally s--t-can them you leave them no alternative but to venture into the future without any reason to look back. And that is a real problem for this industry no matter which side of the camp you sit in.

But I guess for some of the boffins here it's just easier to whinge and point fingers than actively try to fix the problem... That is simply division, for whatever reason seems good at the time.:ok: Good one boffins, you have become what you hate. You are grass cutting your own bretherin through hate not money.
Its all the same result at the end of the day, Jet* expand because you give them no reason to to care for your side.
Sonny Hammond has hit the nail on the head. Jq pilots are the same as any pilot. They have just had no reason to listen to the tripe because it's all negative toward them. Would you listen to someone who said "think about what your doing to us you bottom dwelling rot of a sub standard pilot".
I think not. you would think. Screw you shaggs I'll show you who is sub standard.
Wake up. now. Jetstar International is the last chance Qf has to harness Jetstar pilots as a friend not a foe. If this is not achieved it is and will be CHECKMATE.
GAME OVER.

[DeBurcs]

type rated on the A350 AND B787... Like to see thatLook no further than the abundance of B777 and A330/A340 qualified pilots. Easy.

[Sonny Hammond]

OMG! Do we have several posts in agreeance? Surely a first for prune...

Flyingings, I wasn't up any pilot group, I was merely clarifying the position of the mainliners for those who use the past as a angle to 'hate' the mainliners.
I agree, Jet*, Natjet, a lot of VB pilots, QF mainline are all in the same boat.

The only thing I will disagree with Rostov on is the checkmate bit. The only check move here is for GD who gets christmas early (again) and has his planes crewed for peanuts.
Flying around oz on the cheap, doing hard rosters with bare conditions is one thing, try it internationally and life(style) will be less pleasant.

Ultimately, we all lose.

[rammel]

As an aside to the crewing debate as to who gets the flying.

Did anyone notice the bull$hit the managers spin in the media re EK and SQ. In the article it says the expansion is to stop EK and SQ into Australia but neither of them fly into Australia from the ports mentioned.

[Rostov]

My comment of Checkmate was to illustrate the point that, If AIPA drops the ball on this one Jet* will be of the size that will make unity almost impossible. Once they are international with no AIPA assistance what is their use to Jet*? They got there by themseleves and they wont look back. Division will rule for the forseeable future. No need for them to want to join AIPA when they are as big as mainline, they will do there own thing. just like right up to this moment.

[ditzyboy]

Lt Dan -
Jetstar undermining employees? Never.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Nothing would surprise me...fudging the numbers of FA's? There's a shock!

And yet the company is the first to complain about the number of crew being called out on days off and live days (who's calling who here fellas?)

15 crew resigning from SEQ in one month! Surprise sur-bloody-prise!

It's the whole "I can't understand why the crew are upset" gaping-mouth-open look we get that infuriates me!!

WHAT PLANET ARE THESE PEOPLE ON!?

[ditzyboy]

Surely the latest bout of cabin crew resignations in SYD would be far more than 15?! I have literally lost count.

You are so right about management's look of surprise when they say "why are crew so unhappy?" It looks so genuine! Makes you wonder... :confused:

[ur2]

Just remind me again, are we talking about VB or J* ?

[The Pirate]

Hey, Jetstar guys and girls (real ones) please dont hang out any of our dirty washing in public. We have prided ourselves for 5 years in keeping above all the crap that is sprouted on this forum.

Join in debate by all means but dont give anything away. The only way to win is play the cards very close to your chest........ But what I can tell everyone ('cause I am so happy) is that I am starting my A330 course in Dec.

"Viva the Revolution........... we will do it for less"

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHhhh! The Pirate.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

"Viva the Revolution........... we will do it for less"

And there, writ large, summed up in one immortal quote, is the reason why the Pilot profession in Australia is screwed.

Thank you J* pilots:\

[Casper]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Viva the Revolution........... we will do it for less"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alley cats never change their spots!

[The Pirate]

Meaowwww! Your very welcome ............

You brought it upon yourselves .......... look at any revolution in history ........... understand the reasons why people revolt ........... If we hadnt done it someone else would have .........

"Fly the Skull and Crossbones"

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Wonder how smug you'll be when someone comes along and under-cuts you.

Your revolution in action...?

D*** Head

[The Pirate]

I am sure someone will eventually, that is the nature of the beast now. All anyone ever thinks about is the money. If you are in Aviation for the money maybe it's time to find something else to do.

Me, I just like flying aeroplanes and I have been undercut before in other parts of the world. One accepts it or one gets out. Be realistic my friend....

"Fly the Skull and Crossbones"

[polemic]

After every third post in relation to anything to do with Jetstar or Jetstar International Rostovs post on the previous page should be inserted than maybe just maybe YOU WILL UNDERSTAND HOW TO STOP SHOOTING YOURSELVES IN THE FOOT. Not all of us are like The Pirate at the moment.

[Believe Brother]

'Join in debate by all means but dont give anything away. The only way to win is play the cards very close to your chest........ But what I can tell everyone ('cause I am so happy) is that I am starting my A330 course in Dec'

Come on guys, wind up alert.

[Tickle Me Pink]

Pirate

When you finally spot that first curly black hair growing around that sack of yours, you will realise that all you are doing is cutting your own nuts off.

Until then mate go fly your skull and crossbones and leave aviation to the pros.

[The Pirate]

Dont tell me: "Qantas are the Pros" Please!

Or define "Pros"

[Tickle Me Pink]

You are very quick to assume that I am a QF pilot. Last time I checked I could have sworn that the airplane my butt was strapped to had an orange streak to it.

So do us a favour Pirate and remember that a PROFESSIONAL in any occupation does not actively seek to undermine the pay and conditions of his/her chosen profession.

You do it and then proudly boast about it while wearing a pirates costume.

What are you, stupid?

[lurker69]

Right
The thought process at Jetstar was "OK. We're starting a new Long-haul carrier. The board hasn't approved any A/C yet and nothing is official. What should we do first? I know, get that guy 'anus pirate' or 'the pirate' or whatever his name is a start date- ASAP. After all the course takes 5 WHOLE DAYS! We've got to get started NOW!!!!!!"
Please, I know BS when I see it.

[The Pirate]

My humble apologies T-M-P.

Yes probably I am stupid; to play the role that people on this threat expect us to be.

OK wind up over!

But it get some nice responses .........

[Vorsicht]

"you have the balls to take our jobs and make fun of it..."

There in lies the problem

Until you arrogant pr*cks realise that they are not YOUR jobs, and that everyone is entitled to try and work, then you have no chance of beating the management at this game.

[Sonny Hammond]

Actually,

When I turn to work, and do the job and then get paid for it, that is MY job.

When someone comes along, via the back door, and wispers to the boss he'll do the same for about 1/2, well heck, he IS taking my job.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

[Vorsicht]

If you are still employed by the same employer and continue to turn up to work as requested, then i would suggest that you still have your job and nobody has taken it. All that has happened is that someone who hasn't been as fortunate as you has found a way to support his family as well.

[hotnhigh]

Yeah right on Vorsh$t. How about the support shown to the blokes in the west who are trying to support families. What was the deal you organised for them???? That's right, a pay cut.

[HI'er]

Until you arrogant pr*cks realise that they are not YOUR jobs, and that everyone is entitled to try and work, then you have no chance of beating the management at this game.There isn't any arrogance attached to posters who consider jobs as "their jobs".
That is what they were led to believe was the case on their successful appointment to their position.

F/O's join, expecting to be promoted to Captain, if they can perform satisfactorily and keep their noses clean - don't they?

D.E. Captains join, expecting - or being told - that THEIR position is one they can expect to hold, if they do likewise - don't they?

Personally I don't see any groups of pilots actively "swimming around" looking to steal other pilots' jobs.
But to keep the incumbents on their toes, management like to give the impression that this IS the case.
And to put the cat amongst the pigeons, Dixon (and Oldmeadow) now try to set in place a scenario where pilots look as though they're ready, willing, and able to shaft their peers.

Those (pilots) with a modicum of foresight and sensibility will realise that by shafting their co-workers today, they are setting themselves up to be royally ramrodded tomorrow, using the same technique(s).

It's time to say "Enough is enough" - to put the "I, me, mine" aside, and realise that ALL of your tomorrows lie in the decisions you will make in the next few days.

