The venerable Bell 47

[MBJ]

Does anyone have any idea what the DOC for a UK based Bell 47 should be? Vague ballpark is fine. I know there are very few around now but a PPL friend of mine wants to get one.

[SPS]

I owned a G3B1 in UK a few years back so still have much info and know some of the aircraft still flying. Sorry, I'm not familiar with DOC ?

G MASH was for sale a while back but that might be well out of date(info I mean).

[MBJ]

SPS, thanks for coming back. DOC is Direct Operating Costs: i.e Fuel and maintenance expressed as an hourly rate. Basically all costs that are incurred by actually flying the aircraft. eg the cost of an engine overhaul after 1500 hours can be expressed as an hourly cost.

Not included in here is stuff that you have to pay annually anyway like (usually) insurance, space in a hangar, cost of finance, fat corporate pilot and so on.

I know a DOC can be a bit academic if you buy an aircraft with one hour to go to a major overhaul but it is a useful tool for long term cost projections.

Any info gratefully received. You can e-mail me if you want to keep it private.

[VLift]

I would recommend your friend look very closely at the status of the blade grip problem with that A/C. I don't know enough about the status to give specific information.

[RW-1]

I do not have the details, but the AD issued has effectively grounded much of the 47 fleet until operators can get the replacements, which are (as I understand it) both scarce and expensive.

There are some who believe the AD was yet another Knee-Jerk reaction.

EAA Thinks Emergency AD on Bell 47s Premature

EAA President and CEO Tom Poberezny has appealed directly to FAA Administrator Jane Garvey to rescind Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2000-18-51, which has effectively grounded more than 75 percent of registered Bell 47 helicopters in the United States since it was issued on August 31, 2000.

In his Nov. 22, 2000, letter to the Administrator, Poberezny criticized the FAA decision to issue the Emergency AD. "In the rush to produce the Emergency AD, proper public reviews and research was not undertaken by the FAA Rotorcraft Directorate," he said. As a result, some 970 out of 1,250 registered Bell 47s have been, EAA feels, unnecessarily grounded.

The Emergency AD was issued after two accidents that occurred outside the U.S. were attributed to cracked rotor grips. The Emergency AD mandates a 200-hour interval, repetitive Non-Destructive Inspection (NDI) of all Bell 47 main rotor grips, as well as the retirement of grips after 1,200 hours of service.

In one of the accidents, which occurred in Canada in 1998, a main rotor blade grips failed at about 100 feet and the Bell 47-G2 crashed. The Canadian Aviation Investigation Report (#A98O0214), which was released on June 22, 2000, found that the grip (which had 207 hours since new) failed at the threaded area.

Further, extensive pitting, determined to be a result of the manufacturing process, was found in the area of the thread roots and adjacent surfaces of the threads. As a result of its investigation, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada did not change the 300-hour inspection or the 2,500/5,000-hour retirement intervals.
Because AD 2000-18-51 is an Emergency AD, there was no NPRM, and the FAA never requested comments or blade grip-usage data from U.S. operators.

The Emergency AD cites a 70 percent failure rate of these grips, yet a search of Service Directory Reports in the U.S. shows no failures and only a few cracked grips. FAA’s AD author said the field service data was from Australia.

Based on industry and public concerns over the Bell 47 Emergency AD, EAA requests:

1) Emergency AD No. 2000-18-51 and the AD’s Final Rule (Docket # 2000-SW-35-AD) be rescinded until the FAA applies U.S. Bell 47 historical data to its decision process.

2) The Rotorcraft Directorate hold regional public meetings to address the Bell 47 blade grip concerns.

3) The comment period for the Bell 47 AD, Final Rule, be extended for 60 days, so that EAA can ensure that all Bell 47 owners/operators are informed of the final rule and that they have an adequate period to comment to it. EAA mailed the Final Rule to owner/operators on Nov. 27, 2000.

In the 50-year history of the Bell 47, there has never been a U.S. accident as a result of a cracked blade grip, according to information EAA and other owners/operators have gathered. What's more, there has never been a cracked grip found during the prior blade grip 2,500-hour (wood blades) or 5,000-hour (metal blades) retirement life and inspection process.

"EAA does not understand the need for an Emergency AD based on two accidents that occurred outside the country, given that the U.S, Bell 47 blade grip shelf life and inspection process has had a flawless history," said Poberezny. "EAA believes that the Rotorcraft Directorate has acted hastily and without obtaining necessary input from the operators of the aircraft."

EAA has taken the lead in attempting to bridge the information gap that exists regarding the issuance of Emergency AD 2000-18-51.

On Nov. 17, EAA mailed an in-depth survey to all 1,132 registered Bell 47 owner/operators to determine blade grip history on aircraft maintained per FAA regulations and procedures.

As of Nov. 29, EAA has received 40 completed surveys. The key answers were (1) The FAA never contacted them to determine U.S. blade grip usage history and (2) Not one owner/operator has ever heard of a cracked blade grip on Bell 47s maintained by FAA-certified mechanics.

Don't know the current status, sorry.


------------------
Marc

[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 30 January 2001).]

[Hughes500]

MBJ, friend of mine had one for a while but purchased a turbine and reckoned it was cheaper to run. Buy a Hughes300 cheaper to run more reliable. 47 starter motor about £900, 300 about £250. 47 uses about 18g fuel an hour, 269B 9g 300C 11g. Plus the they still make the bits for 300's, or try an Enstrom.

If you want to play MASH thats fine but don't fly into a headwind !!!!

[MBJ]

Thanks guys. I'd forgotten about the AD!

Perhaps B47 more useful as a greenhouse than an aviation device for the moment. :)



[This message has been edited by MBJ (edited 31 January 2001).]

[SPS]

MBJ

Yes, it seems so obvious now but I just didn't get there - DOC over here is Dept of Conservation (not the heli pilot's best friend by all accounts) and I couldn't get past that!

Sad to hear about the grip thing, its a good old bus and I hope they sort it. Really enjoyed mine after 22, it's the best way to learn how to use a throttle ! I'll find out what it cost p/h and send it to you.

I beleive that FAST at Thruxton are (maybe now were!) running one for training. There are one or two owners in the HCGB that might help too.

[OBERON]

I believe Alan Mann helicopters at Fairoaks Airport in Chobham, Surrey still operate at least one Bell 47. Worth trying a call to them for the DOC. Good luck

------------------

[Lu Zuckerman]

Contact Professor Charles Lumsden at the University of Toronto. He oversee a total and complete website devoted only to the Bell 47. If he can't give you the information you are seeking he will turn you on to somebody who can. He can also give you the total story on the AD.

His email address is [email protected]

------------------
The Cat

[MBJ]

Thanks again.

Lu, that website is all about broadband service and nothing on B47, but thanks anyway.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: MBJ

Sorry about that. Try this

http://vortex.med.utoronto.ca/B47/links.html (http://vortex.med.utoronto.ca/B47?links.html)

------------------
The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 02 February 2001).]

[SPS]

Just to continue with the general theme of B47, a very good article on new life for old Bells in this month's 'Pacific Wings' Mag.

[RW-1]

The FAA tentatively plans to revise AD 2000-18-51,
...probably with a superceding action. Actions that were proposed by the FAA and tentatively agreed upon by the participants at the January 29-30, 2000 meeting include the following:
1. Eddy current should be the required inspection method in the superceding AD.
2. Operators should be encouraged to perform an eddy current inspection as soon as possible even though time credit may be given for a dye penetrant inspection that was conducted under the original AD.
3. The AMOC retirement life of 2500 hours should be retained until parts supply meets demand. At that point the life of the part should be reduced to 1200 hours. (Bell Helicopter recommends all grips be retired at 1200 hours).
4. The FAA will revisit the 1998 Canadian accident by contacting Bell and the Canadian authorities. Additional documented information that has a bearing on this issue will be considered during future actions.
5. The FAA will consider any additional data that might support changing the inspection interval to 300 hours.
6. The superceding AD will require reporting of cracked grips to the FAA.
7. The FAA and industry groups will assemble a list of NDI inspection facilities that can perform the new eddy current inspections.
The FAA hopes that this information provides some additional background for the Bell 47 operators. Progress reports are planned as new information becomes available.
For Further Information Contact Mr. Carl Mittag, Manager, FAA Rotorcraft Certification Office, Federal Aviation Administration, Fort Worth, Texas, 76193-0170; telephone: (817) 222-5170; e-mail [email protected]

------------------
Marc

[RW-1]

EAA on Bell 47 Grip AD

A new Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) regarding Bell 47 helicopter blade grips is a positive first step toward an ultimate solution to keep these vintage rotorcraft operating, according to EAA.
The FAA released the new NPRM on March 29, to update provisions put in place by an Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) last August. Those provisions essentially grounded all Bell 47 operations, as those helicopter owners could not meet the stringent inspection rules for rotor blade grips they required ("Bells Losing Their Grips?" 09-06-00, ANN).
The new NPRM addresses some of those concerns, specifically expansion of the inspection intervals; development of an Airworthiness Concerns Process Guide for the Bell 47; and creation of a new database on the helicopters' blade grips to assist in future rulemaking.
"Overall, the NPRM is a vast improvement over the previous Bell 47 blade grip ADs," said Earl Lawrence, EAA Vice President of Government and Industry Relations. "We're all moving in the right direction, but there are still some key issues that have not been addressed." During the NPRM public comment period, which ends May 29, EAA plans to submit that the NPRM does not address the serious shortage of replacement parts available for the Bell 47, as well as the lack of process to obtain reasons for blade-grip failure.
EAA, which itself flies a Bell 47, had called for less stringent inspection intervals and more realistic times for retirement of the rotor blade grips than called for in the original FAA AD. EAA cited rules established in Australia and Canada, where Bell 47 accidents served as the basis of the AD research. Aviation authorities in both of those nations, using the same data as American officials, concluded longer blade-grip inspection and retirement intervals were suitable.
EAA's involvement in the Bell 47 issue led to a summit meeting at Fort Worth, Texas, in January to discuss the issue. The meeting, held at FAA's Rotorcraft Directorate, included representatives from EAA, Helicopter Association International (HAI) and Bell Helicopter Textron. At that time, EAA continued to emphasize that the AD regarding Bell 47 rotor blade grips, released on Aug. 31, 2000, was produced without proper public research and review, with subsequent research refuting many of the factors cited to produce the AD. EAA became interested in the issue because the Bell 47 qualifies as both a vintage and warbird aircraft. Since entering the active fleet in 1949, Bell 47 helicopters have served both general aviation and the military extremely well.
More than 1,000 of these models continue to operate in the U.S., where there never has been an accident or incident attributed to blade grip failure. Issuance of the AD in August effectively grounded the Bell 47 fleet, causing increased economic hardship for those operators. The problem is compounded since replacement parts are not available, with no plans to begin manufacturing them to meet heightened demand.
Bell 47 operators may submit their comments to the FAA Rotorcraft Directorate via e-mail at [email protected] until May 29, 2001. After reviewing all comments, FAA will issue its final rulings. "We strongly urge Bell 47 owners and operators to become involved and submit their comments to FAA promptly," Lawrence said. "Their involvement is a key element in how the final rule will look."
FMI: www.eaa.org (http://www.eaa.org)

------------------
Marc

[Pat Gerard]

I am looking for a die cast or metal model of a Bell 47 G2. Can someone direct me to the right shop or the right website ?
Many thanks . :)

[Doc Cameron]

Pat,

There was a very nice condition 'full-size' one at space-coast aviation for $86,000 - any good? Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Doc

[Magumba]

There is a web site dedicated to the Bell, the url is a bit long if you run a search for the Bell 47 you'll find it.
On there are listed some 47 models and alot of other good info for the 47 lover.
Happy flying

[The Nr Fairy]

Magumba :

Do you mean this one ?

