Safety, incidents, etc [Archive]

flybywire

6th Oct 2005, 21:37

Thread as suggested by VC10 Rib22.

A thread allowing all cabin crew to give examples of scenarios where their lives are being put at risk and what they think could be done to address these issues? CC could even state at what airport such negligence occurs and what conversations took place with the handling agents. Surely this has got to be at the top of your agendas, way above pay, routes, uniforms, ugly pax, etc?

Obviously, individuals can't be named but I leave it up to the discretion of the moderators whether handling company names can. The thread should not be a headhunt, nor should it be about settling old scores - it should be about preventing fellow CC being injured or killed in the future. I think you owe that to the memory of all colleagues who are no longer with you due to falling from aircraft.

I am sure that CC are not all innocent and have caused accidents in the past, through conversation or actions, so I invite handling agents to also state where they believe the problem lies, giving examples where appropriate. To aid balance, they may also name the airlines involved but, again, no individuals, please.

flybywire

12th Oct 2005, 14:15

Right....whenever I fly with this particular captain I don't feel comfortable. He's a pleasant enough chap, but has the ability to put off anybody (ground staff, dispatchers, fuellers, first officers, cabin crew etc). He is the kind of person who's always in a rush and wants to get back early, so stresses people to the limit, almost always obtaining the opposite result.

The other day something happened that really made me want to talk to somebody in the company about it (but I didn't).

We all boarded the aircraft just after 5am, for a quick and easy MRS there&back.
As we were doing our checks etc my colleague and I started smelling fuel at the back of the aircraft. It was very intense. It then spread all over the aircraft. I pass my checks over the PA as usual and inform the purser that there's a strong smell of fuel at the back which is unusual. Captain replies "Till we fly these machines on hydrogen, you'll always smell that!"

The puser then comes to the back, and having smelt what we did, calls the CPT to check himself.
Captain arrives elegantly chewing his gum and says he can't smell anything. He then calls the FO who, at the CPT's question "you don't smell anything, do you" replies "No I don't".
We then call the other cabin crew from the fwd galley who in fact can smell the same.

Pax boarding is delayed till the air clears. During all this time, no explanation from CPT.

Pax then board and as we start pushing back and while I was reading the demo, the smell increases again. It's really strong, so much that I feel a bit sick at this point. Passengers start questioning us. We cannot give a proper answer as we don't know what is going on ourselves. We try to calm them down, but with a full load of business pax who travel every day and know the aircraft almost better than us, lying isn't an option.

It's only after lots of pressure that the CPT says that this was the 1st flight of that particular a/c after being in the hangar and the paperwork showed that it had APU problems before etc etc etc and a load of rubbish.

Now at this point I thought:

1) Why joke about our concerns? why not being grateful for noticing and reporting what was going on?

2)Why not telling us immediately what was going on? Was he scared we would delay the flight even further so that he would miss his roast dinner?

3) why create so much upset for nothing....especially if he knew it wasn't something to worry about?

4) Where is the responsibility towards the passengers (and crew)??? When worried pax questioned us I was so angry I wanted to say "I don't know there's something wrong with the plane but the captain won't tell me"-of course I didn't, and just because I care about them.

I really hope I won't fly with this person for a long, long time. But I know that Sod's law always work. So I hope I can find a way to deal with this before then. Because if something happens next time, I'll propbably do something more about it.

Thanks for listening!!!

FBW:)

flyblue

12th Oct 2005, 15:53

FBW,
we have a form report called "REX" (Retour d'expérience") where you can you can report incidents that made you feel uncomfortable. I personally used it to report almost the same thing that occurred to me with a F/D crew. We reported something we thought was out of the ordinary, but we didn't get any feedback from them because it was caused by something they had forgot to do :rolleyes: So instead of ending it by a "oops, nobody's perfect", they convinced us that not only they weren't, but they also weren't mature enough to admit they were humans, and got a REX on top of all that to prove it.

Another thing I'd do, is talk about it on joint (CC-Pilots) CRM-Human Factors courses. I'm sure something like that must exist in your company. :ok:

ozskipper

12th Oct 2005, 19:59

Can I suggest that caution be exercised when posting in this thread. One of the Australian aviation magazines stopped publishing humourous "incidents" as CASA began using them as a means of investigating those involved.

Whilst safety issues should be reported, they should be reported using the appropriate channels. Posting identifiable information in this kind of forum (where there is no accountability of those who post) could be an issue for those named.

Remember, mud sticks whether it was fairly thrown at you or not.

(Anyways, that's my 2 cents!).

tea_or_coffee?

17th Oct 2005, 17:04

For those FD chaps that maybe browsing this who still go to work with the attitude we CC are all flying mattresses and thats about the extent of our usefullness (thankfully very rare these days), You may like to read something positive..............

One very icey and snowy morning just before departure the In charge went to the captain and repectfully mentioned that "the wing doesnt look right" The captain, a very crew friendly chap said he would take a look and thanked the in charge for bringing it to his attention and not to feel that she was not qualified to have done so.

On his inspection he found that side of the AC had not been de iced, a potential catastrophe averted.

So fly boys in the dark ages (I stress the band of few) have a little think and ask yourself if you have ever dismissed as nonsense a crew members concern.

GLAcabincrew

31st Oct 2005, 12:29

FBW,

Sounds like you should have flight reported it and sent it to your head office with your flight paperwork. In our company it would have gone to Flight Ops. It was a definite safety issue!!!!!

vortexadminman

17th Nov 2005, 22:36

As one of those front seat people find that disturbing (Although I am military not civvy driver) We have a few of them probably more percentage than you lot due to the good old rank thing. We tend to find taking them aside one night on a stopover some where and telling him/her that they are a grade A nob and if they dont't wake up and smell the coffee they will get A. A kicking or B. A report to the CRM (think thats the multi crew people for you)peeps and any comeback on this little chat will be met with you me in front of boss. Some tend to think that as a Capt they are the dogs bollocks so company will fall on their side. Seen that theory go west about four times now, so stick to your guns be suprised how companies can actually see through arrogance.

mouse78

9th Jan 2006, 08:54

This is why we have CRM training! Lets just hope that some people remember that we are a team, not just the tea and coffee chuckers down the back!