Look at the history of Australian airlines - see where they went, and where they are, and WHY things are as they are.
Respect each other for what the other has achieved, and for what YOU hope to yourself.

"Ask not what your fellow pilot can do for you, but what you can do for him, because the wheel continues to turn."

[Vorsicht]

What a load of Cr@p.

It's business you idiots. Nobody owes you a living. If they (management) can find someone to do the same work as you for less money aren't they etitled to employ them.

What all you guys seem to want is for everyone else to give up their dream so you can enjoy yours.

If you guys showed some backbone and went on strike (or at lease tried to flex some union muscle) in support of all the GA/second tier airline guys, to help improve their conditions, then i would definitely have some respect, and it would change my opinion entirely.

But as long as you are sitting on your fat wallets, doing f all for the amount of money you get paid, and expecting the poor sods below you to fall on their sword in order to protect your career, then I'm afraid that I couldn't give a damn if someone undercuts your precious position.

[FirstOfficer]

Why is it that any discussion always revert back to insults?

[HI'er]

But as long as you are sitting on your fat wallets, doing f all for the amount of money you get paid, and expecting the poor sods below you to fall on their sword in order to protect your career, then I'm afraid that I couldn't give a damn if someone undercuts your precious position.No-one is "expecting the poor sods below you to fall on their sword in order to protect your career".
Each of us has had to tread that same career path without expecting special treatment from those ahead of us.
Each of us ahead of you, realises that the path was hard going.

No-one is asking anyone to foresake their dreams, but only to realise that each of us aspires to achieve our realisations to the best of our ability.
Those abilities are not dispensed equally from one to another.

p.s You smell a lot like Pass-A-Frozo,

[Vorsicht]

I see

It's because of your ability.


Please refer to my previous post


"Until you arrogant pr*cks realise that they are not YOUR jobs, and that everyone is entitled to try and work, then you have no chance of beating the management at this game."

[*Lancer*]

Lets paint all Qantas aircraft in Greyhound Coach colours and take it from there. What more do our fellow industry drivers want? We can all have jobs for Australia's premier coach service. After all, they're just big people movers! Sounds great.

[Sonny Hammond]

Vorsicht,

And when we strike who will act as strike busters?

Nice attempt at trying to come across as balanced, but you are not.
You allude yourself about how horrible all the mainline pilots are so you can sleep at night.
If you are doing an A330 course in dec, you are taking someone elses job and that makes you a scab.

[polemic]

Sonny, If our company gets larger aircraft and offers the flying of those aircraft to us we are not taking your jobs and therefore not scabs it is your company that is taking your jobs. the sooner you realise that the better for the whole industry.

Having said that the only question is than what is a realistic wage, obvious answer is x amount more(now you may find this hard to believe but management is driving this we will only get a look at it in order to vote if it acceptable or not) that is of course if there is in fact a proposal(this is a rumour network after all). Attitudes displayed by our peers have an influence on this and at the moment the only attitudes I hear from you guys drive that x amount down not up.

[Sonny Hammond]

the sooner you realise that the better for the whole industry.

Can you explain how this will be?

If the company gets more A330's then you are correct, but if you end up flying the existing ones I find it hard to see how anyone can say the jobs have not been taken.

All I see is pay and conditions going down the tubes and you blokes forever trying to justify it.

[polemic]

Simple answer.one harmonious group of pilots.

You cant be harmonious with a group that treats you with contempt and will stick the boot in at any opportunity. nuff said.

It shouldn't matter who we get jets from (if we do get them).
They may not come from Qantas but if they do it is your management giving them (call them scabs if it makes you happy).

and finally the old pay issue, not all of us where happy with the EBA as per the results(with reference to the initial flying of the bus for 717 rates, a completely different isssue, had no choice not even going to argue that with anyone because if you cant see that I am wasting my time).
Bear in mind we are not the lowest paid jet drivers in the qantas group but you don't see us verbally attacking them, why because it is counter productive. we have our own price pressures.

[Pete Conrad]

The Jetstar management then threaten the Jetstar pilots, that if they don't support the EBA, then they won't get the Tasman flying, hence displacing Jetconnect pilots. You guys at Jetstar may not be the lowest paid in the Qantas group, but you sure as hell know how to set the moral benchmarks.

Jetstar is Dixons lap dog, it curls up on his leg, panders to his masters every whim and then goes and ****s on everyone and everything else.

What goes around comes around though, just look at the poor morale and high resignations in the cabin crew ranks at Jetstar, pretty soon the pilots will be in the same boat, if it already hasn't started to happen.

[polemic]

Pete's in I'm out sensible dialouge has ended back to the name calling boys.

[rescue 1]

Pilots are always focused on themselves, and for whatever reason, tend to shut out the factors that build a business called an airline.

The consumer/passenger who pays your wages (eg next door neighbour) demands that they pay less; Yield recently attempted to move the fares up $10 dollars, yet immediately the market responded and the forward booking profile dropped - just a ten dollar rise!! You cannot make money nor survive by flying an empty airplane until the opposition runs out of money - just doesn't work. We all want to drive shiny new planes - they have to be paid somehow.

I think that the answer is to champion a campaign convincing "joe public" the real cost of flying, and secondly I notice that the aircraft and engine manufactures are still not assisting the industry by offering a fair and reasonable deal for all.

The pilot group, in fact the entire airline industry, needs to work out a solution to resolve these issues and the rest will fall into place.

[Ronnie Honker]

The consumer/passenger who pays your wages (eg next door neighbour) demands that they pay less

Remind me again how much Dixon and the Dame receive in salaries and bonuses, and then add in all those other upper level exec salaries who contribute diddly squat to the day-to-day operation.
That is where the real fat that needs to be trimmed lies.

[Lodown]

There's a common thread between all the insult chuckers...
There are so few aviation companies to aspire to and there's a relatively large market of pilots untrained in any other skills who are busting their butts to get some type of return on a very large investment. Those who are lucky enough to have the good airline jobs don't want to slide backwards and those who don't yet have that airline job want to climb up. If the differential wasn't so great between what the non-airline pilot has now and where he/she wants to go, the motivation wouldn't be so strong. Airline management are trying to pull the top rungs down. It's part of their jobs. Pilots, on the other hand, should be working to pull the lower rungs up instead of wasting time chucking insults at one another.

[Vorsicht]

What many of the mainline guys have failed to grasp is that their jobs are already gone. They just dont know it yet.

It has been said many times before that if Q are going to compete with Emirates/Singapore/Etihad/any number of start up indian airlines that may be successful, then they have to lower their cost base.

This is not just pilots, but across the board. Maintenance, F/A's, ground staff, aircraft leasing costs,fuel you name it.

Pilots are just part of the equation, but still an important part. You guys can stick your head in the sand and pretend that it is other pilots screwing you, but it is business, it is the industry, globalisation, shareholders, economy not your fellow pilots.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You cannot expect other pilots to refuse jobs in the futile attempt to preserve your conditions.

I would suggest that if you managed to protect yourselves through say, industrial action or similar, then the end result would be that Dixon or his successor will eventually shut Q mainline down, handing over the routes to the established J*, and you will all be out of jobs. Once that is accomplished, J* will be rebranded Qantas, you guys will be out of work, except for the "scabs" that have taken positions with J* (and there will be many), and the corporation will continue.

You wont beat this utill a genuine shortage of pilots appears. It is no different to the stock market or the property market. Supply and demand. If there are more pilots than jobs, the conditions will deteriorate and also the opposite will be true.

The problem then will be that airlines will be cutting ticket prices to maintain market share, thus losing money, and only the ones with deep pockets will survive. Will this be Qantas? When stacked up against Singapore/Emirates etc. I dont know. Remembering that Qantas doesn't just have to be profitable, but it has to provide a reasonable return to its shareholders.

What i can tell you is that your job is not secure, despite your wishing it was. And there are far greater forces at play here than just some snot nosed G/A pilot wanting your job. The sheltered workshop of Australian aviation is slowly moving on to the global stage and will go the same way as all deregulated countries.