Beel 47 web page (http://cellmath.med.utoronto.ca/B47/Bell_47.html)

[The Nr Fairy]

As a related matter, Maisto ( http://www.maisto.com ) do a range of die-cast models which include some helicopters.

Check here (http://www.maisto.com/products/products.asp?search=Tailwinds) for more details.

[vorticey]

anyone know of a place to get a float endorcement on a bell 47 in southern QLD australia or northern nsw.

[ditchy]

I'm not sure of this, but I doubt there is such a thing as a float endorsement. Not in Canada anyway. It was part of the training given by individual operators who used floats. Operating a helicopter on floats is not much different than on skids. The floats get in the way of some of the downdrafting air from the main rotors and so lessen some of the lift capability in the hover.You won't get as much off the ground in no- wind situation and cruise speed will be less. If you do start the machine floating free on water, you'll do a couple of lazy revolutions before tail rotor gets up speed and authority is sufficient to hold you straight.
A bit obvious I know, but try not to land on sharp objects as putting patches on is time consuming as they are always on the bottom.
I've also heard that uneven air pressures in your floats can seriously enhance the possibility of ground reasonance in certain types, but I have no experience of that. I can tell you it definitely does with uneven tyre pressures in certain types.
No reason you can't do running takeoffs on water if too heavy to hover.This was done on long ferry flights when loaded up with spares etc and fuel was burned off en route so no problem at the other end with hovering.
Can't think of anything else useful to tell you as I think you can just go out and fly it. Hope this helps.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: ditchy ]</p>

[John Eacott]

Ditchy,

Unfortunately, CASA lives in a different age, and float endorsements are a type by type requirement. We've only just (last week) had the requirement rescinded for individual sling endorsements for any helicopter &gt;2750kg. Next move is to get rid of the 10 hour endorsement requirement for &gt;2750kg <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[BECKER]

Try calling Heli Reef on Hamilton Island. Ask for Brad. they have B47 on floats and an instructor over at shute harbour. Sorry I don't have their phone number on me.
Oscar

[vorticey]

thanks oscar but i was hoping to get one closer than that.

[4dogs]

Ditchy,

"Operating a helicopter on floats is not much different than on skids."

Oh really. And running take-offs on water with Ma Bell's standard float package - right!

And how did you find the floats affected the handling when entering autorotation? Better still, how did you find doing touch down autos onto the water - much the same as skids on grass, I suppose.

Oh, and JE, while I agree that the individual sling endorsements requirement was gross overkill, I wouldn't rush to treat float endorsements the same way.

[ditchy]

I did running takeoffs on water on a what I assume were Bell approved floats on a regular basis doing the long ferry flights required, as did the other pilots with the dozen or so helicopters we had on floats in my company.

I had one complete and sudden engine failure in a Bell 47 on floats. I don't recall any "difference" in autorotative entry or flight either on that day or during the training I did. On arrival at the ground [not water]I got the landing right knowing that a run on meant probably rolling the machine over. In my opinion any competent helicopter pilot would have no trouble mastering the minor differences that floats make to the handling characteristics of any helicopter approved for floats.

These slight variations were treated as common sense airmanship in the country I was operating and were included in the company training. Perhaps in your domocile, 4Dogs, the government does not credit you with either enough intelligence to see the differences or ability to handle them. All I can say is that in Canada, where extensive float operations have been carried out since the early fifties, no one was required to pass a government endorsement requirement for floats and personally I don't recall any incidents where lack of any such requirement caused problems.

Your suggestion that these things can't or shouldn't be done just shows your insularity. If you are indeed flying floats, I would suggest you get in contact with people in other parts of the world and broaden your horizons. You might learn something.

[Steve76]

Well said ditchy,
Don't bother trying to argue with the canuks about water........

[Arm out the window]

If the Bell 47 is anything like the 205 in auto entry, be prepared with a ****load of forward cyclic on auto entry to avoid a big surprise!

Also caution the adverse roll with yaw.

Otherwise, good fun, in my limited experience of float ops.

[Hone22]

Hi all,


Looking for a web site/s with specs and general info on the Bell 47G-3B1.

* Specs
*cockpit/ac photos
*stories
*how they fly

Did a google search and waded through things for 45 odd mins before deciding someone out there may be able to save me poor aching eyes................

Ta ;)

[Flying Lawyer]

Try this link and go from there. Bell 47 (http://cellmath.med.utoronto.ca/B47/links.html)

Fly one if you get the chance - the Bell 47 is a wonderful classic.

[Skycop9]

I am teaching a student to fly in a Bell 47D-1. His past instructor did not use a check list. I made up a check list from recommended daily inspection from the original flight manual and added items that needed to be checked. Does anyone have a checklist from a flight school who uses Bell 47's? If anyone has any please e-mail to [email protected].

I have flown in numerous makes and models and Fly a MD 500C every day. The Bell 47 has to be the best training aircraft I have flown. Any comments welcome.

Skycop9


:rolleyes:

[WLM]

I agree with you statement. If you can fly a B47 and KH4, you can fly anything...Try www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au for your Check list.

If you still have no luck, I forward you our own ops one.

Cheers

[ATPMBA]

Skycop9,

How does it handle compared to the S300C. On my check ride oral Mario B. described the Bell 47 as "a man's machine." He said it's a good machine if you only fly it 2-3 hours a day, I guess it can be high maintence (like a wife).

Do you think it would be accepted by primary students ?

Ken

[Skycop9]

Ken,

It flies alot like the 300C, however, it is a little more stable. It is longer and hovering autos are better than the 300c. Autos are alot slower. Mario B. was right. It is a "man's helicopter"

skycop9::
:D

WLM.

I tried the two web sites with no luck. If you email me I will provide you with my address and postage for the cost of the mailing of the check list.

Thanks,

Skycop9

[misterbonkers]

that's why i fly the bell 47!

ive got a checklist for a G3B, i can email it at the end of the week. im not near a scanner at the mo.

[Darren999]

Skycop-
I agree with all comments above I am lucky to be a ble to fly a G3B1 out of Gloucester, flies very well, auto's are no problems at all. Looking to Go to Allan Manns to see what his hire rates are.
I have a copy of a G3B1. If you e-mail my colleague he owns Dutch Country Helicopters of Pennsylvania where we use 3 D1's for training, he will help you with the check list bits you require, his address is [email protected].
Bell 47 have there own web page and merchandise if your interested Click here: Bell 47 Helicopter Association
Safe Flying

Darren
Stop the bus and let my brother Jack off

[Skycop9]

Darren,

Went to the bell 47 fly in last week. Could not take the students aircraft as the transponder and radio are out. It had to be one of the best airshows that I have been to. I would recommend that anyone interested in helicopters attend the event. The helicopter museum was interesting. I was able to hook up with a pilot who had the Bell 47D1 check list. Thanks for the help.

Skycop9;)

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

am operating a Bell 47 G3B1 with tt 1400, does anyone know of this type of machine with such low TT, has never been rolled up.

[overpitched]

Those hours seem awfully low for a 47. Has it always been a private machine or has somebody put the m/r on a diet ??

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

apparently some "essexs" musician guy owned it from new, he got sick of it and put it in a sea container and forgot about it for 20 something years, go figure.

[imabell]

who can give me the model designator???



http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/47k.jpg

[overpitched]

Must be some sort of 47 variant or similar. I can see the 47 extension housing holding the tail rotor I can see stab bars and I can see the 47 fuel tank vent tubes ???

[nucleus33]

Is that a Bell 47 H-1?

[Flying Lawyer]

imabell

I'd say it's a Bell 47 H-1, circa 1955?

[imabell]

hi flying lawyer and nucleus33.

i was told by the pasenger (a pilot) who gave me the photo that the aircraft was a bell 47k. about 1953.?
i am trying to ascertain this with bell.

i will let you know.

graeme

[Geoffersincornwall]

Looks a bit like an "H" model that I flew in 1979 on a test flight post overhaul whilst working for the UK bell dealer. Had a Franklin engine and was so under-powered that the Flight Manual had a graphic description of how to do a running take-off and landing. When it was sat on the flight line - into wind - I lifted into the hover OK but when I put in yaw pedal to taxi over to the compass base it would sag back onto the ground. No wonder there weren't so many of them around!!!!

[Flying Lawyer]

imabell

I think it's a 47H-1 but, I know nothing about old helicopters and the very little I've learned has only been since falling in love with the Bell 47 after flying a couple at Blue Ridge Helicopters (Virginia) and Dutch Country Helicopters (near Philadelphia) last summer.
Here are some pictures of the H, J and K. See what you think.

Bell 47H-1
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/gallery/bell/bell_47h_3.jpg
The H was a deluxe version of the 47G. Larry Bell is sitting in the middle.




Bell 47J
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/images/bell_47j.t.jpg
In 1957, a Bell 47J became the first Presidential helicopter. (The one in the photo, now in the National Air and Space Museum, Washington.) But not for long. Later in the same year, President Eisenhower had an unscheduled ride in a Sikorsky UH-34, liked the extra cabin space and the 47J was relegated to carrying VIPs and the Vice-President!


Bell 47K
http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/47%20K%20profile.jpg
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/gallery/bell/bell_47k.jpg
The 47K appears to have been a limited production variant of the J, made for the US Navy as an instrument trainer. It had the basic 47J airframe from the firewall back, but with a modified cockpit.

Front view (http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/47%20K%20RT%20front.jpg)
http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/47%20K%20RT%20front.jpg



Where's Lu Zuckerman when you need him?
He probably worked on all three models when they were the latest 'state of the art' helicopter. ;)

FL



(Edit)
After relating a piece of American helicopter history, I thought the least I could do was find something Australian out of respect for you!

http://www.wire.net.au/~burgundy/flightsim/pics/47-3.jpg

This float-equipped J was an experiment by Ansett to provide an airport to city helicopter shuttle between Essendon Airport, Vic. and a floating helipad in Melbourne's Yarra River. It worked and continued for 20 years until 1980, after which Reg Ansett used the helicopter for personal commuting.

[imabell]

fl, thanks,

the photo of the h model looks like it could be the same aircraft as the one in my photo. mine is on the rooftop helipad of the doall tool company in chicago. that is my friend syd at the door.


you win!!!! pm your address.


http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/47s.jpg

i had a ride in reg ansett's 47, years ago obviously, when my dad worked for him.


graeme

[old-timer]

Anyone have any gen' on Mann Helo's Bell 47 ?
worth a try ? I fancy some hours in one !

cheers
:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

Alan Mann and Fast Helicopters both have Bell 47s.
AM's own machine is a G5A but that's offline and won't be available until some time later this year but they have access to a customer's machine, a G5.
Fast will have a B47 available at Shoreham in a few weeks. I don't know which model it is.
Check prices - Fast will probably be cheaper than AM.