Crowsnest

11th Jan 2006, 19:31

Hi, apologies if this is the wrong place for this question but was just reading Flight and saw two separate incidents reported where doors were ripped off (large) aircraft by the boarding bridge....during the pushback.
Can anyone shed any light on how this could happen? Reputable airlines at major airports too.

HZ123

13th Feb 2006, 12:59

apaddyinuk

13th Feb 2006, 13:58

Flybywire....Hope your well chick!
Anyways, I would really push you to either report this incident in person with your ACCM or submit a chirp report. Im sure this chap is nice enough as a person but that kind of complacency (if it was that) or lack of consideration for you guys buy not explaining the situation is very dangerous. If you have a general concern this guy should not be allowed to make you feel inferior for bringing it up!
Only last week as I was standing in the Club World cabin on a 777 during boarding I kept observing a really loud grinding noise which I knew was not normal. I went to the flight deck, told the lovely lady captain about it and she personally came down and waited a few minutes in the area to observe the sound. It transpired to be nothing but an A/C pack which was subsequently reset. But all the same she thanked me for telling her and reminded me that I should always voice a concern no matter how minute it may be...this is the kind of person we should be using as an example to the rest of our flight deck colleagues although I still think ours our the best out there!

ABird747

28th Mar 2006, 16:52

As a ground trainer that resides at LHR but travels around the patch I do have one observetion to make that effects all CC. Here at BA it is forbidden to have any Cabin doors open without the jetty or steps being in place. I observe time and again the situation with doors open with nothing in place only the tape. This will not stop you falling out and seriously injuring yourself and has been fatal. If this practice exists in your airline stop doing it and get your procedures changed.

This 'no doors open' policy is one of my real bug bears... The number of times we've been sweating in the cabin as the APU's broken *again* and we can't open the doors because of the 'wrap you in cotton wool' hysteria that pervades the airline at times.

It just begs the question, how did we survive before? If you're really that stupid to fall out of a door, maybe you're too dumb to be let out of the house alone... Some of the things I see my colleagues doing leave me speechless, all people need to do is stop and THINK and half the stupid accidents won't happen.

verticalhold

21st Apr 2006, 15:01

Was once on a positioning flight with a well known carrier not long after they had started trading. The AC was an early model 737 with the usual oil leak on the side of the cowling. Shortly after take off the ground engineer I was travelling with said " you used to fly these things, do they normally leak as badly as that?" I looked out of the window and saw the normal oil leak was now a river. We both hit the call buttons at the same time and up came a young lady who asked what we wanted. We pointed out the problem and asked her to let the chap in the front left seat know. Her response "There is nothing wrong with the plane, and if there was the captain would know about it."

Production of ID cards showing that we were aircrew and ground engineer gave her the opportunity to tell us that we may be who we said but we obviously didn't know about the workings of that plane. Eventually my colleague shouted for the number one and when she arrived told her that if she didn't get straight up to the front and tell the boss he would. Bless her she looked out of the window and went straight to the cockpit.

In the meantime the original young lady accused us of making a fuss and trying to upset the other pax. When asked if she had heard of Kegworth she said "who?"

One minute later an announcement from the front we were returning to departure point, one engine shut down etc.

After landing the captain invited us to look at the aircraft with him and the engineers. There was bugger all oil left in the number 2 engine. the oil pressure and temp warnings had come on just after the number one had entered the cockpit.

Bless the number one. she knew the picture was wrong and went straight to the front. The other young lady learned a valuable lesson:- THE FLIGHT DECK DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING. And sometimes the pax just aren't just an embuggeration, occasionally they know aircraft better than the person doing the safety brief.

I hope pilots are allowed to post on this thread. We are all together up in the air and one F:mad: up could get us all at once.:ok:

flybywire

22nd Apr 2006, 15:41

Verticalhold that was one amazing incident - possible accident! Thank god nowadays almost all airlines (at least in europe) have quite good CRM courses where Kegworth is analized in details.

I had something similar happening about a year ago but we were on the ground thank god.
As we boarded this jet (an asian airline) I noticed some engineering work was still taking place. I was sitting on a window seat on the right-hand side and could watch some engineers working on engine n4.

That delayed our departure and the captain was clearly feeling the frustration that we were all sharing, and kept reassuring us that we would be on our way as soon as possible.

When we finally started pushing back the crew gave us a safety demo and we started taxiing slowly. It was at that point that I looked outside again and noticed that the engine hadn't been closed properly!!! I don't operate on that specific aircraft but I know planes well enough to realise it didn't look quite right!!!
My story is a happy one as I attracted the attention of a crew member and, in the nicest way possible, I pointed out to him what I saw.
Less than two minutes later we were taxiing back to stand, engineers called back and engine closed properly.

I never underestimate what my passengers say to me re. what they notice on my aircraft. It takes no time to have a look myself and in some cases I felt necessary asking one of the flight crew to come out and give me their opinion.

That problem of the oil leak on the 737-200 though is something I have seen - though not as bad as verticalhold's example - so many times. I remember the first time I saw it I was a young girl and I thought that was the norm!!!:eek:

Last thing : Pilots are more than welcome to write on the cc forum and they have always been! :)

FBW:)

flyblue

22nd Apr 2006, 17:08

verticalhold,
it seems almost impossible that such things can still happen, with all the effort the companies are putting into CRM! Well, obviously, as they say, some people are just impermeable to it :hmm:
Your story is very similar to a textbook one for CRM studies, the Dryden accident and if you read this (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/includes/printable.asp?lang=en) text you'll understand why.