Ask anyone who has worked in Europe or the US, most have worked for at least one airline that has gone bankrupt. Ask anyone at Delta or United how secure their job is. Ask the guys at Ryanair about your conditions. They earn as much as most Q guys, but they work a hell of a lot harder for it. If you want to maintain your salaries then you can expect to work for them. What you guys do now does not qualify as work when compared to many of your competitors. You may not like that, but that is the way it is.

How many of you do 9 hour sectors, back of the clock, 2 pilot then have a 24 hour rest and come back? Or do 8 day trips with 7-8 hour sectors, consecutive 24 hour rests, two pilots, no rest and arriving home at 0530 local time. I do, and so do most guys flying for Qantas competitors. So that is my benchmark.

All this crap that gets put on here complaining about GD and Co's salary and bonuses just highlights how uneducated you guys are about how a corporation runs. Ask the call centre employee who lost his job to someone in india. It is happening all around you, and you guys are in the firing line. GD has been working toward this for years, and you aren't going to stop it by bleating on Pprune.

Rant over.

Having said that, I do wish you guys all the best. I would love to be getting paid as much as you do for doing as little as you do. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out your flying club days are drawing to an end.

[Calligula]

Vorshiit.


Have a look at the going rate for a contract pilot o/s - much more than JQ scabbery is currently bargaining for.


Also what are CX + KA guys getting ? - both airlines doing well.


You have swallowed company propaganda hook line and sinker. GOD has a pathological hatred for his staff. That drives him and nothing else.

Your judgements about our work practices are crap. You have obviously never seen the lines of the B767 or B737 fleets.

The slipping patterns you describe are due to the schedule - not to do with our award.

There is plenty of scope for the company to increase productivity within the CA. They chose not to because they are lasy and it is easier to outsource the work to moaning $cabbs.

I cannot understand why you think it is unnatural for mainline guys and girls to want to protect their T's & C's.

I think you are a management stooge and not even a pilot

[Ronnie Honker]

QANTAS are already competing quite successfully on the overseas scene, and showing record profits to prove it.

No-one - but no-one, is worth $6 MILLION dollars + package per year - and especially someone who is yet again forecasting more gloom and doom for the company which from which he receives these outlandish payouts.

It doesn't take an astute individual to cut costs simply but cutting staff numbers.
If he had any talent, I would expect to see a CEO making fine adjustments to improve efficiency of work schedules, and having office deadwood actively working at the coalface, instead of taking extended lunch breaks, running off to the loo every 30 minutes, and generally not being where they are supposed to be (their desks) more than half the time.
QANTAS carries far too much chaff in their offices - chaff that could, in the main, be put on as part time labour and be just as productive as they are now, but paid much less.
There is no shortage of office staff who would jump at the chance to have some permanent temp work.

[Vorsicht]

Fair Dinkum, you guys are clueless

The shareholders obviously think he is worth that much. And at the end of the day they are the only ones that count.

[Sonny Hammond]

Vorsicht,

You just desrcibed the shorthaul award. More efficient that what Jet* and VB work their pilots to.

Guess what? Most who have worked both contracts in QF prefer Shorthaul.

The new gen of QF pilots already live in this new world.

Regarding the shareholders thinking GD is worth his money, been to a SGM? The only way votes for payrises get up at these things is cause the big investors (super funds, big investment firms etc..) are bought off and there sheer volume of votes makes it a done deal. Plenty of the individual shareholders (IE The actual opinion of the owner!!!!) vote down these payrises and have plenty to say about what goes on at the joint.

And obviously the sharemarket isn't rapt by the way things are going (you cant totally blame fuel) cause the shareprice has no pulse. Maybe here the market knows whats really going on to protect the profit and is talking with its wallet.

Next....

[swh]

If you are doing an A330 course in dec, you are taking someone elses job and that makes you a scab.

Few thoughts ...

1) - What does it make a person taking a A350, A340, A380, 787, or 777 course for QF ?

2) - What did it make QF A330 drivers when they did line flying with KA and others ?

3) - How many times have I read on here that QF drivers and cabin crew hate the A330 ?

4) - A330 Captains on $187-197/hr and F/O's on AUD$100-$130 / hr, I think that’s more than any other QF fleet apart from the 744.

5) - How many times have I heard they X flies for QF because X mum/dad works for QF and helped him get in, is nepotism taking some one else’s job ?

6) - How many times have I read on here that cadets are taking the job of more experienced pilots already working in the QF group ?

7) - Easterns, Sunnies, National Jet, Skywest or any other airlines pilot would consider that statement to be elitists b/s

8) - No comments of contract pilots and aircraft doing Qantas freight flying around with QF call signs.

9) - Not a peep from mainline when QF set up Jetstar Asia or Thai Air Cargo. QF now have another source for experienced international pilots.

10) - Management know that QF mainline is an easy target, many people in QF sill cannot get over the integration of domestic into international

11) - The pay and conditions rot started when international and domestic pilots within QF were too greedy to see that a unified pay deal was needed across the board years ago so management could used the internal domestic and international pay divide to start lowering conditions internally.

12) - If you cannot get your own internal backyard fixed and sort out the differences between domestic and international pilots, seniority lists and alike, bit rich to start looking over the fence.

13) – APIA is the minority pilot group in Australia, refusal years ago and more recently to let subsidiary airlines to join has made it a minority, minorities are easy targets to be quashed

14) – The people who will pay for this are the F/Os and S/Os, as Jetstar takes away more flying from QF mainline promotions will grind to a proverbial halt

15) – Hope the cockpit situational awareness is better than the industrial one.

[Vorsicht]

You are almost correct.

It is a shorthaul type award, but in a long haul airline.

There is a significant difference between working your butt off and ending up in the same or similar time zone. Plus i doubt there are many short haul jobs that have 24 hour layovers. More likely they are around 14 hrs which is significantly better for fatigue management than 24 hrs.

That is why most of the pilots prefer short haul.

[Sonny Hammond]

I agree entirely, which is why I am really disappointed to see the degradation occuring in longhaul.

Quite frankly, crap pay and conditions combined with the personal sacrifice that comes with long haul (like constant jet lag, and if you thinks thats nothing, you wait, missing christmas, school hols, birthdays, easter, weddings, anniversary's etc etc) will make the job totally not worth it.

The guys new to it will think all their christmas' have come at once, until christmas does.

SWH,

1. Lucky
2. Commercial agreement between 2 airlines (what is your point here?)
3. You tell me
4. It should be, it was always classic + 3%
5. Yes it is, when there is a plentiful supply from the existing industries, however looking to the future there will be a cadet system reqd
6. You tell me and i'll agree with the point
7. I don't think so considering they have never had a look in yet J* slide in the back
8. with you on that, I joke those freight guys are probably the highest paid QF pilots anywhere (the silence is deafening eh???)
9. Agreed
10. Agreed, we are dealing with the hard done by's (TN ex dispute) vs The silver spooners (1960 vintage cadets, been in QF since they were 16) Neither are very smart about the future..
11. Agreed see 10
12. Agreed see 10
13. Agreed see 10
14. Agreed, thats me.
15. Definately agree, sometimes wonder....
16. My daughter wants the computer.......

[DeBurcs]

Click here..... (http://www.adforum.com/creative_archive/2005/AW37_ANDY/reel_detail2.asp?ID=48595&TDI=VDKzZ74a&PAGE=1&bShop=&awcat=&ob=intlevel&awid=) and press the PLAY button over on the left.

It's a great little song about the hundreds of low-cost pilots now flourishing in Australian skies.

Do you really get what you pay for??

[oicur12]

"When someone comes along, via the back door, and whispers to the boss he'll do the same for about 1/2, well heck, he IS taking my job."

How many Qantas pilots have been retrenched as a result of Jetstar?

"Each of us has had to tread that same career path without expecting special treatment from those ahead of us."

Exactly what special treatment are pilots employed by Jetstar hoping to receive?

"Have a look at the going rate for a contract pilot o/s - much more than JQ scabbery is currently bargaining for.Also what are CX + KA guys getting ? - both airlines doing well."

The "going rate" overseas will always be higher than Australia in markets such as Asia where locally trained pilots are in short supply. A more accurate yardstick would be to compare salary levels with pilots gaining airline employment in Canada and the US. Their aviation industry is strikingly similar to Australia ¡V especially with regard to the number of experienced pilots available in GA and commuter airlines.