Worth a try?
Definitely. :ok: The Bell 47 is a wonderful helicopter.
If I had my time over and money was no object, I'd do my training in a B47.

[RDRickster]

I'll second that. Most of my experience is in the R22, and the governor makes you spoiled. The limited amount of time I spent in the B47 was a real treat. Learning to control RRPM with the collective, while leading with throttle, is a valuable skill. Besides, the visibility and nestalgia in the B47 can't be beat.

[Head Turner]

A Bell 47 is a vastly different machine to the R22. It's wonderfully old fashioned and basic which means that you need good coordination on the throttle/ lever / pedals. It is slow to respond to throttle changes but wonderful in autorotation. Take a good book with you when doing engine-offs, plenty of time to pick a landing place and oodles of RRPM at the bottom. Note that it is much longer than the R 22 so keep space underneath when doing any flaring.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Kuki Helicopters at Gamston have one tel Simon 07775628628 I dont have any further info than that.

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[that chinese fella]

The inertia in the rotor system does provide a false sense of security in the auto, yes it is reluctant to slow down and hence does remain stable, however the other side of it is that it is also slow to speed back up if you inadvertantly let it get on the low side.

The throttle correlation skills add a totally new dimension to basic elementary handling that Robbie pilots dont have to worry about. "Governor off" training in the R22 will teach you nought about flying a Bell 47, in fact the tendency for the R/RPM to increase markedly as you raise the collective from flat pitch to the hover in the 22 is opposite to what happens in the 47 (and most) helicopters

My 2 bobs worth, you will enjoy the challenge

[Darren999]

Chinese Fella.

Just a quick reply on your point of getting slow on the RPM's. I'm an instructor on the B47. If in the decent the RPM's does get a tad on the low side, if you turn both left and right on the decent, watch the RPM build then. If you have to perform a turn on the way down, go to the left, and watch the RPM build. Also with a big flare at the bottom, that helps too...
Also, in the hover you can let the RPM's decay and the D1 model will hold a hover, just, at 250 RPM's

If you do get the chance to practice this you maybe amazed. Hope this has enlightend some..

Regards,

Darren

[old-timer]

Many thanks folks for your replies, I'm going to book some 47 time !!

happy rotoring

[Darren999]

Mr Selfish

Thanks for your points. No I have never seen this from the outside, but I will however try to have a look. I do agree with the points you raised though. I was just stating that I find the D1 a great training aircraft, with a large RPM (Rotor) allowances, which I feel is Ideal for students, especially as you have to control the RPM'S manually. Or more so in an autorotation.

Darren

[Darren999]

Hi Speechless,

Christ! you've had a time in the 47's!! Well for your information the 47 D1 I fly is based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania tail number N4250A.

I have just over 800hrs in this machine, and touch wood has never let me down!!, it handles beatifly. The only problem I have is that it goes through spark plugs like they are going out of fashion!! It has the 210 Franklin engine. So I find I'm cleaning the plugs every 25 hrs, and replacing them at about 75 hrs

If you find yourself over in the USA PM me and I'll tell you where I am.
Regards,

Darren

[Flying Lawyer]

Blue Ridge mountains .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/B47ShenandoahValley.jpg

Shenandoah Valley ......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/ShenandoahValley.jpg

Life is old there, older than the trees ......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/SkylineDrive.jpg

Younger than the mountains, blowing like a breeze .....


(With apologies to the late great John Denver)

Flying a Bell 47G-2 in Virginia http://www.blueridgeheli.com/scenic/N6738DAnimation.gif

[formationfoto]

I have been asked by a four man ownership grouo to try and source them a Bell 47. They are looking for a G3B1 or G4 to be based in East Anglia. Budget is a bit tight at £45k - £50k though I suspect could get to £55k for a low hour / high remaining time model.

Any thoughts / info?.

A couple of the group members also have a Brantly B2B which they might br prepared to exchange (fwiw).

[chopperpilot47]

Check your private messages. I have a G3B1 for sale.

Chopperpilot 47

[helicopter-redeye]

There is a 4A for sale in the UK in Helidata (not mine, just saw it).

£45 to £50K sounds about right for the B47 purchase price.

But the insurance cost! Even for private use when I looked at this last year, was almost as much for a single private user as 'club' usage on an R44.

h-r

[John Abersynth]

Mate,

Contact Mick Clancy at Heli-Muster Pty Ltd at Warnervale NSW in Oz. He will keep you right. They have more 47 bits than Bell. www.helimuster.com.au

[formationfoto]

Thanks for info so far
The 47 in Helidata is priced WAY over the level I was looking at - nice machine though I am told.

[chopperpilot47]

Not sure about high insurance. For two of us it is reasonable at 2,000 per annum.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[helicopter-redeye]

For two of us it is reasonable at 2,000 per annum.

An obvious follow up perhaps, but 2,000 what, where and with whom?

h-r

[chopperpilot47]

The insurance is with RFIB (UK) Ltd, Staple Hall, 87-90 Houndsditch, London EC3A 7NP. The cost was 1,785.00 UK pounds + VAT. The helicopter is UK based at EGBJ. I assume that is enough information for you?

Chopperpilot 47

[JFDI]

Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom WRT the Soloy turbine conversion of a Bell 47?

What does it give? Suggestions so far include improved reliability and reduced cost per hour.

Is it a waste of money?

Is anyone operating such a machine in the UK?

If one was to embark on such a project - would it be sensible to pick up a "re-build project" and go from there?

TIA
JFDI

[chopperpilot47]

I'm really not sure it is worth it. The speed is about the same, the load is round about the same so what advantage is there? In the UK the fuel cost is cheaper but that will probably be offset by maintenance costs. What do you intend to use it for?

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[The Man With No Name]

I suppose it all depends on what you're wanting to do with it as chopperpilot47 says.

I had several of 'em a few years back - did all long-line stuff. They performed like a small Lama - lots of power but, pretty dad-gummed slow on the straightaway. On a warm summer day - at altitude (~9000') - I was outlifting an Arizona state owned 407 and a herd of 206's.

DOC is anywhere from $150.00 on up depending on what all you (or your book keeper) want to throw against it.

When Soloy sold the conversion (STC) to Hiller way back, some parts got hard to come by and any customer service went in the crapper. I'm not sure if it's gotten any better...

...but, It's right up there with the 315's and 316's as my favorite aircraft.

[WHK4]

I have heard that, in Australia, pilots with both Bell 47G and Bell 206 endorsements can then legally fly the Soloy/Bell 47G without having to do a separate endorsement on that machine.

(This would be despite the fact that Bell 47G and Bell 47(T) are shown as separate endorsements in CAO 40.3.0 Appendix IV.)

Can anyone substantiate this?

[imabell]

if you have flown a bell 47 and have the endorsement and have an endorsement for a bell 206 or h500 you can legally fly a 47t with no additinonal training.

look in the cao's on endorsement training.:ok:

[WHK4]

Thanks Imabell, I see it now on CASA's online CAO's.

[ground effect]

A quick question concerning the PERFECT setup/operation of bell 47 correlator units. I realise that when adjusted correctly the twist grip is only a `fine tuning` control input with the cam linkage doing the majority of the work in sync with collective inputs.

In the 47s I have flown so far a considerable amount of throttle needed to be opened while pulling power. And like wise when decreasing power a considerable amount of throttle needed to be closed to prevent an overspeed.

My question is what throttle control inputs would generally be required in a 47 with a PERFECTLY adjusted cam correlator unit (assume ISA at sea level with 2POB). During a conversation with another guy with more time on type it was mentioned that a 47 with a correctly adjusted correlator is more like flying a R22 with the governor switched off - ie when you pull power the correlator `over compensates` requiring the pilot to limit/slightly close the throttle.......and when power is decreased the correlator `over compensates` requiring the throttle to be opened a little.

Thanks:confused:

[genocchio]

Same with me mate. I have flown several G-2's and all require a considerable amount of throttle application.

I was told by the A&P that the corelator on the 47's where just plain poor. Now weather that was the truth or he didn't know how adjust it, i don't know.

[chopperpilot47]

The amount of help the correlator gives varies from machine to machine. I have 5 Bell 47s and they are all different. It definitely helps when you are making small adjustments by moving the collective up and down but for take off power or throttling back for landing you have to use the throttle mainly. It is not a governor.

If there is a virtue it is that you really learn how to coordinate the controls in a Bell 47 which helps when flying other machines. Our students seem to master it without too many problems. If we have an R22 pilot it is a different story. They seem to have real trouble learning how to use the throttle.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[212man]

What's a throttle? ;)

[Nigel Osborn]

After 2500 hours in the 47, I found the following applied. On the ground at take off rpm, you should be able to take off to a 5 ft hover without touching the throttle. The engineers can make adjustments so that this happens.
On moving off you need to slightly ease back on the throttle to maintain rpm, then as you apply more power, the throttle stays put, then open up slowly as more power is needed. The reverse is true when taking power off.
It is quite easy to practice this indoors, sitting on a seat, not in the 47, but be careful as it looks as if you have a bit of a limp wrist!:ok:

[imabell]

when you are about to take off in a 47 with a throttle, (cam, correlator), box a small amount of positive pressure should be maintained on the throttle and a little bit more once the machine settles in the hover.

if you advance the throttle too much and back it of to maintain rpm prior to take of the rpm will always decay. try it.

this is because of the multiple connections between the throttle itself and the carbie, two uni joints, a slider, various rod ends and the cam box. lots of moving parts.

you can see the slack when the engine is running by rolling the throttle back and forth a little and seeing little to no change in the manifold pressure.

the best setup is on the early machines and the tom cat models that had a cable set up. you can raise and lower the collective as much as you like and you will maintain rpm. why they changed to the cam box has got me stuffed.

anyway the bottom line is that they are all different and you just have to get used to it.

[teeteringhead]

anyway the bottom line is that they are all different and you just have to get used to it. I think that's the key.

When I trained on the RAF Sioux, I guess the squadron had 10-12 aircraft; and they were all different! But you got to know which one did what, so I suppose it was at least good at teaching coordination and Nr awareness!

[Double Echo]

Need to source a few components for this type.

Does anyone have any idea's??

Thanks in advance

DE

[rotornut]

Have you tried Trade-a-Plane?
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/protected/static/classified.html

[Ian Corrigible]

Your best bet is probably Bell 47 ASAP (http://www.bell47asap.com/) or THI (http://members.aol.com/ROTORZEN/index.html). Otherwise, try the recently launched Helinetwork (http://www.helinetwork.com/index_gb.php).

I/C

[KENNYR]

Try the Museum of Army Flying, Bristows Helicopters or RAF Wroughton (The last time I was there they were hanging on the walls!!!).

[wg13_dummy]

No chance getting any bits from the Museum of Army Flying. Most of those bits are on XT131!!

[imabell]

what components are you after,

only the motor is different from other models (vo540).

the extra horses to compete against the hiller on spray work,
they absolutely hate overspeeds.

i know where there is one if you are interested.