I had a similar experience some years ago while I was on duty, when a Cabin Chief accused me and another collegue of not "trusting" our pilots since they hadn't come to check what was the problem we had reported, and hadn't communicated anything about it, as they should have. We said that unless we spoke to the F/D to make sure they were correctly aware of the problem (she had reported what we had said to them) we would fill a CRM report about the incident. At that point she went back to the F/D, and a very embarrassed F/O explained to us that as soon as the problem was reported he realised he had forgot a procedure (excuse me for being vague, but for security reason don't want to post too much information about it) and corrected the problem, but failed to communicate it to us because he didn't want to admit to a mistake. So in his view we should have happily taken off without being sure that everything was fine.

flybywire

22nd Apr 2006, 17:35

I had a similar experience some years ago while I was on duty, when a Cabin Chief accused me and another collegue of not "trusting" our pilots since they hadn't come to check what was the problem we had reported, and hadn't communicated anything about it, as they should have. We said that unless we spoke to the F/D to make sure they were correctly aware of the problem (she had reported what we had said to them) we would fill a CRM report about the incident. At that point she went back to the F/D, and a very embarrassed F/O explained to us that as soon as the problem was reported he realised he had forgot a procedure (excuse me for being vague, but for security reason don't want to post too much information about it) and corrected the problem, but failed to communicate it to us because he didn't want to admit to a mistake. So in his view we should have happily taken off without being sure that everything was fine.

You know flyblue a couple of months ago myself and a colleague had to challenge our flight crew once we landed as we definitely felt something unusual and worrying on our approach. Like you I don't really feel like giving details, but the Captain didn't want to explain and left the F/O (it was his sector) to explain "in his own words" what had happened. At first he came up with something that didn't convince us - we fly numerous sectors everyday on that aircraft and we know what feels normal and what doesn't! Then, after a long discussion, he admitted he had made a mistake and apologised. Apology or not, (we are all human beings after all) why not tell the truth straight away? As crew we have the right to know what is going on!! I am experienced enough and have never panicked even in difficult circumstances, so like the vast majority of cabin crew if I am concerned or if I notice something strange it must mean something!!!

You were very brave to confront your SCCM. I don't know if in our company we have CRM reports, I will have to make some enquieries. It's rare to have such problems like this I have to say, but CRM is no joke as previous accident investigations have revealed, and "that" time might be "the" time something goes completely wrong!!

FBW

flyblue

23rd Apr 2006, 17:27

flybywire,

actually they are not specifical CRM reports, but general reports (anonymous of signed) where one can underline the part that seemed worth reporting, in this case bad communication (ergo bad CRM).

Just to be clear here, the problem was not to demand an explanation to the F/D, but that as part of the crew we must be aware of what's going on to recognise a possibly dangerous situation, or one requiring our attention. In the case of the Dryden accident, the CC didn't report the pax's remark about ice on the wings (that might have saved many lives) because she had been rebuffed for doing so by another Captain in the past. So if we are told that "it was nothing" when patently it was something, we risk to file a wrong information in our experience baggage. And, last but not least, trying to safeguard someone's "pride" by trying to conceal the truth, along with a wrong order of priorities, might give the wrong impression that a wrong manoeuvre is a "mistake" while the Human Factors teach us there's no "mistake" but a series of events leading to a wrong manoeuvre.
Luckily it's been a big leap forward since that way of thinking.

mystiqueFLYER

20th May 2006, 17:14

I would like to know how it's possible to educate aviation crew on CRM knowing too well that cultural differences may affect the understanding and behaviour during questioning....

How would a F/O question the CAPT- his superior, when his culture advacates the following of heirachy.

You can put some people in a room for hours, days and weeks highlighting the importance of CRM and the free ability to question for reassurance...yet it may never sink in.

I question this because i see it in my work place, yet feel extremely helpless when i am being yelled at for questioning something i am unsure off.
This not only puts the fear in me based on their inability to question each other in that cockpit, but my concerns stems from any future mishaps.

I've questioned an FO as to why an incident happened that shouldn't have, and his response to me was ''don't worry, just do what the CAPT wants to keep him happy''....

Hell when i think of those words, it makes my skin crawl.:ugh:

nutcracker43

20th May 2006, 23:02

Mystic

Many countries have steep authority gradients and one can sympathise with your plight.

I suspect it is the fault of the CRM team in not ensuring that its teachings are not adhered to...I presume that your company acknowledges variences between cultures with regard to authority gradients. There was an excellent article in one of the flight safety magazines or Flight a couple of years ago wherin this was discussed...should I find it I shall e-mail it to you.

All cultures vary and if the requirements of RM are not being met then I suggest you raise it at your next Flight Safety meeting. At my last company we had many cultures and the potential for problems was huge. As soon as a problem of this nature arose the FS team discussed it with the individuals concerned and the situation regulated at the following FS meeting. It seemed to work OK.

At the one company I worked for we had one captain whose checks were such that any similarity between the checklist and what he did was purely coincidental...a quiet word to the rosterer ensured that I never had to fly with him again ever...similar actions by others ensured the fellow himself was recalibrated.

NC43

mystiqueFLYER

21st May 2006, 08:04

:sad: NUTCRACKER

I thank you for your feedback and in sharing your experiences.

You might not understand how difficult it is for me to approach my company with such incidents...it's something they would shrug off and sweep under the carpet.
I have made mention, however it doesn't mean action would be taken.

I would love to read more the article of mention.

It's such a shame because no matter what cultural background, every culture has it's individual beauty, but it's the little things that can make it so hard to break.

flybywire

21st May 2006, 10:52

nutcracker43

21st May 2006, 15:11

Mystic flyer.

I was about to suggest that you wrote to Chirps (not certain whether you are in the UK). I see someone has suggested Chirps in the post above...any 'naughties' are investigated. Companies generally do not like beig investigated, especially where FS is concerned.

Good luck with your quest....I'm off abroad next week for about six to eight weeks, however, I shalll send it as soon as I can rake it out.

NC43

kj008

23rd May 2006, 18:35

I really think that being a crew member, its your duty to report such incidents as it can be detrimental to yours and your passengers' lives.

I guess just because its a daily thing for crew members, complacancy sets in. This is dangerous.

If you look at the Helios crash, it was something to do with the A/c and pressure control.

