EI Unhappy Landings....help!

[prasina]

In the past year I have flown about 30 times on shorthaul flights within Europe on various airlines and aircraft types. The route I fly most frequently is LHR to DUB on Aer Lingus on an A320/A321. Unfortunately, it’s got to the point that I dread flying to DUB with EI. I’ve noticed that the final approach into DUB and LHR scares the life out of me. I find landing in DUB particularly bad.

I realise that pilots aim to land safely and this does not necessarily mean that a landing will be comfortable for passengers. But I’ve been flying to DUB for many years on different airlines and aircraft types and I notice a difference when I fly EI. More often than not, coming into land the aircraft rolls and lurches around. Touchdown seems to me to be quite late on the runway (I accept that I could be wrong here) and generally it’s a much MUCH harder landing than with other airlines. This is followed by very strong braking and reverse thrust. The odd time there’s an extra unnerving swerve straight after landing before taxiing off the runway.

DUB has 3 runways: a short runway to the north running east west, another to the south running east west and a cross runway running southeast northwest. The south runway, being the longer one, is the only one I ever seem to land on these days. I can’t recall the last time I landed on the cross runway and suspect it might be out of commission. This would perhaps explain the wobbly all-over-the-place fast landings. The unfortunate thing is that in Dublin the wind often seems to be coming from every direction at variable speeds.

I’m well used to turbulence and it doesn’t upset me at other stages of a flight….apart from a hair raising EI take-off from LHR a few months ago when severe turbulence lasted about 25mins and not even the cabin crew were out of their seats. But that’s another tale.

Approach into Heathrow is slightly better but often just as bad. Landing is always very hard with extreme braking. I fly on other airlines into Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton but I never have the same problem. And likewise landings at the other destination airports within Europe have all been fine.

I have asked other friends about this and they have noticed the same; lurching, yawing approach, hard smack down on the runway and extreme braking.

Weather and wind conditions? Training? Procedures? Aircraft type? What is the reason for this?

I would like to understand more about this and if anyone can shed any light I’d be most grateful because it’s got to the point where I’m finding it really difficult to fly. I simply dread it. I fly from time to time for work and I’d prefer not to now. This is sad because I’ve always loved flying and have been flying for 25 years. If I knew more about this it might be of some help. Otherwise I’ll have to avoid EI which would be a shame and cut flying down to a minimum.

[BRL]

FWIW, I used to fly regular with EI into Shannon (A320) and Heathrow and never had any 'memorable' landings or take offs with them, just the same as other airlines really.

[conor_mc]

I think runway 16 has been the active at Dublin for the last two days, due to a fairly strong southerly wind. It definitely hasn't been decommisioned anyway.

[prasina]

That made me laugh Future. I didn't see the connection myself when choosing a name. (how did you know that?)

Seriously though, I have flown EI many times over the years on and off. Started using them again in last couple of years which is when I noticed the difference. Flown 6 return flights EI in past year and most approaches and all landings have been yuck. That doesn't seem like coincidence to me. Sure, I've had some 'unpleasant' landings before on EI and other airlines down the years and just passed them off - you're not always going to have an ideal landing in terms of passenger comfort.

So I'll be switching from EI.....just as their fares are getting really cheap!

[Jetstream Rider]

You will probably find that something about an EI flight frightened you once, and that subconciously (or even consciously) you attach the same fear to all other EI flights. People who become scared of flying often quote a single "bad" flight. When you fly EI, you are probably at a heightened sense of awareness, so every little judder or noise is amplified in your head. With other airlines this may well not be the case, as you don't attach the same level of fear, as the surroundings are different.

You may well have just been unlucky and been in a couple of the harder of the safe envelope for landing when in EI jets?

Either way, I would strongly recommend trying a fear of flying course - I have been on one as an observer and cannot tell you how good it was. Only 2 out of the 102 on the course had not flown before and many had a story or two to tell. Those on the course varied from a bit apprehensive, to palpitations on sight of an aircraft. Once you recognise you are frightened/uncomfortable and you take steps to remedy it (like you are doing here) you are well on the way to beating it.

[Kangar]

Got to say I agree with the reply above in relation to one bad experience colouring you view of all subsequent encounters with EI. I have flown them many times into and out of EIDW, and found them to be fine , same as any other?

[CarbHeatIn]

I've been commuting DUB-LHR/LCY on a mixture of EI/BD/WX on average every 2nd weekend since last november. I don't agree with you in the slightest. Granted, DUB can be blustery at times, but that adds to the enjoyment of the approach as far as I'm concerned.