[breakscrew]

Try Alan Mann Helicopters at Fairoaks, they operate one for training I think. They also used to be Bell agents.

BS

[barrythecat]

Talking of the Bell 47, I wonder if any of you have ever come across some of the 47's I flew in the States. I suppose the reggies may have changed by now but here goes;

N46DH
N182JR
N975B
N6703D

Love to hear where and when you saw them:cool:

[B206B-III]

Pat Gerard,

I live in Australia, and have obtained several very high detail Bell 47G models from a company in Massachusetts USA, over the net.

www.helicoptersonly.com

There is a good catalogue with adequate photographs of your intended purchases for you to look over on the website.

They sell a 47G Police helicopter with a Franklin engine, in blue and white, where you can easily remove the Police placards on the sides, and a Bell 47D with Franklin engine in Mash colours. The interior and exterior detail is stunning.

Lots of other diecast and wooden models of other helicopters, plus a couple of very high quality resin Robbies.

Cheers,

B206B-III

[ground effect]

Have browsed through the flight manual but still require further clarification on this one.

The hydraulic pump on the aircraft IS NOT mounted on the MR transmission assembly.

The hydraulic pump IS mounted on the lower left of the accessory case at the bottom of the engine and is therefore engine driven.

So with this system during autorotative flight (following a total engine failure ie crankshaft motionless) the pump is no longer being driven and all hydraulics are also lost.

Logical to me.

Yes or No?




:confused:

[NickLappos]

Yep, very flyable, not fun, but not a really big deal.

[imabell]

if you were any more correct it would probably hurt.:D

[ground effect]

Thanks for the clarification. After practice autos at engine idle with hydraulics still operational I suspect in a real engine failure the lack of hydraulics and associated heavy controls may come as a rude surprise for many. A minor yet noteworthy detail.:)

[Screwed™]

...didn't they move the pump to the trany for the b47g3b1 and subsequent if memory serves me, wasn't it only the g2's had the engine driven pump?

[KENNYR]

If the donkey stops and you lose hydraulics you won't even know the difference..........adrenalin will take over and you will have the strength of 10 men and full underwear !!!!!

[Nigel Osborn]

The pump was moved in the 47G3B2 because of this problem but as already stated, it's amazing how much strength adrenalin provides!:ok:

[vortexstate]

Once had one of my students (72 at the time ) have a full hydraulic failure in a B47G5 whilst out in the training area on his own.

He did as he had been taught and returned to the airfield, conducting only gentle left hand turns and maintaining a steady attitude, placing the machine on the ground next to the runway surface. The hydraulic pump had sheared off at the gears in the engine, thus causing the situation, and had to be replaced.

He spoke about his ordeal for months to anyone that would listen, and got a big Bravo Zulu from the CFI on a situation well handled.

Moral; if a elderly student can handle this type of situation in a old B47, then there is hope for the rest of us!

[Lama Bear]

When I trained in the 47G3B-1 we did autos hydraulics off. It is not a big deal.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I had an engine stop during an EOL on my b47 conversion as a 200hr rookie- at maybe 500'. A bit of a surprise to find the controls suddenly heavy but as others said above you just do it, worked fine - greaser! I told the instructor the hydraulics had failed and he said nonsense - we realized the problem in the ensuing silence...

Hardly a bright bit of design, but as the '47 was one of the very first they just hadnt thought about everything then, had they? Thats why people love it, its right back to the pioneering stuff in a 47. You'd be flying a Bleriot or similar to find that level of design experience in a plank...

:)

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Want to fly a brand-new Bell 47 fresh off the production line? My spies tell me that you may very well get your chance in the near future.

Everything old is new again.

[B47]

PPF1

Tell us more.

[George Semel]

Hyd. Off in a Bell 47G3b-1 is not bad, I had an engine failure in one some years back. I was hover taxiing at the time. So I was real close to the ground. I didn't recall much feed back guess there was still some pressure in the system. Now what this about the 47 may go back in production? Boy it would be somthing, the machine really has no replacement for the niche jobs it dose and dose well. It was the first FAA certified helicopter, Bell got it certified in 1947 and called it the 47. Almost 60 years ago. One of the reasons I don't have a 47 anymore, I owned a G3b-1 is that parts became both hard to come by and very expensive. My costs got out of control, insurance didn't help much either. But the view, it was worth it.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

I have not been sworn to secrecy about this- and I have heard it from two different (and reliable sources). But I feel as if I'd be betraying a number of confidences if I give all the details this prematurely. But let us consider a couple of things:

1. While Bell's legal department wishes the 47 would just go away, there are many within the company who still love the 47 and don't want to see it die.

2. There are many within the helicopter industry who love the 47 and wish it were in production again.

A deal is supposedly (not "supposably") in the works. Nothing is certain. But the fact that there is even a "deal in the works" is astounding. The bad news is- it may very well fall through. The good news is that there is at least a possibility that we'll see a version of the 47 back in production. The bad news is that even if the deal was signed tomorrow, it would take a long time before the production line was up and running. (I could tell you how many of the first production run are committed already to buyers IF the line gets restarted, but I'd have to kill you.)

Mark my words, Bell will NEVER just sell the T.C. to any old buyer, then send them off with tractor-trailer loads of tooling and parts and a hearty "Good luck with our legacy!" But we shall see.

Now for a bit of speculatin' on the part of the #1 PPRUNE FAN: Everyone wants the classic "goldfish bowl" 47 (D through G-series) to come back. PF#1 would suggest a "better" idea would to bring back the 47H-1. The what? They only made about 38 of this model, s you're forgiven if it's unfamiliar. Kind of looks like a 47J, but with a three-across cabin and, get this, a baggage compartment! Take that, R-22. Of course, the H-model only was produced with the Franklin engine, so an updated drivetrain would have to be bolted in, but how hard would that be?

Ah, but I'm getting dreamy on ya. Speaking of dreaming...

Ironically, I did get to fly a 47 recently. Had not been in one in...ohh...twenty-five years, literally. Had to get in this one and start it and fly it as if I knew what I was doing. And you know what? It all came back, and it was a BLAST! I'd forgotten how much fun they are to fly, sloooooow, sloppy cyclic and all. The current owner has this one up for sale. Almost makes me wish...nah, better just stop that. I could afford it but I'd have a hard time justifying it. And believe me, I've already been down that route a time or two.

But I digress. Anyway 47 fans, keep your fingers and toes crossed. And remember, you heard it here first.

[ground effect]

Come on pprune fan #1. More information please. Names and dates...anything! If this happens how many of the initial production run have been presold?

[Rotor1]

I thought , and I know that I should not think, is the 3B1 had two choices of transmissions the 600 series or the 900 series. the 600 has the standard engine driven pump and the 900 has the transmission mounted pump. That is why the 900 series are so popular on Soloy conversions etc, so check and make sure that you know which model you are flying.
I have to check out my flight manual and I will come with the specs if you like.

I was 40 nm from home in a KH-4 and the pump spline sheared. apart from a sore arm it was not so bad.

[B47]

I'd be more thrilled than most if these rumours were true, but I just can't see it happening.

One of the senior product managers at Bell, Canada told me that a remanufactured new 47 would have to cost in excess of $500k/£300k. There are just so many more parts than on contemporary machines.

There would not be the income stream for Bell from parts to help justify the re-start as there are so many established suppliers of PMA parts for the commonly needed (profitable) items.

I also understand that all the moulds for castings (as opposed to machined parts) were destroyed and that the cost of re-tooling for these is the greatest problem.

Bell are doing a great job of continuing to support the 47 and have committed a considerable sum to making sure the existing stock stays flying. But any re-start would have to be with a design that was considerably modified if there is any chance of reaching the right price point. That needs to be no more than Raven II money and I think unachievable.

You have to appreciate that brilliant as this machine was (and mine is) its large number of lifed components, along with a 1200 overhaul, were the result of designers and regulators simply not knowing the true life in the early days. As confidence and expertise grow in the time of the early 206, the number of lifed components fell dramatically.

To change this you would have to re-certify a whole new design and that means you would not waste the opportunity to change that design substantially at the same time. You'd omit the stab bar, have a panel screen instead of a costly bubble (yes, I know it then wouldn't be a 47...), no hydraulics, etc. i.e. you might as well start again.

I love my 43 yr old ship (the best, I reckon in the UK). There are only 18 on the register now in the UK and five of those don't appear to be flying. She's a brilliant classic and unbeatable as a private machine. But I can't see any profit for Bell in starting production again.

But, I'd love to be proved wrong.......

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

B47- what if it weren't Bell restarting the line? Sure, if Bell were going to do it, a "simple" 47 could cost as much as a 206. So it cannot be Bell. But what if it was another company...perhaps in a location that could take advantage of lower labor and material costs? I have heard that most of the major issues have been solved (including the engine, which is simply astounding).

The biggest question will be: How many orders will it take to restart the line; and then how many ships per year must you sell to keep it going? My feeling is that Bell will not do this deal for a singlular ten- or twenty-ship run. You can be sure that numbers are being crunched heavily as we speak.

Total purchase price is probably not a huge issue; you can get financing for anything these days. Direct operating cost will be the determining factor in whether the 47 can compete with the R-44 as a trainer (given Frank's reported preference for phasing out the R-22 and using the 4-seater for primary).

In the helicopter industry in general, the 47 is perceived as a "real" helicopter while the R-22 is looked at as a "training" helicopter (and not even that, according to Frank's original intent). Will the numbers work? Will the reintroduction of the 47 signal a switch by flight schools *back* to it and away from the R-22? Holy cow, what's next, a reintroduction of the Hiller 12C? The Sikorsky S-51?

Stay tuned!

[Bravo73]

Holy cow, what's next, a reintroduction of the Hiller 12C?

Holy cow, great minds really must think alike: Deja vu? (http://www.pulsehelicopters.com/index.htm)

Although you should probably double check the fuel gauges (allegedly)... :E

[B47]

PPF1

You suggest that thedominant cost of helicopter manufacture is labour and materials. It isn't.

It's certification and the cost of the controls and systems needed for this.

Take the engine basket for a B47 as an example. A few pieces of welded tube that, if it was for as truck, could be made for $300. This part costs over $16,000 from Bell!

I take your point that this could cost less from a manufacturer prepared to take lower margins than Bell, but building helicopters in low labour cost areas of the world is not like building VWs in South America.

If you want the new machine to fly in the U.S., U.K. and Australia for example, the costs of certification will be the same as they always have been = no significant saving.

Your infamous for your wind ups;) so you'll have to give us a bit more info if we're going to take this seriously!

[XT244]

Quote B47 “I love my 43 yr old ship (the best, I reckon in the UK).”

Of course, everbodys own ship ist the best. In this case the best, I reckon in CH.:O
Built May 1966, owner since 1998.

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3170/img05813zq.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img05813zq.jpg) http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3540/tnpict36549ub.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tnpict36549ub.jpg) http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4815/smalldsc14998dv.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smalldsc14998dv.jpg)

Quote B47 “But I can't see any profit for Bell in starting production again.”

