View Full Version : Pointless whining.
I have to say that having read the whole of the rotorheads pages the underlying trend I pick up is that we all seem to think that we are worth more than we actually are. Come on guys.... it's not rocket science is it. We all have a skill that is reasonably in demand and keeps us in decent homes and clothes. Lets be thankful that most of us earn decent money and knuckle down to doing as professional a job as possible for our employers and passengers alike. Sorry but it's true guys.
semirigid rotor
15th Dec 1999, 01:00
The rotorheads page would not be the same without a little moaning. That's why the collective noun for the group is a whinge of pilots, a lost of navigators...any more?
leading edge
15th Dec 1999, 10:23
Tips
The problem is that people like you who are content to just sit back and do nothing to improve their lot drag the rest of us down with you. So you carry on enjoying your nice little life and let the rest of us drag the industry up to where it should be.
Unfortunately, you will probably also benefit from our collective struggle (!) to improve things having contributed nothing. As an industry, we are mocked by employers who think that they can walk all over us and that we will all be like you and accept it all and be happy. You must be management with your attitude. If you are, then you've no business in here.
Go and tell all the other people who are losing their jobs and conditions how happy you are. You'll make lots of new friends.
It would appear that maybe I have touched a nerve here. I am not management, just a professional pilot who wants a fair wage for a fair amount of my skilled time. Without wanting to get into a mud slinging match I do think that some people are perhaps not receiving renumeration inline with their skill level, but they are an exception. I have a huge amount of sympathy with anyone from any profession who does not recieve a fair wage, however I have little time for people constantly whining at their lot. If it really is that bad move professions or move up in this one if ones abilities allow it.
Chip Lite
16th Dec 1999, 04:14
Leading edge- What a pleasnt surprise to hear the cynical appoach to commonsense.
Tips- you're obviously in honeymooon phase!
Call again a few years time!
Hi Chip (on shoulder??) Lite. My honeymoon has thus lasted 11 years and the situation is still ok. I would refer you back to my previous comments about the fact that we are not rockrt scientists merely reasonably skilled people in a particular industry. If people dont like it please feel free to get off your bacsides and do something else if you have the ability to do so.
Before anyone else says so .... ok I meant rocket.
Houdini
16th Dec 1999, 23:46
TIPS,
You certainly seemed to have stirred the hornet’s nest. I used to have a friend in my company who said very similar things to you; they made him redundant without a second thought
Certainly, on the North Sea, the salaries and conditions of employment have deteriorated markedly over the last seven or eight years and the employers seem not to care too much whether you have a job or not, as long as they keep theirs. After all, there is always someone cheaper that can be trained to do it if necessary.
I hope it doesn’t happen to you!
Chinook
17th Dec 1999, 22:56
Hey guys ....
Life is what you make it, the job is just a small part of your life.
If you don't believe me, bury a few aircrew and then re-assess your priorities.
I love, hate, despise and respect my employer ..... every single day, but I ain't complaining.
If your lot is not good enough for you .. carry on fighting. Good luck. I will hug my wife and kids every night I get home.
212man
18th Dec 1999, 04:06
Let's get this straight,
in civil aviation we get paid by pax numbers/hull size. So, flying a 18 seat helicopter we should get low turbo prop scales. But we actually get low jet scales. Shurly shum mishtake.
Being the Devil's advocate here, £38,000 for a F/O and £45,000 for a captain who is home every night is not too bad in the cosmic scale of things. Ask the man on the Clapham omnibus.
On the other hand, things have not changed a great deal in recent years and inflation continues regardless. Also, companies sack pilots after 25 years and re-employ them on £1200 pm less to do the same job.
So all is not as it might seem. Take your pick and like it or lump it.
Happiness is Vr at Lagos.
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Ack2Main
18th Dec 1999, 20:57
212man
I would love to know who you work for with wages like that !!!
212man
19th Dec 1999, 00:53
Ack2main,
how many UK companies operate the 212? elimentary my dear Watson.
They were figures for a top end North Sea Co, and a Junior Capt. Senior Captains with bits on top earn £ 60,000+. That's why they are being sacked. So the basic tennant of the thread rings true.
