Fear of heights?

[t'aint natural]

I don’t like flying high in a helicopter. Don’t feel comfortable with it. Anything above 3000 feet gives me the willies. I’ve got no such problem with fixed-wing… just helicopters.. .I thought it was just me, until I read the following in a book about Stanley Hiller. It describes an altitude record set by Terry Clark, who flew a Hiller 12E to 27,500 feet in 1983. It says:. .‘There is an odd phenomenon in helicopter flight whereby the floor beneath one’s feet appears to shrink as one climbs higher. Five miles up, Clark’s perch offered little more psychological support than a postage stamp. He later characterized this unusual flight as “harder than any mission I flew in Vietnam”.. .Is this a recognised phenomenon? How many people feel the same way?

[Nick Lappos]

As a candidate at Ft. Wolters, I took a Bell OH-13 to 12,000 feet, doors off in the summer, and was so scared as the aircraft shrank that I stopped climbing purely from fright, gently autorotated back down. I felt as if I was on a tight-rope, and could flip over if anything upset me! The open door out my left shoulder was awesome.

Since then, no problem, been to 20000 several times.

[Scattercat]

Maybe it's because from 12,000 ft you'll have several minutes to know about it when the blades fall off, or the main trannie' fails? I do find that the larger the aircraft, the better off I feel at altitude.

[Nick Lappos]

Scattercat,

The fear was not based on anything so reasonable. I was too dumb to think that hard about it!

[sprocket]

Speaking as a pax, I dont feel comfortable flying high (AGL) in a chopper either, unless I'm occupied with track/balance equipment or t/shooting some sort of fault thus keeping me distracted from dwelling on it.. .If the helo has little or no airspeed at altitude then I start to sweat, no matter what I'm doing.

The reasons for the scary sensation must be to do with some sort of yet un-named phobia maybe?

[helimuster]

Interesting question. I have come across a few pilots, 10000H+ that have the same sensation. I must admit that 1000H+ later mainly flown 500' to 2000', I am starting to feel a little uneasy climbing above 3000'. Down under, we fly with all doors removed due to the heat factor in the cabin. Could it be an influencing factor? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[chips_with_everything]

What an interesting thread!

I too dislike altitude in helis. Possibly because of a rational fear of Cessna enemas instilled by my teachers, bless 'em.

Doors off, well sort of alright. But very high in a heli is not my very favorite feeling, particularly if it's a CAVU day.

Possibly it's the changed horizon cue that's disturbing. Curved and lower than usual sort of thing.

Then again if the weather is less than perfect I'm perfectly comfy.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[John Eacott]

How things change. The 'height climb' to 10,000ft in a Whirlie 7 was a major exercise during wings training, and took 30 minutes each way, parachute and all. I swear the instructor was more nervous than the stude, but after a quick demo of retreating blade stall (actually a surreptitious kick at the base of the cyclic by the instructor, no way was he going anywhere near such a condition <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) and a long auto down, we tried never to go above 200' agl for the rest of the time in the Andrew.

These days, cruise at 7-10k is commonplace, and all my winter ops are 7-8000, operating from 6000' amsl pads. Doors off ops. are one of my favourites, swanning along with the best view in town (and a decent heater in winter....)

Nervous of heights? Don't look down <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

[Vfrpilotpb]

Two years ago I took a nearly new R22 up to 6000 Ft, not far from the lake District in the UK, the view was stunning and very different from all those training flights,most of the clouds were in the wrong place, and it had a very "erie" (spelling) feeling about it, and funny thing is it seemed much quieter, after a long gentle descent I felt much more at home around the 2000/1500ft area, not been there since!!

[CTD]

t'aint natural, I have developed the same snag. In the past, I had no problem at 10K+, as a matter of fact in Asia I would go up there routinely to escape the 35ºC heat. Nowadays, I just can't do it anymore, and I know a few guys who are the same way. It doesn’t seem to bother me IFR for some reason, only when I look outside. Funny thing is I could spend all day with the door off, hanging out and looking down from 200’. I’m sure that would hurt just as much!

I had a theory that because I had spent so much time looking straight down from the end of a 100-200' string doing precision work, that my butt had become hypersensitive to very small aircraft movements. At altitude, with very little visual reference, I was feeling the ship move, but my eyes weren’t seeing it. I don’t fly much anymore, so I never really dug deep to get an answer.

[sling load]

The lower the better for me too, Ive been to 10000 ft on engine condition checks and IFR flights. IFR no worries, swanning around at slower speeds is altogether different, didn't particularly like it.

Ive had some fixed wing types absolutely wrapped with fear when flying low, they hate it, I love it.

[Devil 49]

I've noticed the floor shrinking too.... .Sure is nice to have some sky between me and the lumpy stuff.. .Secondary observation-If I'm high for speed or fuel considerations, I'm fine. If I'm up there to improve forced landing chances, it's scary-even at night when I can't see the emptiness beneath me...

[Cornish Jack]

T'aint natural et al. .I reckon that this is pretty widespread - certainly used to have the same problem ... above three HUNDRED ft, never mind 3 thousand. The Whirlwind air test height climb was, indeed, not much liked. My old Boss, who had mega hours on hiccopleeters, used to say that the only way he could complete a height climb was to imagine the biggest pair of swept wings in the world attached to the cabin behind him, out of view.. .My worst moment was when one of our brain dead Winch Ops put me over the side on the cable at 1500'. Now I know it was a 30 cwt cable, but it didn't seem that substantial at the time !! The ensuing 'discussion' included some pointers to his likely early demise and the legality of his parents nuptials :)

[RW-1]

I have received the same thing from everyone here where I fly as well, highest reached by any of our CFI's was 7K.

I think it also comes down to the lack of visual clues that give you a little jump. Consider:

R-22 at 500' 75Kias, you look out and feel like you are moving.

Raise alt to 1500': and you feel like you are standing still, even though you are still at 75Kias.

I've been working my altitudes up slowly because it does make me a little jumpy, starting with doors on, then off.

Man, glad someone else brought this topic up! :) . .(Although RW-1 has done aerobatics (fixed wing) in the past, he has an inherant fear of altitude for some strange reason. I think g-d is playing with him.)

[Heli-Ice]

Very interesting thread.

I think that many pilots have now to their relief discovered that they are not all that strange after all. :)

I've been at 5000´ AGL in gusty winds in the H300 and I didn't like it. The floor just seemed to have left my heli when I got up there. 500´- 1500´ AGL are good altitudes and I'd like to fly there somewhere in between.

In my opinion I think its better to be closer to the ground in the event of any kind of emergency such as having to take a **** or maybe a more serious one, like fire. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Heli-Ice

[RW-1]

One things fro sure, us Rotorheads would hate being in a pressurized tube at 37K ....

(Not that we don't have pressurized helis mind you ...)

[Off road]

How interesting...

Most of my flying is done between 500 -1000 agl as there is no reason to go higher and I absolutly love flying helicopters always have done.. .Over the X-mas period I had a two week break from flying and at the first opportunity I had an almost cavok day and thought I'll take up to 1500 feet. It felt very strange like almost uncomfortable although it did go away after a little while.. .It must be the change in perspective that brings this on. Would like to find out what reason behind this is.. .Safe Flying. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[HeliMark]

I can not stand being over 1500agl. The last month I have been doing a lot of mountain stuff, and coming off an 8000' mountain in moderate turbulance. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> Feel like I am just going to turn over and tumble down.

[sling load]

Personally for me, its the lack of speed indication over the ground and the thought that im just that bit further from the ground than I have to be. I thought only a few of us existed. This would make an interesting human factors study of helicopter pilots and their interest in seeing the ground closer to their work place.

[t'aint natural]

Thank you all for these fascinating and informative replies. It's good to know I'm not alone in this.. .I'm not sure that theories about the lack of apparent groundspeed hold good. After all, this phenomenon does not affect me when I'm flying a fixed-wing. I suspect it's something to do with the instability of the helicopter, the feeling that you're balancing on the head of a pin.... .A guy I spoke to last weekend about this says he had an instructor who looked over the side, on one of his early student flights, and said: "We're about four screams up here... go lower."

[RW-1]

I believe it's a valid theory worth looking into.

