So! who wants to be a Bristows cojoe?

[Steve76]

Helimuster said it....
they didn't want him cause he is on the wrong (albeit closer to the start...) side of 40. Surely a company wanting "long term employees" would see that a guy who is keen, regardless of age, still has about 20yrs of aviation left in him.
Again recently a good mate was denied a cojoe position with Llyods because he didn't have 300hrs.(!?) Who the hell came up with a number like 300hrs. Why not 200hrs? Whats the difference in the skill and learning ability of a 200 or 1000hr pilot? I've heard the excuse is that a 300hr guy can apply for an ATPL later on. Surely in the time it will take to get to that stage he could reasonably seek parttime work elsewhere to attain those hours, or Lloyds could offer ICUS.
Personally, I turned down Bristows Australia because the likelyhood of 5yrs as a cojoe is a major negative on a CV and ones state of mind. It makes "captaincy" appear a unique and devine status only to be bestowed to the very exceptional of us out there. What a load of s**t. I turned down the cojoe position when the finer details were discussed and I figured that 5yrs is a lifetime in aviation and there is absolutely no way anyone can guarantee that they will hold the same contracts past that period. Plenty of Llyods drivers will remember the layoffs in the late 90's as testiment.
Regardless, I am VERY glad I said no. I subsequently was offered work for another international firm who considered my aviation experience (including 1500hrs of 76 time as cojoe, nil as twin command) to be more than enough for an immediate captaincy for their contracts. I thought I was the junior until I met other captains who are 29 and just 30! Unheard of in OZ or NZ.
I fly the same aircraft on jobs that are more interesting and technical than the repeditive offshore industry, the pay is comparable, you get more than enough NVFR and IFR and you are home with the kids each night. Why could my home industry not offer this? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
I don't mean to sound negative to the opportunities handed out by Bristows but since they have been rejected by qualified, experienced staff for over a year; perhaps it is time for the large companies and the Australasian industry in general, to wake up to the mass exodus of young qualified twin drivers heading overseas and get realistic to the changing aviation environment back home.
Rant over.

[John Eacott]

Nothing new, Steve. Mayne-Bristow wouldn't let me fly their shiny S61 22 years ago because it was "for Senior Australian Captains only" (I'd just arrived from the North Sea). I only had 2000+ hours on type, as against the shiny new Wx60 endorsement that I was allowed to fly solo halfway to Timor and back.

As far as hours go, I've taken the line that the person, and the all round experience, is far more important. I have a number of FW drivers who started (with me) with &lt;200 hrs, and none of them have let me down. A couple of B206 drivers started with me with c500 hrs, but were either known or came highly recommended. One moved on last year to an EMS job, and has just helped me out for a few days on the NSW fires, justifying the initial move to give him a go. There are an awful lot of 5000 hr pilots out there who have only done 100 hours, 50 times <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Joker's Wild]

Very nice rant, I must say!! It's only since going to work overseas I've been made aware of the sheer nonsense some companies and countries put their own flight crew through on their
"divine" journey to the immortal rank of Captain.

What's up with that??? By the time they do manage to get promoted, they will be so bitter that any F/O unlucky enough to have to fly with them will surely be told over and over again how long it will take before they themselves get promoted. My own experience suggests the longer it takes for some individuals to be promoted to Captain, the more anal they can be expected to be in the cockpit. They develop, for whatever reason, a superiority complex that everyone else then has to deal with.

Too bad really that it has to be like this, there is some genuine talent out there that would do well if only given the chance. For the companies out there still practicing this sort of path to promotion, what can I say? They may, in the end, be the architects of their own staffing troubles.

[sling load]

I agree Steve 76 and with John Eacott. Hours Scmours... its a load of rubbish. If any company tells anyone they are too old for employment these days, its a breach of the equal opportunity act.