Salaries are a very emotive issue, talk to engineers! It's a fact that a junior FO in an IT outfit earns as much as a North Sea Captain, on the other hand a Dash 8/F50 Captain working similar duties earns a bit less. Which is correct?
Personally I'm in favour of the best salary available, with some degree of security and hope of a future.
Happiness is Vr at Lagos.
PS,Ack2, I see you're in Norfolk, so am I. Nigeria based, but living in Norwich. E-mail me if you want more info.
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 18 December 1999).]
Tips - refreshing viewpoint and one I have some sympathy with. It certainly rattled cages!
Although I think the offshore guys may have had a hard time recently they have lived high on the hog in the past. No one owes us a living..and it is a marketplace out there. That's what capitalism is all about. Its a shame that we are in a cyclic shrinking of the market at the moment since it does affect what I (we) can earn. But I remember 1986 (and 1976!) when any idiot could get a job at more than he was worth, and management (which I was in 1986)then had to hold their hands, wipe their arses and pick up after them.
As a driver again I look forward to the next turnaround.
Hoist-to-Crew
21st Dec 1999, 23:06
As a military pilot the more I hear about helo flying in the real world the less I want to do it. Is it really that bad?
I know that I don't get a large wage and the detachments are a bugger, though not really in my line of work as a SAR boy, but the conditions seem(at least in an operating and job security sense)much better where I am.
tigerpilot
26th Dec 1999, 12:08
Referring to an much earlier thread, 212man stated quite rightly that slaries are related to hull size.
This is an historical precedent, but why is it perpetuated???? Surely a slary related to the level of skill required to do the job, the ****iness thereof, etc., etc., should go into the equation?????
Food for thought?
helidrvr
3rd Jan 2000, 18:35
I can't help but wonder if you have been in the business long enough to have experienced the dramatic changes in our compensation rates over the last quarter century. Even if what you say is fundamentally true, there is no doubt that the market forces which ultimately determine our compensation rates have deteriorated to say the least. In the mid seventies I was earning $100/hour as a contract pilot. Today, 25 years later the hourly contract rate for the same type of flying (bush work) remains roughly the same. Using the CPI inflation calculator, $100 in 1975 bought as much as $309 would in 1999. Or, if you prefer, today a contract bush pilot is earning 30% of what he would have earned in 1975 for the same type of work. Such a decline in inflation adjusted pay is surely catastrophic in any one's book. Legitimate reason for at least some discontent, woudn't you say?
Once again we are all drawn into a discussion regarding our worth to our employers, and it seems pretty much agreed that we have virtually none. If we dont like it we are cordially invited to seek employment elsewhere. "Market forces" seems to be the catchphrase of the day. The only market forces on the North Sea are the oil companies dictating to us the figures they will pay. Forget safety, forget professionalism, all the dear accountant want to see is the smallest price at the bottom of the bill. Wages have remained fairly static for some time, whilst the multi-BILLION dollar profits of the oil companies continue to soar. Is it unrealistic for a company to expect more than a 1% profit each year? The helio ops constitute circa 0.5-1% of the oil companies' transport costs, a very small drop in a very large ocean. As per usual it will take fatalities offshore before anything is re-assesed. Would it not make a pleasant change to see the 2 remaining helio ops dictate to the oil companies, or are they still the gutless lapdogs most people see them as.
leading edge
6th Jan 2000, 08:37
Both OLOG/Bristow and CHC/Scotia will raise rates in the near future. CHC have a HUGE debt to service and OLOG/Bristow are losing money. Rates may go up but don't expect it to flow on to crew wages and conditions, it won't. Bristow have now recognised the union (BALPA) but it is BALPA who are lap dogs to the helicopter companies. There has been no action by crews because BALPA probably won't back them.
So the situation is that you've got lap dog helicopter companies in bed with a lap dog union and its the crews who continually get the baseball bat where it hurts.
I wonder if BALPA are really the best union to represent the NS pilots. After all, they've one NOTHING to improve their members' pay and conditions for many years.
