Handguns for survival purposes in the Canadian bush. Any comments?

[cptpinpin]

In Canada, to legally own a Riffle or shotgun, you must take a course in handling and security and pass exams (CCSMAF). For handguns you take an additional course that allows you to apply for permission to acquire and own a revolver (Restricted or prohibited Fire arm). Then you go out to your favorite gunsmith and purchase your handgun, register as a member of a nearby gun club, wait two weeks to process your purchase before you can actually possess your weapon. Then before you can leave your gunsmith's store with your gun, you must have two permits from your local (provincial) Fire arms controller that allows you to transport it to your home. This permit is valid one time only for that day. The other permit is good for one year and is to allow you to travel with your handgun from your home directly to your gun club and directly back to your home using the most direct route possible.

After having gone through all of these steps, you will find that the reason for which you originally purchased the damn thing (Carry in the helicopter for Survival in the Bush)
is impossible to do legally.
The Canadian authorities will not issue handgun permits for survival purposes. (they have been evaluating the need for this for over two years and still can't come up with any conclusions to this time)

I am fighting this issue at the present time.

Any comments?

cptpinpin

[SASless]

Go with an over-under rifle shotgun/rifle combo if you are after meat for the pot.....or a long magazine 10 or 12 gauge pump shotgun if you are thinking protection from bears. You can carry some bird shot rounds and still gather small game and birds with the 12 gauge....get one with a 3" or bigger chamber for magnum rounds for the bears....smaller loads for birds/wabbits.

The only advantage to a pistol is they are light...easy to carry....but nearly useless for true survival uses outside an alley fight.

[B Sousa]

As to Canada and handguns......Forget it. Only the criminals carry Handguns there.

but nearly useless for true survival uses outside an alley fight.
Sasless. When in Alaska I carried my nice S/W 649 (44Mag)with some good hot loads. S/W has also come out with a 50cal Hand hurter.
But I prefer the Winchester Trapper in 44 Mag. Short, easy to get in the aircraft. And Canada will allow it. If you can find one of the older Ruger Carbines in 44 Mag, also good. Its very hard on Wabbits though.
Suggestion above as to over under is not a bad idea. something like Savage produces.

[SASless]

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/images/all/savpicm24f.jpg


[http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/870marinemag.jpg :ok:

[BigMike]

The Marlin Model 444 would be a good choice. Not too big or too long to carry in the cockpit.
Should have no problems with it on all but the largest rabbits.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/444.jpg

[KENNYR]

I might be wrong but I seem to remember something about trappers being allowed to carry sidearms in a holster on the hip.
I agree that a weapon should be carried to facilitate survival in Northern Canada.

[B Sousa]

Kenny as in many U.S. States its not that anyone wants you to survive. They want you to be unarmed...........

[bb in ca]

Hey cptpinpin,

I went through the same stuff as you've described right upto applying for the carry permit because I changed jobs and I don't think I would get a permit to carry while flying an ambulance ship. The carry permit was for predatorial animal protection and was issued provincially as I understood it. For me that wouldn't work to well as I used to spend time every week in two provinces and two terriotries.

When I do pick-up the odd bush contract a couple times a year i carry a defender shotgun. It's not as conveninent as a handgun for packing around but with the pistol grip it's not too much of a burden. With 2 3/4" hollow point slugs it should stop black, grizzly and polar bears with one of the 8 or so in the magazine. Haven't used it yet but had a forester save my ass with one a few years back when a hungry black bear found us.

https://tp-commerce.techpro.com/wrbss/images/products%5CSWC-31%20web.jpg

Hey KennyR,

It's not just northern canada that has bears it's practically all of Canada. Bears aren't always a problem here either it's just better to be prepared than not. Bear bangers and bear spray are legal to carry and will work in many many situations but not all.

bb

[alouette]

Maybe one should consider to enforce the law in aviation with these guns somewhere in Southern Europe...that might help to prevent some folks to accept bribes especially when tenders are on the line:E

[BigMike]

Winchester model 94 lever-action in .450 Marlin calibre. Another great little rifle. More than enough for even the largest rabbits.


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/Win94.jpg

[George Semel]

Well, when its all said and done, a good .22 cal. Rifle is the way to go. Both the rifle and ammo is light and don't take up much space. My choice would be either a pump action 22 or a Browning Auto 22. I like the browning since they break down. There are some pump action 22 that also break down as well. Either way you want some thing that is light and don't take up much room.