[cwatters]

Try tightening your seat belt as tight as you can. Don't laugh. It works.

[trustno1]

Drink two large whiskeys and you will cease to care. In fact you'll probably wouldn't mind if the landing was a bit more sporty. Seriously though, in my opinion EI are much the same as everybody else I've flown with.

[prasina]

All your comments and opinions have been helpful particularly Jetstream Rider. I have considered going on a fear of flying course so if you have any details I'd be most grateful.

Perhaps it's just bad luck and/or heightened awareness and I was willing to accept that.

Trustno 1, the whiskey does help a lot! I've tried it!

Thanks All.

[apaddyinuk]

To be honest I have always found DUB to be a bit of a bumpy landing especially when coming from the East but that has been with any airline I have flown in with. I can remember one particular event on a BMI A321 from LHR when myself and my friend (both of us are crew, myself for BA and my friend for EI) were sitting about midway down the aircraft. Things were very shakey throughout the final approach and as we smacked into the runway we noticed that we were well late down the runway as we had cleared a carpark which was off to the left of it. The brakes were applied hard and the two of us just looked at one another without saying anything and were preparing to get into the brace position. All in all nothing happened and we safely exited the runway and we both felt a little silly. However, I have often considered this to be my "bad" experience and I often think of it when I jump on a BMI plane back to dublin when EI is full!!! However, I have experienced much scarier incidents since so I put it all down to experience!!!

[holyflyer]

One thing to bear in mind when arriving at LHR on 27R (the northern runway) is that EI and BM flights like to make the runway turn off opposite their gates. This avoids an extended taxi but inevitably means getting the kite down firmly, a small amount of reverse thrust and harder braking. It does mean that you will be in the terminal that bit sooner.

The problem with DUB arrivals coming in from the east can be the varying winds caused by an initial approach over the sea then the last couple of miles over land. (Onshore/Offshore winds which may be at variance from the wind close to the runway).

My last experience of EI was a superb flight on an A321 out of LHR 27R overhead White Waltham to CPT then direct - right turn past Brize Norton and out over mid Wales, just south of Caernarvon, Holyhead and straight into the approach for DUB. Quickest trip I've had in years. The return usually involves many splendid views of Hertfordshire as we go round and round the BNN hold.

[Jetstream Rider]

Prasina - you are welcome, hope it helps.

I don't think we are allowed to advertise here, but if you type "fear flying course" into Google you will find what you are looking for. The course I went on was the one in conjunction with BA, about the second one down. Highly recommended.

[Irish Steve]

From long experience, EI are no worse, or better, than anyone else at DUB. There is a problem with the main 28 runway not being aligned with the prevailing wind, but more significantly, there is also the problem of the wind coming over and round the Wicklow hills, south of Dublin, which does cause a lot of changes in speeds and directions, making for "interesting" approaches, especially when the wind is stronger.

The winds at DUB itself are often stronger than elsewhere for the same reason, wind is lazy, so instead of going over the hills, it goes round, so the area around DUB gets an extra bonus when the wind is south westerly, which it is most of the time. I live about 7 miles north of the airport, and I see it regularly, the wind at the airport can be quite a bit stronger than at home.

Another factor is that for some reason, aircraft landing at DUB seem to get down to final approach height earlier than at some other airports, which again, makes for more disturbance.

Add to that the transition from sea to land, and the approach can indeed be more disturbed than would be the case elsewhere.

The suggestions about fear of flying courses are valid, and may indeed help to remove some of the concerns about what's actually happening.

[squigs]

hi guys im a wannabe pilot...but 4 d meantime im stuck in stupid college in dublin....cuttin to d chase...i train in alsaa every mon nite at 7.....jus south of the east-west runway threshold in dub...do any of ye **** yourselfs with the height of the floodlights and goal posts......correct me if im wrong but an awful lot of you seem to pull up slightly(engine noise also increases)...but suddenly on the way in...way before the flare stage....anyone care to comment??...particularly aerlingus and ryan air pilots!

[Jetstream Rider]

If you want to be a Pilot, you will have to realise that College is not stupid. You will also have to learn to write properly and ask questions in an appropriate manner.

The goalposts and lights are not a problem, everything around an airport has to be below a certain height related to the distance from the airport. There are some exceptions, but floodlights are not one of them. There may well be an area of "sink" before the threshold of the runway which will cause pilots to increase power to maintain the correct profile and speed, and in windy conditions this is very common everywhere.