Along those lines on occassion I can go down the beach at 100 feet or lower, if cruising along the beach at 75-80 Kias at that alt for a while, and you go back up to 500, for a few moments you get the same feeling as if you just shot up to 2000FT.

My CFI agrees with the general concensus. Knowing we may not routinely fly high, it's likely never really been looked at.

I stil have moments when I look down out the door at 500' at some buildings and get a shiver, brrr ...

[sprocket]

I've had many a mustering pilot say that they "can't fly above 50 feet" otherwise they get nosebleed. . .Now I know the real reason! :)

[Steve76]

I managed to fly a robbie over Mt Ruapehu during my training in NZ and distictly remember it taking forever to get to 10K. It was a lot easier climbing to that altitude referencing the volcano than when I climbed to 9,600 last year in the R22. I was doing a ferry from Alice Springs to Katherine and was so bored that I decided to play around with the altitude to find some reasonable tailwind and cooler temps (irrespective of the TAS of course...). Without the doors on you get very tense but it is just a state of mind. I found myself just about crushing the cyclic and had to force myself to relax and concentrate. I discovered on that day that 9600 is where you run into full pitch and full throttle..... :) . .Anyhow, the winds were better at 6000.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It was funny to watch the reactions of the mustering boys. Most have phobias about going over 500 agl and one I know goes everywhere at 200 agl. They were astounded that anyone would even try it. . .In the bigger machines I have no qualms at all with altitude and I take my hat off to the guys who fly paragliders, hanggliders and microlights at high altitude. Now thats crazy. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[helimuster]

Insteresting comments about Paragliders Steve76...considering I have some 400h+ paragliding in the French Alps, I always felt a little uneasy once the mountain proximity departed from below. It was standard practice to take off from 2400 metres height, climb another 1-2000 metres and soar for 2 to 4 hours. Felt pretty vulnerable then when you had some serious emptiness below you....but that was 9 years ago. I think that a little more maturity towards mortality could be the reason behind our shared growing concern towards heights in a helo <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Hughes500]

Know what you mean by the height. I have a problem when taking parachutists up. Its fine at 7/8ooo ft having a chat to the guys standing on your skids. When they jump the aircraft bucks about a bit - then the feeling of being all alone no doors on wondering what is actually holding you up. Feeling goes away once back below 2000ft. I'm glad its not just me. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[sling load]

I reckon there is a good case for a study of this.. .There is a lack of groundspeed reference at 10000, you could be doing 60 knots or 100 kts and it looks the same.

At altitude in the mountains around Indonesia its not a problem, the only thing you notice is the altimeter and the change of vne, t4 etc, but man, try ferrying it over the water at 13000ft, no way, not this little black duck, very uncomfortable.

[Gainesy]

This is a well known phenomena in the aviation medical world (NB I'm not a medic or anything but wrote an article on this once).. .They call it "Dissociative sensations" aka the Break off or Breakaway phenomena. Many of the posts above contain the shrinking floor or balanced on a pin head description. This is what an avmed text book says (in part, it goes on for a good few pages). ."charactaristically likened to the aircraft being balanced on a knife edge or as if on top of a pin. Furthermore their [aircrew] anxiety is potentiated by the thought that the aircraft will topple from this unstable configuration and will fall out of the sky."

"Dissociative sensations are usually short lived and often disppear spontaneously when the pilot directs his attention to some other aspect of the flying task such as cockpit checks, a change of heading or an RT message"

Studies and surveys indicate that about 35% of pilots have experienced it. Fixed wing pilots get it at about 30,000ft and helo mates from 5000 to 10000ft says the book. .[Pg 310, Aviation Medicine, Ernst & Young]

So you're not nuts after all guys, well, maybe slightly loopy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[t'aint natural]

Nice one, Gainsey.. ."Dissociative sensations..." that's crapping yourself, right?

[Weight and Balance]

Interesting to hear from so many people with this fear of heights. Over the years I’ve heard similar comments from many rotary wing pilots, but never from seized-wing types.

I have a slightly different problem. I have a fear of heights that makes it difficult to stand on a chair or climb a ladder, but it has never bothered me when I’m inside a cabin (rotary wing or otherwise). In my youth, I did one parachute job to try to work through this fear, and made a very interesting observation. Sitting on the floor of the Cessna, feet in the breeze at 1500 ft AGL, didn’t bother me at all. Most of the descent was no problem either. But at about 20 ft AGL I realized where I was, and basically flipped out. I can't remember the rest of the descent, and came to in a ball on the field, with the instructor standing over me asking if I was OK.

I saw a similar effect many years later as an FTE operating a winch on the BO105. Standing on the skid for the first part of the flight was nerve wracking, but once we got some altitude my fears went away, and I had no problem concentrating on the tasks at hand. This included a flight to 14,000 ft out of Leadville. I’ll never forget the view on that one.

I also had many flights to 20K ft in BO105s, BKs, and Aerostars. Again, loved the view, and the smooth air, and had no problems. By the way, my father who flew helicopters and fixed wing for many years, had the same fear of heights outside of the cabin. I never got to find out how he felt about parachute jumps. His theory was only crazy people jumped out of airplanes that were still working. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Rob_L]

Top of a height climb in an Enstrom, three abreast with a CAA engineer in the centre seat.

My door pops open, boss to me "You've got to give a months notice"

CAA man unimpressed!!!!!!!!!!

[Weight and Balance]

Rob_L's post brings back a memory from from flight training.

Just after take off in the 150, my door pops open, leading to the following conversation:

Me: MY DOOR'S OPEN!. .Instructor: What are you going to do about it?. .Me: AH, AH, AH.... .Instructor: What are you doing right now?. .Me: Flying the airplane?. .Instructor: Exactly.

[rotorfan]

I know that feeling when I'm way up on a ladder, etc., but not in an aircraft cabin. However, during my basic rotor training, at about 10 hours time, my instructor put us in a OGE hover at about 1000 AGL. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> Most unnerving. Must be the lack of airspeed. It just didn't look right to a plank flyer.

[pilotwolf]

Just to add my 1/2 a euro worth(!)...

I have had similar expereinces to everyone else and when doing some 'mountain' flying in CA I felt distintly uncomfortable when flying across peaks and valleys - one minute you are 500'agl then 1500' - the horizon was very poor that day too and then moment I told my CFI I was feeling a bit 'uncomfortable' it immediately agreed and we returned to the more comfortable 1000' agl over flatter ground! Still after over 5 years and a couple of hundred hours PIC still prefer to fly around at 500 - 1500'!

[zardoz]

As a mere full time passenger, I also find it un-nerving, even though I sit in blissful ignorance of what is keeping us up most of the time. We operate almost exclusively around 800-1000' but on quiet nights, with Thames permission, wander up to 10000' to enjoy the view. Most un-nerving, and I can't wait to get back down.. .Recently watched a new film "Vertical Limits" where a UH1 allegedly lands climbers onto K2 at 26000', all without oxygen!

[Care Bear]

Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.

However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat!!!!!!! Thats something else altogether, its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!

The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?

Fly safely ya alllllll.

[Care Bear]

Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.

However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat **** thats something else altogether. Its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!

The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?

Fly safely ya alllllll.

[On the skids]

I recall flying through the Alps Maritimes from Cannes, heaving the old Robbie up past 6,000 feet (with two up, low RPM horn on a lot) then all of a sudden the ground fell away perhaps 4,000 feet into a valley. I experienced a most unpleasant sensation of floating, out of control. It persisted for quite a long time, and was so strong that i retrospect I think it might have been close to debilitating. I don't know. I couldn't take it down much because we had another ridge to cross, but after that I dumped it way, way down in the Rhone Valley and crept into Valence for a nice cup of tea. Next time, I'm going round the long way.

[voodoo2]

Normal brain response i guess.

I once had to hover an AS350 first at 1,000feet then we moved up to 3,000feet, started to feel a bit uneasy, up to 6,000feet we went,now it didnt feel good at all. Finished at 10,000feet hovering for almost one hour. I was really uncomfortable, and its difficult to hold the aircraft still in a hover at that altitude, looong way to the nearest reference point. We were monitered by a radar and as soon as I started to move they would call up and ask us to hold still. After an hour of this I had a wet grip of the controlls and was really tired(squeeze). We decended down to 3,000feet again for another hover and wouldnt you belive it,it felt comfortable all of a sudden at that altitude. Normaly I fly att 1,000 feet and once you get up there its a whole new world.

