Al-Qa'eda gets the RAF's message

[Lyneham Lad]

In today's Daily Telegraph:-

Al-Qa'eda gets the RAF's message
By Thomas Harding
(Filed: 05/10/2005)

For a while, the 50 al-Qa'eda terrorists sheltering in a building deep in the Hindu Kush must have thought they were safe.

They had held off the Australian SAS for several hours, watching rockets and bombs drop around them, seemingly without much effect. Their confidence, however, was misplaced and short-lived.

Among their number, intelligence sources believe, was an influential al-Qa'eda figure. He was probably congratulating himself on his lucky escape just as 1,000lb of high explosive packed into an enhanced paveway bomb vaporised the building.

For a millisecond, before they were wiped out, the insurgents discovered the true meaning of the accuracy of GPS (global positioning system) guided weapons. The sortie was one of the biggest successes for the six GR7A Harriers stationed in Kandahar, where they support the Americans operating against Taliban and al-Qa'eda in the south and east of Afghanistan.

"Because we have bombed the enemy so effectively over a length of time people on the ground know that if they hear us then they are in trouble," said Wing Commander Bruce Hedley, the commanding officer of No 3 Squadron RAF.

His small force provides a "tremendous punch", flying over all of Afghanistan taking reconnaissance pictures and providing 24-hour firepower "whenever anyone shouts, 'I'm in trouble.' "

No 3 Sqn will also help British forces when they deploy to the volatile region early next year, part of a push to harry insurgents.

Two Harriers were patrolling over Uruzgan province in central Afghanistan when they spotted activity outside a cave system two weeks ago. Australian special forces were sent in and the insurgents fled. Unusually, they withdrew fighting, suggesting they were protecting a senior commander.

As the Australian SAS closed in, the Harriers launched a low-level rocket attack and followed up with a paveway bomb into a field nearby to let the terrorists know "we meant business" and give them the chance to surrender.

The message did not get through and they "got the second bomb". There were no survivors.

[SASless]

As the Australian SAS closed in, the Harriers launched a low-level rocket attack and followed up with a paveway bomb into a field nearby to let the terrorists know "we meant business" and give them the chance to surrender.

Just put the bomb in their turban and call it message delivered!

"Knock! Knock!" "You're Outta Here!"

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

It makes nice reading.

But they've just recruited a hundred more terrorists.

This explains why

1. We will never win
2. The Americans bomb the Infant Schools and Wedding Receptions

I can hear OC 3 Sqn speaking, but I can see a Police Chief announcing that a terrorist has been shot six times in the head on the London Underground.

[Flap62]

The man shot on the underground was found to be innocent, the people at wedding parties etc are "pressumed" to be innocent. By implication, you think the targets in this case were innocent - and your proof is?

[Jackonicko]

I'm happy to assume that the Harrier blokes did a great professional job, and that they killed genuinely evil men who represented a real danger to us and our allies.

I will not lose one second's sleep over their fate.

I'm impressed that they chose to deliver a 'warning shot' to give the insurgents a chance to surrender. I'm kind of pleased that they didn't avail themselves of this opportunity, since I'm happier to see Islamist terrorists dead than captured, causing us difficulties as we struggle to balance our responsibilities and duties with the need to extract int and the natural desire for revenge.

BUT

SirP's LC is absolutely right. They will be replaced (probably at a ratio of ten to one) and this kind of breathlessly enthusiastic and triumphalist coverage will serve only to increase the danger to Britain, and to harden moderate Islamic attitudes against us.

It also seems more Sun-like than I'd expect from a supposedly serious and intelligent broadsheet, but then the Telegraph's defence coverage has gone terribly 'Beano' since Mick Smith left.

[JNo]

***Rant on***

Innocent?? I think a major point that everyone seems to be forgetting is the man shot by Police on the underground may have been innocent of terrorism , but was working in Britain illegally after staying on after his visa had run out – making him a criminal. His Brazilian family then appear over here and are incensed that he could ever have been harmed. Having personally lived in Sao Paulo off and on over the last few decades, the Police regularly (well at least monthly…) round up and kill upwards of 30 people a night for even the slightest of crimes (sleeping in the street etc) to which there is never a comeuppance. I have no sympathy for a man stealing money out of this country or his whinging family.

***Rant off***

Right, where were we??

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I rub my hands with glee at the fire storm that post will ignite JNo:uhoh:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[maxburner]

So JNo, it's now ok for our police to be judge, jury and executioner is it? Where does that appear in law? When did Parliament debate that one? Where was I when the vote was taken? Overstaying a visa has never been punishable by death - except in Blair's Britain.