"The slipping patterns you describe are due to the schedule - not to do with our award"

But mostly, when compared to SQ, CX, TG, MH, GF and EK, to name a few, the slipping patterns are a result of totally outdated award provisions.

[Transition Layer]

Sorry to detract from the thread, but DeBurcs that is the funniest sh1t I have heard in a long time.

:ok:
TL

[International Trader]

TLayer,

Funniest thing you have heard for a long time?

Where have you been? In the cockpit of a Qantas 747?
I suppose if you were, it probbably is funnier than listening to the captain talk about himself.
Want to know who is the Qantas pilot at a party?
Don't worry, he will tell you......and everybody else!

You guys are unbelievable!
Do you really believe that you are the best and only persons with the ability and right to fly aeorplanes?
Do you really believe that no one can do it better and therefore the world has to pay your price to get safety?

Forgotten about the "nineteenth" at Bangkok?

Boeings are so simple to fly that novices are trained on them every day. Stop the "smoke and mirrors" C-ap.
Airbusses too, you just need French as a second language.


There are hundreds that are better than you and they are coming your way. Make room or get crushed in the stampede.

Unions are important in that they stopped virtual slavery but, your has turned into a cancer that will comsume your very existance.
Too late to cut it out now.
Maybe your should have taken a less "more holly than thou" approach back in 1989.
Time to pay the piper and soon you may not be able to call Australia home. You may have to work for a living like all the others.

Hey, here"s a thought:

You could all get together and tell Dickson that ,if you all take a giant emema, the resulting loss of weight cause by the combined massive expulsion of SH-T would create such a weight reduction that he could increase his cargo capacity on the aircraft.
You could use this as bargaining tool for a wage increase due to increased productivity.
It would have to be some enema, though.
Perhaps one called .............JETSTAR.
:ok:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

You guys are so spoilt , you want it all , lucky you were in QF and not Ansett...
If you want more pay and a widebody endorsement go and fly overseas theres lots of jobs and your management know the majority of you will not leave the country so the balls in your court really , and yes many guys will come from o/seas to fly for jet* just to go home they have already made enough cash o?seas and want the good Aussie lifestyle and a flying job so you can whinge all you like , nothing will change unless you change it your self.
You should see what the canadian pilots get paid now ,they would die to fly for VB or Jet*......................................

Careful what you wish for...............:ouch:

[Wun Wing Lo]

wow... you can really tell the guys that still have a chip on their shoulder bout not making the cut.... :{ oh well at least some will let them pay their way into a job.

Of course they never applied because of how stuck up etc QF pilots are...

most of us are good blokes just getting on with the job... as i suspect most of the J* and VB guys are too.

i guess some are just too slow to realise that if the QF guys get knocked off their perch the upward pressure on their own wages will vanish.

When this all started the general opinion was that J* and VB were grossly underpaid. Now their seems to be a push to make it look as though the QF guys are grossly overpaid and the fools with the inferiority complex are helping to push that idea.

I can just see it now.... J* pilots refuse paycut and slash wages by 25 % becuase they believe they make too much.

Or is overpaid defined as anyone who gets more than you do.

Wake up... although were not exactly on the same side we do have enough common interest to NOT work against each other. Wouldnt it be more sensible for you guys to be saying... Well actually the QF scale is about right... we should be where they are. It would work for all of us... you guys have a push for higher pay and we take some of the pressure of our pay to go down.

For all managements talk about concern for the long term viability of our respective companies how many of them are facing a pay cut?

But unfortunately some are more interested in carrying on vendetta's becuase they have wounded ego's. I suspect these are the guys who continually let everyone know how good they are and what they do.

[Capn Bloggs]

Wun Wing, well said.

[International Trader]

Sounds to me like One Hung wants others to do the dirty work for him while he sits safely in his "sheltered workshop".
Sacrifice the J* guys like pawns but, tell them there will be something in it for them.

Say there was a joint effort.
How about a real joint effort.....say.... integration by similar seniority numbers?
You know what I mean ...No 1 at QF, followed by No1 at J*;
No 2 at QF followed by No2 at J* ,and so on.

Haarumfff! is the call from the QF masses.
Unthinkable,after all,they never made the "cut".

There are plenty of pethetic losers in QF. Plenty of skeletons in that cupboard and obviously ( and this means you One Hung) .....
more than one "Warren."

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

IT, you are just sh*t stirring and you know it.

Wun wing puts forward a very reasonable post and you respond with vitriol. Get the chip of your shoulder, it's making you a very small man.

A tie-up with the Jetstar pilots, via a Y list would be the way everyone wins here. With both parties having a vested interest in doing the best possible deal we could have J* pilots being paid the market rate and eventual access to mainline flying; and mainline FO's and SO's keeping some semblance of a career path.

How about we focus on that rather than yelling insults across the divide?

[pondoklabu]

Ok gentlemen time for a very deep breath all of you. For the record I don't work for Qantas, I am just a simple expat pilot making a living overseas, but here is my small take on all of this.

To all the Qantas pilots, stay focused and united you all work for a fantastic airline with a very proud and deserved history, but the jetstar pilots are just trying to survive, they have jumped from being cannon fodder to players and a lot of them still have there heads spinning, they are growing so fast they need help and guidance not ridicule.

To the Jetstar pilots, look you have to understand allot of what you say and write is very antagonistic especially to other pilots and not just Qantas pilots that are fighting for there careers, there are thousands of Australian expat pilots that are working overseas that would love to come home to a good job in a secure industry, please be very careful you are not just setting a new standard for Australian pilots but all future pilots who haven't even thought about becoming a pilot yet.

You may not know it but you are worth allot more than you think, listen to your Qantas piers you may just have the same ideals, you just don't know yet because of all the mud throwing.

I hope some of this makes sense, but I am not holding my breath

[blueloo]

I cannot for the life of me understand why everybody should be united under the one list Y or otherwise. Jetstar, Eastern etc are part of the QANTAS Group Yes, but they are seperate companies.

This will not fix the problem.

Another solution is needed. It has to encompase the entire aviation industry. I have no idea what the answer is. Possibly, what the doctors do - limit the numbers, set levels amongst themselves so that people can't under cut each other.

By doing something external (it is a form of independant self regulation) you can by-pass CEOs cutting wages, and you can by-pass those people prepared to undercut each other.


At the moment all this bitching between us, chips on shoulders and just plain stupidity will not help.

All we need is someone with the will and means to organise it.

[Vorsicht]

Unfortunately Wun Wing Lo has summed the situation perfectly.

He thinks that everyone that is not at Qantas is less of a pilot than him and his colleagues. And because of this genetic inferiority, the non Qantas pilots should sacrifice their own career ambitions lest they have an impact on the lofty aspirations of the chosen ones at Q.

Why don't you guys do something constructive like invite all australian pilots to be part of your union. That way you could have some constructive dialogue on how to improve conditions for everyone.

Sorry, i forgot. Qantas guys dont want to improve conditions for everyone, they just want everyone else to suffer in order to protect their own conditions.

I also forgot that Qantas pilots cant even agree on what conditions are right for themselves let alone consider the position of the lesser individuals that "didn't make the cut".

Wun Wing, if only you knew how agressively average Qantas drivers are. And what that means is that they are the same as every other airline pilot group in the world. Average.

I would bet a years salary that any jetstar driver could slot into your seat and be doing just as good a job as you are. You are not special and that will be shown to you when your job is under threat and someone who "mised the cut" is flying your routes in a Jetstar aircraft, under the Qantas umbrella.

[Jetsbest]

I'm QF, I agree that QF recruiting don't have a monopoly on common sense, undoubtedly QF pilots have a spread of abilities like any other company, so I believe all Jetstar pilots should have been recruited to QF, then seconded to Jetstar if they wanted to go; after all, as an airline in the QF group, Jetstar is inextricably linked and synonymous with all those things the QF marketers love to sell. This 'separate airline' line rightly makes a mockery of the QF recruiting 'standard' in that when they find a pilot who will (or perhaps has to) do it for less, s/he suddenly meet the 'standard'. I say "ditch the navel-gazing etherial 'standard' and employ real, experienced, and qualified pilots to the Qantas group!" Having said that, I'd like to add that;

1. I reject the inference that we're inefficient! Most of my inefficiencies are driven by sales/marketing choices which send QF jets to far-flung places only 3 times per week... NOT due to my contract.

