View Full Version : Canada considering no-tender Chinooks, C-130J

5th Oct 2005, 14:40

Apparently the Liberals have not changed their ways from the Sea King replacement fiasco... still mishandling procurement (although in a different way this time)

5th Oct 2005, 19:56
can you post the text on here, cant seem to access the site. cheers

5th Oct 2005, 23:03
MPs blast `closed-door' plan to buy military hardware

Bruce Cameron-Smith, Toronto Star, Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWA—Canada's military is set to buy new Chinook helicopters and Hercules transport aircraft without seeking competitive bids, a move that has opposition MPs crying foul.

Defence Minister Bill Graham has been engaged in high-level lobbying in recent days to win the support of senior decision-makers, including Prime Minister Paul Martin, sources say.

In those discussions, military brass are pitching a plan to issue "sole source" contracts for the new fleets of aircraft — purchases worth hundreds of millions of dollars — to avoid a drawn-out tendering process.

And they're pushing ahead with the plan even though commanders have yet to finish their so-called capabilities paper, a document outlining what equipment the military needs to fulfil missions around the globe.

That research won't be released until sometime around Christmas.

Conservative MP Gordon O'Connor (Carleton-Mississippi Mills) accused Graham of planning big-ticket military purchases "behind closed doors."

"Who will benefit financially as the government skirts the checks and balances of competition?" O'Connor asked in the House of Commons yesterday. Military officials have refused to comment on the proposed purchase.

NDP MP Bill Blaikie (Elmwood-Transcona) called on Graham to appear before the Commons' defence committee to explain his purchase plans.

"If there's any truth to this, Graham should be straightforward about it...he should `fess up, come before the committee and say this is why we're doing it," Blaikie said.

With Canada set to send an additional 1,300 extra troops to Afghanistan in February, the defence department has its eyes set on the newer version of the Hercules, the C-130J, which can fly faster, further and haul more cargo.

In a separate plan, the military has gone to Treasury Board seeking approval to buy equipment for Canada's mission in Afghanistan, including armoured vehicles. That too raised hackles on Parliament Hill, with MPs suggesting the troops already in Afghanistan were sent without adequate gear.

5th Oct 2005, 23:20
Well they are both extremely capable and proven platforms........so maybe money is being well spent.......unlike our procurement track record:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Ian Corrigible
6th Oct 2005, 00:52
MarkD -

'Course, it was Mulroney's Conservative government that left the CAF with no heavylift helo assets by selling off the remaining CH-147s to the Dutch. As in the UK, it doesn't really seem to matter who's in power, short-term decisions are always being made to the detriment of the military.

The real Canadian screw-up in this instance seems to be that this procurement was left so late, despite the long-running plans for the Afghan deployment.


6th Oct 2005, 08:43
Now just how many competitors are there for the provision of new Chinooks and Herc's?

6th Oct 2005, 19:30
What about C17?

I've heard that a C17 costs roughly 3 times as much as a C130J but has roughly 5 times the payload on a strategic (3-4K nm) lift. Anyone know if this is true. If the numbers are anywhere in that ballpark, I cannot see why we would buy C130J when our residual fleet of C130H and C27 would provide plenty of tactical/theatre airlift capability. In case no one noticed, Canada is a long way from the trouble spots. If we want to keep things that way, a much heavier emphasis on strategic lift (air and sea) is needed.

As for the ch47; seems to me we need an ability to move an M777 in an Afghan summer. Cormorant can do that as well (just), but MHP cannot. Flagrant politics and some really poor staff work means that the MHP has not been specified to fully support land operations, so we're destined to buy ANOTHER helicopter (version or type) with the ensuing logistic and training costs, not to mention loss of flexibility (2 small fleets instead of one larger fleet). All of this was predictable, but the glacial workings of DND (and flagrant manipulation to protect the Lieberals) mean that we will be buying the kit too late to get the job done. If you want to see how Canada buys military equipment, just look at the non-competitive award of $750m to Oerlikon to rehouse ADATS and add some gucci comms. For which we'll get a top heavy, vulnerable vehicle that is a second rate AD, DFS and intelligence platform. But Oerlikon is in Quebec, and the Lieberals need to get some hero points here fast.