[Dave_Jackson]

Why not pack a couple of pounds of ground round.

This will divert the bear's attention while you run like ****. :D


Alternatives; http://ad-rag.com/124.php

[B Sousa]

George
You have to be kidding. A 22...........You try that on even a small bear and hes first going to break it over your head, then he will stuff the remainder where the sun dont shine...........

Maybe for waskily wabbits.........But..............I think this will answer your 22, 38, BB shot questions.

http://www.mountainsurvival.com/news_articles/bearattack.html


Dave................... ROTFLMAO

[cptpinpin]

Thanks for the comments guys.

To answer KENNYR's questioning on trappers being
allowed to pack a handguns, the answer is yes and this is somewhat recent.

A lot of people that work most of the year up in northern Canada wether they are are surveyors, drillers and pilots have had real close encounters with bears, all are being refused the right to include a revolver as part of there survival equipment.
I think that people should have right to chose what weapon suits them most for there convenience.

Revolver in a BH206 or AS350 cockpit is a hell of a lot more discreet from passengers eyes than a shotgun

Thanks to B Sousa for the link, Thats one big Mother!

[gadgetguru]

When you abolutely positively have to kill it first time, or with the rest of the mag....

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/hk_51a3.jpg
HK51K - 7.62x51 NATO (.308 Win) - my personal favourite,
7.62 only requires 108fps of energy to kill.
or it's little brother

http://www.law-17.com/images/copyof_3.gif
HK53K - 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Rem)

Capitalises on HK's roller-locking mechanism, compact firearm, without losing the stability of a stock, & the hitting power simply not available to most pistola rounds.

This weapon is small enought to fit in the cockpit, & more importantly to tote when out of it, no point going to all the trouble of getting the permission to carry , if when you encounter the situation where you need it, you've left it in the cockpit because you were too lazy to take it out before going for a whizz in the scrub.

Penetration enough to cut a hole through a brick wall.

A slight modification of standard rounds , or purchase the more expensive nylon tip rounds, (these will open up the back of anything you hit) increase lethality, whilst losing some accuracy, but at the ranges we are porbalby talikng this is neglible.

The 51K was/is the weapon of choice by some of my previous colleagues who have gone on to better things, but more recent advances have seen some of them move on to new technologies, some however have remained loyal to the (tried & proven) above.

however whilst your gunlaws probably bite the big one almost as much as ours...this was my baby before little johnny & his team of hairy-lesbian-do-gooders took her away from me. (alas; now only criminals have guns)

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/shotgun/img/mossberg_590.gif
Mossberg 590, 8 in the tube, 4 in the (compoiste) stock recess, heat shroud for when things get real busy, even a bayonet lug should things get very desperate (mil spec'd shotty, personally never did need it though).:ok:

[SASless]

I had a Mossberg one time....bought it in Anchorage after stashing my .44Mag S&W upon seeing what a real Brown Bear looked like up close. Loaded the Mossberg up....racked a round almost into the chamber....determined it would not feed. Returned it to the gunshop for a refund...then bought the Remington 870, 20 inch barrel....extended magazine. Never looked back since.

[B Sousa]

Gadgetguru again come through with all the neat toys. Problem is in Canada you would go to jail for anything that even whispered H/K.
Remember they are a non violent country, therefore no need for guns.
Seems to be some serious persoanl preference between shotguins and handguns. Sasless of all people I would have thought would like the S/W 44 mag. Certainly its for close kill but tramping around the bushes is where you get into range within a few steps.
I also just like that round. 44 Mag can do some real work. There are other good ones, 454 Casul, 50 etc. I carried the Winchester Trapper (take a look http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=003C&cattype=534094 ) or when I couldnt I carried the S/W. It allowed me to keep the same ammo.

Thanks to B Sousa for the link, Thats one big Mother!
Also note that George must be smoking the wrong thing tonight as no 22 would have done that. In fact the guy that he ate hit him a bunch with his 38..........before the bear ate that also

[SASless]

Bert,

Will be buying a Marline 1895 Guide rifle in .45/70 for Elk hunting this year....which will complement my Ruger Bolt M-77 in .338 Winchester Magnum.