2. QF 737s can, and do, longer 'days' than Jetstar. With multi-sector short-hop days it's easier than for 7+ hour sectors and the similarly consumer-driven schedules in long-haul flying.

3. I aspire to a flying career, not a grinding roster routine which will take 5 years off my life if I try to keep it up for over 20 years. Why gloat about who can do more sectors/hours on back-to-back days without seeing your wife/kids/pets or sleeping in your own bed? and

4. Why gloat that you will do it for so much cheaper? I would have thought the better negotiating tactic would be to ask QF pilots (since most of you would know some and you appear to accept that their pay is higher) what their package is worth, and then undercut by say 5%, thereby STILL guaranteeing yourselves the jobs? THAT is what mystifies me, but hey, you've all got mortgages too.

Fly safe. I hope that, in time, we can all have reasonable access to ALL all jobs, and a chance ot take responsibility for & ownership of ALL the success and progression in the 'QF GROUP'. I hope that access will entail conditions for ALL pilots commensurate with a world-class airline, because we are all pilots who uphold the finest traditions of the Qantas 'brand' that management love to spruik about.

I encourage all Jetstar pilots to 're-value' UPWARDS your value and contribution to the QF group. It will help everyone, certainly not just mainline pilots, and not just yourselves. Think about it.

Cheers.

[International Trader]

Cutest of the Borg.

Just as I thought.
When threatened QF types go for the "Y" list.
The one they used with Australian.
The one that gives them the control, sorry, a semblance of a career progression for F/Os and S/Os. No talk of QF Captain's careers being effected because they expect to be protected.

Ploy # 2 is: promise a few pieces of silver to those you consider to be beggars. Give them something to hope for as they go and face the lions while you sit on your f-t ar-es.

Call me a little man? Geezz!
You guys have no B-lls at all.

Only a one line integration is true unity.

Go ahead and keep them separate ,and the only semblance of a career you will have in Aust is the dust that settles when all is lost .
J* conditions will improve once they have expanded with enough aircraft to compete directly with QF, if required due industrial action.
They don't have to do a thing except go to work and do their job

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Dare I point it out. If the mainline head up the a$$ mentality hadnt been so prominent at the start of the Qantaslink days, this situation would not have ever developed.

The sad arrogance of a few with the "F#*k them " we are better than every one else ilk has made it alot more difficult for many good S/Os and F/Os.

Wun Wing Lo, Id be guessing youd be the poster boy for the non hard yards, ive never been in GA or the millitary crowd.

Ironically, if you take a step back ( and an anger management course) you could most likely see that this end result had been pre orgasnised by the powers to be. "Instant Division. Just add attitudes, misconceptions and intollerance".

DM

[International Trader]

Hit the nail on the head

[Vorsicht]

Once again you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of your position.

I am not gloating about anything, i am telling you the reality of aviation outside of the sheltered workshop that you have grown up with.

I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last. The reason i know this, is because i know what your competitors are doing. I am one of them.

Yes, your 737 and 767 guys do work hard, and you can expect that everyone in mainline will work that hard one day if they hope to retain their salaries. You should ask yourself why they are working hard. You probably don't remember, but before the dispute Qantas was only an international airline.

You can't escape the implication that if Qantas had supported (or never split from) the other union then you wouldn't be facing this situation yet. I say yet, because it is inevitiable.

I think you are absolutely right about how J* pilots should have been recruited, but you guys just rolled over, and now the cat is out of the bag.

I can assure you that you are inefficient. I have many QF mates who have regaled me with their stories of how they have travelled backwards and forwards between London and Singapore or Bangkok on the double shuttle as S/O's in first class.

That says it all. Either way it is bad. If the union insists on First Class travel for S/O's then the problem is self explanatory. If on the other hand it is a space available issue, then that is equally concerning if you consistently have spare First Class seats available.

Tell everyone about the Pacific Barons and their overtime and conclude that's efficient. I'm sure that you will come up with some formula to prove it is saving the company money, but the reality is that a pilots in my airline wont get a cent extra for doing those routes. That means they can sell tickets at cheaper prices.

How many of your long haul drivers are doing in excess of 90 stick hrs a month. Hundreds of the guys in my airline are, month after month. Do you still think your long haul guys are efficient. You may be right that a lot of the inefficiency comes from the schedule. But it is still inefficient, and makes it difficult to compete.

It is market forces my friend. Hopefully what appears to be a severe shortage of experienced pilots will manifest itself in higher salaries for everyone, and you guys will be able to maintain or even improve your conditions. But my money is on the airlines dumbing down the cockpit such that they will be able to recruit any idiot to do our job, for half the salary of a J* driver.

It seems that Bob Hawke may have been a visionary when he called us "glorified bus drivers". But i have to say, after 25 years in this industry, I think he was right.

[The_Equaliser]

Vorsicht. You do not know of what you speak. QF SO's pax on extremely rare occasions internationally, and do not pax at all on double shuttles, fact checking required methinks. Second, what crew compliment do you run in your airline for ULH? 2 CAPT, 2 FO or CAPT, 2 FO, 1 SO or CAPT, FO, 2 SO. Lets have some facts to balance this debate, then the truth of your statements can be tested.

[Vorsicht]

Certainly stand to be corrected. I am only repeating what i have been told by Qantas pilots. Just goes to show they may be somewhat prone to exageration.

Up to 1 hours duty (duty being 1 hr before STD to chocks on, i.e 11hrs stick) we have two pilots with some minor variations for number of sectors and time of flight. Over that we have 2 Capt 1F/O. On some flights i believe we have 2 capt and 2 f/o, but that is only because the second crew operate a shuttle the next day.

I don't operate ULH so the above may some small errors but basically correct.

[Wun Wing Lo]

Vorsicht again you seem to take everything so personally... from one post you instantly know what i think and what my background is.... what is amusing is how wrong you actually are.

However wether i am cadet, military or ga is unimportant. I love how people tend think these things are important when they can't think of anything to counter reasoned argument.

Airlines have operated for years paying these salaries. Like most things what is happening in the airline industry is happening in the general population.. Comapanies are looking to raise profits and for most CEO's the instant solution is to cut costs.

Look at the current industrial relations laws.

What are you claiming that all or most pilots who work for QF are lazy inefficient and elitist. You seem to know what the attitude is of the average QF pilot. This sort of stereotype is nothing short of usual crap piled on any group.


Dont you worry if you were ever involved an industrial dispute the public would not be seeing you as the little aussie battler. But an overpaid glorified bus driver, as they would us.

And you seem to be so knowledgable on the skill level of the QF drivers and seem to imply that i am not. How many QF guys have you flown with then?

As to my rather inflamatry remark on making the cut.... I am kind of amazed more people weren't set off by it... I guess most saw it for what it was ... ok a few may have crashed and burned in the interview .... but just becuase you didnt get in dont make you any better or worse that the guys who did get in... just not as competitive as those you were up against on that day when measured against what QF were looking for. Yes there is nepotism, cadets who think they know it all, air force guys who think they know it all, obnoxious GA guys etc. The point I was trying to make is that for whatever reason, a few of these guys who didnt get in are making it their mission to attack QF and its employees at every opportunity.

Oh and I love the cliche's your ilk like to post.... sheltered workshop? Sheltered from what and by whom? .... doing the "hard yards" ... the problem with that is there is always someone who has done it harder than you.. sounds like a good VB ad tho.... i mean the beer.... are you going to step aside when someone proves they did it harder.

One to One integration ... your dreamin' arent you.... i am just estimating here but on that proposal just about ever J* driver would end up in the top half or third of that list. And your giving others lectures about taking shortcuts and not doing the hard yards. How about all the Eastern guys go one for one through your seniority first... hey?

For all your crap about helping out the GA guy... how many proposals have you put forward to your management to hand your job over to someone in GA?

I think your confused .... are you an employee, a shareholder or the CEO? Why dont you live at home with mum and dad and work for free... then they could sell the tickets real cheap.... ah now i get it your really a passeneger.

Price elasticity is what determines how much is charged and competition. Simple excercise... have a look at any given day at the airlines respective sites and compare what tickets sell for. and who is sold out.