So, basically, nothing will happen until market forces dictate that wages rise and conditions improve. I'm just glad that I'm not there any more. I'm not selfish, just very fortunate, and I whloeheartedly support the North Sea Pilots in their continuing strife.
leading edge
6th Jan 2000, 08:41
Both OLOG/Bristow and CHC/Scotia will raise rates in the near future. CHC have a HUGE debt to service and OLOG/Bristow are losing money. Rates may go up but don't expect it to flow on to crew wages and conditions, it won't. Bristow have now recognised the union (BALPA) but it is BALPA who are lap dogs to the helicopter companies. There has been no action by crews because BALPA probably won't back them.
So the situation is that you've got lap dog helicopter companies in bed with a lap dog union and its the crews who continually get the baseball bat where it hurts.
I wonder if BALPA are really the best union to represent the NS pilots. After all, they've done NOTHING to improve their members' pay and conditions for many years.
So, basically, nothing will happen until market forces dictate that wages rise and conditions improve. I'm just glad that I'm not there any more. I'm not selfish, just very fortunate, and I whloeheartedly support the North Sea Pilots in their continuing strife.
semirigid rotor
6th Jan 2000, 14:57
Nothing is going to change on the North Sea until the pilots act as one. A mornings action would be all that is needed, by 5pm pay and conditions would be top of the agenda at the oil companies. (We all agree it is the oil companies drive for profit that has led us to this point)This will never happen. We are all professionals and would not leave guys stranded offshore/food and mail onshore. Therefore the cycle continues, until a demoralised crew in an ageing helicopter working in an overstretched enviroment has an accident and the law suites start flying. Then 2 years later, after the public enquiry something maybe done. Tombstone industrial relations!
Pinger
6th Jan 2000, 18:02
It might work, semi rigid, but youd probably find yourself still on a blacklist 10 years later just as the last lot did, and not a thing BALPA or anyone else can do to help...
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif
[This message has been edited by Pinger (edited 06 January 2000).]
VortexGenerator
9th Jan 2000, 03:05
212 Man
I have sussed by your tone who you are, Tiger, Aberdeen 6 years ago. The volume of your opinions was (and I suspect still is) inversely propotional to your Captains assessment of your ability. A 10 year captain on the North Sea should be earning £48k pa. (before Aberdeen allowance). Tips, you obviously have no experience of extensive night shuttling in poor weather.
VortexGenerator
9th Jan 2000, 03:16
212 Man
£38k for a F/O in your company, wake up man!
This salary is about right for a year 1 Captain (excluding Aberdeen allowance)
212man
9th Jan 2000, 11:40
Vortex, why do people feel the need to get personal here.......?
1. I've no idea what the remark about captain's ability was supposed to prove. I'm a training captain, does that help with your query?
2. I did not say junior F/O, I was saying that a Senior F/O (SFO, or non NS commander pilot) would get that figure. Ask a small female 61 driver, she will almost cetainly be close to that figure. Even if I'm a grand or two out, the point I was making was that a senior co-pilot will earn the same as a junior turbo prop captain with BRA, Brymon KLMUK etc. I did not imply that we are overpaid, I simply pointed out a few facts. If we wish to argue a case for more pay, it has to be against the backdrop of the wider commercial industry. We are pricing ourselves out of overseas contract.
3. Sussed out who I am? That's clever... I don't hide under anonymity like some people.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
Vortex Generator...... bad weather ops etc......do me a favour sonny, I was in Baghdad before you were in your dads bag lad!
maxdownwash
11th Jan 2000, 02:27
one seven nine
[This message has been edited by maxdownwash (edited 17 January 2000).]
cyclic
12th Jan 2000, 00:39
I recognise that - it's humour
Very good.
EFATO
12th Jan 2000, 03:20
The only way to assess are "worth" in the oil industry is compare our salaries with other offshore workers. A HLO gets about the same as a junior captain, but no leave entitlement. A NDT inspector about £55000 when offshore based. A crane operator: well I wouldn't like to say. Most offshore workers are surprised at how low we are in the offshore salary pecking order. Let's hope that are worth is recognised before all the HLOs will hear is fixed wing pilots calling them on the radio to ask how much they enjoy the boat trips to from work!!
