British London Airways

[Maddog Red]

I want to know how British Airways get away with calling themselves British on their longhaul product, when 99% of the Product operates from London, more like London Airways, I realise London and the South East is in Britain but come on the rest of the country is being sold short. Its still the same old problem in Britain all centred around London, I must remember no one else lives outside the South East just the other 43.6 million of the population of a total of 58.8 million across the UK as of the 2001 censors. Their new slogan should be we go everywhere in the world, just as long as you can get to London. This is what we want a good old rant about the good and bad points of the North and South. And they don’t do anything moist in Southern Chip shops, what is all that about.

[Oshkosh George]

Yes,indeed! Continental can justifiably claim to be the long haul airline of the regions of the UK(well,if you're going westwards,anyway!). Just flown them,and a good product.

[nickmanl]

I don't think BA is the only airline to do this in the world, look at Air France, how many long haul destinations from any city other than Paris? Look at Iberia, how many other than Madrid and a couple from Barcelona. Lufthansa also operates around 85% of its long haul from Frankfurt.

BA are making money doing it this way. They are no longer a state owned company so they have no obligation to provide to every region.

[Re-Heat]

They are a commercial company who will operate where it is profitable to do so - currently that is London for their cost structure and strong position in Heathrow, which has huge demand for slots and not enough supply. With resources tight, they are focused on where they make most money, which is not for them being able to base an aircraft away from the main operating base unfortunately.

They have no obligation whatsoever to serve any market in the UK; government's overruling commercial markets are much a think of the past - with any luck open skies with the US will remove all such tinkering.

[Gonzo]

And there was me thinking that BA flew from Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen etc to Heathrow, where there are these fancy new-fangled things called connections.....

[Oshkosh George]

Well,that's solved then. We'll take turn about next week,and get all the Londoners to fly where they want to go via Stornoway(or anywhere),and see if they like it!l :cool:

[Gonzo]

Belive me, I'm no supporter of BA, having to work with (against?) them every day. They are their own worst enemy.

However, taking into account runway length, which might have been forgotten here a bit, if BA decided that a route from Stornoway to Hong Kong was profitable...well, great, I've always wanted to see some of the Scottish isles!

It's simple supply and demand. Longhaul to/from the SE of England is where most of the demand is (both outbound and inbound), and there where most of the profit is. Complaining here won't change that, write to your MP and ask that a Hong Kong - Stornoway service should come under ther protected public service route so it will receive a government subsidy.

Is anyone really saying that if UAL and/or AAL went bust, and Continental had the opporutnity to swap to Heathrow, they wouldn't?

[Runway 31]

Why should people from the regions fly via London to get anywhere. Thank goodness other airlines have stepped into the breach left by the BA withdrawl and provided more direct routings than there have ever been

[Hotel Mode]

Why should BA operate flights out of the regions that dont make money? Its not state run anymore. The yields from the regions are absolutely dire. As for continental, well thay are just dumping capacity whilst the domestic market is down, should it ever pick up watch those services disappear.

[HZ123]

Tell the staff that most of them still think it is state run as they are confidant nothing can ever happen to them.

[Carnage Matey!]

They didn't like being docked a days pay did they? Perhaps they're learning now.

[heebeegb]

Can't believe i just read all that!

[Dozza2k]

erm............. no ones asking you to fly BA.

[bealine]

Continental can justifiably claim to be the long haul airline of the regions of the UK

......Only because of the lack of availability to open up any more London routes. If "Open Skies" goes ahead, the regional routes would disappear - pronto and CO would operate out of Heathrow! FACT!

[Scottie]

Hotel Mode said:

Why shuld BA operate flights out of the regions that dont make money? Its not state run anymore. The yields from the regions are absolutely dire. As for continental, well thay are just dumping capacity whilst the domestic market is down, should it ever pick up watch those services disappear. and bealine said the same thing...

Think you'll find a lot of the regional services that CO provide are doing exceptionally well. Here at EDI the CO flight has gone from one 757 a day to two. Next year it is being upped to a 767 for one of those flights.

True the American carriers are dumping capacity from their domestic market but just as in Europe there is not much future for legacy carriers on shorthaul.

FACT: the market in the regions has been built up, customers like it and the fares aren't cheap. Average CO fare to EWR from EDI is around £450. Much more expensive than the cheapest ticket from the London airports but also much more convenient. People like it! They're willing to pay to avoid the inconveniance of routing via London. Emirates have started out of GLA, been so successful it's going up to a B777 and they're talking about starting an EDI A330 service.

This is a change in CO policy, can't see it changing since it's so successful. This is also what the dreamliner concept is based on. More smaller capacity aicraft flyig point to point rather than hub and spoke with all the delays that incurs.

I should say that the load factors on the CO's are almost always full.