For Grizzly Bears....my thoughts were simple....one loads some buckshot rounds then some slugs...then some more buckshot in the 12 Gauge Magnum. That way you can peel off his nose...put out his eyes....knock out his teeth...skin his ears....with the buckshot....if you do not kill him with the slugs. I reckon that way...if he can not see you ...smell you...or hear you....and can only gum you....you might have a chance of survival. That and with the way my knees and hands will be shaking.....I would not hit squat with the hand gun anyway....but have a good chance with the shotgun and buckshot.:uhoh:

[IHL]

The Canadian Gun registry is the most stupid piece of F%^& crap legislation ever put forward by a stupid F$%^ ridiculously incompetent politician. That stupid SOB Allan Stupid F%^&* Rock.

He has cost the Canadian taxpayer billions. The only thing is the criminals have forgot to register their guns. Just this past year, Toronto has averaged a shooting every other week; gun violence is on the rise. Thanks Rock you stupid F^&* B*&^%%$.


Humble apologies every time I think of gun control and what it has cost I get upset.

[rotorboy]

I have a Ruger Super Red Hawk 454 revolver, you can shoot the 45 long colt in the same wheel ( keeps it cheap for pllinking). I am in the process of getting rid of it and getting the new version the Ruger Alaskan they make it in the 454 and the 480, same gun but w/ 2.5 inch barrell, the ultimate protection gun. The Smith 500 ,single action 50 cal revolver is also popular in the bush.


SASless,
For a short rifle a 45/70 lever action guide gun with a short barrell is a great choice. Get the mercury recoil savers!

rb

[SASless]

Rotorboy....Elk season usually consists of a single shot....thus recoil is not a problem. (Sighting them in is where the pain occurs!) But then I have friends that love to shoot....I Tom Sawyer them into painting that fence for me.:E

[rotorboy]

Sasless.
sighting isnt a problem when you just got a new Swarovski 4x12x50 for the 300 Weatherby:ok:

RB

[remote hook]

I've been in the bush flying all around NWT, Yukon and Alaska for years - you're absolutly wasting your time with a handgun.

Buy yourself a nice Defender like the others have suggested, if you're really worried, get a .416, kill anything anywhere with one shot, not too good for grouse though...

As for the Gov't not issuing a handgun permit for survival purposes, well good for them. I personally take great issue with the whole registry program, but they've got that one right if you ask me.

RH

[paco]

I did my shotgun course in case I met any hungry bears, and that's more or less exactly what my instructor said.

Phil

[Texdoc]

SASLESS, you sure know how to make a grown man cry :{

"...then bought the Remington 870, 20 inch barrel....extended magazine. Never looked back since."

I had the excact same rig before Australia did what Canada is doing... the boys out bush got most upset when I would put a solid in a Pig from 150m, first because they would laugh cause they thought I couldn't do it, and did... second because you'd lose a lot at the box (if you got anything at all) a clean kill, but messy none the less.

[gadgetguru]

I never had any problems with my Mossy, even when using custom splintex loads, but i did treat here like a lady, even when we were rolling in the mud.

for a more conservative alternative (than my beloved HK51K), there is always the (sommer-ockenfuss) shorty

http://www.sportingguns.com.au/images/WildernessRifle.jpg

These little babies are a treat to shoot, they have a wonderful balance & the point feel is really sweet, which can be handy for any instinctive shooting requirements/scenarios.

Magazine Standard 5-round capacity (magazines with 10 rd capacity are also available)
Total Length 820mm .
Weight 3.3 kg (according to caliber)
Calibers - take your pick; 22-250; .243 Win; .270 Win; 7mm Rem. Mag; .308 Win; 30 - 06; .300 Win Mag; .338 Win Mag; .375 H & H Mag; .416 Rem. Mag; .338 Lapua Mag.
(additional calibers upon request).

a full power hunting rifle with a high speed repeater action (no it's not a semi-auto), without the bulk or length of a conventional hunting rifle

[BigMike]

Having looked at the bear in the above thread, I think the following may be in order. Not all of which would be entirely practical in the cockpit...

Belt-fed version of the HK 51

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/2040_hk_51b.jpg

An old favourite which should handle most things, but fairly expensive to run, and...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/apr1106.jpg

The .700 Nitro-Express. Will take down anything, period.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/700ner.jpg


You may want to check with local authoritys as some of these firearms may have some restrictions in your area.

