BA Job seniority

[thewwIIace]

just heard from reliable source that anticpated job losses are in line with seniority and guess what, 95% of them are from a group of 'new' entries in seniority - alias city flyer express. i guess this was what was meant by pros and cons of joining BA at the time, didnt realise the time would be so short in a big company. hope all works out well for all

[spoilers yellow]

As I understand it those guys joining from Cityflyer have it in their contracts that for purposes of continuous employment there date of joining Cityflyer is the one that comes into play.
Therefore some guys will have quite a few guys in BA who will very sadly be facing the chop before they do themselves.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[Harry Wragg]

Quote from my BA contract. "For statuatory employment protection purposes, the commencement date of your continuous employment by the Company was (start date at CFE)".

Harry

[shuttlecock]

...which probably means that you can expect your 1 month of pay per year of employment, but I would be very surprised if it means that people above you on the seniority list go first.

I hope, of course, that it will not come to that for any of us.

Regards.

[mainfrog2]

You could have left them in suspence a little longer Harry.

p.s. I've been to the pub, the only time I'm truly rational.

Lets use plan B. You did have a plan B?

[exeng]

Shuttlecock,

I believe that our Harry is correct. City Flyer Pilots will not be made redundant before Pilots that joined at a date later than City Flyer 'date of joining'.

However what we need to do is to try and ensure that no Pilots are made redundant.

To do this we need to make temporary collective sacrifices.

Immediate cost savings could be made that could be used as a bargaining chip to prevent redundancies amongst our colleagues.

These cost savings would hopefully prevent our Airline failing.

Before the terrible events of last Tuesday we were all well aware why B.A. was in the financial state it was in.

It is no good in my opinion to harpe on about the fact that 'it isn't our fault'. Well of course it isn't. The fact is that B.A. are in an awful financial condition. So all talk of 'Well it was Bob and the Board that got us here' will not help.

I believe that now is the time to pull together for the sake of all our Airlines staff; let us remember it is not just Pilots who are facing grief here.

I am in favour of 'lending' cash to our Airline that will be repaid when certain agreed financial targets are met. This loan could take many forms, FHR, basic pay, or allowances; or a combination of the above.

These are obviously terrible times. And in these times it seems to me that we must look after each other. We must be prepared to make sacrifices that ensure all of our colleagues, Flight Crew and ground Crew alike, have a future. Now is not the time to be selfish.

Let us not forget however the collective drive we have to achieve market rates. When we place ourselves on the Management 'Altar' it would be quite right to remind them that we are acting to save the Airline and therefore save ourselves.

Any monies seen in profits should not be distributed to shareholders before the staff that made any profits possible.

The Board should lead all the staff in proving evidence of the cuts they have willingly given.

Cuts should be made in a proportion that those who recieve most should give the most. i.e Captains should be prepared to make a larger sacrifice than F/O's. Board members should certainly make the greatest sacrifice as not only do they earn the most but they have also overseen the most destructive Management experiment in our Airline history. It cannot be right that only the 'little people' pay.

Unless I see a lead from the top then I am prepared to see the whole lot founder.

These are very difficult times so please let us all try to pull together for the common good.


Regards
Exeng

[Notso Fantastic]

Well said Exeng- you beat me to it!

Look guys, we've been through this before. Let BALPA handle it! If you are not a member now, phone them up today! Things you can rely on- pilots will take no more of a sacrifice than any other group, and Rob Halls letter today makes clear IF we are going to pull our belts in, we wanna be sure it ain't gonna get gobbled up in 'Marketing Budgets', etc. Last in/first out has to be followed- seniority rules us so completely it can actually work to our advantage. So if we have a 10% head loss, it means 10% of the most junior. BUT, no pilot has ever been made involuntarily redundant in circumstances like this. BALPA will, I am sure, go for a pay cut to counter this. BUT the guys that would have gone would be the lowest paid, so it doesn't equate to a 10% pay cut but far less- see where I'm getting? The important thing is everybody gives their support to BALPA and let BALPA handle it! Redundancies will be offered, and expect a good take up! My own feelings are to not worry too much for your jobs!

[Dr Tre]

I desperately hope you are right, NotSo. :(

[Hot Wings]

Notso - I also hope that you're right. Or will Rodders go to page 6 of the Cathay management manual and just give 3 months notice to those whose services are no longer required? We will all find out on Thursday.

(When is the Guv holding his virtual press conference about the fate of his imaginary staff at his imaginary airline? Just wondering).

[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]

[rustbucket732]

hot wings
Just remember when you are made redundant, and dream of flying chartered senecas... the guv... and his fleet of gleaming 1011's and top notch trolly dollies.... be careful what you say now!! :p

[Fly747]

Guv now runs the world's most profitable airline. Doesn't fly so can't lose!