Captain Catastrophy
12th Jan 2000, 13:49
Leading edge, at the risk of opening up a whole new can of worms, I must take exception to your description of Balpa as a 'lapdog union'. BALPA's lack of 'success'in raising wages is down to lack of union recognition and the sheer greed of some of it's members. Anyone who thinks that BALPA can waltz in and wave a magic wand and all will be well is living in cloud cuckoo land. For action to be successful it requires ALL members to act. On the few occassions where some sort of action has been discussed, people have taken the cash and run and they will always do so. The failure to improve conditions, I'm afraid, rests with us.
212man
12th Jan 2000, 14:02
I agree. At the end of the day, a union is just a bunch of guys that get together to improve their lot. It is not some magical institution with supreme powers.
Salaries are such an emotive issue that it is difficult to have an objective discussion about them. As an example, a North Sea pilot gets more (gross, before anyone starts) than his colleagues based in Nigeria, where's the logic in that? Most other contractors there get bonuses ranging from 30-77% of their gross salary, as a location allowance.
As a reality check, ask the man on the Clapham omnibus. He might shed some light on the situation.
Anyway, must go as I have a plane to catch.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 12 January 2000).]
Aerospit
13th Jan 2000, 20:42
As a new boy to pprune I have been reading the whingeing pilots section with interest and would like to offer my tuppence-worth.
I am generally content with life. However, I cannot say that my salary is that brilliant as a co-pilot. I have a wife and child to support with all the usual takers of money (mortgage, loans, etc). Last year my company did not have a pay rise. Therefore I have in effect had a pay cut as my salary has not matched inflation and will continue to do so as there are no more increments left until promotion.
I would agree that management are only looking after themselves and not their staff. The redundancies showed that by taking all the experienced staff away. After all, two young sprog co-pilots are financially better than one "expensive" captain with loads of experience under his belt in the eyes of an accountant who has no knowledge of aviation, only pound/dollar signs!
I also saw the note about how useful, or not, BALPA are in the North Sea. Seeing that BALPA was only recognised by one company (BIH), it's understandable that they could not be much help. In my company a large majority of pilots are in BALPA but for what reason? Most purely for the legal backup in the case they are involved in an accident! Many of the new pilots are not going to rock the boat by not flying for a morning because they see themselves as having a good salary at such a young age. Most are not even contemplating staying in the company for more than a few years, anyway, as they are doing their plank-wing exams and are using the company just to get some experience. Therefore they are not even that bothered about future career prospects. They arrived just before a major redundancy and they can see that the North Sea is no place to make a career.
Although the majority of pilots are in BALPA, the company has only just recognised the union. However, when you look at who is still in management, they are not used to working with unions. After all, they had to go on a course on how to deal with them. Most of that probably went over their heads as they are not really prepared to deal with the situation. They have no experience and are not bothered about gaining any as they are retiring in a few years with major pensions.
In another company, to be in BALPA was to be in the underground. Mention that dirty word and you would be in trouble.
How are BALPA going to get anything done in either of those environments? With recognition, it is going to take time for trust to be built up by both sides and it will take a lot of hard work and time by the company councils. It was never going to work immediately despite all our hopes. After all, my company is now trying to bring in new rosters without any consultation with the union.
To correct 212man, he has obviously been out of UK for a while. The co-pilot he refers to is probably on that salary but she is on a different pay scale to those that have joined since 1995. The most a SFO can hope to earn (before allowances) is approximately £34400. The other companies are about the same plus or minus a thousand or so. These figues were sent out in a BALPA newsletter not so long ago.
Just my opinions.
leading edge
15th Jan 2000, 09:41
Captain Catastrophe
The threat of Union recognition for Bristow has been around since 1977. The Company has always resisted until now, and has probably given in due to new European Laws which have come into force.