I was once on a Air Sahara flight from Singapore to New Delhi when during landing, i noticed that one flap of the starboard speed break did not close properply. I informed a crew member who was very grateful for the said info.

Its these little reports that can safe huge destruction.

Try to be more responsible...and report such incidents.

kookabat

28th May 2006, 13:25

Remember the little old lady who noticed daylight through a whopping big crack in the roof of that Aloha 737, didn't say anything - and then the roof ripped off....:uhoh:

flybywire

12th Jun 2006, 18:08

For once I would like to report something really good that has just happened to me...

Yesterday I got called out for a 4-sector day. We were working with a brand new cabin crew and a crew new to the company but with a couple of years' flying experience. The captain was a fairly new captain as well. As I said we had to do 4 very short but oversold sectors. both in C and Y. As we took off for the last sector, both the purser and I (at the back) realised there was something wrong.

Myself and the other crew decided to go to the front (to respect interphone silence) to see whether they had noticed something. When we got there the purser was already in contact with the captain (to inform him that there was something wrong) who informed her that a few things were not right at all in the F/D and that he'd let us know as soon as possible what was going on and what his intentions were. It was 5 long minutes!!! We prepared for absolutely any option despite feeling the tension of not knowing what was going on. It could have been anything and a cabin crew with a bit of immagination can think of a million and one things!! We all drank a glass of water and started doing some breathing exercises to be able to slow our heart rates and to be able to focus properly. We then revised all our procedures together(decompression, Em. landing etc)

Passengers were unaware of anything but started noticing that we were going around in circles. The purser then made a PA informing that the captain would speak as soon as he could, and so he did straight away. He clearly - but at the same time in a very reassuring way - told them we had a problem and that we had to land back. He then asked us to prepare the cabin for a heavy landing.

All the crew were fantastic during this time, including the brand new one who had just come out of SEP training!!! Communications with the FC was really good all the way through and also while we were stuck on the ground waiting for the engineers to find the cause of the problem and solve it. They couldn't so we had an unscheduled night stop - unfortunately most of our valued customers were in the same hotel but yet again, the FC leadership and support was extremely good and made sure we were all safe and well in our rooms. We also had an extensive debriefing so that we all knew exactly what happened and we had a chance to share our own views and unload some "weight"!!!

I just wanted to write this as I have had some bad experiences in the past but also good ones, and this was a clear example of a professional, united crew where communication wasn't a problem, nor was it misused in any way. No false leaderships, but a very open, honest and professional approach by each person in their own specific role and as a whole team too.

We were happy about the decision of the FC to land back and we tried to help those passengers who became grumpy understand why. it's better to be on the ground wishing to be in the air than the other way round!!!

Our colleagues on the ground did a brilliant job too making our unscheduled stay as trouble-free as possible.

24 hours later we were all safely back at base. One thing I've learnt, always have some sort of make-up remover in the day bag!!!!!

I'm really proud of my colleagues today :ok:

FBW;)

flyblue

12th Jun 2006, 21:09

Makes you appreciate routine, huh? ;)
I just had an aborted T/O out of CDG three days ago, and let me tell you that a good crew synergy is as beautiful to experience as a statue by Michelangelo to see :)

Thank you for your story FBW!

ZBMAN

21st Jun 2006, 21:41

CRM is now mandatory in all UK airlines' training courses. However it seems that there are still several CRM incidents happening.

I think that what NC said makes a lot of sense. If when you try that you feel that you're talking "to a wall" then I suggest you write a CHIRP which will be considered by the CAA and investigated on (Of course if you're in the UK, but many other countries have something similar).

Recently my other half flew with a brand new F/O who stated to him: "I hate cabin crew"! :mad: You can imagine what kind of atmosphere there was during the flight in general and especially in the flight deck after this statement was made! My boyfriend was really not happy as this guy was also poor in communicating with him during normal operations.:ugh:

Well, this shows how CRM can be ineffective on some people and I believe that these individuals should be retrained till they can comply with the regulations while they are at work. Then, if on a nightstop they want to be miserable and hide in their room it's up to them, but such behaviour whilst on-duty should not be tolerated, as something said just because they didn't know what to do with their toungue at that time :hmm: could create a big barrier when/if an emergency occurred at any time during the flight.

I really cannot wait to fly with this new guy!!!!!!!:ugh:

I believe that we all have a role in preventing communication barriers from developing and in destroying them before they become a real issue. Accidents that happened in the past have tought us so much and we should all learn the lesson, whether we sit in the LH seat or near the APU!

FBW:)

(gosh I feel better now :E)

FBW,

Interesting post. However, it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is. CRM is not about being friendly, it is not about being chatty on the flight deck, or sociable down route. CRM is the art of removing the "human factor", ie about finding ways to fly safely and efficiently should the guy next to you be a tw*t!
In the example you describe, although the FO shouldn't have said what he said, and although the F/D must have been pretty quiet for the rest of the flight, I am sure both of them operated the flight in a professional and safe manner. I am also sure they would have coped well in the unfortunate event of an emergency. If your partner feels this was not the case, then it is as much his fault as the FO's to have let the situation deteriorate to that extent.
This guy was just probably nervous and trying rather clumsily to make conversation (I was in that position not too long ago :p), but I guess he should've known better!

flyblue

21st Jun 2006, 22:03

ZBMAN

it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is.

I think flybywire was referring to the poor quality of communication between this particular individual and the rest of the crew, and not to the fact that he was not being sociable and chatty. At least it's what I understood when she said: if on a nightstop they want to be miserable and hide in their room it's up to them
and

I believe that we all have a role in preventing communication barriers from developing and in destroying them before they become a real issue. Accidents that happened in the past have tought us so much and we should all learn the lesson.

flybywire

23rd Jun 2006, 10:05

FBW,

Interesting post. However, it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is. CRM is not about being friendly, it is not about being chatty on the flight deck, or sociable down route. CRM is the art of removing the "human factor", ie about finding ways to fly safely and efficiently should the guy next to you be a tw*t!