[remote hook]

That last post made me laugh my ass off! What a way to start the morning.

Thanks for that one!

RH:ok:

[ayaarr]

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/komori/ugoku/f1/trex0s.gif

[OFBSLF]

In areas populated by brown bears, I recommend both a long gun and a handgun. Even the most powerful handguns are pitifully weak against a 14' brown bear. But more than one hunter has been attacked so quickly in the brush that he could not bring his long gun to bear (sorry) before the critter was on him. At that point, a handgun in a hip holster would have been better than beating on the brownie with his fists. As for the choice of handgun, most people consider .44 Mag to be the minimum. Be sure you have full power loads, designed for bear. There are a lot of wimpy .44 Mag factory loads.

As for the long guns mentioned, I certainly agree with the recommendations for a 12 guage pump or a trapper lever action in 45-70 or similar. If you carry a lever action, make sure you are carrying appropriate (solids) high-powered ammunition. Many 45-70 commercial loadings are weak so that they won't blow up an older gun. I also recommend that you have ghost-ring sights installed on the rifle -- I find them faster to acquire than standard open sights. Don't bother with a scope.

I'm not a fan of a stockless, pistol gripped 12 guage. Try shooting one sometime. First, they hurt, which means you won't practice. Second, they're awfully hard to hit anything with if it's more than 10' away. If a brownie is charging you, missing is a bad option.

As for a 5.56 Nato poodle shooter, no thanks. Not enough penetration against a brownie. I'd consider 7.62 Nato to be somewhat marginal against a brown bear, but a much better alternative than 5.56 Nato. However, as has already been mentioned, I believe Canada frowns upon "ugly" rifles, so either of these alternatives may be academic. Here in the People's Repulik of Massachusetts, we have our own foolish firearms regulations as well, so you have my sympathies.

[cptpinpin]

Hey Guys

I'm really impressed with the response I'm getting but I'm not flying in Iraq.
I'm not worried about Al queda, just Bears in general.
Big Mike has some really neat toys, but here in Canada I'd be considered a hardened terrorist if I ever got caught with one of these.

We seem to be slipping somewhat from the original question witch is "what do you think about Handguns for survival purposes in the Canadian bush" Should it be legal or not?

Between a 22 cal. riffle and a HK51K lead churner
there must be room for a handgun somewhere in there... yes?

In My mind, the best solution, to me, is Packing a handgun. It is very discrete and in the case of a 44 magnum with a six inch barrel or something of that nature is very deadly for anything on four legs.

Last summer a bear got in to my AS350 while I was having a sh... a couple of hundred feet away.
My 3030 Winchester was in a cargo cheek, not much use for me there, so I scared him off shooting my 44mag that I was packing (Thank God for that)
The only damage that he did to the machine while trying to flee is to a door that he bashed to pieces. He could of caused a lot more damage and left me grounded (Stranded) miles from civilization if I hadn't managed to scare him off.

I also don't particularly get off on the idea that passenger or crew have knowledge of a firearm in my chopper (they often get stolen). In the bush after a few good belts of Jack Daniel's, someone might have a flash of "Hey I know where there's a riffle in one of the machines, lets go shoot it off" or something.

What says you

http://helistation.ca/PICT0332.jpg

[Dave_Jackson]

Cptpinpin,

Have you considered a "Chicken gun"? I think that Nick is talking about it on the current thread [tail rotor construction].

An advantage of the Chicken gun is that if the bear is really, really big, you can use
British ammunition (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blthaw.htm).

[vaqueroaero]

How about one of these?

http://uk.geocities.com/jdtick1/s-58_009__3_.jpg

Go ahead! Make my day.

[B Sousa]

Last summer a bear got in to my AS350 while I was having a sh... a couple of hundred feet away.

Old Alaskan Helicopter trick for the competition.. Leave a dozen doughnuts in the OTHER guys helicopter........I have heard of Bears actually going over the front seat of a 500. Try that one without breaking the aircraft to pieces.....

[Freewheel]

Cptpinpin,

If you didn't learn the lesson from your AS350 incident, I never tire of telling the story of the biggest deer I ever shot, and the fact I had my trousers around my ankles at the time.

The lesson is, when in deer (bear) country, never be more than arms length from your rifle, which is loaded as soon as you depart camp (helicopter).