Jackoniko:

Well put.

[Jackonicko]

The right wing tw@ts who are comfortable with vigilante justice sicken and disgust me, whether they're defending wicked pond life like Tony Martin or the unprofessional policemen who effectively executed a man who was innocent of any SERIOUS crime and who was, by all accounts, an asset to this country and his community.

JNo,

You need to loosen your tie, mate, I think you're suffering from restricted circulation above the shoulders.

[Skeleton]

woooahh slow down horsey.. :)

the unprofessional policemen who effectively executed a man who was innocent of any SERIOUS crime and who was, by all accounts, an asset to this country and his community.

1. Its now been proven the policeman were unprofessional has it?

2. Not by all accounts was he an asset but I won't go there. Fact remains he should not have been in this country. No not a serious crime but still a crime.

[soddim]

One need look no further than this forum - not even in Jet Blast - to see how inflamed emotions are over both immigration and terrorism.

I fear our moderate law-abiding country that valued free speech and justice for all has gone.

So how do we get it back?

[MostlyHarmless]

...and followed up with a paveway bomb into a field nearby to let the...

Is that another way of saying 1000' @ 6 :E

[Flap62]

Have to say that a couple of hundred thousand pounds spent on a warning shot seems like a huge waste of money to me.

Could just be that the cement heads still can't bomb even with GPS and a spot!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

lol, combine this with the typhoon gun thread on the warning shot issue! Surely a crv or 2 through the roof would have been warning enough?!

[The Gorilla]

We have been here before with an emotional thread concerning the Brazilian. A thread which in the end had to be locked and showed this forum in a very poor light.

Please let us not go there again eh?

:(

[Jackonicko]

"Fact remains he should not have been in this country."

Call me a pinko, but I'd rather have decent folk who make a contribution to our society living here than right wing knuckleheads who don't share the traditional British virtues of tolerance and openness, and who can't and won't extend the hand of friendship and welcome to those who do us the huge compliment of wanting to come and participate in British society.....

A hard working Brazilian bloke is likely to make more of a contribution than some slack-jawed dole-scroungin Essex Chav, however 'British' the latter might be.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Jackonico

The trouble with the Bleeding Hearts Brigade on this and other fora is that they can never come up with an answer to the question: "if you were an armed policeman tracking a suspected suicide bomber who entered a crowded public space and you were instructed to apprehend him, how would YOU set about it? Walk up to him, identify yourself as a policman, and ask him to raise his hands so that you can carry out a body search?" BOOM!

[Pontius Navigator]

And you all believed the Daily Torygraph?

Was this a different incident from the one in the RAF News? The warning shot was a CRV-7. When that did not have the desired effect he let them have two pods. Hardly hundreds of thousands of pounds.

The only issue I have is the release of name and photo of the pilot. Me? I would prefer the grey suit and dark shades.

[Lyneham Lad]

Well, I have to say I am disappointed in 'PPruners'. I put the DT article on the forum in the expectation that it might trigger a reasoned debate about the merits of the operation in Afghanistan, the role of the GR7 and the RAF in general and the likelyhood that our Tone is going to extend the UK's presence there.

I did not expect it to degenerate into hard-right -v- pro-immigration slanging match. Very distasteful and unworthy.

Can we now start the reasoned debate.....please?

[PPRuNe Pop]

I agree. Please keep the topic on track gentlemann - and ladies. These diversions lead to the wrong kind of debate - as they always do.

[caspertheghost]

Pontious,
It was a different attack to the one you read about earlier, everything got a little bit hectic out here around the election period. All things considered it was pretty accurate reporting in the newspapers.

[Jackonicko]

Flatus

The trouble with the 'Apologists for murder Brigade' on this and other fora is that they can never come up with an answer to the question: "if this man really was a suspected suicide bomber, then why was he allowed to make a bus journey, and why was he not apprehended in the open, where whatever he had on him would have presented less of a danger to the public?" Nor to the question as to why this Brazilian was mistaken for an Islamist terrorist? (Sorry, but he was brown and lived in the wrong building does not excuse this kind of crass incompetence). Nor to the question as to who approved a policy that allowed these half wits to dispense with the procedure of issuing a warning before opening fire, nor to the question about what safeguards are in place to protect the public from a police force that has plenty of 'previous' when it comes to indiscriminate gunplay and the murder of entirely innocent passers by.