Really?
CRM used to be Cockpit Resource Management but was changed into CREW Resource Management, and that includes CC as well as FC and, believe it or not, ground staff too. "Human factors" that are created by being really unpleasant and having misconceptions about each others' roles are as fatal as, to quote your example, flying with a t*at and not knowing what to do!! In a way we're saying the same thing :rolleyes:
If you read my post above - the one about the diversion - you would see what I consider really good CRM.

In the example you describe, although the FO shouldn't have said what he said, and although the F/D must have been pretty quiet for the rest of the flight, I am sure both of them operated the flight in a professional and safe manner. I am also sure they would have coped well in the unfortunate event of an emergency. If your partner feels this was not the case, then it is as much his fault as the FO's to have let the situation deteriorate to that extent.

You're right, it's not a matter of CRM here, he is simply a rude person with little consideration and respect for others!! I don't understand why he wants to fly for an airline if he thinks that all cabin crew are such terrible people. Also, if he's mature enough to take charge of an aircraft full of people he should be mature enough to see that generalizations are usually not true and definitely unfair. We have examples of accidents when loss of life could have been prevented but was not, purely because of problems of a human relation nature (Saudia Arabian Lockeed TriStar - August 1980...rings a bell?)

My partner of course didn't appreciate his comments and was definitely annoyed by the attitude of a brand new first officer who should have known better, having just finished his training. However he did make any effort possible to try and avoid that this guy's unpleasant attitude didn't offend anybody else on board (Cabin Crew started complaining to him that this F/O passed in front of them in the galley a few times without saying a word and without responding to any kind of attempt of the CC to make conversation!!):= Again, I think you're right, why call it lack of CRM, let's call it rudeness!! :rolleyes:

This guy was just probably nervous and trying rather clumsily to make conversation (I was in that position not too long ago :p), but I guess he should've known better!

Nervous or not, we've all been there in our lives. If a person is struggling on their first few days they should at least make life easier for themselves avoiding conflict right from the start!! And no, he was not clumsy - I've had the pleasure to fly with him too - he probably overcomes his fears/insecurity by making loud statements that'd better keep in his mind and that are not nice, but probably give him some sort of feeling of potence. VERY SCARY!!
"I hate all cabin crew" doesn't really sound like somebody who's having troubles getting used to their new routine, but rather like somebody who's definitely in the wrong job.

asle

25th Jun 2006, 18:58

Hi. I am a Norwegian journalist. The last three years I have been researching toxic fumes in aircraft and published quite a few articles on the issue, many of which also available in english versions, http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/?type=indeks&tag=emneord&string=english+versions

I would really like to get in touch with cabin crew and pilots who have experienced such incidents on board.

My e-mail: [email protected]

Asle Hansen

Right....whenever I fly with this particular captain I don't feel comfortable. He's a pleasant enough chap, but has the ability to put off anybody (ground staff, dispatchers, fuellers, first officers, cabin crew etc). He is the kind of person who's always in a rush and wants to get back early, so stresses people to the limit, almost always obtaining the opposite result.

The other day something happened that really made me want to talk to somebody in the company about it (but I didn't).

We all boarded the aircraft just after 5am, for a quick and easy MRS there&back.
As we were doing our checks etc my colleague and I started smelling fuel at the back of the aircraft. It was very intense. It then spread all over the aircraft. I pass my checks over the PA as usual and inform the purser that there's a strong smell of fuel at the back which is unusual. Captain replies "Till we fly these machines on hydrogen, you'll always smell that!"

The puser then comes to the back, and having smelt what we did, calls the CPT to check himself.
Captain arrives elegantly chewing his gum and says he can't smell anything. He then calls the FO who, at the CPT's question "you don't smell anything, do you" replies "No I don't".
We then call the other cabin crew from the fwd galley who in fact can smell the same.

Pax boarding is delayed till the air clears. During all this time, no explanation from CPT.

Pax then board and as we start pushing back and while I was reading the demo, the smell increases again. It's really strong, so much that I feel a bit sick at this point. Passengers start questioning us. We cannot give a proper answer as we don't know what is going on ourselves. We try to calm them down, but with a full load of business pax who travel every day and know the aircraft almost better than us, lying isn't an option.

It's only after lots of pressure that the CPT says that this was the 1st flight of that particular a/c after being in the hangar and the paperwork showed that it had APU problems before etc etc etc and a load of rubbish.

Now at this point I thought:

1) Why joke about our concerns? why not being grateful for noticing and reporting what was going on?

2)Why not telling us immediately what was going on? Was he scared we would delay the flight even further so that he would miss his roast dinner?

3) why create so much upset for nothing....especially if he knew it wasn't something to worry about?

4) Where is the responsibility towards the passengers (and crew)??? When worried pax questioned us I was so angry I wanted to say "I don't know there's something wrong with the plane but the captain won't tell me"-of course I didn't, and just because I care about them.

I really hope I won't fly with this person for a long, long time. But I know that Sod's law always work. So I hope I can find a way to deal with this before then. Because if something happens next time, I'll propbably do something more about it.

Thanks for listening!!!

FBW:)

geordi

19th Nov 2006, 14:52

This 'no doors open' policy is one of my real bug bears... The number of times we've been sweating in the cabin as the APU's broken *again* and we can't open the doors because of the 'wrap you in cotton wool' hysteria that pervades the airline at times.

It just begs the question, how did we survive before? If you're really that stupid to fall out of a door, maybe you're too dumb to be let out of the house alone... Some of the things I see my colleagues doing leave me speechless, all people need to do is stop and THINK and half the stupid accidents won't happen.

I've recently come out of many years in an Aussie airline's Corp Safety - have to agree with my BA counterpart - the problem isn't that there haven't been previous accidents, or human error.... the thing is that there is legislation in the UK, Aus and NZ plus some other countries - the issue is "work at heights" and your cabin is a work environment.... so by all means, leave the door open with a strap across it, but be ready to explain to the regulators why you did so, and cough up lots of $$ as you walk out of your job! Also the airline will get fined, and if the regulator is really annoyed, can impose bans!