And as for bears, when in brown or grizzly country, I never leave home without my CZ550 safari in .416 Rigby. I find Woodleigh 410gr projectiles most effective, but you have to stoke them up to get good accuracy.

Mind you I shoot rabbits with a .375 H&H & 220gr speers.....

[cptpinpin]

I love the Chicken gun Idea
shoot the damn thing as far away as possible from the chopper,
let the bear chase it, run up to the helo
after pulling up your pants,
find the riffle, load it and shoot the chicken.
Did I get that right?

Hear any good chicken jokes lately?

By the way can anybody tell me how to insert photos in this forum.
It might also help vaqueroaero, he seems to have the same problem
as I of showing us his thing.http://helistation.ca/PICT0332.JPG

[Darth Nigel]

Back a page or so, someone posted a "defender " shotgun
https://tp-commerce.techpro.com/wrbss/images/products%5CSWC-31%20web.jpg

Now maybe it is because I am a limp-wristed Brit and not a manly lumberjack/ex-marine/whatever, but what's it like firing a shotgun without a shoulder stock? Strikes me it would tend to give a very erratic grouping?

Me Granddad once let me shoot an antique (even then) 8-gauge shotgun loaded with birdshot. I still walk slightly turned to the right :ok:

[gadgetguru]

Firing a 12 guage one handed with/without a stock is quite achievable even without a pistol grip, just make sure you have grasped the stock appropriately - the recoil is obviously quite significant. The pistol-gripped variants are far more suitable for this more of operation (it's what they're designed for), and therebya lot less strain for the limper-wristed. ;) (why they'd be using a shotgun is beyond me, try a feather duster)

Held at arms length,arm fully extended much like a pistol (& we're back to shotguns now ladies) usually affording the best results, the most common err I saw by most when using a pistol gripped variant (usually without a folding stock) is to attempt to site along the top of the barrel, & in doing so bring the rear of the receiver into facial proximity with the inevitable result, but dentists love them. :}

only the sort of thing one attempts when using shot other than solids, as you tend to be more intent of actually hitting the intended target, and usually at a greater range than those encountered in CQB conditions :E

... I miss my 'lady' :{

[ems300]

maybe you should try the benelli shotgun, with a pistol grip stock and what they call the street sweeper in south africa!! It is a round mag that holds 25 shots!!! You might find it a bit hard to get into the country though, as most goverments don't like the sound off them!!
They are truly great fun to have a crack with and i know why they got there name from. The cops in south africa used them full off rubber bullets to dispearse crowds!!
They didn't aim, they just let rip and kept pulling the trigger as fast as possible!!!:ok:
This would be great with buckshot and then slugs alternatively to get the desired affect!!:E

[gadgetguru]

mmmm... rubber bullets - that'll piss the bears off some. :ok:

[ems300]

Thats what they where designed for in SA, You could try the rubber bullets v the bear, but i don't fancy your chances!! or you could put buckshot and then slugs in and then have a go at it!!:hmm:

[rotorboy]

I am a little confused. I just did a couple of day job on the BC coast and every one of the guys were packing. I had flown these guys before and remembered they all had 44's and 45's. We talked about the carry issue. They had to get the permit, then get a second permit and (class invloved0 and it also required range proficany with the gun fofr it to be carried. The firearm can not be concealed... and that it was no problem having the pistol in the bush. They had a guy in the compnay who was approved to do the range proficancy...

RB

[OFBSLF]

In My mind, the best solution, to me, is Packing a handgun. It is very discrete and in the case of a 44 magnum with a six inch barrel or something of that nature is very deadly for anything on four legs.I think you have an overly optimistic opinion of the effectiveness of a .44 magnum. As a firearms instructor with about 200 hours of training in the defensive use of firearms, I have a much different opinion. Handguns in general are very weak when used against people. People are much smaller, thinner skinned, and far less determined than an angry brown bear. You'd be surprised how far a deer can run after a 12 ga slug has destroyed its heart. There's a reason most hunters going after brown bear use something larger than a 300 WinMag.

Furthermore, pistols are much harder to shoot accurately than a long gun. A stockless shotgun makes it basically impossible to use the sights. You can shoot a stocked shotgun (whether straight stock or pistol-grip stock) much more accurately and much faster than a stockless shotgun -- I've done 5 rounds through an 870 on target in 2 seconds at a distance of 50'. As for semi-auto shotguns, in general they are less reliable than pump shotguns. Pump shotguns are far more likely to operate after abuse and neglect. Benelli shotguns have a fast cyclic rate, but also an overly complex set of controls matched with an easily damaged aluminum receiver. An 870 pump shotgun is half the cost and much more likely to work after being knocked about and ignored.