[Wooly]

Have to agree on this topic. It happened to me in my early years.

Flying an Army Kiowa on mapping survey over Cape York, FNQ. Dropped off a team and decided to climb to 10,000 on the way back to the other side of the Cape, just to see what it was like. Doors off, got to height and looked down - first time it ever struck me that I was sitting on the edge of a 10,000 foot drop-off <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> !!

Only similar feeling was flying past big Cu build-ups north of Darwin, looking down the side of the wall from 6-7,000. Makes you realise how small you really are.

But then, I'm scared of spiders as well.

[Lefthanddown]

The highest I ever managed in an R22 was FL100 with full throttle height at about 6700ft. It was a very wierd experience taking pitch off the whole way through the rest of the climb to maintain NR.. .I don't rememer being worried about the height but I was Sh**ing myself in case the engine quit.. .I've heard of people going above 20000ft in a Robbo which must take some fairly serious cohones and one of them was a woman!

[sling load]

Left hand down,

FL100? Isn't that where the SR 71s play hide and seek?

[Lefthanddown]

I think that would be FL1000. (though I thought they only got up to approx 85000 ft.. .I would love to see the curvature of the earth sometime but not in a helo! or even a Robbo for that matter.!

[Vfrpilotpb]

I have already posted one reply to ths thread, but upon reading all the others, it seems we all have the same sort of feeling of unease, cos I'm not a trick-cyclist I cannot start to wonder what this affliction is, but is it simply that we have no near objcts to work out our picture, after all even at my mighty FL50 it felt like I was nearer to space than earth, there was nothing except the far of horizon to use as a level for my picture! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Lu Zuckerman]

I have the ladder problem and the fear of falling out of or off of some structure. However when I first started flying in fixed wing as a flight engineer I felt that if the pilots had the gonies to get up front I could man the panel. I had the utmost feeling of safety and would be able to participate in the flight with no feeling of uneasiness. However when I first started to fly in Bell HTL-1s (very early model 47) I was scared sh*****s because of the feeling of being totally exposed to the elements but at the same time not feeling the wind or the rain or the snow. As my flight time started to build in the Bell and our Sikorsky helicopters that feeling went away. However it was replaced by another feeling of uneasiness and I would believe you guys suffer from the same feeling when flying at high altitude. You might attach that feeling to the fear of heights but you might consider this. You are piloting a device made up of thousands of individual parts all flying in formation. These parts are subject to wear, to overstress, faulty manufacture , faulty design and possibly poor maintenance. In the military the poor maintenance never entered into it because I had to maintain whatever I flew in so I made sure it was right. But the wear and overstress were always on my mind. You can get just as dead if you have a structural failure at low altitude and the same at higher altitudes but you have a longer time to contemplate your fate on the way down. This is not offered in a humorous vein as it relates directly to my job in the aircraft industry.

[sling load]

Left hand down,. .in a helo at FL10 it feels like youre at FL1000, well for me anyway. :)

[BTH]

Hello All

Just wanting some advice and/or hints.

I have been flying for nearly 10 years and have over a few thousand hours, however within the last couple of years I haven't been enjoying my flying, because somehow I have gained a fer for heights

Sounds silly, but nearly all of my flying has been low level ie: ag and fire bombing though when I get to ferry back to base and have to climb to over 1000' then I really fear heights and tense up and my heart goes into my mouth when I get hit by a wind gust or turbelence - but as soon as I get below 1000' then I feel comfortable again.

When I was learning to fly all those years ago, it wouldn't bother me going to 3000', but now I start to freak if a job comes up that I have to go up to great heights for a photo shoot etc etc.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as this is greatly affecting my career decisions

Cheers

BT

[cyclic flare]

It must be something to do with the visual references. Everything is so much smaller it makes me feel uncomfortable too above 3000 agl

[Duck Dogers]

Alright you guys...HARDEN THE F*** UP!

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Good on you for bringing it up!

For me, tooling around mountains at 10,000 is no problem.

IFR in a big machine is fine. It's the little buggers at alititude that feels so flimsy and "squirelly". I had the opportunity with an instructor to go up to 10,000 in an R22 - thankfully the winds were too high and we canned it. I KNOW I would have hated it.

FW at FL350 is no problem. You're mainly concentrating on drinking coffee and finding the best winds anyway...

[birrddog]

Duck, I now christen you Duck "Chopper Reid" Dogers.

BTH, as shared by others, you are not alone.

I am not a fan of taking a helicopter above 2000' AGL.. and quite frankly why bother?

As part of my ppl(h) in SA we went to 9000' AGL in a 22 with no doors. (and ground level was ~5200').

The auto down was pretty interesting.

I'll climb for hills and mountains, but other than that, I like seeing the detail on the ground, part of the reason I fly helicopters.

In Fixed wing height doesn't bother me.

Though as Duck says, when I get bothered by the height, I just tell myself to 'Harden the F**k up!'... It does not take the fear away but gets me through ;)

[BTH]

Hello all

Im glad in one way with the previous posts through the merged thread, that I am not alone in fearing heights as a pilot.

So where to from here - any suggestions of professional help or other tips on over-coming this problem ???

Cheers

BT

[HOGE]

While I have no problem flying high in a helicopter, I hate being high up on a building, and don't like looking down. I can't figure it out!

[Shawn Coyle]

My personal survey of pilot friends shows that 80% can't stand heights in buildings, and most won't go up a ladder to their roof.
My experience is that above about 2,000' with the doors off starts to get a bit spooky, and 20,000 AGL in a Gazelle (with doors on, parachute and O2 even) was also getting a bit dicey.
Not sure what it is, but it is prevalent.

[Robbo Jock]

The reason people get scared of heights in buildings, on cliffs or ladders is because of the perspective of the structure disappearing beneath them - look down and you see the building width dwindling; you can feel your height and so on.
In an aircraft, there's a disconnect between you and the ground, so your hind brain can't say "ooooh, that's a long way down". There can obviously still be the fear of being at height ("what if the wing falls off?"), but not necessarily that gut-squirming, visceral, "this is plain wrong" fear of heights.

In a fixed-wing, there's not a huge amount of view outside, yup there are windows but there's also a lot of metal, helping protect our monkey-brain from the feeling that we'll will fall out of the tree. In helicopters, we're generally blessed with stupendous views out of acres of perspex, but as we climb this starts working against us - the acreage in view expands enormously so the seat/floor under us appears to shrink, until we feel we're precariously balanced and our inner chimp starts shrieking at us that the branch we're sitting on is really, really, really thin and likely to break at any moment.

[SASless]

I never had this fear of height in helicopters until after taking up parachute jumping for a hobby. Then it appeared sporadically and without any certain set of circumstances setting it off.

What I descibe it as being is not the fear of height but rather of being afraid of the fall that shall end with a real thump! It is not the fall but the thought of the sudden stop at the end.

While jumping with parachutes attached to your back....one's mindset is there will not be that sudden stop at the bottom as one of the two parachutes is bound to catch you short of that.

As long as you have confidance in your equipment.....then there is piece of mind.

Perhaps it is not a fear of heights but a crisis of confidance we are feeling.

But I do like the concept of the skinny branch and a subtle tie to monkey thinking as Robbo notes.

[MVNH]

Hi BTH
OK, I work in this field and will attempt to provide some help. However, I do this with hesitation... anyway.

You need to determine the cause of this. One option is that it is a pure sensory association of anxiety or fear that you have made at some point. Mostly because of some kind of experience in your past. These sensory associations are purely associative in nature and has no rational base or explanation (well it can have but not necessarily).

Another option (or added to the above) is that as we getting older or having more experience in life we change our beliefs about lots of things, including flying.eg. we are more aware of the dangers, we value our lifes and family life differently, etc. So, you could potentially think of an aspect of flying as more dangerous.

There are more reasons, e.g. your sense of balance also needs your eyes for reference and the higher you fly the less your eyes can help your ears(balance).

What to do? If it is the sensory option, go get in a heli and fly at your fear height until the feeling gets slightly easier. Repeat this a few times. It is important to stay at that height until you sense a reduction in the feelings, even if it is very small. Sensory associations are not strong and can shift relatively easy. If you avoid it, you just reinforce it.