The message basically these days is - is an incident reasonably foreseeable, and a strap across a 3+ metre drop is a potential serious incident...

Also - have you tried to close D5 on 747 lately? Don't need to be dumb to fall out! It's actually amazing we haven't had more incidents!

Suggest its time we all started to think about Occupational safety and not just about service and Air safety.... also sometimes there's a reason for things, so try asking someone in your Safety Dept...

flybywire

19th Nov 2006, 17:37

Suggest its time we all started to think about Occupational safety and not just about service and Air safety.... also sometimes there's a reason for things, so try asking someone in your Safety Dept...

Very well said, I agree entirely and that's why I have been tempesting my superiors with incident reports, even for the smallest things. Sometimes people complain about "silly" regulations which are there for a reason and sure enough somebody had fought to obtain in the past.

When I eventually go back to work I will start pressurising them again: a wet galley because it's constantly raining inside it for 30 minutes thanks to our "if the stairs are there then the door must be open otherwise it can be closed" policy, at +2 degrees if you're lucky with gales making it even more enjoyable :uhoh: cannot be good or safe for crew and customers alike. Just wait till I get back....:hmm:

Rananim

30th Nov 2006, 12:16

Deteriorating relations between flt crew and FA's is sad and a sign of the times.In the States,FA's have disproportionately powerful union representation which miffs the pilots and causes resentment.But hopefully we try to do the best we can to get along and get the job done.Additionally,our FA's are older and crankier(sexism/ageism I know but so true).
Its interesting how pilots and FA's interact differently according to their cultural/ethnic origins.In the EAST,the authority gradient is steep and a Singapore girl is not going to address the CAptain by anything other than "Captain".Its formal,polite,and massages the male ego but the downside is that it can create a barrier where the FA feels that she cannot communicate any concerns for fear of overstepping her position.She believes the Captain is always right and of course this is not always the case.
The informality that we get in the WEST creates a feeling of openness and transparency but it can also have a downside.FA's are not in command of the aircraft and there must be some sense of hierarchy and leadership when you operate a sophisticated piece of machinery across thousands of miles with people's lives at stake.The Purser is not actually in command of anything on board a commercial airliner.The FAR's are quite explicit about this.Only dual pilot incapacitation would leave the Purser in command and then only if there werent any dead-heading flt crew on board.
The ideal situation(call it CRM if you want) is when all crew members are open ,friendly and relaxed with each other whilst at the same time respecting the protocols that must exist for any crew to function effectively.
The second-best is the formal scenario where FA's always defer to the flt crew;far from ideal as it inhibits instinct and a willingness to speak up.But its better than scenario 3 which is by far the worst;the dreaded divide between flt crew and FA's brought on by managements open policy of "divide-and rule" and a feeling of mistrust and resentment between the 2 parties.I have seen this at work and its an awful atmosphere to work in.When a FA secretly hopes that the Captain of the flight makes a mistake so she can get a report in OR when a CAPTAIN dismisses or totally ignores the concerns of his crew;this is when you have a total breakdown of relations and its a sad sight to behold.
In my experience,only Southwest Airlines would qualify for scenario 1 for more than 95% of the time.Scenario 2 would account for most if not all of the Asian/Gulf carriers.And unfortunately,a lot of US/Euro airlines would fall into scenario 3 or only qualify for scenario 1 intermittently.Or am I being too pessimistic there?
The real question is where did we go wrong and how can we change things?

flybywire

4th Dec 2006, 10:46

The ideal situation(call it CRM if you want) is when all crew members are open ,friendly and relaxed with each other whilst at the same time respecting the protocols that must exist for any crew to function effectively.

I have to say I feel quite lucky as in my company and in my base this is the situation 99% of the time. We call Captain Lousie "Louise", FO Dave "Dave" and so on.
It works extremely well 99% of the times, never once I had a Captain here introducing him/herself as "Captain". While it used to happen in Italy, for example.

There's a SMALL % of times where it doesn't work and it usually is the individual's fault, and it usually goes much further than that. I have to say it only happened 3 or 4 times in during my time in the UK when a Main Crew (and an FO once) literally disappeared during a turnaround to go have a fag in the terminal or to buy duty free without asking either the Purser's or the Captain's permission. A friendly, informal environment Can only work if the roles AND rules of conduct are clearly set in every individual's mind. Follow the protocol, accept the different roles, respect your workmates and we can all be friends. All to the benefit of the crew and passengers alike!

FBW

verticalhold

5th Dec 2006, 10:16

Came back to this thread after a very recent experience which has caused me a great deal of concern and I would value cc opinions on it. I'm sure that what I experienced was very illegal, but I can't find a reference.

Positioning on a low cost no seat allocated flight. Checked in first so got the best boarding card there is for this firm. When I got on the aircraft I was comfortably esconced in row 1 right by the front door, stacks of leg room, window seat, good book, someone else doing the driving and pretty ladies to sell me coffee, bliss.

The care bears were loading a carry on pax. The lady concerned had a compound fracture of the left femur and was in plaster. Myself and the two other blokes in row one were asked to move so that the lady, her daughter and grand daughter could be put in row one.

What worried me was that the seat fit in this particular aircraft meant that the broken leg extended to part way across the forward door, and that although there were crew positioned there the child was an infant and would be incapable of operating the door.

I seem to remember from a very long time ago that class 1 emergency exits must not be blocked and should also only be occupied by able bodied pax. Can anyone confirm this for me. I have written expressing deep concern to the airline concerned but have not yet had a reply (actually from past experience with them I hold out no hope) The lady with the broken leg was in a great deal of discomfort and unfortunatley due to her size and injury found moving without assistance very difficult. Advice/flaming/ criticism gladly recieved.

VH

sinala1

5th Dec 2006, 10:51

Hi VerticalHold,

I am going to have to make a few presumptions to answer your question, so those presumptions will be that you were flying on either a B737 or A320 with no fwd bulkhead seperating seats 1ABC from the crew jumpseat and L1 door, and also will presume that you were sitting in 1A before being asked to move.