When a bear is charging you, you have to make accurate shots, the target area you have is actually pretty small, and you will have little time to make those shots. A 44 magnum is certainly better than a pointed stick. But it is no magic deathray. And if you don't have some good training and a fair amount of practice, you won't hit a darn thing with it. Firing a .44 magnum double-action, quickly and accurately is far easier said than done, particularly with full-power loads. Unless your name is Jerry Miculek.

[gadgetguru]

& all assuming you don't ****e yourself & drop the bloody weapon instead of engaging the target.

It's all well & good to tote the firearm, but when one finds oneself in the proximity of the beastie without the niceties of say a zoo fence....that will test ones intestinal fortitude, most high stress incidents I found myself in, my minds was still panicing when i realised that my body had already reacted & brought arms to bear, centre of the seen mass & I'd already begun to squeeze the trigger at the point where concious thought prevailed.

scary how the body reverts to survival of the organism, when ones mind is trying desperately to convince the rest of the baggage to flee with it.

For those of us who have been fortunate enough to have had some training, it just takes over & the drills become a thought reflex moreso than a motor skill.

best of luck with your selection & purchase, but consider how you might react when the real thing occurs

[BigMike]

And now for the FINAL say in Bear hunting devices... the AT-4

This is a great little device in 84mm Super Magnum calibre. Compact, only about 1m long, can be carried in most cockpits, effective on all Bears as well as other large predators.

Downside; Not all Firearms dealers stock it, no follow up shot (single-shot), not recomended for small game, and there may be some local restrictions on ownership in your area.


Picture: Local hunters practicing pre-hunting season for the big trip "up-North"

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/AT-4.jpg

[RONLY]

Well it's your butt up there but I have found that it is far easier to get forgiveness than permission and if some Jacka$$ wants to give you trouble after you have stopped a polar bear that has just eaten the tailboom off your helo and has designs on you for dessert screw them you at least will be around to fight another day. No court in Canada is going to waste time putting you away. Especially when the jury of your peers will be drawn from the local population where you shot the bear. So unless you shoot it in downtown Toronto act like the Boy Scouts "be prepared"

[cptpinpin]

[ No court in Canada is going to waste time putting you away]

Thats all fine and dandy but what if you get caught with your hand gun
for some reason or an other before you had a chance to use it to save your life
and debate this in court YOU ARE IN DEEP SH...
You get arrested, get a criminal record and you can't own a gun anymore.
That is why we have to do something about changing the hand gun laws and
prevent perfectly honest citizens from being condemned as criminals for
wanting to pack a gun for self protection / Survival in a risky working environment.

http://helistation.ca/PICT0326.jpg

[B Sousa]

The expression on that Bears face seems to say" Let me out and Im gonna eat your ass" Do hope it got released away from humans. I seem to have more sympathy for animals than I do for Morons. Time does that.
For sure Canada has some ridiculous gun laws. But so do a lot of places and various states in the U.S. We go from unlimited access to extremely restrictive and I think if you compare statistics in those states, very few would be changed because of the gun laws.
The picture above as that Missle/Rocket is launched appears to be one of the guys from the 25th Division "Tropic Lightning" heres hoping that someone got to meet Allah as a result.
Will cut this short as I have to go clean my M-4 and my CAR-15.

[vaqueroaero]

Ridiculous gun laws - try the UK. Thank God there are no bears there......

[BigMike]

This is an interesting read for those who want to know what will stop a big critter:

http://www.cabelas.com/information/cabelasfieldguides/BigGameBear/BestBoresForBigBears.html

[GeneralMelchet]

I think this should be sufficient.

There is a cut down version for those who dislike the bulk!!

http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

[B Sousa]

G.M.
That co-pilot is sweet..........Not many Helicopter Drivers can afford it.........

[OFBSLF]

You can get most of the functionality of that with a Guide Gun from Marlin:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigBore_levrAction/1895G.htm

Have gunsmith smooth up the action and add a ghost-ring sight. You should be able to do that for $600 or so.

I'm sure the Co-pilot is nice. But that is just silly money.