If it is the belief option , well then you need to do some reflection on those beliefs and either work on changing them or to counter them with alternatives.

Best is to go and see someone as this is not necessarily a big problem! Then it is easy to determine the cause and find a solution.


Good luck

MVNH

[rudestuff]

Thank god - I thought I was the only one!
Having done 98% of my flying below 500' and quite often at treetop level doing utility work - I could never get comfortable flying above about 1500'
For me it seems to be about seeing the detail on the ground - although I know i'm safer higher up, I feel more in control lower down. Because the horizon is all around rather than below, its easier to judge attitude and therefore everything feels more stable. Once I lose ground detail and i'm looking down at everything I become more prone to that tumbling sensation. Interestingly, If i'm flying at night in mountains i'll go way up, and it doesn't bother me because i'm using the instruments more.

[Freewheel]

"so your hind brain"


Robbo Jock, your hind brain obviously works differently to mine, which just jams it's one brown eye shut and waits for it all to go away.......

[What-ho Squiffy!]

"Hind Brain"...also known as your "reptilian brain".

This is the part of the brain that stores "visceral" experiences and reacts whether you like it or not. If this little bugger is over-acting, it needs some attention.

[drugsdontwork]

Im the same. Odd, thought it was just me. Happy as a pig in poo at 1000 and below. Not so above.

[Lister Noble]

Just found this thread,I'm a PPL fixed wing and don't fly much above 2000 feet as I don't need to.
I have had several helicopter flights including a lesson,and did not like going much above 1000 feet.
The reasons for me are that I can see straight down and feel quite vulnerable, as I know there are so many more things to go wrong mechanically than fixed wing.
A commercial fixed wing pilot with helicopter experience ,who feels the same way as me summed it up with these words.
"There ain't no built in redundancy,mate!"

I know it would be pretty catastrophic if a blade came off at 500 feet but it just feels safer at that level.
I'm comforted that some really experienced rotary pilots feel this as well.

The tall building,cliff edge syndrome affect me the same way.



Lister:)

[chester2005]

I can't say i have a fear but when i was 8500ft going towards mountains near Big Bear CA, doors off in an R22 i must admit to being a little bit more apprehensive than hopping field to field in the LA basin!!

and no it wasn't to do with the R22!!!

Chester:ok:

[Pandalet]

This photo was taken last Saturday, somewhere between France and Italy. Not by me, I hasten to add, as I was too busy trying to stop the nose bleed...


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd140/alisonlloyd/console_cropped.jpg

Scary as hell to start with (specially when you go from being 400' AGL to 4000' AGL in seconds), but actually really good fun once you get used to it (about 20 mins for me). The perfect weather helped, too.

[MyTarget]

Is that the standby instrument panel?;)

[QDMQDMQDM]

I get this sitting in the front seat of a Super Cub at 3K and above, surrounded by glass and very narrow. Don't get it in a side by side aircraft. The apparent lack of motion and the perspective make me feel like I'm balanced precariously on the tip of a needle and about to topple off. It's very unpleasant, but gets better with familarity. Good to hear others get it too.

[DennisK]

I find two distinct areas. I invariably experience a 'queazy' feeling in my lower regions when looking over the edge of a tallish building ... even watching same on TV!

But in 38 years with rotary I've never had the same wobblies. Has to be something in our stone-age make-up. Perhaps from when we scurried up trees to evade the animals!

Any 'trick cyclists' out there who know?

Dennis K

[Kelly Hopper]

It's all in the mind. Flying both F/W and Heli's I find it's directly related to perceived groundspeed. Heli's up to 2000' no problem. Hovering at 2400', big problem!
Now with F/W altitude is much less of a problem as we are wizzing along so fast. Right up to FL390 no big deal. But, start going into the 40's and it gets worse. The perception of transit across the ground gets less and less. FL470 over equatorial regions looking down the side of a big CB in turbulance is no fun for anyone! I also found altitude in a high wing cessna worse than a low wing piper. Something to do with the sensation of being suspended rather than sitting on something.
Try walking on a 6" plank balanced on two bricks. Now try it with a 2000' drop underneath you. The same 6" yet only a fool would try it.

[biggles99]

Fabulous picture, pandalet!!!!!:ok:

What a super aircraft. 10,000ft, still climbing, 20 MAP, 80kts, 3-up with half fuel. Surely that cannot be a R44?

Good trip, eh?;)

I don't like being high over water -- very few visual references.

Big Ls

[tecpilot]

Although often done it, i confess allways feeling uncomfortable over 1500' agl on the helicopter controls.
Took part on several "high altitude" (at least for helicopters ;)) missions, but things don't went better from trip to trip. Allways stiff and nervous.

I don't know why. My most suitable explanation, the most safety feeling for me while flying helicopters is the possibility at least to 80% to be on ground within a very short time, also in the mountains or at night. I'm not an off-shore pilot.

On some flights it was necessary to autorotate from > or = 12,000ft. Parachute jumping, you know without doors and restricted airspeed, a/c without much fuel and no other passengers. Means nearly 8-10min on autorotation. Cutted the engine(s) to idle, but there was no greater descent than max. 1500ft/min possible inside the recommended speed and RPM range. Don't liked it!!! Sailing down and down and down and down...

[helimutt]

Reminds me of my first high flight. R22 alpha. Climbed straight up with the instructor, up and up to 10'000' and straight back down to the field in an auto lasting about 5 minutes. Thought nothing of it at the time as I was on the steepest of learning curves with about 9 hours under my belt. Only reason we didnt go higher was the fact we'd both had bacon and egg butties for breakfast, too much tea, and the a/c had no more to give once the rpm drooped with collective tucked well up under my arm pit.:ok:

can't get anyone i fly with these days to want to go above 3k. Done FL85 back from offshore in an S76 a couple of times. Can't beat being 'on top'!! :E



Friend of mine is terrified of heights, won't go on a plane without being virtually comatose due to his fear of flying, but he happily climbed into an R22 with me a couple of times and we got to 5000'. Didn't bother him in the slightest. ??? Weird.

[Winch-control]

Is it not a fear of the sudden stop? ie doesnt matter if its 100ft or 10000ft? same is true! More so I guess in an R22 though!

[mgbgun]

Not a pilot. Been flying offshore since '81 though. Couple of years ago we lost an engine in a 214ST at about 7K. Had a little bobble in attitude as the pilots were trying to get the engine back on-line, made a safe RTB and all seemed fine. Flew out that afternoon on a 76C++ @ 6K altitude and I had a terrible panic attack. The attacks persisted for more than a year till I couldn't take it anymore and had to quit flying. Working land jobs now.
Anything below 2000' was fine but above that the panic sets in. I would cringe inside when I heard the pre-flight announcement we were to fly IFR. I knew the flight was gonna be 5K or better.(usually)
The best way I can describe it is that if we went down at 2K it was gonna be quicker than at 5K. I don't mind dying but I don't wanna die hoarse!
Hate it happened. This is not exactly the way I wanted to end my offshore career.

[Codger]

Sounds like the comfort level has something to do with the amount of time spent at that altitude. Instinctive fear is there to keep you alive. The greater the height that you fall from, the higher the odds that when you hit the ground the deeper the hole that you'll create is going to be. That fear can be overcome with exposure for most. My toes try to reach back and curl around the rung of a ladder at any height greater than 6 feet to the extent that I can hardly walk when I climb back down. I just don't happen to spend much time on a ladder. When flying, the higher the better. Glide ratio in fixed wing was burned in to the gray stuff behind my eyeballs early on. Near miss with an unmapped power line in a S55A and attending the funeral of a buddy that did not miss a powerline a couple of years later added to that desire to be up high. Probably sounds odd, but a man that can't climb a ladder without experiencing physical pain is perfectly comfortable at a height which if he fell from would certainly result in the "nuthin left but hair, teeth and an eyeball" scenario.
No powerlines at 5k AGL.:)

[Darkhorse30]

I don't like flying any higher than about 1500 AGL, mostly because of fear of heights, but also because many emergencies in a helicopter require you to get down ether as soon as possible or immediately. The highest altitude I have been in a helicopter was in a loaded UH-1H at 16,800 ft doing an engine cooling test (single PT6). The Vne was 58 KIAS and any speed above about 55 KIAS produced a pretty rough 2/rev vibration. Also, the collective was 70% of full up and if the engine quit the Nr decay would have been too quick to recover and make an auto.
Since helicopters have gearboxes and engines with chip detectors, it is a good idea to get the bird down on the ground when the warning light illuminates. Most of the time there is no chip, usually fuzz, but you don't know that until you can pull the chip plug and look at it. Also, losing oil pressure in an engine or gearbox at altitude is problematic. Take a look at the S-92 crash off Nova Scotia in another thread.
In that same UH-1H above, I experienced an engine electrical fire on the ground while ground running. It became a non event after quickly shutting down and extinguishing the fire. If I had been at 16,800 ft. when that happened, I suspect that I would not be here writing this blurb, since the UH-1H has no installed fire suppression system.
Just my thoughts.