[anotherglassofwine]

As a regular in and out of Dublin with Aer Lingus, BMI and CityJet, I can't say it's much different than any other approach. I've had a couple of bumpy approaches passing Howth Head, but nothing like I've experienced in the states - or a particularly exciting approach into Wellington!
As some of the other posters say here, perhaps a bad experience has left you a little bit over sensitive when on a particular aircraft type or carrier to a particular destination. The best advice I can personally give you is to focus on relaxing by taking deep breaths and relaxing the muscles as much as you can. If that doesn't work - go for a Brandy if you're partial to that. If you're not a drinker, than maybe stay clear of the booze. I'm a big fan of two glasses of red with my dinner - helps me doze off and relax on the longer trips. Give the breathing technique a lash next time you're on board (works for my nervous flyer wife)and I'm sure you will be fine and really enjoy that beautiful Dublin bay approach.

Ps. Squigs - College is not stupid. A decent education has given me the opportunity to fly privately - I certainly wouldn't have been able to afford this if I hadn't put in the effort when I was in College in Dublin.

[wingman863]

After that I can just imagine.

The pilots of tomorrow.

Pre-Flight

"Allrite ladies and gents. I'm yer driver for diss evenins flite to malaga. We''ll be goin to the big long road in a tick where we'll start 2 fly after i like fire up the engines (which is i mite add, really feckin noisy).

Mid-Flight

"The fit birds and that gay guy are about to give ye yer food now. I've just had mine and it was ****e so yours will probably be worse. Its pissin in Malaga at the mo and yer holiday will be bollocks so just sit back and pray ta **** dat i get us there in one piece (altho less that 5 is wat i generally aim for)" Out the left side of the plane ye mite see the big green statue in new york cos we've gone the long way 2day. G2G cos we've just found a bottle of aftershock under my seat up here in the cockpit (haha I love that word) and my mate dave's got some shot glasses out."

Pre-Landing

"Its me again, the guy with the hat. I'm wapped after that aftershock. Was the red one we had. The smell of piella is feckin strong up here so were near spain i tink. Hope u enjoyed yer flite with us and if ye didnt, **** off to those orange bastards as the CEO likes to say. Cabin Crew prepare the bit wit all the seats to hit the deck."

[conor_mc]

anotherglassofwine,

I'm told that the turn out over the strait for a northerly landing in Wellington is well known locally as "The Big Dipper"!

I've had an interesting landing there also, worst low-level turbulence/wind shear I've ever experienced on an approach, compounded by the knowledge (being the only pax in the cabin who could look back and see...) that the port engine had been shut down for whatever reason.... only time I've ever contemplated that an emergency situation may be on the cards....

[anotherglassofwine]

Conor_mc,
Didn't know the Kiwi's referred to it as that - makes sense! In hindsight it was a great ride, although probably didn't enjoy it at the time! - sounds like you had a bit of fun too, but I'll stick with the 2 engines approach next time I visit!

cheers
AGOW

[MarkD]

Irish Steve

it would be typical that Aer Rianta reaction to a runway "not aligned with prevailing winds" would be to build another in the same alignment :D

[Irish Steve]

it would be typical that Aer Rianta reaction to a runway "not aligned with prevailing winds" would be to build another in the same alignment

True, but they've not much choice now.

One of the many hassles with 23 was that the departure profile took it over too many places with houses and the like, so the noise ( and (shhhh) safety ) aspects were an issue when they decided they needed a new runway. 23 was too short, there was no way to extend it towards Finglas without even bigger noise problems, and the other end the valley would have taken 10 years to fill, though I suppose if they'd made a municipal dump of the area it would have filled quicker, but then they'd have had seagull problems :O

28 isn't that bad for direction, the main hassle they can't do much about, unless you want to move the Wicklow mountains:O .

What would be more than helpful is if the relevant people would get off their hands and decide what is going to be done to avoid total grid lock within 5 miles of the airport. The problems airside are bad enough, then add to that the landside issues, and they've not helped that any with the recent changes to the departure road, all that is now is an accident waiting to happen.

[prasina]

What can I say guys...thanks for all the explanations and advice. I feel a lot better.