I flew in the UK Long Haul and currently fly for a short haul carrier in Australia. Both airlines (and all around the world, as far as I am aware) have regulations in place that state ONLY Able Bodied Pax should sit in any seats adjacent to an exit - so on the with my company on the B737-800 that is 1ABC and 14ABCDEF 15ABCDEF. 1DEF do not count as they are behind a bulkhead and not directly adjacent to an exit. There is also an age limit on people sitting in exit rows - I believe it is 15 years or older in Australia (subject to checking my manuals! :O )

If this situation occured on my flight, best possible scenario would be lady with injured leg sitting in 1D (extra leg room, aisle seat so she can move leg into/out of aisle as need be, close to toilet, close to galley so crew can assist etc - but NOT in an exit row) and travelling companions in 1E and 1F.

Sounds like some serious breaches of policy going on here, if I have made correct presumptions - and my apologies if I have made incorrect presumptions! :O :ok:

Getoutofmygalley

5th Dec 2006, 10:58

If the pax was flying easyJet, she would have been able to sit in 1E or 1F only on the front row and the child would have to have been in 1E or 1F as well as 1D (along with 1ABC) are regarded as ABP seats only.

Personally, with a femur in plaster I would have seated the lady in row 2 so that she could have had her leg up (provided seats were available). We have a rule at easyJet that pax with injuries where legs are in plaster might require the pax to pay for an extra seat (or 2) so that they can sit comfortably for the duration of the flight - this shouldn't be an issue as the pax would hopefully be able to claim the extra fares back on their travel insurance (assuming they bought some in the first place :} )

verticalhold

5th Dec 2006, 11:11

Sinala1;

You presume perfectly the A/C layout. Getoutofmygalley rules are sometimes bent in the interests of humanity. Unfortunately in this case I believe the CC were under pressure and did the best they could. Sadly in their hurry, late away despatch pressure etc they made a wrong move.

Had I been in the front seat of the AC and seen the condition of the passenger I might have refused to carry her. She was a very ill lady.

VH

Getoutofmygalley

5th Dec 2006, 11:36

Verticalhold, please check your pm's :ok:

verticalhold

5th Dec 2006, 11:58

Goomg;

Checked and responded. I did however forget to mention that the flight was full. Not a spare seat in the house!

VH

HZ123

5th Dec 2006, 14:45

I have been working at LGW for the last 10 weeks and i have to say that I am concerned with the number of aircraft / airlines with rear doors open and crew visible working in the galley and no steps attached just the tape across. For any of you CC working with the doors open if you trip and fall you may die. If you survive you will lose a percentage of any claim you make because you were not paying due attention to the existant risks.

flybywire

5th Dec 2006, 16:56

HZ123 it's a very sore point the one you are raising. Unfortunately different airlines have different procedures in place, which end up confusing ground staff. My airline has a "no steps/jetty no doors open" policy and I completely agree with it. We had a couple of accidents before the sop were changed and it was not fun for the crew involved.

However we also have the silly rule that if steps are in place at the back, whatever the situation or phase of turnaround, the rear door must be open anyway. Not clever when it's 2*C, with strong gales and persistent rain entering the cabin making us all freeze and making the galley surfaces really slippery!! Big hazard in more than one way, in my opinion.:=

6chimes

13th Dec 2006, 21:38

A once heard a tale where a member of crew went to close the rear door of a 757 in the rain. You guessed it, they slipped on the metal plate and went straight out and landed on the tarmac, result; Broken pelvis, long stay in hospital and the end of a flying career.

6

Airbourne-Adamski

27th Feb 2007, 16:45

I know a crew member from Air France was killed when she fell out the door, The steps were taken away without her knowing, she turned round and well I say no more.

What I will say is at easyjet when doors open and steps in place, they can not be removed until the crew member as passed a permit to remove steps form for that particular door to the ramp staff who are at the top of the steps. Then the door has to be closed straight away, then steps removed.

flyblue

27th Feb 2007, 23:14

at easyjet when doors open and steps in place, they can not be removed until the crew member as passed a permit to remove steps form for that particular door to the ramp staff who are at the top of the steps
The procedure was the same at AF when the accident happened. But as it appeared, it was not enough to keep human error away. To increase safety, a new type of stairs were introduced. Now there are 2 gates blocking access to the stairs, both on top and bottom, to prevent use in unsafe condition (ie if the gate is open, the operator will know that he doesn't have the permission to move them yet).

Airbourne-Adamski

1st Mar 2007, 13:17

To increase safety, a new type of stairs were introduced. Now there are 2 gates blocking access to the stairs, both on top and bottom, to prevent use in unsafe condition (ie if the gate is open, the operator will know that he doesn't have the permission to move them yet).

Interesting proceedure, I belive I have seen those steps in CDG but they work with our proceedure on removing steps.

Is this proceedure just AF?

oldflyboy

2nd Mar 2007, 08:22

I remember a female Purser based at BHX who incorrectly tried to close the front door of a 737 in DUS, leaned out too far and disappeared from view! Luckily the engineer on his headset was underneath the aircraft and was able to partially break her fall. Both survived, she was off work for several months but returned to flying and is now happily retired.

Its not just about having the correct SOP's it's also about making sure you follow them. Remember, 1 hand for the aircraft, 1 hand for yourself guys!