[windowseatplease]

I used to do zero speed autos from 5,000 feet in an R44. Great fun. But yes, a little scary the first few times you go that high in a heli.

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Worked on SAR with a winch/op/man that hated heights but would still go out the door on 300ft cliffs, awsome TC, just awsome.....

[13snoopy]

I feel exactly the same way. Anything more than 800-1000 agl and I begin to get the willies.
Note: I have never been fond of heights, i.e. looking over a 10th floor balcony, etc.

[Max Wok]

From a back-seaters perspective it's even more uncomfortable. I remember flying in PNG with the doors back at 9 or 10,000 FT. I used to occupy a centre seat in order to calm the nerves. The best method to overcome it is to keep yourself occupied and not think to much........

[Bladecrack]

When I used to instruct in Robbos, I got very used to the typical sight picture at approx 1500-2000ft AGL, and going above 3000ft or in the vicinity of mountains made me feel uneasy.. :hmm:

I think it was just a comfort thing really, as now that I fly something a bit bigger I would rather be well above 3000 ft most of the time, especially on a good day when you know there will be all sorts of VFR stuff bimbling around low level, not looking where they are going.. (recently spotted a homemade plank type just a couple of hundred feet below me about 500m away who was hugging high ground at about 200ft on a CAVOK day..) :rolleyes:

My personal best in a heli was FL90 enroute through Manchester zone from Liverpool to Silverstone.. :cool:

High static objects is a different matter.. I don't like looking over the side of tall buildings, towers, bridges etc, and I ain't climbing no cranes or chimneys, no thanks!

Anyone ever saw that french Spiderman dude that free climbs sky scrapers? Amazing to watch but makes me sweat just looking at it :eek:

[wigwam11]

Ive been working on the rigs the last 20 years and hate anything above 2000ft. The highest I can remember on a north sea flight was 6000ft in a super puma and once went to 9000ft in equatorial guinea, i think that was a 76.

Out of interest what is the max height for North Sea travel and what are the determiming factors? I can't see why they all cant fly at 800-1000 and keep all the passengers happy.

[Bladecrack]

wigwam11,

I can't speak for the offshore guys, but you get better radar cover and radio range at higher levels.

BC

[vaibronco]

We were climbing to pass the appennini, impossible to find a hole between terrain and ground so we climbed and try above. The only uncomfortable sensation is full throttle and collective and little speed. All the rest is funny if you keep contact with the terrain.
But I'm scared by tall buildings and bridges. They give me a bad physical sensation. I can't describe it here :oh:http://home.tele2.it/vaibronco/diecimila%2003.jpghttp://home.tele2.it/vaibronco/diecimila%2002.jpg

[ADRidge]

10,200 in a R-44 Raven II. It had more in it, DA at the time was somewhere around 11k, but I had no desire to go any higher. I'll stick with 1500 agl, thank you.

[KNIEVEL77]

Chaps,
I've just come across this thread after using the search facility.
During my helicopter training I have started to somehow feel a little uneasy while up there at 2000ft and out of my comfort zone in an unusual enviroment. It is starting to play on my mind a little and any advice on how to overcome this would be greatly appreciated.
It seems as though, after reading the posts on here, that flying at maybe 1000ft or even lower might help the feeling of uneasiness but any other tips would be welcome.
Many thanks.

[Tailboom]

I had the same problem when I was training, so I told my Instructor (Mike Smith) who informed me that it was perfectly normal to feel that way and when we flew tomorrow he would cure me !

A while later I asked how he would manage this and he informed me that the next day he would conduct the lessons at 10,000ft and after that 2500ft would feel fine !!!!

The next day and a few hours at 10,000ft in a Hughes 300 certainly did the job, I now regulary fly above 2500ft, and there are lots of safe reasons why this is a good idea, I took some guys to 4500ft on Sunday and Auto'd down they thought it was fantastic !!

[delta3]

My first flight over 6K gave me the creeps, so much, that on the way back I took a major detour flying valleys. Since then, that feeling most of the times disappeared and I am been flying regularly over 10K in robbies, even prefer it over being shaken by lower valley or ridge winds.

I think it is a combination of

(1) fear of heights
(2) the fear produced by a feeling of imbalance.

The first part can be softened by flying "shouldered": keep a mountain ridge just above your "shoulder". I think it can be trained by going progressively higher.

The second part comes from loss of reference. This is consistent with the testimonies of progressive fear at high hover, or when there is turbulence, or over sea. For this part it is useful to be comfortable to be able to fly "IFR", that is without visual reference. At high alt I have "one eye on the instruments" because turbulence and updrafts will provoke unbalances (speed, climb rates, vibrations) that are not easily controlled because reduced outside visual references. This is more pronounced in light helis without stability augmentation nor autopilot.

m2c,
d3

[Brian Abraham]

Must admit I was somewhat surprised during the Vietnam era the number of US Army pilots who didn't feel comfortable flying above 1,500. Possible MGB failure was always the answer - never asked if it was something drummed into them during flight training. Took one lad to 16,000 to show him the sights. Part of our initial helo training was a height climb to 14,000 (UH-1B) so never really thought twice about it, and when the rare chance of an IMC flight came about 10,000 was regularly used by all company pilots (212/412/76)

[Shawn Coyle]

Not sure if I had posted this before (the thread is quite old...). My personal experience is that with doors off, anything above 2,500' makes one feel quite exposed (except at night when you can't see the ground).
And 20,000' AGL even with the doors on makes one feel very exposed....
(parachute and oxygen mask don't help)

[rotorfan]

Being a plank driver for 20 years before my rotor rating, altitude is a good thing, and it doesn't bother me with doors off or on. However, perch me on a ladder 20 feet up and I'm getting damn uncomfortable. Maybe it's the lack of structure around me? In fact, the video going around the 'net of the guys climbing the 1700 foot tower just plain creeps me out. It starts to make my knees weak. And I'm watching it sitting in my friggin' office chair, quite safe and sound! Well, I'm not a total wimp. I'll still fly a Robbie, given the chance.;)

[Flyting]

Sounds like most of us heli pilots are a bunch of sissies when it comes to standing on a bridge or a building ledge. I get the hibijibies just watching people bungi jumping...

As part of our ppl training one of the last lessons is to take the student to 10 000'. Worst was doing it one summer day in a 22 with the doors off...!!! Won't do that again.

Was on a ferry flight to Nigeria trying to get over the hamatan (dust from the Sahara) to get a bit of clean air and vis, and was at about 11 500' when the hydraulics went kaboom... Sounded like we were hit by something explosive...
Being in IF conditions, no hydraulics and having this contious screetching metal on metal and then kaboom noice going off in the boot on the emergency decent into the middle of nowhere was no fun...

Wind and weather prevailing I still fly most of my long haul ferries across africa at 10 000'. Have saved thousands of $$$ for the boss and many hours. The saving on fuel often means we don't have to find a place to land in the middle of nowhere to fuel from the drums, and in the middle of summer, temperatures and the ride are so much more comfortable...

[KNIEVEL77]

Some interesting comments, thank you. It seems as though it is quite a common feeling.
I hope it is something that will pass with time.

[Shawn Coyle]

My personal survey conducted over the last 20+ years of fixed and rotary wing pilots indicates that 80% of pilots hate heights in buildings, and most won't go up on the roof of their house...