However, one possibility for me is for sale all rights and stock etc. to another “Start-up company” for rebuilt.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

B47:Your infamous for your wind ups so you'll have to give us a bit more info if we're going to take this seriously!Hey B47 you can just kiss my a**, mm-kay? I don't *have* to give you anything. What I am telling you is that I have heard from two separate and fairly reliable sources that there is a deal in the works to return the 47 to new production...that in an unprecedented move, Bell is considering selling the T.C. if certain qualifications can be met...that there is already a committment for a dozen or so new ships...and that most of the technical problems with the Bill of Materials have already been solved.

I'm not sure where your expertise in helicopter production comes from. You may very well know more than me. But if a company bought a Type Certificate for a helicopter and the production tooling and spare parts inventory to make that certificated helicopter, certification would not be much of an issue. They really don't even need a Production Certificate (Mooney Aircraft did not have a P.C. for years and years, and only recently obtained one). It is well-known that Bell charges dearly for their parts. Sometimes illogically so. This does not necessarily mean that those are the prices that *must* be charged. It merely means that those are the prices that Bell feels it can get away with.

But hey- believe what you want. Personally, I take everything I read on the internet (and in newspapers for that matter, and certainly everything I might happen to catch on Fox News while surfing right past it) with a huge grain of salt. (Speaking of Fox News, is that dead Aruba girl's mom a full-time correspondent or anchor for Fox now? I see her on the air virtually EVERY time I pass the channel.)

[B47]

Dear PPF1,

Thanks,

That worked!

[av8rbpm]

Does anyone know what ever happened to Bell 47 D (not D1) s/n 1? My theory is that it is rusting in a pile. Would be a shame not to have this preserved somewhere.

[rotornut]

It may be at Buffalo Niagara International Airport. There's a "D" model hanging in the terminal and it may be that one. It's been a while since I've been there so I'm not sure.

[Cyclic Hotline]

This site maybe? (http://cellmath.med.utoronto.ca/B47/history/recon_projects/faltyn/N966B/Pg_01.html)

Ah, the power of Google! :8

[av8rbpm]

I just did some research, and the a/c in Niagara has been moved from the terminal into the Niagara Aerospace Museum. It is actually s/n 5. Looks like the museum is a nice place.

http://niagaramuseum.org/


Thanks for trying!

[KENNYR]

I believe that there is a Bell 47D at the museum of bush flying in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, Canada. It was being restored in 1980'ish. Sorry but I dont know the serial number.

[Darren999]

If it's any help, Serial No 6 is in Pennsylvania, it's a 1947.... it's used for training at the mo.... just some info that's all

Darren

[imabell]

i did some flying years ago here in australia in a d model, franklin powered.

it was a very early model with a splittable bubble, you could take the top part off and fly with the wind in your hair, i was told that it was the earliest machine still flying.

the owner donated it to the smithsonian if i remember rightly.

[av8rbpm]

Thanks for the replies guys. One question for Darren999:

You reminded me of a question I had about N555EN (47D1 s/n6). How is it that this ship shows up on the FAA registry as s/n 6, when the first Bell 47D1 produced was s/n 145? The FAA shows the mfr. as Bell, and the helicopter is in the normal category, but if there was never a s/n 6, how did this happen?

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Ah, 47's. Gotta love 'em! I'm sure everybody would like to claim the "earliest" 47. And maybe some people do have some early examples. But they're authentic in the same way George Washington's "original" axe used to chop down that famous cherry tree is: the handle has been replaced four times and the blade has been replaced twice.

Av8rbpm asks:You reminded me of a question I had about N555EN (47D1 s/n6). How is it that this ship shows up on the FAA registry as s/n 6, when the first Bell 47D1 produced was s/n 145? The FAA shows the mfr. as Bell, and the helicopter is in the normal category, but if there was never a s/n 6, how did this happen?The serial numbers are all over the place, and a "D-1" may have started it's life as something else. MSN 6 is listed as a 1947 47D-1, so it was probably a 47B when it came off the assembly line and modified to D-1 status some time thereafter. See, the 47D-1 didn't gain Type Certificate approval until March of 1949. Oddly, MSN 16 is also listed as a D-1, yet it is supposedly a 1946 airframe, a year earlier than MSN 6. Go figure.

It gets more interesting. Curiouser and curiouser, you might say.

There is listed a "straight" Bell 47 (no suffix), MSN 11, which is listed as built in 1947. And there is also a 1947 47B MSN 11, N9241Z on the U.S. registry. Coincidentally, there is also a 1947 47D-1, N157B which is listed as...(drum roll)...MSN 11! Separate aircraft? How many serial number 11's did Bell build in 1947?

Did Bell run all of the early 47 serial numbers for the different models consecutively? Or did they start over a "1" for each new model? The latter is doubtful, since the only differences between a B, a B-3 and a D were cosmetic or operational (spray set up, for instance).

There is a 1947 47D, MSN 5, N147B. And there is also a 1947 47D, MSN 60, N140B. Complicating matters is a 1947 47B, MSN 58, N138B.

Bell must have really been cranking those 47's off the assembly line(s) in 1946 and 47. What with the military orders and all these civilian ships, they must have been running three shifts!

By the way, the MSN 1 47G was, apparently, built in 1959. But there is also a 47D-1, MSN "001" listed as being built in 1961. (Other people besides Bell have built "47's" and this may be the case with MSN 001. Sometimes they show up as "Bell-Shelby" or something like that in the databases, sometimes not.)

Obviously there's been a lot of N-number and serial number switching going on in the 47 world. This is analogous to the classic car market, I suppose, in which cars are purported to be something special (a rare racing Ferrari, say) but are found to be not exactly that when the various serial numbers are matched up.

I personally know of a "47D-1" with a funky but not personalized registration number (not one of the consecutive N-numbers that Bell usually used). There's an "extra" data plate that says that it was modified to D-1 status in 1962. The regular "Bell" data plate says the ship is a D-1, but there is no entry in the "Date Of Manufacture" column, and the whole thing looks hand-stamped. Friends who know about these things are pretty sure it was not a D-1 at birth. The logbooks only go back to a complete rebuild in the 1970's, so God only knows what happened to the ship prior to that. (Maybe it was built up from parts?)

With 47's, authenticity must be very hard to prove. Owners of those early ships must not want to talk about it too much.

[av8rbpm]

Don't keep us in suspense Gymble, where is the real 47D (not D1) s/n 1?

[overpitched]

Gymble... At least that was funny !!!!

[Rotor1]

Hi all

I am seeking the current running costs for a bell 47 turbo and non turbo

Just DOC's not insurance etc

Thanks in advance

Rotor1

[Southern Cross]

Not quite on topic, but I just did my first solo today on a B47 - G-BAXS at Fairoaks, and from what limited amount I know, they are an outstanding machine and a huge pleasure to fly. :ok:

[cyclic flare]

Looking to do a Bell 47 conversion.

Anybody know who is operating them Midlands - Northern england area or further a field if no one local

Thanks

Cyclic

[Minty Fresh]

I think Kuki Helicopters at Gamston/Retford may have one.

If thats close enough.

Minty

[helicopter-redeye]

There's a B47 in the TAMS hanger at Sheffield (used to be parked next to me in the hanger at Gamston).

Aero Maintenance at walton Wood look after some (they would know about trainers I guess??)

I think Mike Green from Sandtoft does B47 training (think / uncertain)

Hields Aviation at Sherburn certainly do and have a B47G3B1

[flapnfeather]

Enjoy your time in the 47. I little higher workload if you have not spent much time in a 300 or a 22 with the gov switched off. The trick is to listen to the engine. Have fun. :ok:

[unhappyhamster]

To all you seasoned gents out there - do you recall in your experience ever having or knowing of a tailboom strike in a B47 ? If yes, what stage of flying did it happen and what was the damage ?

[flyer43]

Are you referring to the tailboom being struck by the main rotor, or the tailboom striking the ground?

[unhappyhamster]

apologies - main rotor really, but grateful for any info.:)

[Darren999]

I have only heard of boom strikes once the aircarft has touched the ground after and autorotation following an engine failure. People usually hit the ground hard which then inturn causes the blade to felex down then hits the tail boom. The blades do sail quite a bit on a 47, so just something to be aware of. It doesn't seem a common occurance.

Darren

[Ovatemp]

I've seen the result of a heavy auto, the blade just nicked the TR drive shaft. Shaft had to be U/S'd but the blade was OK. Another time a mate walked away from a KH4 while it was running down (rabbit ears still down) in a strong wind and watched the blade sail down and cut the tail off.

[Geoffersincornwall]

I was once visiting a training school in Tehran back in the 70's and watched one of the solo students wack his G2 into the ground after some erratic hovering - when he returned and we inspected the aircraft we found one leg of the yolk casting that holds the tail-tube at the end of the boom was cracked right through!!

G

:{

[petitfromage]

Ive known of 3-4 occurences. All as detailed above.

Heavy landings by students, during engine off landing training (of course, one could argue the instructors intervention was too late but thats a small glasshouse to throw stones in!!).

Only once did the blades actually sever the tailboom itself. On all other occasions the blades flexed enough to strike the aft short shaft of the tail rotor drive. As the aircraft were already on the ground there was no loss of directional control.

[Teefor Gage]

At a training school in the 80's, one B47 G2 cut the T/R drive shaft with the blades due to a heavy EOL. The instructor thought they had got away with it and was winding up the rotors again when he had an R/T call from a colleague to say "The T/R's not going round - is this normal??"

On another occasion, late intervention by the instructor during an EOL and the T/R struck the ground during the flare. T/R and its gearbox separated from the tailboom. The skids were still a metre or two off the ground at this stage and the five or so "landings" were quite interesting. A/C written off but instructor and student unharmed.

[Rusty Bifilar]

This was a Soloy 47 with a heavy pilot and heavy passenger. The forward CG and downwind landing didn't work well together.

MIA99LA133On April 19, 1999, about 0730 central daylight time, a Bell 47-G3B, N32PH, registered to Provine Helicopter Service, Inc., operating as a 14 CFR Part 137 aerial application flight, crashed while attempting a liftoff from a truck mounted platform near Thomastown, Mississippi. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The helicopter sustained substantial damage and the commercially-rated pilot and a passenger reported no injuries. The flight originated about 30 minutes before the accident.

The pilot stated he departed with the land owner for an orientation flight over the tract to be sprayed. Upon completion of the orientation flight, he returned to the "nurse truck" and made an approach to deplane the land owner. He was not content with his landing skid placement on the platform and pulled up for a second approach, when the helicopter started an uncommanded yaw, followed by an uncontrolled rotation. He stated he thought the passenger had stepped on the right anti-torque pedal. He maneuvered the helicopter away from the truck, but the main rotor blades collided with a small tree, the right landing skid hit the terrain hard enough to collapse, and the aircraft came to rest on its right side.

According to the two-man ground crew, as the helicopter was lifting off the platform for better positioning on the platform, they heard a "loud bang similar to a shotgun blast". They saw a piece of the aircraft fly away and the tail rotor stopped turning. The helicopter performed multiple rotations, tilted toward its right side, and impacted a stand of small trees with its main rotor blades. The helicopter came to rest on its right side within the trees.