I saw a brilliant young helo pilot passed over for a job. He had about 5000 hours mustering and was trying to break into fixed base work like, ems. He had all his IREX and ATPL, and about 100 hours in single turbines. I talked to the boss about him and he said quite bluntly, all his time is mustering, its all cowboy stuff.... I couldn't beleive what I heard. I tried to explain that anyone who has survived 5000 hours mustering in a piston, is a pretty damn good manipulator in anyones book. No, they reckon he wouldn't cut the mustard transitioning to IFR. What a crock. Its as if IFR is the holy grail.... its not. Its how you are taught and how you train and retain.


I agree with all thats been said, there are some real hangups in helicopter aviation in Australia, and all this senior captain crap, everyones starts from the same point, nothing, then moves on. These people are just trying to protect their sheltered workshops and need to get out there and actually work for their wage.

[MPT]

Good topic Steve, something that's quite close to my heart actually.

As I am no spring chicken myself, I have often wondered whether the reason that "we don't have anything just at the moment, but do keep in touch" had anything to do with the unfortunate date on my birth certificate combined with the number of hours in my logbook. In a couple of cases, something actually did come up just at the moment that the next person arrived on said doorstep, but I digress from the point that I really want to make.

Let's take the cojoe thing from the other side. A number of years ago a fresh new 150 hr pilot (guess who?) managed to get an interview with the people in the high up positions at Esso. This was back in the days that 120hr guys were getting a start down at Longford. To cut a long story short, the job was offered to me (via the cojoe contract company), but after listening to the advice of a lot of (well meaning!) people in the industry, I knocked it back in favour of a PIC job in the tourist industry in a piston machine. The company didn't last that long and I then wandered through a few different operators getting what hours I could, punctuated by stretches in proper jobs just to pay the bills.

A few years later, I came across some of the same people who had taken the other path, a number of rungs up the ladder from me because their resumes say x,000 hrs. It seemed that as long as you had a couple of hundred hours PIC time, employers were willing to accept the total hours. So much for the advice that "You'll end up as a professional cojoe" or "no-one will touch you without PIC time". So, the advice that I would give to anyone contemplating a start with Bristows, CHC or Helicopters Aust. is TAKE THE JOB!!! Any job in this industry which offers the training that these companies do, the opportunity to fly every day and a serious number of hours in your book has to be taken very seriously. You just do not know what will happen down the track, but you have to be ready to seize the chance should it arise.

Enough ranting, I've got an application form to fill out. (BTW, I already have a drawer full of letters bearing Bristow and Lloyd letterheads. I just wish that they would change the wording ocassionally).

MPT

PS To all those who offerred advice and encouragement in my previous post, I've decided to persevere!! Thanks again!!

Hmmm, Think I might have given myself away to a few people!! Oh well, it needed to be said.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: MPT ]</p>

[Off road]

I appreciate Steve's as well as MPT's views but I think we don't have the luxury to turn down job offers in this industry.

Here follows a recent advertisement one that seems to circulate every 6 months and to which I have apply for every time, updating them with my qualifications and hours.
________________________________
HELICOPTER CO-PILOTS
Company "X" requires enthusiastic individuals seeking long term career opportunity. Min. 500 hrs [H] command plus IREX. Preference given to candidates with current ATPL and turbine experience. For application form please contact:XYZ

Here follows a list of my flying qualifications:

Hold a current Australian CPL(H) + ATPL(H) theory + IREX theory(`93)

Hold a current European CPL(H) + ATPL(H) theory + IR (H)rating(`97-'98)

Hold a current European and Australian class 1 medical certificates.

Have flown: piston and turbine helicopters.

Total helicopter flying time, 960 hours (850 hours PIC ) of which 590 hours single- and multi engine turbine including 5 hours night flying.

Low flying and gas turbine certificate.

Completed a Cockpit Resource Management course in the U.K.

Have been involved in sightseeing,surveying, filming and presently flying parttime corporate Ops.
_____________________

So what is wrong with this picture?
Can any of you tell me what it is because Company "X" won't.
Maybe it is an age thing as I am hovering around FL 40 or maybe not.

However I am still looking for that full time position.

Safe flying

__________________
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
__________________

[Steve76]

Funnily enough MPT, I'm an ex-ESSO cojoe. I did my time and got out rather than stay and build 'excessive' copilot time.