As for duty times i think it strange that someone who only hears second hand griping thinks they know all about long haul flying. You seem to think that working flat out day in and day out is efficient. I would call it dangerous. There is an added element of flying across large time zones and CAO 48 limits arent the only consideration. There is a project under way that is going to quantify it.

And before you get too smug it doesnt take much for dramatic change to occur in this industry... Look at the other LCC Australian... how is seniority going to go when you take them over?

But I guess all of this is a waste of time... becuase you know everything about everything and if you hear something you dont like you put your hands over your ears, close your eyes and stamp your feet chanting how awful QF is.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

IT, you seem to have little idea on how a Y list works. The reason I said it would be primarily for F/O's and S/O's is that no QF Captain in his right mind would bid for a Jetstar command at the current rates.

So instead of getting narky, why don't you use that fabulous brain of yours?

Am I right in saying that current Jetstar pilots may not even be the ones being considered for the new airline. Before you guys start gloating, perhaps you should get that one squared away first, lest you end up like the VB guys.

Why should GD give you guys the guernsey if he can find some Kiwis on the breadline or will do it for even less?! What industrial power do you have to even make him look your way?

Of course I could be whistling in the wind here and the deal could be all sown up. How much do you trust GD given his track record on these things?

[Vorsicht]

Interesting perspective isn't it.

Most everything you say about me, is pretty much what i think about you.

I wonder what that means.

[Keg]

How much do you trust GD given his track record on these things?

Dr Phil has a saying that goes along the lines of when he's cheated with you and left his wife, you'd be insane to think that he wouldn't do EXACTLY the same thing to you.

Some would call it poetic justice. I'd call it yet ANOTHER aviation industrial relations tragedy.

For the J* guys, I acknowledge now (as I did back then) that the gun was at your head when the A320 came along. If you didn't put forward a good case, your jobs were going- or at least to WA! That gun is NOT there now. You guys KNOW that you are crewing 24 A320s. For goodness sakes, at least realise the GREAT position you are in and if you're going to crew an aeroplane with double the number of seats, at least START with an ambit claim of double the money. You have NOTHING to lose.

Of course, you can take the sad and short sighted option that even a 10% pay rise from the A320 is more than what you are getting now and so why not take it! http://www.theaviationforum.com/phpbb/images/smiles/jerkit.gif

[Jetsbest]

As this is my first post on the subject I fail to see how I have 'again' demonstrated a lack of understanding. To respond to some of your points;

You may not have my contract (which, by the way, I've been under for less than 10 years), but I ask again why you appear to gloat that you can go SO much lower? You've been ripped off, apparently fairly willingly!

S/Os pax around at the whim of the company.. the cheapest way possible given the balance of pilots available, surplus seat capacity, CAO duty limits, schedules etc. It is NOT guaranteed first class (until >5 yrs service) but is upgradeable. S/Os I know don't bid routinely for paxing.. it's just scheduled that way and the company needs the crew to places. How else would you propose they get there?

When your company forces you to sit in slip port for three days for no credit other than the stick time it took to get there, then talk to me about inefficiencies. I agree that sitting around is inefficient, but your barb should be directed a QF for the schedules. How is it a pilot's fault? Or are you suggesting that you would happily do 4 sectors in 7 days but because it amounted to only 17 stick hours (yep, I've done it!) you'd sign-on again for days 8-9 for another 15 hours just to be able to call yourself efficient? In my current roster I have 22 days off out of 56. Not bad you say? I also have something like 28 nights out of my own bed. Again, not bad you say? But it adds to the equation that even a jetstar pilot flying international WILL NOT be able to fly 90hrs/month. Are you going to 'efficiency' yourself out af a life for a salary which is unlikey to fairly compensate you AND illogically and naiively undercut some long-established work practices.

Don't get me wrong. There is room for improvement to QF pilot work practices. The pilots, both as individuals and AIPA, have participated in some good ideas and real gains with the company. BUT, in my view, apparently sensible proposals have often been bogged in the company bureacracy as much as pilot reticence.

In the overtime discussion we find common ground of sorts. It cuts in on very long single-duty periods. It also cuts in for 'heavy' roster period cumulative duty, much like what I believe happens in Jetstar. It was implemented for a reason many years ago, and variations have been negotiated since, but I agree it's not a perfect system. The bottom line is that 'if you don't do the duty, you don't get the overtime'. So when you start doing 30 stick hours (confirm you know you have the gig?) in two sectors in 3.5 days with 3/4 night, dubious onboard rest, no overtime and an 'inefficient' slip, have a little heart eh? I trust you'll be glad you revoked with pride some benchmark (historically considered fair & reasonable?) conditions, in the name of selling tickets cheaper, while you age faster and feel like C#@P for your 24 hours home before you do it all again. The company may thank you at your early retirement, but I doubt it.

Finally, you say 'I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last'. You're right there, especially if you keep selling yourself SO short. I agree that 'convergence' is a very likely outcome, so let's aim for QF-5% rather than gloat over QF-50%. PLEASE? I'm not trying to steal your job, but I'd like ALL QF-group pilots to have a practical access to ALL QF-group flying. It would really help 'engagement' (QF's word, not mine) and company success. I don't know yet how to achieve it, but wouldn't Jetstar pilots enjoy the (eventaul) choice of a mainline job?

Obvouisly we'll have to agree to disagree on many things. I still don't believe you need to cut yourself (or others) so deeply and cheaply. Good luck with it all.

[Mr. Boeing]

I believe that Qantas Long Haul crews are some of the cheapest around, the main reason that they only have one captain, one first officer and one or two second officers. I also know for a fact that quite a few of the second officer's on the 744 have been getting up to 900 hours on their 365 day limit without bidding for any extra flying. That's pretty efficient.

[Chief Chook]

I believe that Qantas Long Haul crews are some of the cheapest around, the main reason that they only have one captain, one first officer and one or two second officers.
Couldn't that also mean they're amongst the most expen$ive?
If other airlines are crewing with 2 captains, and/or 2 first officers, then those combinations must be the same, or cheaper, than the qantas configuration.

I also know for a fact that quite a few of the second officer's on the 744 have been getting up to 900 hours on their 365 day limit without bidding for any extra flying. That's pretty efficient.It's "pretty efficient" SCHEDULING by the roster clerks - NOTHING to do with pilot efficiency.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Hey Gonzo Chief Chook. I can't comment on costs as I don't know what they are but I guess if your employer doesn't have to pay income tax, I suppose that makes the opposition crew pretty cheap. It's also got everything to do with pilot efficiency from what I can see you goose. If they're flying maximum hours, why doesn't that have anything to do with pilot efficiency? Arrr, please explain??

[Chief Chook]

why doesn't that have anything to do with pilot efficiency?For the simple reason that pilot "efficiency" cannot be measured by the number of hours a pilot flies in a week, month, or year - that is SOLELY a function of the crew scheduler - unless pilots are responsible for building their own rosters!
Because pilot X is rostered for, and flies, double the number of hours for which pilot Y is rostered, and flies, does that make pilot X a more "efficient" pilot?
It simply means that the SCHEDULING of pilot X has been more efficient for him, than for pilot Y.
Further, I could theoretically schedule pilot X and pilot Y for exactly the SAME schedules over a 12 month period, and have one (or the other) exceed his peer's flight time by 10 or 15%, so that one reaches maximum permissible hours and the other doesn't.
Are you still going to tell me that he who maxed out was "more efficent" than he who didn't?

Put your abuse back where you can control it, and argue realistically.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg you're usually the voice of reason amongst the drivel but this time I think a few facts are in order.

A 744 captain is flying probably 3+ times the seats of the baby bus and getting WAY LESS than double that of a Jet* captain....closer to 30% more. Yes I have good friends filling both seats....jet* crews demanding double the money for the 330 is just plane dumb.

For those of you whinging about the relative value of longhaul pilots and how someone is doing 900/yr long haul while someone else is only doing 600...and therefore 30% less efficient or comparing long haul to multi sector days of shorthaul...grow up you have no freaking idea of what you speak.

900 hrs a year of longhaul with min rest turn arounds...like a few mates of mine are doing at EK...is SHATTERING! FTLs are limits not targets, that's why it's not FTTs....but if you want to trust yourself to someone who maybe in no fit condition to be at the controls next time you go on holidays and base your travel purely on the cheapest ticket be my guest.