Subsequent examination of the accident site and interview of the pilot, ground crew, and land owner by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors, revealed that the pilot was making a downwind approach to the platform in order to position the passenger near the ladder to expedite his exit off the platform. The wreckage revealed the throttle was fully open and the right anti-torque pedal was full forward. A 16-inch section of tail rotor drive shaft located in the plane of the main rotor tips was missing and the tail boom truss had sustained a main rotor blade strike. One of the main rotor blade tips (outer 4-6 inches) had witness marks that would be consistent with striking the tail rotor shaft. Except for the aforementioned, the inspectors could find no mechanical malfunctions of the pilot's flight or engine controls, the engine or its components, or the transmission or drive train to the main or tail rotor systems. The FAA operations inspector stated, "It appears that the pilot through cyclic and collective control input caused the rotor blades to make contact with the tailboom and tailrotor drive shaft".

[brett s]

A pretty large percentage of 47's I've seen that were used for ag work had tailboom strikes at some point - the usual story was an autorotation to a soft field with some groundspeed & the pilot using a bunch of aft cyclic after touchdown. 99% of the time the maintenance logs would never show any trace of the incident or repairs though...

[twinstar_ca]

At a training school in the 80's, one B47 G2 cut the T/R drive shaft with the blades due to a heavy EOL. The instructor thought they had got away with it and was winding up the rotors again when he had an R/T call from a colleague to say "The T/R's not going round - is this normal??"


would there not have been a feeling of imbalance felt in the airframe and pedals if the t/r wasn't spooling up with the m/r?? :confused:

[Teefor Gage]

Originally posted by twinstar ca
would there not have been a feeling of imbalance felt in the airframe and pedals if the t/r wasn't spooling up with the m/r??

I'm sure that all sorts of hints were there to tell him that there was a problem. Maybe he was just checking to see if anybody else had noticed!! ;)

[bullshitproof]

Does anyone no where i can get a break away coupleing for a 47 fitted with the large 48 gall crashproof tanks.
kind regards bull****proof

[Flingwing207]

Try Scott's Helicopters in Minnesota, USA:
Scott's Helicopters Website (http://www.scottshelicopter.com/)

[outofwhack]

Is it normal to have cracks in the paint on the underside of B47 metal blades? The cracks I saw were in direction from leading edge to trailing edge and evenly spaced say quarter of an inch apart and repeated from root to approx 1/3 or 1/2 span. I've been assured its just the paint!
Just wondering if all blades go like this or whether its a sign of too many 'to the ground autos' with its extreme coning. ie a training machine. The blades are half life. Can I expect the blades to go to full life without blade retirement/death???

Do most or all blades get to full life?

[Darren999]

Outofwhack- With the metals blades there should be no reason they should not go to time life, 5000hrs I beleive, However, you may want to look round for another set soon if you intend to keep the machine, they are pretty scarce to come by. The cracks you mention,once you have them check are usually OK from leading edge to trailing edge. The ones you don't want run along the blade. You sometimes find the cracks around the root end near the metal brace, close to the grip. Normally the paint on the surface cracks, that's my expirence with woodn blades too, as you say probably due to coing, not all down to Auto's either. I know a couple of places that may help you. Rotorcraft Blades in Texas, and East Coast Helicopters in PA.
All the best
Darren

[outofwhack]

Can anyone tell me why most, if not all, the Bell 47 in Australia have their mixture control lever sawn off in the cockpit.

ie. so that you cannot adjust mixture

Surely a Lyc435 tuned at sea-level is going to splutter quite a bit trying to operate out of a strip at 5000'. Leaning a bit would surely help regain the lost performance wouldnt it? So why are they disabled?

[brett s]

Because they have an altitude compensating carb - all the 47's I flew did anyways.

[imabell]

the mixture control in a 47 is only an idle cut off and only works when the throttle is fully shut.

there is an automatic mixture control, (amc), inside the carburettor that does it all for you. it is an aneroid that changes the jet setting as you climb.

please do not lean out any helicopter. you might get a big fright.

[outofwhack]

Thanks guys, I knew there was an answer.

So they are not really that useful !
They cant save fuel!

I will also assume that they're cut off to remove all chances of confusing it with carby-heat lever as they are rather close arent they!

OOW

[XT244]

...there is an automatic mixture control, (amc), inside the carburettor that does it all for you. it is an aneroid that changes the jet setting as you climb...
That's correct!
Do never lean!
I was flown with my B47G3B1 from 1'400ft up to 15'700ft to the Montblanc without any problems.
All temperatures in green arc ... and NO lean
http://www.adpro-ltd.ch/bilder/20060316megeve/index.htm (http://www.adpro-ltd.ch/bilder/20060316megeve)

[topendtorque]

I was flown with my B47G3B1 from 1'400ft up to 15'700ft

bet you didn't shut it down:bored:

If you want to see spluttering around a '47, then the best thing to do is stick around when the engineer has fitted a replacement amc, that was sent AOG (ah yes, remember that old term of long gone respect), but the gadget was dispatched in a non pressurized cargo hold. heh hehe:{

[ericferret]

I believe there was a fatal accident in the UK with an inflight tailboom strike.
It was a long time ago and would require a search in the AAIB reports to come up with the details.

[outofwhack]

Wow, those photos nearly give me a nose bleed.

I took some skydivers up to 5000' a few weeks back in a 47 and the feeling of loneliness and being too high after they had bailed out was quite unexpected.

Given the risks of parachutes around I wore a safety chute myself - felt good when the ground was so far away.

Being a newbie - dare I ask the question why helicopter pilots dont have parachutes. The old reason of not being high enough to use them does not apply anymore. Base jumpers prove that.

You'd think that Robbie flyers would buy em!

[outofwhack]

Another thing dawned on me while flying around, wondering whats about to go wrong [like a good pilot should?] with my 'new to me' Bell47.

The [sea-level] school I started my initial training with never really mentioned much about the manifold pressure limits as placarded except to say climb with 25inches and cruise with 22/23 inches. I dare say the second school I continued at may have assumed my knowledge of MP limits was complete. Well I am still learning for sure - hence this question....

Is the Bell 47 with Lyc435 (unboosted) bulletproof in this regard or very sensitive to MP abuse?

How would I know if these limits havent been observed in the past?
What does abuse of the figures cause?
OOW

[topendtorque]

Fairly simple answer, not much.
The same engine in other F/W installs runs continuously at around 275 hp.

Your MP limitation applies to the max continuous power ( from memory 220 hp???) that you are allowed to put through the xmon. Therefore the engine cooling system is designed to keep the engine cool at that power rating. - continuously-

Make sure that someone hasn't put a bigger engine cooling fan on it, I.E. from a turbocharged model. we often did in the hot climes to keep them cooler.

One tip is that the main power jet cranks open at about 22.5". keep it a shade under that and you'll cruise at 3 to 4 litres per hour less and only 1 or 2 knots slower.

Another tip, if you have a wet sump engine always keep an eye on the magneto idler gear shaft where it bolts into the accessory housing. if there is one drop of oil seeping from it, do not fly - it will fail inside the next 25 hours.

apart from that they are bulletproof, and magic to oprerate.

[outofwhack]

Thanks for the tips TopEndTorque,

It is absolute magic and I am totally happy with my recent purcase. Its funny how so many people assume I bought a Robinson. I have 1 hour in a Robbo and its not increasing. I just love the 47 always have! I love the noise too but I must admit to having heard nearly enough on day 7 at Oshkosh with two 47s flying overhead dawn to dusk doing joyflights.

Can Robbie owners claim similar enjoyment with a R22/44? I suppose they take a lot less greasing but I dont think they have the timeless looks of a classic like the 47 or 206.


Now to find the magneto idle gear shaft.

I will look for a drip of oil there when I find it - but how clean can one of these engines be anyway?

It does have a wet sump but there always seems to be some oil sprayed around near the dipstick and around the intake manifold. It could be just drops from the bottle when filling. Wish it had the seperate sump! But cleaning does make me inspect quite well.

Next question ... how to polish the bubble and keep it clean?

[phoenix4]

I have a 47g4a with the 540 16 gph 90kns vne no problem ! cruze 80kns 21ins lots of power not to be mixed up with a g3 (no chance of vne small chance of a 60knt cruze) slow at the side of a 44 and not has cheap to keep in avgas as a 300 but a very safe and well loved helicopter .But you need to want a 47 and not becouse you think it would be cheap flyin.

[outofwhack]

I get 75 knots in my G5A some have said because it is quite light at 804kg and thats why it is so fast.

My engineer recommends, for best efficiency, fly high enough to the point where the throttle is wide open. Max throttle height?????

I think the argument is that "that is where the engine is developing its full rated power" and this is supposed to translate to best efficiency. I dont quite understand the logic though.....

.... if you put your foot to the floor on a car you will go fast but I am sure its miles per gallon goes down.

Can anyone explain?
OOW

[John Eacott]

Next question ... how to polish the bubble and keep it clean?

I suspect that this has been asked before! I've always found 210 to be the best cleaner for perspex: always wash dust and dirt off first with plenty of water and a quality cleaner, and dry with a good, clean chamois. Apply 210 with a soft, clean rag in straight, sweeping lines. Never := clean in a circular motion, nor rub hard in one spot to remove a mark: you'll leave a scar in the perspex if you do. Straight lines will give the least chance of sunlight reflecting on the minute score marks that sometimes get left: if the score marks are circular, there will always be a relection ;) Buff the screen with another clean, soft cloth after you've cleaned with 210. Don't forget to clean inside the screen, too: it's remarkable how dirty it can get.

Also, wash with clean water and a clean cloth/chamois after each flight, it's easier to get the bugs off when they're new and soft! It's worked for me for many a year now :ok:

[ShyTorque]

outofwhack,

Being a newbie - dare I ask the question why helicopter pilots dont have parachutes. The old reason of not being high enough to use them does not apply anymore. Base jumpers prove that.


Parachutes were worn in the Whirlwind 10 when going to higher altitudes, it was to do with the possibility of an aircraft fire and the low rate of descent in autorotation.

The Flight Reference Cards gave the abandonment drill to be followed (something along the lines of: Open windows, control frictions full on, disconnect mic/tel leads, undo harness, sit on window sill, facing inwards and roll out backwards from aircraft window).

There was a note at the bottom of that page which worried me quite a lot. It said "Warning. Objects jettisoned from the aircraft in autorotation may go through the main rotor disc." :ooh:

As the pilot, I can't think of another phase of flight when I would want to jump out.....most of us said we would give the cyclic a kick to the left, to try to roll the aircraft way from us.