Upon looking for a job I could not find any turbine bush work so I packed up and went to a bush job in the NT on a 47. Hard to believe that you can go from a fully coupled, state of art, EFIS equipped 7 Million dollar helo to a 67 model Bell 47 in literally 3 days.
None of the turbine single operators (including HA/HNZ) thought that the cojoe time was good for anything, so the 47 was the only avenue left. I had previous piston time when robbies did not have govenors so the transition back was a challenge, but not too bad.

I always laugh now when I hear advise that is readily offered to new pilots regarding how worthless cojoe time is. As far as I know there is no other way to get to the command seat of a twin without establishing a knowledge and skill base with someone else who can teach you the aircraft. It's not an aircraft you get an endorsement on and then bomb around in solo. The cojoe time should be considered an apprentiship for a captain in waiting. It should never be considered useless or an individual deemed a career copilot because they are occupying the other seat. Most pilots who bag cojoe time as useless have never even sat in a twin let alone tried to understand the complexities of the operating systems.
Nowdays, all my mates from ESSO are working for CHC International or other small twin operators on the Aussie east coast. CHC couldn't get enough of us. The canuks laughed all the way to the bank. They must have snaffled 5 - 10 fully trained IFR pilots with multi-thousand hours on EFIS 76's. The likelyhood of these guys ever returning to work the OZ industry must be pretty low. Companies like CHC tend to retain good employees. Its a sad statement about the Australasian industry.

I know a whole heap of mustering and bush guys who now are desperate to get out of the bush and are unable to get either the turbine or twin time that the ESSO job gave me. I always tell my mates to take the chance of twin time because it's money in the bank. I flew with 10 of the most experience captains in Australian aviation with flying time from the bush, military, Police, EMS and SAR. I saw all the different techniques and styles of flying the aircraft and saw some excellent and not so excellent command decisions. It was, and remains, the most influential 2yrs of my aviation career to date.

For those who are considering a cojoe position know this: It's a hell of a lot easier to jump back than to jump up. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Without trying to **** in his pocket, I want to thank John Ecott for his attitude. I am one of the hundreds of pilots who rung you asking for work and I am grateful to have had the chance to chat and discuss the helo scene with you. The welcoming attitude to new guys by people like you, manages to keeps some people going during the tough times. The mindset is seen on pprune here when highly qualified individuals (Nick, John, paco, IHC,...etc to name just a few) bother to reply to threads for the benefit of all.
Thanks.....I've go to go know I'm getting all teary eyed...... :)

S**t! I'm sorry....two rants in two days..... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Steve76]

....and John thats p*ss in your pocket. Not s**t in your pocket.
Just thought I'd clarify that. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)

[John Eacott]

<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> :) :)

[paco]

My advice would be to get into the twin club anyway you can, and hope that your employer is forward thinking enough to give you the chance to progress (unlikely, I know, but they are around). We all know hours don't count, etc etc, but insurance companies do and they don't live in the real world. Neither do customers (or at least their advisers), if it comes to that. They demand ridiculous amounts of experience for quite elementary work in Canada as well, so our tactic, when we had a good guy with relatively few hours, was to get the customer up with him and defy them to make a complaint.

Don't forget that PIC time is not necessarily Captain, and if you can get them to do the poling turn and turn about, like DanAir used to do, and get the guy in the other seat to sign your logbook, that should help a lot.

Good luck

Phil

[Gibbo]

Interesting thread.......... .I applied for one of two vacant cojoe positions with Esso, through the contracting company, in '97. Had met the Chief Pilot Esso a couple of times and was recommended by him (nice bloke!) I presented with 2000+ RW hours, all turbine, mostly command, ATPL, IREX theory, a number of Command IR renewals (not hard to guess the background).

Didn't end up getting a slot due to being too experienced! Have never heard of having too much experience in aviation.

Bit of a bleat I know, but interesting. Didn't hurt in the long run anyway.

BTW - You back in Vic yet John?

[John Eacott]

:) :) :) :) YES :) :)