Only a newbie or a complete moron places no price on health, home life and job satisfaction in his employment or employees....given GD's age I guess he, and most CEOs and beancounters, fall in the latter category...they understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The QF pilot group, the Jetstar pilot group and the VB pilot group and on infinitum are inseperable...each group has it's share of the broad spectrum of abilities and personalities...one group though...even the good guys there...deep down inside think they're better than all the rest....when you have it thoroughly worked out in your brains that it is NOT so you may have a fighting chance of uniting for everyone's betterment...until then you all deserve the abject derision that GD no doubt treats you with.

You are fools....allowing yourself to be distracted from the important goals by GD and his team....GD must go nearly spastic with hysterical laughter when the subject of pilot unity comes up.

[Dropt McGutz]

I think that what you'll find Chief Chook, is that the second officers rosters are all within five hours or less of each other in a 56 day roster period. The company tries to balance it out and from what I have heard, Mr. Boeing is correct. The only second officers whose hours aren't "up there" are those that have been on type for twelve months or less. I have to agree with EBD. I can't figure your statement out "It's "pretty efficient" SCHEDULING by the roster clerks - NOTHING to do with pilot efficiency." either. If the pilots can only do 900 stick hours by law, and they are, how isn't that pilot efficeincy?As for crew costs, I fail to see how for example, Nigel, Jeremy, James and Barnaby, who consist of two captains and two first officers, flying for British Airways, could possibly be cheaper than a Qantas crew.

[Keg]

G'day Chimbu. You're correct about the pay rates (which in itself is an interesting point!). I guess I was a little careless with the numbers I was using when I mentioned 'double' and 'ambit'. What I am saying that for the J* guys, if you ARE going to under cut, don't go your cost base plus 10%, go for our cost base minus 10%.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Interesting aint it Keg.

It would seem to me a relatively small pay differential as compared aircraft pax carrying ability (revenue generating ability)

Even more so when you consider yield comparisons.

I wouldn't mind betting the profit margin, % wise, is not so different between mainline and Jetstar....and yet Jetstar helps retain market share within the Qantas group rather than losing it to VB...probably via a public perception trigger more than anthing else...i.e. if the unwashed masses THINK it's cheaper then that is near enough.

Would it be too long a bow to draw to suggest Jetstar may in fact be helping MAINTAIN jobs in LH fleet?

Little doubt, in my mind at least, that Jetstar will be used to increase productivity in domestic ops but that's not unreasonable when you consider that a ex TAA B737 captain on the post 89 contracts is on about the same as a B744 captain but has similar yeild producing ability as a Jetstar captain. Sad perhaps for the individuals affected but we are talking about contracts designed to end industrial action and get an airline back in the air.

The really difficult thing for some young pilots is aligning their expectations with reality....and that is not $250K for a B737 captain.

In the end it probably won't mean too much for the captains with these contract as they surely must be not THAT far off retiring.

The other point that seems lost on the vociferous few is that ALL Jetstar pilots recruited in the last year + have had to pass the normal full QF recruitment process...as do the Sunnies, Eastern boys and girls...they were just recruited for a different part of the QF Group...pure luck not a different standard.

Yes the senior guys did not but the company needed DE Check and Trainers...experience...and guys who would be there long term rather than seconding people from mainline. They got that and they got some pretty impressive people in the bargain...QF is VERY lucky to have the top people they have at Jetstar and THEY KNOW IT. It would be completely counterproductive to put these people through the QF recruitment process because it is designed to identify potential successfull cadets not experienced pilots in the 40-50 age bracket....a large % of mainline senior captains would fail it too and yet no-one would ever suggest they shouldn't be occupying the seats they do....except the usual small % of captains you wouldn't give a kite to fly and can never work out how they have slipped through the system:ok:

The pilots at Jetstar DO NOT sit around working out how to undercut the mainline guys...and I know some of the people who negotiated their (very good) contract.

So why don't you children learn to play together?

[Vorsicht]

There is a whole lot more to efficiency than the amount of hours flown.

It is the amount of deadhead sectors, the amount of nights in hotels, the amount of overtime paid etc.

From anecdotal evidence, i would suggest that QF L/H is a long way behind the 8 ball when it comes to roster efficiency compared to may of their competitors.

Additionally, as Chimbu says, some of you guys have your eye on the wrong ball. Your competitors are your enemy, not your fellow pilots.

You should be asking your management and the CASA why EK are allowed to fly through australia when they don't comply to the one day off in seven rule for instance. These are the areas where you are being screwed.

It appears to me that you are content that your agreement precludes you from having to work such arduous rosters, but as long as your competitors are allowed to, you are screwed. You may keep your conditions through some sort of industrial action, and win the battle. But if your airline has to compete with others who have a lower cost base, then you will eventually lose the war.

[Chimbu chuckles]

QF is behind the 8 ball competively for one other reason...Australia's geographic location and distance from everywhere...Oz is the end of the line...compared to Dubai which is currently and for a fair while yet a hub.

It is entirely likely that QF is incapable of the type of effeciencies that EK get from their crews...no fault of anyone at QF least of all the crews...not only are QF battling those sorts of issues but also competing with companies that would not be allowed their 'work practices' in a first world country...but that is an issue for CASA and their track record in this area is abismal.

None of this is a justification for the sort of behaviour we have come to expect from GOD.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Chimbu - Halleluja to your last couple of posts.

:ok:

[AnQrKa]

The lion’s share of this debate has been about money. Salary.

Salary is only a small part of the issue. Jetstar will provide efficiencies that AIPA will not allow mainline to have such as,

-Fewer crew per aircraft on long haul flights. Many of QF’s competitors operate 2 crew on sectors where QF operates 3 crew and some airlines operate 3 crew when QF are 4 crew.

-Crew bases for wide body aircraft in cities other than SYD. How many QF767 crew are overnighted in MEL? How many SO’s are based in Asia?

-The ability to recruit crew onto the Airbus without the knock on effect of training crew across all fleets as demanded by seniority.

-The ability of Jetstar to employ direct entry commands if required.

-Shorter nightstops and more efficient patterns.

-the removal of old fashioned rostering practices such as blank lines.

AIPA has been unwilling to come to the party on a lot of these issues for years and as a result will become totally marginalized. AIPA should start becoming a manager of change instead of continually being a victim of change.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Gee, you make it sound so great to be a Jetstar pilot.

Every single one of those "efficiencies" is going to either work the pilots into the ground or screw them for promotion.

All this and being paid less than the going rate to boot!

Try getting shorter nightstops and more efficient patterns out of a flight that goes to a destination once a day, if that.

PS, AIPA has nothing to do with not allowing a 767 base in Melbourne, it's purely a company decision.

[rescue 1]

Ok, I know that there has been a fair bit of discussion on the jetstar brand expanding internationally.

But - the way I understood the press release from Mr Dickson, this brand expansion is a separate entity to the existing jetstar! That is fresh terms and conditions! Or did I get that wrong?

[Pete Conrad]

Rescue, no you didn't get it wrong, in fact in high probability, the Jetstar international expansion MAY not even be crewed by existing Jetstar.

Borg, what do you expect, you are dealing with guys that have never known or had any better, every step up is something they never had, they never had a seniority system, never had good pay, always had to pay for their type rating and so if they can undercut and get the work, they aren't losing out in any way shape or form.

[oicur12]

Pete,

“Borg, what do you expect, you are dealing with guys that have never known or had any better, every step up is something they never had, they never had a seniority system, never had good pay, always had to pay for their type rating and so if they can undercut and get the work, they aren't losing out in any way shape or form.”

The pilots I know of and have worked with in the past that are now employed by Jetstar have worked for airlines such as Cathay, Ansett, Malaysian, Vietnam Airlines, Silkair, Dragonair, EVA and of course, Qantas. Some have been flying the A320 for over 15 years as training captains and even check captains. Most have worked with very strict seniority rules; most have enjoyed excellent income – indeed more than many QF pilots. Not one of the pilots I refer to has ever paid a cent for type training, although I am aware that this does occur.

It is a very slippery slope you are attempting to climb my friend, making experience comparisons between Qantas (a cadet airline) and Jetstar.