[soddim]

I suspect that the fairly recent revelations by an ex-SAS chap who trained the armed police have some relevance. He described many of them as far too gung ho and psychologically and physically unfit for the job. He also pointed out that the SAS were not allowed to fail them.

It might also be relevant that an earlier interception was not made apparently because the armed response unit that these cowboys belonged to was not yet in place to screw things up.

[pr00ne]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track……………………………….

How were the insurgents supposed to differentiate the “warning” bomb into an adjacent field from all of the “Rockets and bombs exploding around them” that they supposedly sat and watched as they held off the Aussie SAS for “several hours”?

The whole article reeks of a 1960’s Commando comic!
(Excellent value for 6d I thought)

[Climebear]

pr00ne

The whole article reeks of a 1960’s Commando comic!

Please lets bring this up to date - I remember that Commando comic in the 1970's was 25p!

[pr00ne]

FIVE shillings? Outrageous!


Wagon wheels were bigger then too.................................

[Pontius Navigator]

Casper, thanks for that.

I was reflecting on an earlier operation where we did not drop weapons and that makes an interesting contrast.

Until weapons are actually dropped the enemy does not know what to expect - shock and awe - once the action starts it is accepted that a population soon becomes inured to the violent and life resumes as normal - the blitz - Serbia etc.

The 1 000lb demo is 'not in my backyard' and this easily ignored. They have had 25 years of violence and near misses. Perhaps more effective after 25 years of violence is a simple strike from the Gods and leave it at that.

[Red Line Entry]

Noticed in WH Smiths today that Commando mags are now £1 each! (I'm of the 5p each era). The language inside hasn't been brought up to date with yoofspeak I'm pleased to report!

[Navaleye]

Pr00ne is right; all confectionary products were bigger in the 60s (or maybe my hands were smaller :confused: ) As for Commando is was a damn fine publication scoring very highly alongside other equally fine publications such as Warlord and Battle.

[BEagle]

Commando? Good grief, no, 'Air Ace Picture Library' at 1/- each were the best! Kingstons on the bridge in Taunton used to sell them, as well as model aircraft etc. But Kingston was a shrewd old chap as he also sold things like 'Parade' and 'Health and Efficiency' which, whilst being something of a mystery to a 10 year old, were like gold dust at boarding school a few years later...

However, I find it hard to feel much sympathy for the elimination of a cave full of Al Q'aeda terrorists.

[alemaobaiano]

Sorry mods, I'm straying off topic so feel free to junk it, but this sort of rubbish can't be allowed to pass unanswered

Having personally lived in Sao Paulo off and on over the last few decades, the Police regularly (well at least monthly…) round up and kill upwards of 30 people a night for even the slightest of crimes (sleeping in the street etc) to which there is never a comeuppance.

Having personally lived in São Paulo permanently for the last four years I can tell you that this is complete b:mad:cks in every respect.

JNo, go and have a beer or something.

[JNo]

You can't be watching too much news then can you.

"...A study by the Institute for Religious Studies (ISER) concluded that 10 percent of all Rio de Janeiro homicides were civilians killed by police. The ISER study also documented that in a sample of 697 cases of fatal police shootings between 1993 and 1996, Rio de Janeiro police officers rarely fired to immobilize rather than kill; half of the victims were killed with four or more bullets, and the majority of victims were shot in either the shoulders or the head. Forty cases clearly demonstrated execution-style deaths, where victims were first immobilized and then shot at close range. Victims were generally young, black, and without criminal records. Human rights groups continued to criticize "bravery" awards conferred by the Rio de Janeiro authorities which have had the effect of encouraging police to use excessive force..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4415775.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1415178.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4403221.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/886661.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/886661.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3593920.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3766779.stm

http://newsfromrussia.com/society/2005/08/29/61911.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7358148/

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D54BFCC7-699B-489D-BB85-E372191FCDE8.htm

http://www.cabarfeidh.com/2005/08/hell-yeah-let-brazilian-police.html

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-04/05/content_431284.htm


Oh, and courtesy of Private Eye; "30 - the number of hours it took the Brazilian Government to respond to their citizen's death in London. 30 - the number of civilians shot dead in one day by Brazilian police in a crackdown on drugs in a city slum last month."

It's amazing how much you can pick up with one 5 minute search. Alemaobaiano, I suggest you take your head out of....er....the sand.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Jackonicko

The questions you ask are, I expect, the very ones to which the IPCC is trying to find an answer. I suspect the answers may include cumbersome RoE and Release Procedures for your first question, or a good old-fashioned cock-up.