[Magnus Picus]

Pilots on fleets that are grounded will be stood down regardless of seniority. It is up to us to make sure those that are stood down remain on full pay. We will all have to take a pay cut to ensure that.
Why do I say this?
BA is trying to slash costs. Conversion courses will be minimised so therefore the most junior rule is unlikely to apply. Those on the 747 classic are unlikely to be shipped off onto other fleets for the immediate time.
Redundancies? Not yet. We will work together to avoid that happening.

[rustbucket732]

Magnus Picus
OK for the pilots... I'm thinking of the poor F/E chappies on the classics. Keep your chin up lads (I don't think there are any female F/E's in BA) live to fight another day :) :)

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

All of the FE's knew that the Classic had less than a year to go so yes it's always unpleasant for someone to lose a role - but I'm sure these guys had made some provisions anyway. Marcus, having recently joined the company I think its refreshing to hear that everybody realises that we all have to face this together and if that involves changes to our pay and conditions in the short(!!!) term, then so be it. This seems to me to be the (almost) universal opinion of guys I have spoken to and I think the pilot fraternity in BA deserve a lot of credit. Crews in other companies see us as a bunch of money grabbers ( I certainly used to before I joined)- credit where credits due!

[BavarianBoy]

Perhaps a bit off topic but what about guys and gals who are waiting for their courses as DEPS.. i.e. guys due to start 777 and 400 courses in OCT-Jan 2002?? As i have friends in that situation and they have heard nothing as yet. As far as i am aware, all CEP's have been told courses cancelled but no news for DEP's yet? If they have signed their contract does that help them out. I guess it is tough for all at the moment but I do feel for those guys that have resigned from their present employer and if BA pull the plug they are not able to go back due to cuts in their present airlines??
I really hope we all bounce back and i firmly believe BA will in the long term.

Good luck... BB

[MaxAOB]

Most DEP's that I know have been told that their courses are postponed indefinately. This has left them in the lurch as their old companies are not interested anymore! Hopefully GW BUSH will try and let the UN sort it out and consumer confidence will return quickly. If there are significant assaults in the East we might all be out of a job or, might have to get my fatigues back out the closet!!

:( :o :eek: :o :(

[crazyman]

Sounds like everyone is thinking along the same lines here. I am a little nervous about expectations of BALPA. Negotiators from BA and BALPA are generally politicians and tend become embroiled in trivia. Little is done as both fear "opportunism" from the other.

I think the staff need to unite in their opinion and press for action. What about:-

* 20% Pay Cut on all basic pay
* FHR halved
* Flexibility of crews requested
to avoid paying NCP
* BA agree to use DOJ if compulsory redundancies are required
* All agreements and pay re-instated in six months (by negotiation)

This would generate a £30 million saving and
provide security whilst avoiding conflict. Some kind of early retirement/part-time working scheme could also run alongside this which would provide further savings.

[Minesagrolsch]

crazyman,your name is very apt.What point is there in making all these drastic sacrifices you list to save 30 million ?BA has 1 billion available and is spending 700 million per month !!So your 30 mill would last a day and a half !!

[shuttlecock]

Crazyman,

I'd love to see the mathematics that you used to generate your £30 million saving!

I think that the situation could be better managed by stand down and part time work, which would suit a lot of the flying community, and save BA money. Anything that we give away we will be hard pressed to get back. Call me a cynic, but this is just the opportunity that BA has been waiting for to shaft us; they were very swift to put a figure to the redundancies (which have done nothing to keep the city happy) and our pay is not a significant part of the cash flow problem.

Chin up!

[shuttlecock]

gotajob4rus,

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but according to the letters which have been circulating from RE, ALL recruitment is frozen; given that they are going to be (hopefully) standing down pilots rather than making them redundant, I can only suggest that you make alternative arrangements. If it is of any use to you, when the Gulf war was finished, it took about 3 years for BA to start dipping into its pool of cadets. I know that it is cold comfort, but there are other jobs out there...

Best of luck to you - I know exactly how you feel.

[Horatio]

Shuttlecock, you reckon there are other jobs out there?...pray, do tell where? I reckon most airlines have put recruitment on hold until they can see something develop out of this mess.

[screwdriver]

Good posts from ExEng (as always)and Rustbucket.
Shuttlecock may find that when it comes to redundancy payments the amount used to determine the payment is your WEEKLY wage. In fact if memory serves me right the government have set an upper limit to this at £210. The matrix used to determine the actual payment only takes into account years of service( with a maximum of 20) and your age. The MAX payment (up until 1997) was £6300 !!!. Won't go far will it. However if the chaps all keep their heads and think creatively AND long term this mess may be survivable

DISILOOSHUNNED-- As I understand it, The 747 FEs were slowly leaving BA on fairly decent severance/retirement packages. Obviously not everyone would have been able to leave when they wanted due to the ongoing requirement for their services. The options for those still with BA in November would have been to take one of the above packages or to redeploy within BA. Both of these options have now evaporated .So spare a thought for those guys, some with 30+ years in BA, who have been caught up in this mess. As for the rest of your posting, I couldnt agree more. :confused: DISILOOSHUNNED