In Bristow, a reasonably cosy relationship existed between the company and BALPA for a number of years, particularly during the late 80s and early 90s. Providing Bristow treated the crews lawfully, BALPA were not really keen to get involved, that was the unspoken agreement. "Just do it by the book" was the union's mentality. When Bristow couldn't or wouldn't give an RPI payrise on a couple of occasions, BALPA were counselled ,the situation explained and the deal done before the staff even knew that they weren't going to get an increase.
I therefore stand by my comments that BALPA have been lap dogs.
It has taken BALPA 22 years to achieve recognition in Bristow. Surely, a more responsible and active union with the membership levels which have existed within Bristow for the past 15 years would have, could have and should have done more to achieve recognition. I suppose some of the blame lies at the hands of the ultra right wing, anti-union Thatcher Government, but BALPA should still accept some of the blame.
BALPA should, for once, stand up for their membership and show an interest in helicopter pilots. I WOULD probably still pay my subscriptions if I was working the North Sea because there is not much alternative, but I would be strongly urging BALPA to achieve some results after 22 years of collecting my money and doing too little.
I am not foolish enough to assume that there is a magic wand solution, I have a working knowledge of unions because luckily, here in Oz, they are recognised and actually stand up for the interests of their members while adopting a responsible approach. Some companies, including Lloyd have managed to have a reasonable working relationship with the unions here.
Bristow, however, have always fought the union and have lost every case they have taken on against the Pilots Federation. That's what I call standing up for your members and BALPA could learn something from it. The system isn't perfect but it is better than UK.
Captain Catastrophy
18th Jan 2000, 18:34
For the second tine in 2 forums I have to take issue with Leading Edge's comments. BALPA are not a lap dog union. The failure to improve conditions in the North Sea is down to a refusal to recognise the Union by the management and, more importantly, an unwillingness of the workforce to act as one ( under any banner ). Time and time again, any attempt to agree or do anything has been undermined by the 20 or so % of the workforce who are happy to make loud noises in public but will take the money and run given the opportunity. Instead of looking for union / oil company / management scapegoats, we should all take a good hard look at what we have or haven't done.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
Captain Catastrophy
18th Jan 2000, 18:40
For the second tine in 2 forums I have to take issue with Leading Edge's comments. BALPA are not a lap dog union. The failure to improve conditions in the North Sea is down to a refusal to recognise the Union by the management and, more importantly, an unwillingness of the workforce to act as one ( under any banner ). Time and time again, any attempt to agree or do anything has been undermined by the 20 or so % of the workforce who are happy to make loud noises in public but will take the money and run given the opportunity. Instead of looking for union / oil company / management scapegoats, we should all take a good hard look at what we have or haven't done.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
helidrvr
18th Jan 2000, 21:00
Here's the bottom line.
1. We are being paid less than one third of what we used to get in the Seventies.
2. Many other professions have experienced similar reductions.
3. Those of us who are not Aviaholics have or will go to other careers. The rest of us? We love flying so much we'd probably do it for nothing.
Yes, I don't earn as much as I used to. Fortunately I also learned to do with less, so I continue to be happiest when I am flying and proud that I can.
Bell+
19th Jan 2000, 00:14
Stay professional, stay proud helidvr, a noble sentiment and one that I totally agree with. Take a look at the bosses, the oil companies and their shareholders however, and we see a group who are all too willing to exploit our positions. As a manager would you change any allowences, detachment pay or salaries if none of your workforce asked you to? Of course not. The reason we are under paid and undervalued is we are too afraid to stand up together and apply the minimal amount of pressure required the effect a change. Will this ever change? I doubt it, and will we continue to be seen as mugs? Of course.
leading edge
19th Jan 2000, 02:41
Well Catastrophy, you can argue with me all you like on these forums, but any Union which takes 22 years to get recognised with the support of 80% of the pilot workforce (your numbers) isn't much good in my opinion.
If it hasn't been a lap dog then it hasn't taken very good care of its business either and if you had paid 22 years worth of subscriptions and were still getting paid less than half of what you are worth then you might think so too. As you say, you are too young. I guess you have plenty of money, after all, there isn't anything to spend it on in Lincs is there!!