[sycamore]

OOW,in answer to your Q about FTH,think of it this way;in an ideal world,ideal engine, on the ground at full power(non turbo/supercharged)( full throttle) you would see a manifold pressure of 29-30"/0 lbs,ie static ambient presure; real life- about 27-28"/-1/2 lbs due to the configuration/losses in the induction system. On top of that, you have a transmission limitation which ,may be 26"/-2lbs,which means you shouldn`t actually use more than that.
Now, as you climb at,say 25", you will need to progressively open the throttle to maintain 25", until at some point the throttle is fully open,or you reach your time limit at max power,and reduce to MCP ,perhaps 23". This may be a transmission limit or engine limit. If you continue to climb,maintaining that limit(23"), you will reach an altitude where the throttle is again fully open, and if you go higher still, the MP will start to decrease. The throttle is fully open ,so there is no restricting of airflow into the carb,which is also doing it`s best to maintain the correct mixture. You can of course still climb,but even with full throttle, MP will be reducing; you may now be only able to maintain airpeed/height at one power setting- more likely you will be anoxic !!
I`m reminded of the Test pilot at Boscombe who was tasked to do a height climb in a Sioux,with oxygen, parachute,etc,who wrote that a stopwatch was irrelevant, a calendar would have been more useful!
2" of MP is approximately 2050 ft in altitude, so you can work the figures for the appropriate aircraft.
If you have turbo/supercharging ,you abide by the same principles,particularly
in helos, since you will have a transmission limit to maintain, but you will still reach an altitude where the throttle will be fully open ,and the boost starts decreasing......don`t forget the calendar, oxygen, blankets etc....Syc:ok:

[somepitch]

don't forget the placard thats in the 47 about manifold pressures for 200 hp at various temps and altitudes...that technically becomes your limiting factor. since your transmission is rated for 200 hp of input hp, if you pull 25" MP at 5000' you'll actually be using more than 200 hp from the engine (you're into the 65 hp of spare power for which the engine was de-rated in the first place). i've never heard of anyone worrying too much about that MP placard, especially since the 200 hp limit is not actually stated as a limitation in any of the FM's that i've read.

[outofwhack]

So do you mean they have physically derated an engine from 265 HP to 200HP with a placard?

I always thought there might be some kind of mechanical stop that does it.

How is an engine physically de-rated?

[somepitch]

i don't think i said it was physically de-rated...just rated at less than its full potential so there is some power in the bank for performance loss with altitude. for example, if the engine is putting out 200 hp and working at 75% of its possible output to hit the MP redline, there will be a point at which its working at 100% of capacity to deliver that 200 hp at some altitude/temp. you should never actually be putting 265 hp through the drivetrain unless you're exceeding redlines. its the same idea as the c-20 in a jetranger being 420 hp but only delivering 317 (i think) to the tranny. without that power reserve it would be like...well it would be like a jetbox with a c-18 i guess...(thankfully i never had to experience that)

[Great View]

I bought the last set of grips from Helicopters Spares inc. out of Pennsilvania.
PM me and I'll give you the contact info. He is an excellent source for 47 parts.

[Darren999]

outofwhack.. I may know someone who maybe interested in them. PM me your details and I will pass them on, new there around $6000. PMA made here in the states and easy to get... :ok:

[Taff Missed]

Hi all,

I've tried Google and not had much luck so I thought I'd delve into the wealth of collective knowledge (no pun intended) on the forum.

Highest hours, and or the oldest operational Bell47. I'm looking for the fleet leader.

Any info?

Thanks

Taff

[helicrazi]

Theres a pretty old one based at hawarden, im afriad i dont have the specifics of it though, give Hields a ring, use to be one of their machines! Sorry cant be of more help!

HC

[NNB]

morning all
google heli-Muster in Aus, they might just have the oldest 47 with the highest number of flying hours on it
blue skies
NNB

[Lord Mount]

Give Joey Rhodes a try at the Bell 47 Helicopter Association.


www.bell47helicopterassociation.org (http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org)


LM

[Nigel Bullas]

I have been fortunate to have flown a fully restored B47B model back in the 90's, I believe it was the oldest helicopter still flying at the time. It was owned by the late Doug Daigle President of Tridair Helicopters, John Wayne Airport, California USA. It has now been donated & retired to the air & space museum in Washington DC.

[kevin_mayes]

Hi, Guy's
There's mine G-BFYI 47G-3B-1 ~5570 hours, made in 1965, mind you, we are just about to get it flyable again after brand new engine, gearbox and tail rotor blades (been a long and expensive year).
Kevin.

[somepitch]

i've got a few hours on a g-2 with about 12500 hours on it...i'm sure that's relatively few in the 47 world though...

[Taff Missed]

I knew you'd come up with some leads. Thanks all.:ok:

Taff

[poor southerner]

Any thoughts ?

Are these to old and rare to be practical in the UK. Are they thirstly and heavy. Does it really make a diffecrence to have the larger engine. Spares ? and are the rotables common with the other 47's :confused:

[Tailspin Tommy]

Try this website for 47 info.

www.bell47helicopterassociation.org (http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/)

[Biggles1049]

Here's a picture of one taken at Stapleford
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1031640F.jpg

[Evil Twin]

Hey Guys

Looking for a set of tail rotor blades for a Bell 47, anyone got a set to sell. Even a short time pair will do as we're getting very low on ours.

PM me if you can help

Cheers
ET

[helonorth]

Try www.scottshelicopterservice.com (http://www.scottshelicopterservice.com). If they can't help, they should
know someone who can.

[topendtorque]

To me it looks like less than 2 man days of work.



Fair comment, but there is the small matter of checking of ALL of the relative AD's, and performing a full 100 hrly inspection, even without any other inspection that may be due.

A 100 hrly will take at least two man days on a '47 machine that has absolutely no problems.

If it was an initial into country C of A inspection then in OZ that would be at least $6000.00

You may have done very well.
tet

[topendtorque]

Yes
I like your signature
Like OW:{

[Darren999]

OOW. I have passed your last email onto a company that deals with 47's near me. Once I hear back I will let you know their thoughts... If that helps.. :ok:

[RVDT]

How long is a piece of string?

Couple of questions.................

What was the experience level of the person who put it back together?

Helicopters in total?

On the type? - They are getting a bit "rare" these days.

And how recently? See above.

Do you think 70 hours is excessive? The helicopter would still have to have been released as serviceable, not just "put back together" otherwise you would have done it yourself.

More info would be a help.

With regard to your "maintenance release" if you read the regulations, as the aircraft was effectively disassembled and shipped somewhere. It may no longer be in force.

Read Reg 47 from a CASA viewpoint!

[Ewe Turn]

So you've had the 47 put back together and are now moaning about a lack of useful answers in relation to costs?:confused:

BTW Removal of blades, head, mast, skids etc is hardly what I'd call 'slightly disassembled'

[bullshitproof]

Try a peter garside he has a couple for sale I think his web site is www.peterstoys.com

[saffron]

I need to get recurrent on the Bell 47,anyone know if there is a machine & TRE in the UK or Europe? Thanks

[kneedwondean]

Yes we have one at our school. Based in Chester area, about to be features in Todays Pilot magazine! PM for details(cos I work there and dont want to get in trouble for advertising!!)

[kevin_mayes]

Hi, Mine (g-bfyi) will be ready in few weeks (just coming out of total overhaul) if you want.
Regards
Kevin.

[misterbonkers]

I think Kevin might be able to point you in the direction of a couple of FEs too...

[md 600 driver]

j that wasnt advertising was it? lol

[kevin_mayes]

Wiling to Swap an hour plus or so in my 47 for some time in something different, to get it on my log book...open to offers. Can sort out FE for the 47 if required in return...
Kevin.

[outofwhack]

I started my 47 today in colder conditions than I usually do and the clutch woudnt accelerate the blades much over 60-100rpm (guess).

I didnt try dropping the throttle to let it fully engage as i thought the blades were turning too slow to allow the engine to keep going with clutch engaged.

I did try increasing the engine rpm higher than normal just to try get the blades going faster but no noticeable effect.

I stopped the engine and tried again and it engaged the rotor normally and I had a perfectly normal flight.

Should I be worried? I know some operators who warm their 47 with a propane burner on a cold morning but I thought that was purely for warming the engine. Can the clutch become lazy with cold temperatures?

OOW

[Nigel Osborn]

I've often had to stop the engine & then restart, worked every time. I expect the clutch is getting a bit shiny, so I wouldn't be keen to ignore it for too long.

[outofwhack]

Thx Nigel,

This is the first time I have noticed this happen and nobody else has flown her in the last 100 tacho hours.

From your experience - can I expect this every time I start from now on or does it come and go (and hence take a while for the clutch to get worse).

I was hoping to take her on a long trip soon! Probably 20 flight hours, 10 starts.

OOW

[Nigel Osborn]

I had this happen in a 47J in Tassie in mid winter, snow, ice, etc. The engineer deglazed the clutch after 1 week. In PNG & Darwin this happened in a 3B1 & in a G2 in Sydney; I can't remember how long we put up with it as it does get worse, probably 2 weeks at the most. I think it is caused by poor engagement technique such as incorrect throttle control. It doesn't take that long, winching up the trannie gives you access to the clutch.
I wouldn't like to suggest what you do as all this happened so long ago!

Send me a private msg if you like.

[2bart]

Mike Green senior if you can get him to travel

[topendtorque]

OOW
I'd like to suggest that when you lift the xmon that you also pull the freewheel and check it. The symptoms you descirbe fit perfectly to a freewheel failure soon.

How long since the xmon has been overhauled or a mid point (600hrly) done. One thing for sure is that if you cannot vouch for the exact hours then you should check it. The non negotiable exact time called up inspections are for the grips and freewheel on any '47.

see if it is a lighweight or medium weight freewheel. if it is either try to get a heavyweight unit installed.

you may be able to check the worksheet of the last xmon overhaul, to see if new rollers were installed or at least the actual miked measurements of the rollers and ring.

when the freewheel fails the engine goes straight to valve bounce speed, if you are lucky the fan and or fan belts don't take out any of the flight controls and you descend immediately. it is a (VERY) frightening and disorientating sound.

But as Nigel says it may just be the clutch which could be because of a loose retaining nut, which means check it straight away afore you wreck your fan drive.
tet

[ditchy]

Outofwhack,
I remember the first time it happened to me, very disconcerting, but in my case I was a long way from anywhere in the Canadian bush. Word from engineering was "anytime it happens, shut the engine down straight away, go inside and have a cup of coffee, wait about 10 minutes and try again".
The clutch always engaged normally second time around.

I'm going back to the 70's here so can't remember the exact conditions at which these things were done. This company had operated several 47s of different marks for fifteen years at that point, winter and summer, and had some very experienced guys maintaining them. I was around 47s for three years and never heard of any safety concern with this phenomenon nor can I recall any clutch problems which may have come because of it.

Also, for your info, below a certain temperature on moist days, on the first start of the day, we pulled one set of plugs [left or right, didn't matter] and put them in the oven to warm them. It made starting much easier as icing of the plugs was an occasional problem as well.

[purplebeefer]

Ready , willing and able with mine, TRE and all!
Loosely descibed as south west of London.PM me.Cheers

[saffron]

Thanks for the replies guys,it will probably be in a couple of months ,I'll be in touch

[outofwhack]

Thanks for all the replies on the clutch issue. I have now done 20 tacho hours (30 starts) since that clutch slip occurence and have not had a repeat.
The 600hourly gearbox inspection was done only 100 tacho hours ago so hopefully it was just a bit of stickiness.