[ShyTorque]

My personal survey conducted over the last 20+ years of fixed and rotary wing pilots indicates that 80% of pilots hate heights in buildings, and most won't go up on the roof of their house...

And who can blame them? Rod Hull allegedly got pushed off his own roof by an Emu.

[Aucky]

I remember seeing 10,700 in a 22 in the Drakensberg's, SA. Circling around the highest peak, and a frozen waterfall, followed by a 5 min autorotation back to base camp at 4000' and it was wonderful.

Heights don't bother me but the oddest feeling of height I have experienced was enroute from Durban to the Drakensberg's where the ground level progressively climbs and we were flying at approx 4-5000 ft AMSL but approx 50' AGL (temporarily), upon reaching a large cliff the ground suddenly dropped away by 2-3000 feet... It certainly made our stomachs jump :}

I had always believed that one of the height limitations of the 22 is due to the time to get it down on the ground in an engine fire... Maybe not true, but good enough reason for me to not choose to put myself unnecessarily far from terra firma :ok:

[Nubian]

Maybe it's the lack of structure around me?

Same feeling it's the "cage" we're in that makes the difference.

Roofs,ladders,cliffs, you name it...... you can fall OFF those things you know!!:}

Altitude in whichever helicopter don't bother me, however hanging out of the door instead of looking through the hole in the floor, makes it a little more uncomfortable than "heads in".

[KNIEVEL77]

Nubian,

Well you are in a 'cage' as you put it in an R22 but the feeling of uneasiness was still there!

Hopefully i'll feel better next time!

K77.

[Sam Rutherford]

The higher you are, the more time you have.

As a rotary, then fixed, then back to rotary, pilot...

Hitting CU won't break anything...

Sam.

[RMK]

Perception - it’s a function of what you are used to. I spend more time skydiving than helicopter flying. So flying at higher altitudes (with doors on or off) makes no difference to me.

However, it is interesting that many very experienced skydivers have the exact same aversion as many of the replies above when doing “cross country” jumps. “Cross-Countries” are skydives done at the same ordinary jump height of 12,000-13,000ft but instead of freefalling to 3,000 before opening your parachute, you deploy as soon as jumping out of the aircraft. The result will be a 15min+ parachute ride down. Yet I’ve seen many guys with years in the sport and a couple thousand jumps say they just feel uncomfortable hanging in their harness looking at their feet with over 12,000ft under them – as their usual “sight picture” is 3000ft

I remember when I was doing heli lessons during windy/turbulent days, my instructor would say “you seem more comfortable with turbulence than any student I’ve had”. To which I replied “you should try the same turbulence with just some fabric and strings over your head”

[chopperchappie]

N9VT0qbg-9c


OMG !!

CC

[KNIEVEL77]

Chopperchappie,

I couldn't do that job for all of the tea in China! :eek:

K77.

[KNIEVEL77]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but after a break of a few months due to family commitments I restarted my training yesterday but still couldn't totally relax.

Having read every post on here at length, "t'aint natural" the original poster made a comment that I can relate to and has made me think that perhaps my uneasiness is down to the feeling of instability of the R22 and therefore was wondering if it might be an idea to have a few hours in the larger R44?

Any further ideas appreciated!

[g0lfer]

k77
I always experience vertigo after a period off flying. I start with half an hour hovering then some 500' circuits and build it up from there. After an hour or so it is back to normal. R44 is better but it is still an issue.

[KNIEVEL77]

g0lfer,

Yes, good point, that's certainly something i'll ask my instructor if we can try.

Thank you.

[OEI-Dave]

I'd try to keep my eye more on the instruments on the way up. It's eaier to get all worked up when you have time to be looking down. Try making a routine of checking your instruments in between looking out. Might help a bit. :}

[KNIEVEL77]

I had a thought today that it might actually be 'component failure' that makes me uneasy hence being no good on the London Eye, moving Fairground Rides, Hot Air Balloons etc but fine at the top of the Eiffel Tower or a Helter Skelter!

[timex]

Knievel, don't lose too much sleep over it as sitting at altitude takes a while to get used to. In a previous existance I'd often spend up to 6hrs during a day (or night) sat at 10,000ft in a Gazelle, it took a while to "aclimatise". Now I very rarely fly above 2,000ft, when I go up to 5,000ft I find this a bit strange at first..

What I'd suggest is try not to concentrate on the "numbers" too much but enjoy the view, be confident in your own ability to get the A/C back on the ground if things go wrong.

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks Timex, maybe I just need more time in the air!

[EIRE HELICOPTER]

I have been flying helicopters for over 5 years as a hobby.I have PPL H over 4 years and hold a r44 rating. My fear is going solo when I’mflying with a passenger or instructor I’m fine but while going solo I have abig fear of the heights and space I’m in, it only lasts around 20 min andleaves.

My big hate is when I take off and the helicopter climbs outreaching 1000-1500 ft. I start a feel frozen and a little panic (what am I doingup here feeling) I worry about things going wrong etc.

I love flying but that feeling at the start I hate as theground disappears

I have 160 hours done and fly 2 hours per month mainly with aninstructor. I love to have the balls to fly solo and enjoy it. Any ideas onthis would be a massive help

[firebird_uk]

What's the cost of an instructor? 45 Euros per flight? Keep them there and stay safe.

Simples.

[Hughes500]

Have had a couple of students like that, the cure is to play an ipod with some fav music on takes your mind away from it.:ok:

[the coyote]

Get some good professional help. Anxieties are common and curable.

[Frog Fan]

I remember the same feeling, perhaps it is a good thing. You don't want to ever truly believe you are totally in control; 'cos you are not.
I can't remember how long the feeling lasted with me but it's long gone now. I would not be surprised if most pilots have felt it at some time or other. It will pass.
Mine did and and have been a com pilot for 5 years now.
Anyway, how often will you be flying on your own?!

[Savoia]

My godfather told me about his flying instructor who, during his initial training course, had to deal with a couple of students who were terrified about performing their first solo.

Evidently he took them around the side of the hangar, squeezed them by the throat and, with the addition of a kaleidoscope of abusive language, threatened to beat them raw unless they mounted the craft and found themselves airborne within 5 minutes. Apparently this tactic was largely effective!

Regarding vertigo in flight, never had it, even with the doors off many thousands of feet agl. But .. put me atop a tall building or a cliff edge and I am most uncomfortable.

[SECRET SERVICE]

Evening EH

This is an interesting thread. To be absolutely honest with you I reckon this is a common mindset with all helicopter pilot in the early part of there flying whether as a PPL or CPL.

I have been a PPL(H) pilot for 8 years now, initially type rated on the R22 and then progressed on to R44.

I too...for a while - used to fly around on my own hour building when occasionally thoughts pinned through my head "What if something happens now with the helicopter? What will I do? Where will I go?"

Do what you need to do to stay safe at all times and if that means flying with an instructor then do it. May be if you can carry out frequent, short solo flights gradually building your flying confidence over time. There's no rush and you can always fly another day.

Just remember all the training that your instructor(s) taught you. Since I've been flying I've had a couple of life experience incidents. I had a complete drive belt failure in an R22 whilst completing my PPL(H) Test near West Malling in Kent. It resulted in us auto-rotating into a field where we slid along the damp wet grass for around 40 feet or so and then viewed the root cause.

Admittedly, the examiner took over and I learned so much from him and from that specific incident. The 3 rule that I live by when flying are as follows: Never allow the left hand to venture too far away from the collective. I've seen pilots flying Robinson aircraft in person and on Youtube holding maps or charts with their left hands which immediately sends shivers down my spine as I'm fully aware with the speed that RRPM decays in R22s. Secondly always mentally stay in front of the helicopter and never behind "Prepartion is a job half done" as the saying goes. Thirdly never fly outside your flying ability and limitations or training. These rules always work for me.

During another experience - post PPL(H) I lost all communication while flying an R22 through Farnborough's Airspace. I kept calm, controlled monitored my fuel and instruments and took the necessary steps where I returned back to Wycombe Air Park successfully.

Have faith and confidence in yourself, never become complacent and I think you'll naturally find the ability over time with how to enjoy flying solo without the fear and worry, should and if, something go wrong...I think you'll surprise yourself.