Looking forward to my next flight...now where did I put that bottle of brandy?:ok:

[squigs]

sorry for upsetting a couple of you flyboys there yesterday with my "stupid college" remark. I only speak ill of it because i'm absolutely dying to get at the controls.......and as for the pre flight announcment of tomorrow, id say it might go a little more somthing like this...
"good evening ladies and gentlemen my name is "ROBOPLANE1000"

.............my opinion is dont take your comfortable position for granted(if you do)....it might not be there for too long. I'm studying geomatics, i wont go into it but there is alot of G.P.S study and as soon as the europeans and russians have their versions up and running.....it may(dont quote me) mean bye bye mr pilot because the industry standard sets safety parameters at 99.9% and the current G.P.S systems in use are not too far off......any takers??

[squigs]

sorry for upsetting a couple of you flyboys there yesterday with my "stupid college" remark. I only speak ill of it because i'm absolutely dying to get at the controls.......and as for the pre flight announcment of tomorrow, id say it might go a little more somthing like this...
"good evening ladies and gentlemen my name is "ROBOPLANE1000"

.............my opinion is dont take your comfortable position for granted(if you do)....it might not be there for too long. I'm studying geomatics, i wont go into it but there is alot of G.P.S study and as soon as the europeans and russians have their versions up and running.....it may(dont quote me) mean bye bye mr pilot because the industry standard sets safety parameters at 99.9% and the current G.P.S systems in use are not too far off......any takers??

[Rainboe]

I don't know if anybody is upset by perhaps some overstated posts by someone with extremely limited aviation experience, but multiple posts upset the moderators no end!

It's all very well trotting out the 'there will be no pilots needed soon' stuff. You talk about safety parameters of 99.9%. What about the other 0.1%? Get some experience of real life before preaching to us.

[Groundloop]

Safety standards of only 99.9%! So 1 flight in every thousand may end in disaster! Gulp!

Squigs, I happen to be in the rather strange position of teaching air transport AND geomatics. There is an awful lot of cr*p spouted about GPS, GLONASS, EGNOS and Galileo. It will be many, many years before we se the end of pilots.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I would agree with Rainboe. Many moons - maybe 25+ years ago - a smart young graduate sat next to me in Heathrow Tower... told me he'd been "tasked" with finding a computer replacement for air traffic controllers. He was a well-meaning bloke, but wasn't particularly switched on and took umbrage when I politely suggested he'd be better employed working out the tea rota.

I wonder what he's doing now... and there are still air traffic controllers doing a superb job, largely out of their brains with little help from computer chips.... and they're likely to be continuing to do so long after I've gone.

[Rhodie]

I was going to reply earlier to the little squibs post, but I was too angry and the mods would have binned it...

In fact, I'me still too angry... :mad:

I only speak ill of it because i'm absolutely dying to get at the controls.......

No chance - go back to school, you don't appear to have learnt a thing yet..

R

[mini]

Irish Steve, until they build a realistic airport somewhere else and include the required infrastructure nothing will change. Too many small picture halfwits making (and influencing) the decisions IMHO...

Sqiggs, it won't happen anytime soon, many punters are nervous enough with pros at the controls, tell them they're going to be flown by a machine & watch 'em march.

[squigs]

haha...i thought pilots were meant to be in control...not freaking out at supposedly inexperienced individuals like myself!? Quite the reception my theory recieved...flattered was I?? Yes i only put forward the idea. The posts that followed were slightly daunting...were some pilots a "bit" annoyed? ......does air rage exist in the cockpit as well as economy?

[anotherglassofwine]

Squigs,
Your post is going to offend and anger people because it is phrased like an 8 year old kid trying to pick a fight in the school yard. If you want to start a debate with the Pros here - probably best to do so in a mature and mutually respectful way. (bearing in mind that you haven't even graduated yet)

.............my opinion is dont take your comfortable position for granted

That's not an opinion - thats a warning. Listen to yourself, a college kid posting on a professional Pilot website with warnings for guys here with half your lifetime spent in an airplane. Seriously, read your posts back to yourself before you click the submit button again - and have a bit of respect. If you have any chance of getting 'at the controls' you will need that.

[BOAC]

I think you will find that if you ignore him/her, then they might go away. It has been said time and time again, responding merely encourages posters like that.

Use the 'ignore' function if it helps - 'member list', 'squigs', 'add to ignore list.'

Users of this forum may not be used to such posters, but they infest other forums.

I do not feel that a ban is appropriate - yet!:D

[Gonzo]

HD,

Well, last cycle our tea rota was still done manually, so I really don't know where that bloke went!