[cunninglinguist]

........and whose fault is that Pete ?



" 3+ times the seats "
.......they're packing 3 x 177 = 531 into a rat tailed Jumbo these days ?

[Pete Conrad]

Aaaah oicur12, thank you for reminding me, how could I have been so remiss????? Yes, lets not forget the militant 89 ers who cracked the ****s and left our shores only to come back and reverse their hard stand to crew Jetstar. Your talking exception rather than rule, we all know the core of Jetstar is Impulse and your slope is even slipprier if you think that Jetstar has an experience advantage over Qantas..Do you remember the days when Impulse was the airline you got into when you couldn't get into any other airline? Obviously not.

[HI'er]

The pilots I know of and have worked with in the past that are now employed by Jetstar have worked for airlines such as Cathay, Ansett, Malaysian, Vietnam Airlines, Silkair, Dragonair, EVA and of course, Qantas. Some have been flying the A320 for over 15 years as training captains and even check captains. Many non-Ansett pilots with Jet Star have noticed that the majority of the C & T section of that airline is populated by those who joined Ansett during an industrial dispute.
Nothing wrong with that, you say, however many MORE experienced people than those holding the check & training positions were "bypassed" in favour of their like-mindeds.

[Four Points]

Well my heart is bleeding for you bunch of sorry pathetic mainline A>H's. It is time you received a taste of your own medicine. The Karmer Gods have finally reacted and you will all receive justice. The way QF mainline A>H's have treated the regional Pilots since the Australian Airlines takeover has been disgracefull. Jetstar watch out you are not improving the QF regional airlines relations either. The Karmer Gods will strike you next. Change your recruitment requirements for in house recruitment, don't see the QF A>H's jumping through the same hoops as the regionals. Remember a dark and stormy day not so long ago when Mr Gerry McGowan was screwing you. Lucky QF was in the market for a cheap low cost carrier. How well did you all go in the QF Psychometric test? I would say most of you failed that is why you were working for McGowan in the first place.

[ur2]

Hi'er or whatever,
And who would have had uch more experience than some 15years a320 experience most of which as Training and Check Captains,
Most of those pilots have more than 8000hrs just on a320, and some have over 14,000 hrs on type.
What would you know tossa.

[HI'er]

I am only relaying what acquaintances in Jet Star have told me.
Bulk time on type doesn't guarantee quality or standard.

The abuse on this forum really is unique to here, isn' it.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Got to agree there Hi'er. I must say these sprays of vitriol carry a lot more creedence when you spell a word like "Karma" correctly.

Maybe I am just being a spelling A>H though.

(A is greater than H? Must be something cryptic that only the intelligentsia know about...)

[HANOI]

TCOB

Think you will find it's spelt " Credence ".

Sorry , couldn't resist.

[Vorsicht]

HI'er

Your comment is quite correct, but it also goes without saying that time in Qantas does not guarantee quality or standard either.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

...touche'...;)

[oicur12]

Pete,

“Your talking exception rather than rule, we all know the core of Jetstar is Impulse and your slope is even slipprier if you think that Jetstar has an experience advantage over Qantas..”

I must apologize; my comments were referring to the A320 fleet only. I do not know anybody flying the 717 but I have many former Ansett colleagues flying the Airbus. Maybe I am talking the exception and not the rule. But one thing is for sure, the crew operating the aircraft at Jetstar AND Qantas would be considered highly qualified by global standards. Having flown for various Asian carriers in addition to Ansett, I can assure you, an experience debate wrt Australia is not worth the screen it’s typed on. I regret getting sucked into it.

“Do you remember the days when Impulse was the airline you got into when you couldn't get into any other airline?”

Not really, but I remember when a lot of Impulse pilots subsequently moved on to airlines such as Qantas, Dragonair, Cathay and especially Ansett. They can’t have been that bad.

[togaroo]

Its good to see you are all taking a sensible and well thought out united approach to the prospective terms and conditions that will be offered by the company, eventually to all pilots! The inevitable is coming, just how will the united be divided up? And how difficult would it be to sell Jetstar International to Singapore?

[AnQrKa]

Cutest of Borg, I do not work for Jetstar – I am not trying to make it sound great to work for Jetstar.

The efficiencies I listed may or may not work the pilot into the ground – it is totally irrelevant. Dixon doesn’t give a toss how tired his pilots are. He doesn’t care a flying F@#$ if they are not promoted. What he is aiming for is to have his staffing costs and work practices more in line with other airlines in similar positions.

The nightstops I refer to are not in ports with daily service only although some of these could become a tad more efficient.

You and I both know that the company would have MEL based 767 crews in a flash if it were not for the obstructive tactics of AIPA.

And also borg, What do you think the going rate is and how do you come up with the numbers.

[Calligula]

Actually wanqar, I know for a fact that AIPA has suggested other bases for the B767 but has been told by QF that the cost savings in accom and allowances are offset by the need to position crews for training in Sydney.


Additionally, as the flying program on all fleets is so fluid and chageable that it is very difficult to work out aircrew resources in multiple basings (according to QF anyhow)

The A330 has two bases and this has resulted in massive inequities (read inefficient use of labour) in divisiors due to the need to try and spread the flying.

WANQRA or whatever your name is - I dont disagree there are efficiencies that could be unearthed from the contract with little pain from either side, but I think in this instance you are talking through your bottom.

[Oz Ocker]

the cost savings in accom and allowances are offset by the need to position crews for training in Sydney.How often do you blokes train?
Or do a lotta ya have problems comin up with the goods on the day, an 'avta go back regular for repeat sessions?
(Sounds like a cock'nbull story yer tryin' to spin us there Cal)


Be seein' youse round.

[The Pirate]

"Nothing wrong with that, you say, however many MORE experienced people than those holding the check & training positions were "bypassed" in favour of their like-mindeds."

HI'er, very true statement!

[AnQrKa]

Callig – As you said, the A330 has two bases and this has resulted in massive inequities – precisely why AIPA is against 767 crew being based in MEL.
What some smart airlines do is have crew OPERATE the aircraft to a base where training is undertaken and then maybe OPERATE the aircraft back home the next day or the day later.
Nice try but most of us have mates in QF that dont sugar coat the realities of living in a sheltered workshop.

[Calligula]

OK.

To clear this up once and for all.

I spoke to a senior AIPA COM member on this issue yesterday. He confirmed that AIPA has no objections to a melbourne base for the B767, indeed in the recent past AIPA has floated the idea to QAL and was told no.

In this cost environment, if there is one dollar to be saved QF would be doing it I can assure you

Additionally, he pointed out to me that even if there was objections QAL could open the base anyway because the CA allows them to do it.

Finally, there are a shed load of crew that commute from Mel. The base would be very popular and they would have no problem crewing it.

Your point on the A330 supports what I have been saying.

For whatever reasons QF is unable to balance the flying to achieve optimum utilisation of aircrew resources. This is not a function of the award but is linked to the route structure which is now predominately out of Sydney. That the flying progam for this aircraft has changed making the base unviable is neither the pilots nor AIPA's fault.

WANQA - You posts show little understanding of the CA or what goes on inside QAL. I have come to the conclusion you are a wind up merchant. Most likely another bitter and twisted ex Ansett clown who blames QF for the fact he is stuck o/s in some $hithole and is trying desperately to get back to Aust by running QF pilots down and looking to $cabb on us.

If you are going to bad mouth our work practices, next time pick something that is within our pervue to control.

[AnQrKa]

Calligula – this is the same AIPA that tells you QF pilots are the lowest paid 767 drivers in the world. Very accurate source of info huh.

I love the way you QF guys always dismiss commentary on your company or conditions as being a windup, or bitterness, or someone who wants to scab on you. Heres a news flash – not everybody wants to work for QF – me included. Take a look at my handle – people leave QF to come to the airline I work for, not the other way around you twit. Most ex AN guys that got into QF have either ditched your outfit or taken a posting in Jetstar. Ever wonder why.

[fromwayback]

You are all giving me a headache. Can't you all be friendly just a little bit friendly.

We are all lucky to fly in a safe profitable envirnoment. I know people in each airline mentioned and we don't work that hard nor for too little money really.

However, if you want great money, flexible hours, friendly customers (mostly) and the great outdoors (mostly), take up plumbing.