[145kts]

EH
Sounds to me like your suffering from anxiety (I'm no expert)
Lots of pilots suffer , but not many will divulge information because its seen as a bit "airy-fairy"
Read a few books on the subject
(Panic attacks, Christine Ingham)
(Feel the fear and do it anyway, Susan Jeffers)

Cognitive behavioral therapy is another very helpful way.

After that ..... GET OUT THERE AND DO SOME SOLO ! ;)

[misterbonkers]

Have you tried just going solo around the airfield for a few hours? Then, build on that and maybe try some low level circuits (500ft) for a few hours, then step up to 700ft, then a 1000ft and then try a transit flight A-B and so on?

If the above is no use then a Transactional Analyst should be able to help you in addressing your fears.

Good luck! MB

[Shenanigan]

I don't know if this is relevant, but when my instructor informed me I was ready to solo, I thought he must have me confused with someone else. But, being that i was kind of dumb, and I thought saying no was like crying uncle I just strapped in and did it. And you know what? I flew great!

Wait, actually I flew just as bad as before and probably parked it 30 degrees nose left after dropping it on the ground at the end shaming my old instructor.

So later on as I told people that I in no way felt ready to do that solo, almost all of them responded with..."me either".

But, it occurred to me later on that what my instructor was thinking. Even though I couldn't do much of anything very well, all I needed to do was not crash it, which is harder than you might think if all your doing is flying from one runway to another. I was really having trouble with landings, and I remember at one point my instructor said "if it's giving you that much trouble just turn the throttle off at hover and then it'll land itself".

By no means am I telling you that you should do your solo if you're not ready, but I'm telling you that if you have some anxiety about doing your solo, you are probably like 95% of the people out there.

[before landing check list]

I had the same problem as you when I started. I had flown FW for years prior to my 1st helicopter flight in 1982. My 1st flight scared me because there seemed to be nothing supporting this bubble in space...nothing. With a FW you can see the support. It went away after a few flights when I realized that I can control this bubble.
What you suffer from is a fear of falling, not a fear of heights (There is a difference) and all very normal. I think you need to fly more than 2/month. I tried parachute jumping when I was in my teens. I jumped 6 times over the course of 2 years. Result was I never got over being terrified (scared is normal so I hear) and the jumps were so infrequent and I thought of them so much I bypassed scared into be terrified. Maybe your flying is the same. Step up the pace and you will be fine.
Next step is to fly something a little more substantial. I think a Robbie would make me uneasy also.

[500 Fan]

I think everyone experiences some kind of fear or anxiety during the course of their training and immediately after the flight test. I think you need to increase the frequency of your flying per month, though. I found that made a big difference for me when I felt anxiety during the initial period after my flight test.

500 Fan.

[maeroda]

EH,

learn to fly gliders; You will be totally alone with controls and if you want to GO you must learn to do it on your own. Hope It's will help you.
Otherwise you may consider to quit flying. No shame, personal attitude regarding flying is "personal".

[500e]

Been there instructor got out & said OK do a circuit or two, I now realised he was barking, letting me loose with £ 100+k machine, went & hovered & did spot turns for what seemed like ages, radio call G**** do the circuits or you will have to re fuel!! or something like that. did circuit the feeling on landing was relief.
On the X country I kept thinking what am I doing here, as the way points passed I relaxed slightly, then it was time to land again :( still got it back in one piece.
I think worry is good stops you becoming over confident.
With 2 hours a month half the flight is a re-learning curve.

[FLY 7]

Few thoughts:

- Brave post, but good to ask
- I think 2 hrs pm / 160 hrs in 5 years is the issue
- Ideally 4 hrs pm, perhaps 1 of which with an instructor advancing your skills
- Aim to try an fly in good, comfortable weather, one less issue to worry about
- Never feel rushed or under pressure, take your time with prep and pfc
- On lift, initially air taxi to the heli training area and spend a few mins doing touch downs, lifts, turns.
- This re-familarises the senses, checks the helicopter is responding correctly, Ts & Ps ok - and you're close to the ground
- Only when you are happy, depart

[Gordy]

Why do you fly so high? I think your fear is not of being alone, but of heights. I rarely go above 500 ft/agl.

[nigelh]

I'm with Gordy :ok: Even after circa 2,000 hrs I still feel uncomfortable above 2,000 ft agl and almost all my flying is done at 500ft . I only go high to make use of a tail wind . My main reason is that I have a few friends who have had emergencies that needed them to get on the ground ASAP ...... In the event of a fire or something shaking lose the time to get down from say 2,000 or higher can be too long . A friend recently did a forced landing with the whole tail rotor assembly hanging off .... If he had been much higher than 500ft he may not be here now as the whole lot would have departed . Each to his own but that is my thoughts !!!

[topendtorque]

Same here lower is better, one's nose tends to bleed above 2,000 feet, and I think nigelh is missing a nought, is that nawt all?
Even in the venerable '22 I've had three or four times where height would have been a big issue for emergencies. The smell of burning rubber, lower bearing 'nother day and once a hell of a din, sounded like the shebang falling apart. Just as well I got down quick that day or I'd have had a heart attack. Turned out it was only a cowl had come open.

[chopjock]

You are worried flying a Robbo?, quite right! Me too!

[SARREMF]

I have 5500 hrs of mil and civ flying and still feel like that!! But then again. People have said I am stubborn!

[KNIEVEL77]

EH,
Did you manage to eventually go solo and if so how did it feel, did you get over your fear?
K77.

[Peter3127]

Maybe been done before but ... who is scared of heights?

I did years of paragliding. Could hardly look over the edge and then could run off it happily. Climbed out one Spring day to A100 in my deck chair suspended by dental floss below an elaborately sewn shower curtain. :eek: Flew fixed wings with no issues. Don't love standing on the top deck of a machine looking at the rotorhead, but can do it OK if I can stand on the machine and not a ladder .... Not so keen on flying with the doors off .... but otherwise no issue.

Suspect it's a fear of falling, not heights, and suspect I am not alone. And I can cope with a spider in the cockpit. :)

Thoughts?

[whoknows idont]

I had a bit of a brown moment yesterday. I had to take a manlift to around 36ft to reach a fall protection reel under the hangar roof. We didn't have any safety harnesses around (I know...) and I didn't feel the need for one since I regularly work on the manlift unsecured at 10 to 15ft and always feel safe. When I leaned over the handrail to reach the reel I somehow suddenly lost visual reference and had a strong sensation of falling. It got me pretty shaky and boy did it feel good once I got down to more reasonable heights... :\ What a nasty feeling that was. I'm convinced that everyone who ever deliberately jumped to kill themselves terribly regretted their decision as soon as they started to accelerate...

For me it's also more the fear of falling. When I'm safety harnessed I don't mind walking to an edge and peeking down. When I'm not secured, I get the unpleasant kind of rush. When a handrail is at breast height, I don't mind sticking my head over it, when it's only at waist height, I feel like my center of gravity is way over the ledge even though I know it's not the case. I get the feeling that someone will pull my feet back to flip me over and my body is anticipating the sensation of that. Always interesting to meet the inner caveman when the instincts kick in.

I never felt like that flying a helicopter. But I've never actually flown above 2500AGL I think. Reading this thread makes me want to take one way up to try and reproduce this shrinking floor phenomenon you guys are talking about.

[Vertical Freedom]

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/rotors99007/504FC6C9-C3FF-4EF3-B68D-441F3DE7B981_5.jpg
landing zones from 200' to 23,000' :ooh:

[Paul Cantrell]

Why do you fly so high? I think your fear is not of being alone, but of heights. I rarely go above 500 ft/agl

It's definitely just what you're used to. For the first few years I flew/taught, i didn't tend to go that high and doing so would often be nervous (hey, it's a pretty different sight picture, especially in a R22 with a VFR panel).

Then I started to do a lot of instrument flying/instructing where you're often at 4,000-6000 ft or more and you just get used to it.

After a little while you realize that there are lots of benefits - less noise for the people on the ground, lots and lots of places to pick from for an autorotation, and arguably fewer birds/wires/towers.

There are mechanical failures where you would be better off close to the ground, but of the dozen or so failures people I know have had, they've all been failures where extra altitude would have been a benefit (i.e. where they weren't going to lose control of the aircraft if they didn't get it right down).