[HZ123]

Do not dispair if WW can get the Unions to heel i.e. BALPA, BASSA, and the TGWU, then you may one day see longhaul routes from regional airports. At present chances for new BA regional are zilch.

[Carnage Matey!]

You do like to have a dig at BALPA like they're the source of BAs problems. Strange how Rod Eddington said he had no problems with BA pilots productivity or pay and Willie Walsh said much the same thing to the pilots the other night. I wonder who he was referring to when he spoke of work practices that have no place in our business?

(I'll give you a clue - T*WU, G*B, BA*SA. Fill in the blanks).

There'll be no BA long haul services from the regions because we are a hub and spoke airline, just like CO and EK. We don't have a hub to feed into the USA like CO which is why they make money and we don't. The high yield point to point traffic on these routes is tiny. Over 70% of passengers on EK don't stay in Dubai but transfer onwards. EK is no different in concept from BA except you get on a big plane to Dubai then change onto a big plane to go to your destination rather than getting on a small plane to LHR then getting on a big plane to your destination. If size matters to you then so be it.

[ManchesterMan]

The catchment area of London is not enough on its
own to support the amount of BA short/medium/longhaul
flown from Heathrow.
Tourism and connecting account for a good percentage
on top of that and if you can 'funnel' from the regions
then all well and good.
The 'shuttles' operating for BA are very important to the
operation.
People vote with their feet and BA is not exactly 'under
pressure' at the moment.
Why as a private company would you operate out of the regions on long-haul if you can fill the planes from your home base!
The remnants of BA regional are a hang over from the days
of public ownership and as such are being run down very
slowly.
This is not a new idea - just look at all European majors
and their route networks.
BA- Heathrow/Gatwick Lufthansa- Frankfurt
Air France Charlesde/Orly Swiss-Zurich KLM-Amsterdam
Iberia-Madrid Alitalia-Rome.
The fact is that most foreigners want to fly to London and
good luck to them!

MM

[flyer55]

Hotel Mode - Actually BA used to do WW flying from Scotland GLA-JFK, operated by GLA crew on 757 which was shown on Scottish Passport (tv program) a couple of years ago.

Currently scottish executive are trying to get more international and continental flights flying into and out of Scotland rather than flying from London or Manchester!

[pwalhx]

I am led to believe that the Manchester to New York service is quite profitable, it is quite possible that other point to point services could be equally profitable, given a chance.

[Hotel Mode]

I'm well aware of where BA used to fly to. we also used to go to Auckland, Honolulu, seoul etc ect. The fact is they heamoraged cash so we dont do it any more. The fact is the full fare Y and J and F traffic is to London or is prepared to travel for the better J and F service that the LGW/LHR flights offer.

Whilst CO etc can effectivly offer service to the entire US via EWR/JFK BA cant, so we do it via london. The fact is that most of CO's pax will connect onwards to LAX/MIA/DFW/ATL/SFO/SEA so you still have to change planes.

[kala87]

BA is a commercial organisation, so the motivating factor has to be profitability, which in the airline business means yield as well as load factor. Therefore, LHR has to be the hub of their long-haul operations. That's why many of their long-haul flights that once operated out of LGW have been moved back to LHR. Just a 30-mile move round the M25 results in higher yields, because LHR is perceived more as a "business" airport then LGW (despite the awfulness of much of the infrastructure at LHR).

So, until the likes of Manchester and Glasgow can generate more higher-yielding business class traffic, BA will continue to avoid long-haul operations from those airports.

But does it really matter? If I was choosing a flight from Manchester or Glasgow to a Far Eastern destination, I would be very happy to choose a direct Emirates flight and enjoy their quality service, rather than connect via grotty LHR on BA flights.

[WHBM]

BA have had many, many attempts at running services from provincial points over the years, and it seems that not one group of them has made a any decent profit.

The proportion of high-yield C/F traffic is well below what you get out of London.

The proportion of inward traffic is also way below what is going to London.

Connecting traffic at the provincial point is miniscule.

So if there is money to invest, do so at your Heathrow hub.

This is the experience in other countries as well. It's not rocket science. Notice how all those other airlines being exampled here (Continental, Emirates, etc) are about operations out of their own principal hubs as well.

[pwalhx]

Whilst I agree in principle regarding hubbing, there are still opportunities for point to point from the regions i.e.

Manchester to New York - BA
Manchester to Las Vegas - BD
Manchester to orlando -VS

and to some degree the PK services to ISB, LHE and KHI

[bealine]

I am led to believe that the Manchester to New York service is quite profitable

....Ah! But does anyone really know for certain??? All airlines play their cards very close to their chests concerning finances!

[Oshkosh George]

I don't believe they would accept continuous losses,do you?

Stranger things occur however. Some things are political,and there are a few cans of worms in that environment!