T o your second question I expect the "half-wits" had sufficient wits to realise that any sort of "warning" issued would trigger the very event they were trying to prevent.

All is not perfect, but it seems to me that the "bleeding hearts" really believe that we should give up policing suicidal terrorism. Which would signal the collapse of the State.

Could you now please answer my question? What would you have done if you were one of the "half wits"?

[Jackonicko]

Certainly.

If I were so half witted that I couldn't tell the difference between a Latino and an Arab or a Pakistani, then I'd have made absolutely sure that my suspect did not get on to a bus, and if I failed to do that then I'd certainly have prevented him going into an underground station, and if I failed to do that then I wouldn't have let him get on a tube train.

And since he was wearing clothes that could not have covered a bomb, and since he was carrying nothing more dangerous than a free paper, and since I'd been observing him for long enough to see if he had detonators concealed in his hand, I don't think I'd have felt it necessary to murder him.

And were I in command of these half wits I wouldn't have allowed all the bulls.hit about 'vaulting ticket barriers', 'big bulky jackets' and ignoring warnings to go unchallenged, and to appear to have come from official sources.

And I wouldn't have used PCs who were "far too gung ho and psychologically and physically unfit for the job", who the SAS were not allowed to fail.

Now if he had been the right ethnic profile, had he had a rucksack or a bulky jacket, had he been acting remotely suspiciously, then maybe I would agree that shooting him was the best option. But given the circumstances, it was as disgraceful a f*** up as the shooting of Waldorf was.

[Lafyar Cokov]

part of a push to harry insurgents.

Harry Insurgents - surely now we know his name we can shoot him too!!!
;)

[Onan the Clumsy]

Does that mean that I shouldn't ask if harry insurgents is a previously unheard of Royal?




oh bugger, a thread with two pages :(

[alemaobaiano]

JNo, strangely I do watch the news, here in Brazil, and I don't have my head in the sand, or anywhere else for that matter.

I didn't claim that this country is free of crime, but you stated that the police round up and execute 30 people every night in São Paulo with impunity. Last time I looked Rio de Janeiro was a different city. Now you are quoting 10 year old statistics to show your "local" knowledge.

Your links cover three recent cases, all of which have seen the guilty officers arrested, a prison riot where inmates killed inmates and Carandiru, which is from 1992 and was very much down to the state government at the time.

As for your Private Eye quote, wrong as usual. It wasn't a police crackdown, it was corrupt cops fighting for control of drugs, in Rio de Janeiro, not São Paulo.

It's not quite what you said in your original post is it?

It's amazing what you can discover if you spend a little more than 5 minutes searching, like facts maybe. But why spoil a good rant with facts?

[JNo]

My point was aimed at the Brazilian police force as a whole not specifically SP Pol but since you mentioned it...

They've been 442 fatal police shootings in SP since 2002.

That works out a one police killing every 2.5 days! These statistics cover less than 11% of the national population of 185 million. SP isn't even the worst place in Brasil for such killings either.

I'd hardly say it's uncommon would you? Pretty recent as well wouldn't you say?

Where are your facts? Keep pitching them down and I'll keep knocking them to the boundary.

[mystic_meg]

...in the blue corner - alemaobaiano, and in the red corner - JNo
....let's see who can p*ss the furthest, or - alternatively LETS GET THE THREAD BACK ON TOPIC!!:mad:

[JNo]

point taken :rolleyes:

[alemaobaiano]

That's probably a good idea :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

In Iraq the Australian SAS were involved in a scenario with similarities to the above. A patrol secured an Iraqi Mig base and encircled the resistance into a cement works, offering a surrender option. When the deadline passed they called in American F14's to make supersonic passes- after failing to break the sound barrier on the first, success occurred on the second, with the desired affect. The Iraqis surrendered.

Fair chance the SAS co-ordinated the RAF airstrike and pushed for the warning shots. SAS compassion in their last three conflicts is well documented in a recently released book The Amazing SAS.

The recent second deployment seems busy- in the field for just a few weeks and have been in the thick of it on a number of occassions with two minor casualties.

[Daedal_oz]

Fair chance the SAS co-ordinated the RAF airstrike and pushed for the warning shots. SAS compassion in their last three conflicts is well documented ...

As General Melchett once said: "I've never been too sure about you trenchy type fellows. I've always felt that there was a little too much of the nappy hair-wearing, I'd rather have a cup of tea than charge stark naked at Gerry [Osama] about you."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/blackadder/epguide/images/four_goodbye.jpg