So, while there's always the risk that you might get one of those types of failures where time is of the essence, I think the odds are against those types of failures and that it's more typically safer to fly higher and a lot more neighborly.

When I fly with someone who likes to fly low I'll roll the throttle off on them (so, say, 500 feet) and then after the (very short) autorotation I'll have them do the same thing from 2,000 feet. Having 16 times the area to pick from for their forced landing, and 4 times as long to think about stuff usually convinces them that higher is better.

That said, if you're afraid when you go higher than 500 feet it's not something you'll quickly cure yourself of - it's not fun flying while scared! But it's something you can gradually work yourself up to.

[Rusty1983]

Hello guys,

I could not find anything in the search function and maybe here are some experienced pilots who know how to handle and might were already in a similar situation.
I am in my hour building for cplh nearly 150 total hours and done with all theory exams, so the only thing what I have to do is flying now.

In my last flight I wanted to practise some steep turns, weather was cavok, wind 15kts gusting up to 17kts, temperature warm enough to fly off doors with the R22. Reaching 1500ft AGL everything was ok, I started my turns and suddenly I got a weird feeling in my head and couldnt look down to ground anymore. I was like nailed in my seat, felt my pulse was increasing hands began to sweat, breathing rate changed, was hard to stay focus on avaiting.
I immediately stopped the turns, started to look only on horizon in the front with a fixed head position and did proper xchecks with the instruments only by eye movement but avoided looking down and tried to ignore my peripheral vision.
Luckily I was close to base, so I flew back and landed safely, I was aware of other traffic, but personally I felt in this high tense stress condition I lost at least 30% of my situational awareness, and it was not funny.

Since that happened I am struggling to motivate me to get back into the cockpit, because I dont know if this condition could appear at any time again.
I want to fly so I decided to fly with other pilots as pax and focussed on staring constantly on the ground just to check if the condition appears again, but it did not, but the conditions were not comparable with the conditions when it happened. And it was definitely a psychological thing, physiological I am completely in top condition.

So anyone here who got some experience in similar cases and knows what to do to get back into the cockpit?

I mean just saying, avoid flying off door steep turns above 1500AGL cannot be an option, due to too many jobs in the business requiring that situation...

[Michael S]

Search for the phenomenon called VERTIGO.

It looks like typical symptoms. Probably everyone here had that sensation at least once.

[GS-Alpha]

You wouldn't catch me doing steep turns with the doors off in an R22 for precisely the same reasons. I suffer vertigo in the R22 when I fly 500ft over the top of a mountain and then it rapidly drops away down to a couple of thousand feet. I know it's coming and steady myself for it. I don't suffer such extreme symptoms as you, quite possibly as a result of being ready for it. I also fly an MTO Sport autogyro. If I look straight down the side in that, I can feel the vertigo coming on. As a result, I avoid doing so for too long. I only get it by looking directly downwards over the side, everywhere else is fine.

Basically, the secret is to ease yourself back into it slowly. You know that going up with friends has not reproduced the effects. So go up flying and fly as they did. Gradually expand the envelope. Through experience, you should be able to identify exactly when the effects are going to come on, and either avoid them, or learn to recover from them. I just tell myself over and over to keep flying the aircraft and it's an illogical fear. It passes pretty quickly for me, but only once I've stopped doing what was causing the problem. In all likelihood, you'll never stop yourself from suffering vertigo whilst performing tight turns with the doors off. But you may be able to learn how long you can tolerate it, and I think you will learn how to recover your capacity far more quickly now you have a better idea of what it was, rather than combining it with fright adrenaline from your first encounter.

I wouldn't be too worried about it, and just get up flying again. Think of it as good training for the scenario where you experience a high stress scenario due to a significant inflight failure? You've now learnt that yes, high stress zaps capacity, but you can still manage that stress and keep flying the aircraft.

Good luck
GS

[B2N2]

I'm no rotorhead but honestly you're not the first and you won't be the last that scares himself ( or herself) during timebuilding.
Part of the maturing process.
Time to get back on the horse.

[rudestuff]

Perfectly normal. Don't worry about it. Get back into it.

[John R81]

Don't be "too proud" to take an instructor / safety pilot with you for your next trip. Just remember - far more embarrassing to bend it.

[[email protected]]

Yep - Vertigo for sure - have had exactly the same in a Gazelle with the doors off. It's just a psychological thing, normally the doors prevent you from seeing straight down so it is very different when you have them removed.

I don't do heights and get Vertigo but I can fly a helicopter in the mountains with rock on one side and thousands of feet of fresh air on the other - hasn't stopped me from flying for 35 years - crack on.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Rusty1983,

I guess you can tell from the answers this is a fairly common effect; when I flew Scouts in Hong Kong doors off I had the same effect, albeit less profound.

You'll get that with the doors off; it's not a thing you need to worry about.

Cheers,

NEO

[parabellum]

When I was at Middle Wallop 1964/5 we had to climb to 10,000 in the Sioux with doors off, wearing parachutes, don't think anyone enjoyed it, in later flying, at high altitude, the secret for me was to keep the doors on. Eventually flew for nearly forty years.

[B2N2]

Confession time....when I started flying business jets I sat sideways for the first two weeks hating right turns at altitude.
Captain boss man thought it was hilarious. Eventually got used to it and enjoyed flying at 45,000'.

[aa777888]

I love flying with the doors off. Must be all that time I spent skydiving in an earlier life :}

Keep at it, Rusty. Humans are remarkably adaptable and you will acclimate no problem!

[megan]

Humans are remarkably adaptableIndeed they are (Building the Empire State).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/11/fd/c111fd978c206589db4c0158348c959c--empire-state-building-historical-pictures.jpg

[Hughes500]

Rusty

Most of us have this problem, I used to do a lot of rock climbing, high altitude climbing when much younger so you think I wouldn't suffer from vertigo. BUT
even today after 8000 hours, with doors off at high altitude get that vertigo feeling despite doing a lot of long lining with no door on. Don't get the effect when long lining, only get it when dropping parachutists from 8000 ft and only when they have left the aircraft ! The only other time time was with Richard Hammond from top gear when we were trying to dip a bucket into a cloud at 5000 ft, oh boy really had a problem with that along with Hammond screaming he couldn't handle not having a door on.
You do get used to it !!!

[Rusty1983]

Guys, thank you so much!!
I thought already I have to take a serious therapy and something is wrong with me and in worst case have to give up flying.
I will definitely take an instructor with me the next flights.

Haven't been flying as PIC for 3months now, because of that thing, seems like it's time to grab the balls and ride the horse again :-)

[Rusty1983]

Indeed they are (Building the Empire State).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/11/fd/c111fd978c206589db4c0158348c959c--empire-state-building-historical-pictures.jpg

Ay and that is nothing for me. I mean I have no problem up to 3m standing on the edge of something unsecured...but when I helped a friend of mine building the roof of his house which was 5-6m high, unsecured, I started sweating on the edge and had to go back. Standing on top of a skyscraper inside or outside with distance to the edge or a fence and leaning over the fence is ok but already with a uncomfortable feeling coming up.
Skydiving and Bungeejumping is not a big issue, due to the fact that you dont have to thrill and punish yourself on the edge a long time and can jump quickly, after the jump it's fine.

And this stuff is...I dont know how to say, from my point of view a mixture between crazy/insane absolute not possible for me, but if these guys find their freedom an satisfaction in it, I would accept but never do it on my own:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAU54D7Xeys

Or it would be a long adaption phase...if you'll survive it

[pilotmike]

seems like it's time to grab the balls and ride the horse again
You really should leave that until after you've enjoyed the flight! Best to keep both hands on the controls at all times during flight.

[Rusty1983]

You really should leave that until after you've enjoyed the flight! Best to keep both hands on the controls at all times during flight.

Will do that for sure, 100%! :ok:

[BOBAKAT]

If I climb more than 3 meters, I get dizzy. I can not move the antenna on my TV on the roof ... My mother lived on the 12th floor, I can not get close to the window ... VERTIGO
But when I am not connected to the ground i have nothing... Last time i clim on the FL 120 i was on Squirrel to take picture above Bora Bora Island. No cloud, and a japanese professionnal photographer shooting on the back, doors opened from the bottom.. Except very bad feeling with the blade vibrations , no vertigo ! but very cold ! lol