Safe Flying

shaheen

16th Mar 2007, 07:46

this capt should have chkd with ground maint
and you should have filed a report

Airbourne-Adamski

16th Mar 2007, 17:19

shaheen

this capt should have chkd with ground maint
and you should have filed a report

Sorry what was this coment regarding

aviator84

13th Jul 2007, 04:28

Okay, im just wondering what any of your views are on this potentially fatal accident, i wont mention the airline inolved as i would not like like this to come back on me in any way,last year we where asked to do a Manual pax carry off on a ***JET 757,we came in on the R2 door next to the wing as Caterers had been on the front R1 door,we had the ambi lined up and the hostie opened the door and told us she wouldnt have us taking the pax off at this door, why i dont know but she seemed in a bad mood at this time,we questioned this as the passenger who was fully disabled from the legs below was close to this door and to cause the passenger no fuss and any uncomfort this was obviously the best choice rather than trying to to take him down the narrow aisle, after a bit of arguing back and forth she was adamant she wanted us to move to the front, further delaying the aircrafts boarding and our own departure as we had other passengers to attend to, we lined the ambi up at the front and raised the cab! The next thing the door gets flung open carelessly and the escape shoot drops out onto our cab hissing away, teh enginerr commented that at least a foot or more of extension and the shoot would have deployed, firing me and my collegues out the back from which we where around 20 odd ft in the air at this point, as you can clearly see the shoot handle is in the "Armed Postion" showing a lack of attention and care on the lady's part from which this could have turned out to be a fatal accident. Im just wondering if anything else like this has happend to anyone out there?, a few people have been killed over the years here in incidents like this, it just shows how easily things can go wrong.
http://shutter03.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/10/005/33/BB/87/1C/uSJ1kiMoq5OBWkdTbFUTsu1y5YppGFd201F4.jpg
http://shutter09.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/05/004/77/BF/78/7D/DXdlJKBfeSqeYvbDVaqoMdH1al8zNBby01F4.jpg
http://shutter01.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/10/007/7D/9F/BB/89/PAOLukmVjwkU-1RS2IDHtJ1WcsYplaYz018C.jpg

737319320321

13th Jul 2007, 21:39

Airlines have different proceedures regarding this. But most British Airlines have the policy that if there are no jetty or steps in place then the door must not be opened. Also usually 1 member of crew must be manning each set of doors. so there would be no excuse for any passengers falling out of this if the door was opened, for what ever reason.

h73kr

13th Jul 2007, 22:00

Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves. A few months ago was working a very 'tech.' 76. One of the other many engineers was working right next to the mid door just fwd of the wing, pulling up the galley floor covering. He was standing, pulling it towards the open (and of course high) open door above the concrete pan! I couldn't beleive it, if the flooring had suddenly 'given', as they often do where water has migrated under the covering, he would have fallen backwards out of the open door to certain injury / death. I spoke to him about it, he wasn't bothered! I single handedly in Middle Eastern heat dragged a stand across the pan and positioned it by the door. He didn't even thank me, but I felt better for doing it. :ugh:

Airbourne-Adamski

20th Jul 2007, 15:49

Mr Brave Engineer, Whatever :ugh:

At easy doors without steps must be closed. Only if stuck on stand with big slot and pax aboard sweating to death do we crack open a door with no steps, but there must be a crew member by that door.

dscartwright

30th Jul 2007, 21:36

>At easy doors without steps must be closed.

That was my experience on Saturday morning when I got back as SLF from IBZ to STN. Two sets of steps approached; the front set got attached, and although the cabin crew were watching intently through the window in the back door, the rear steps seemed to stop five feet away and came no nearer. So the door stayed closed and we all got off through the front door.

DC

HZ123

2nd Sep 2007, 11:18

There is an airline at SEN that commit this fault nearly every day on the RJ100/146. CC habitually open / close the door without any jetty / steps in place and also reach out of the forward door to close it after the airstairs are activated. Perhaps if someone reads this and knows the CC they make them aware of these concerns. Someone is going to get hurt otherwise, of that I am certain.

rowone

13th Sep 2007, 15:01

and long may it continue!:)

FlyingBoi

9th Nov 2007, 13:56

At my airline, our SOP is that you open door as soon as seatbelt sign is off. I understand that this can be dangerous but stems from the fact that we operate 2 different types of jet, one of which is the 146/rj .
This is one of the resons for the policy as at most airports their steps cannot be attatched untill the door has been opened fully, hence the reason for this policy. I imagine as they leave the fleet the policy may change.

I would like to point out that included in the sop is that a crew member has to be stationed at said open door at all times.

FCAcrewboy

18th Feb 2008, 09:36

At my Airline there is a cross-checking procedure in place to check the doors are armed/disarmed...this is then past on to the Supervisor. This is almost faultless in preventing incidents occuring.

When it comes to opening doors, All crew including number 2's have to ask the permission of the Supervisor. The SOP is to bring the yellow strap across to allow crew & passengers to now that the door is open. Off course doors are not ment to be opened without steps/airbrigde but this is not always possible with caterers & ambi-lifts coming & going...

From what i know there has been little incidents at my airline, the odd slide blowing here & there...:ok:

joeflyguy

17th Mar 2008, 00:40

I thought SOP as suggested by the likes of FAA and individual country's CAA was that doors must not be disarmed after landing and taxi until another viable means of exit from the A/C is present. ie. there MUST be an airbridge or steps AT the exit before it may be disarmed

I know that may be the policy at our lil ole airline but invariably doors are disarmed immediately engines shutdown and seatbelt sign off. No airbridge within cooey of door.

sebby

17th Mar 2008, 02:59

As far as im aware the intended gate must be insight and free of aircraft and that is when the doors can be disarmed. This is at the discretion of the Pilots. Seatbelt sign can not be switched off until doors have been confirmed Disarmed and crosschecked.

This is the procedure for my company.

joeflyguy

19th Mar 2008, 05:50

Obviously different procedures for diff airlines. I know in NZ CAA has a strong influence on procedure and they are generally as stated above.

Thanks.

vixxys

16th May 2008, 18:08

Hi all this is my 1st post here.After reading alot of the issues that can take place I have to say it is concerning,and I do hope that the very nervous/scared flyers DO NOT read this forum!:)I totally appreciate that in every work situation not just yours that there are people who make the job uncomfortable.Also that it can make it difficult to confront them.

All I ask is that you DO confront these people (captains ect) If not for your own safety but us passengers onboard.If you really have to imagine that a member of your family are onboard mum,dad,sister,brother.

If that was the case wouldnt you like to think that there would be someone cc who would raise these issues to ensure the safety of themselves and the passengers?

The captain of the flight can look down on you all he/she likes,if they would like to trade places and do the real HARD work,upfront like you all do then I for one would love to see their people skills!

Be safe.
Vix:D