On another subject. I recently flew an British ex-miltary helicopter pilot and then his wife and kids. Weeks later he was astonished to hear the Bell47 doesnt have a rotorspeed warning horn and indicated he wouldnt have let me fly his wife and kids if he had known. He recommends one should be fitted if possible. He flies R22s these days where I am sure they really are essential.

Is this overreaction or do 47 flyers in general think it really is a good idea to have a system fitted? Can it be done? How would it be done?

OOW

[Lord Mount]

OOW,
In my humble opinion your passenger was totally over reacting.
I would be worried about his reliance on a warning which, lets face it, could go wrong.
I have my own audible warning devices, I call them ears. My back ups are my eyes when checking the rotor speed dial.
Tune yourself into your aircraft and you will be able to tell if things like RRPM are not where they should be.

Hmmmm......Zen and the art of helicopter flying.
It could be a winner.

[topendtorque]

B47's are high inertia

R22's like many others are LOW inertia.

In that situation an audio and visual cue has proven useful.

High inertia blades keep on flappin man, an' if you haven't noticed that they was slowin' down, as Lord Mount says, then you orta be in the loony bin.

I am dismayed, my ab-initio instructor was also ex Brit Army and there is absolutely no f'n way he would make that comment.

Tell that to your over stressing empiracle dogs body.

The only thing that might help on the '47 panel is a low oil pressure warning, audio or visual.

Did you notice that Frank puts his Oil Pressure gauge right where you can see it, - every time - with the quickest flick of the eye, but the '47, it is somewhere over there.

It is the only thing that keeps you alive.
cheere tet

[whyisitsohard]

Guys, I have looked through the sticky but cant see an uptodate answer, so...

I have a f/w ATPL but fancy adding a PPL (H) to my list of ways of shedding cash. I want to learn on a Bell 47, but can't find one in the UK being used as a trainer. Does anyone know of one? My alternative is a Schweitzer 300 at Bournemouth...not quite the same!:{

david

[Whirlygig]

Have you tried Alan Mann Helicopters at Fairoaks? They certainly used to do PPL(H) training in a Bell 47.

Anyway, there's nowt wrong with a Schweizer!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[whyisitsohard]

Thanks for that. No, I wasnt suggesting anything wrong with the schweitzer, just that I fancied a Bell!

Thanks for the heads up..

D

[helicopter-redeye]

As far as I know FAST at Thruxton and Hields at Sherburn for the 47G3. There are very few in the UK and more in the USA.

[kneedwondean]

The 47 with Hields is now based at the Hawarden Base(Chester), I flew in it last week! PM if your interested in flying it, I'll put you in touch with the right people.

[whyisitsohard]

Thanks all, some good leads!

D

[Dragpin]

Have you thought about buying a B47? We have one coming up for sale soon, be it on the N reg, but shouldn't be a problem with DofT.

You could do your PPL(H) then hour build, have a great deal of fun then sell it if need be.

[whyisitsohard]

Dragpin, who is "we"?

D

[The Nr Fairy]

Since Mike Green left FAST 4 odd years ago, who does the B47 stuff at Thruxton ?

[Darren999]

I could be interested in hiring a 47 I have a a couple of thousand hrs in them. I have been teaching in them for a while...

[bullshitproof]

Hi I have a couple of 47s in huddersfield if thats not two far away.pm me for more.

[N707ZS]

Just appeared on ebay today 130288243943. Needs quite a bit of work!

[bullshitproof]

BA, and the boys from the A team, would have it up and running a couple of hours !

[outofwhack]

Just dont rely on Bell for spare parts. A new blade for a 47 is now US$179000.
Thats each! Up from US$42000 each in 2008

Wonder how that will affect getting insurance for a 47?

Thanks Bell !

[N707ZS]

How much is a second hand bubble if you could get one, that seems to be the major missing part even for a display aircraft.

[TRC]

A new blade for a 47 is now US$179000


Is that one hundred and seventy nine thousand dollars ?

That can't be right - can it?

[Heliringer]

If that price is right there won't be any flying in a few years. Who would pay that to keep one going?

Great machine but had its day

[outofwhack]

US$179,000 definitely is the new price for one main blade. Bit of a hike from US$42k last year.
This is on the Bell website.

I wont be buying any Bell in the future if these are the tricks they play.
I'd prefer they just say they are not available or allow PMA to an outfit who are happy to produce them.

OOW

[topendtorque]

didn't they used to wait for an order totalling 100 sets and then run them off?

Maybe someone needs to knock on the Kawasaki and Augusta factory doors to see if there's any old jigs, and or sub contractors left around.

Or maybe they'll have to go back to doing ten thousand hours??

[rotornut]

A new blade for a 47 is now US$179000
:eek:I nearly fell off my chair! I wonder when 206 parts will get that expensive? Hopefully not for quite a while.

[Rotorhead1026]

Lots of 47's out there and they're still able to scrounge parts ...

http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/


At that price somebody's going to start building blades. It seems that's what happened when Textron jacked up the price of the tail rotor components a few years ago. It's a much loved machine and I don't think it's going away for awhile, even though it seems the manufacturer would prefer that it did.

[EN48]

US$179,000 definitely is the new price


Not exactly good news, but having been on both sides of similar fences, I would have to give Bell some credit for supplying parts for this machine some 60 or so years after its introduction. Not many products have this kind of support.

[kevin_mayes]

So it would be cheaper to buy a whole second hand 47 just for the blades?

[What Limits]

I believe that there are no new blades for the 206, you can only get ones with time on or get the broken ones repaired.

[helimarshaller]

How much is a second hand bubble if you could get one

The Helicopter Museum at Weston-s-Mare tried to locate a bubble for their Sioux a few years back. The UK Sioux has a different bubble to other 47's. The museum ended up getting a standard 47 bubble and fitting that. Lots of gaps and I am certain that the CAA would not allow it to fly if the machine had been airworthy.

Long and short of it was, the only known spare bubble for the UK Sioux is held by the AAC as a replacement for the Historic Flight Sioux.

The museum could not locate a mould either, had they wished to get one made, so looks like this Sioux is destined to remain grounded.

[perfrej]

What!?!

Elaborate! No new blades to have?

/per

[N707ZS]

Thanks Helimarshaller. There's a Bell 47 been sat out at Cordoba Spain for a number of years it might be worth something for the parts by the sound of it.

[nigelh]

New blades for 206 are still being made by bell $64,000.

[rotornut]

My 1967 issue of Flying Annual shows the 47G-5 selling for US$39,500. Perhaps someone can do the inflationary numbers but it's a lot cheaper than the cost of many of to-day's 47 component prices.
A local community college has a 47 J-2. Perhaps they might want to part it out or sell the whole thing for a decent price. If anyone is interested please PM me. However, it sat outside for a long time and then was moved indoors in 1985.

[outofwhack]

BELL SPARES PRICE LIST 2008 VERSUS 2009

2008
-----
047-110-250-021 BLADE,MR (HR) EA US$42,640.00

2009
-----
047-110-250-021 BLADE,MR (HR) EA US$179,047.00

ie US$179,047 per blade. 4.2 times the 2008 cost. A 320% increase

Has my 47 gone up in value or just in insurance premiums.
Bell wants us gone. I bet most 47 owners could never afford a current Bell product. Time to part it out perhaps. My blades are half life US$179000 for the pair! (more than I paid for the whole machine :)

OOW

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Just because they cost $USD179,000 does not mean they are worth $USD179,000. Each. I have a feeling composite blades aren't too far away.

[krypton_john]

You could get the blades made for fraction of that price, but they aren't certified so the ship would be illegal to fly.

Who will stump up the cost of certifying 3rd party blades?

[bullshitproof]

If you go on to peterstoys.com their is a 47 for sale on their good luck

[widgeon]

I was watching an old episode and they had pilot and passenger on the aircraft and then they loaded 2 people on the Litters. Is this possible with the Bell 47 ?

[flyer43]

This would be dependent on which model of the Bell 47 you are talking about, the operating conditions (Altitude and temperature) and the weight of the various people and equipment.
From my own experiences, operating a Bell 47 G2 in the UK many years ago under failry standard ISO conditions, we were very challenged to get airborne at all with two reasonably large people on board (me and the student!)

[griffothefog]

If I recall properly.... A long, long time ago in another galaxy, we used to lift about 600LBS of chemical with about 10 gallons of fuel for short sector high volume spraying...... So, if those figures are near accurate ( brain damage set in years ago) IT WOULD BE FEASIBLE for short distances, if the guys don't share my waistline!! :ok:

[SASless]

Widgeon,

Hollywood does all sorts of neat stuff.....you could load six on the old girl but that would not necessarily mean you were flying anywhere that way.

Me and Ol' Bill Barrel in a 47G2 one fine Summer morning at Redhill had a situation of max revs, collective against the up stop, and not even light on the skids enough to slither away. His comment "Well Shag....wotcha gonna do now?"

It being early and lots of dew on the grass...."We shall go flying Sir!" was my response....wiggled the cyclic about and off to the races we went.

He then said....land in yon Confined Area....which we did after the world's longest most thorough Hi Recon, Low Recon, and approach.

His next comment was classic...."I guess you think we are going flying from here do you Shag?"

We did.....and never toppled the ash of his fag in the process!

The 47 can surprise you with its performance sometimes!

[misterbonkers]

I used to fly a Bell 47 (G-XTUN) and that had the stretcher litter kit. Very handy when you go camping!

[HOGE]

Where is Bill Barrel these days?

[Hilico]

No longer with us, if I remember a line from one of Pat Malone's pieces a couple of years ago. Of course, I hope rumours of his demise are greatly exaggerated...

[flyer43]

Post #2930 on the "What's New in West Africa"
"Leading Edge" posted the following:-
You mentioned....Bill Barrel....what a great instructor. Did my initial instrument training with Bill in AVII round and round the Norwich hold. When it came to doing the initial approach checks and the item "seat belts and no smoking sign on" old Bill, with his fag still going would say "don't worry about that shag, just fly the f...in' aircraft and get after that QDM!!"


I don't have any confirmation of this, but Bill was most certainly one of the most colourful characters that this industry had.

[soggyboxers]

Sadly, dear old Bill, with whom I had the pleasure of joining Bristow and flying the S58T, is no longer with us. It was oft' said that you could tell his real age from the spread of the nicotine rings on his beard :}. 'Twas that which got to him in the end though, and after a lifetime of 60 gaspers a day (?), he finally succumbed to lung cancer a couple of years ago. I believe he died only a couple of months after it was diagnosed, which was when he finally stopped flying. A wonderful man, a great character without whom the world is a less colourful place.

[B Sousa]

For those of you who are MASH fans. The movie location can be found on Google Earth at 34 05 47 17N, 118 44 41 20W There are still some old junkers there for the tourists.
And yes they could haul one on each skid. There are some photos here.
http://www.bell47helicopterassociation.org/HISTORY-LAW-KOREA-VIETNAM.htm

[TunaSandwich]

I remember landing at the MASH site during my cpl training many years ago, quite a buz. Was anybody here a passenger (horizontal) during the war? must have been a surreal experience..

[SASless]

Early days in Vietnam the Bell 47 and Hiller 12E (OH-13 and OH-23) were used by the 1st Cav as Scout Helicopters (what became known as Loach's when the OH-6 came into being).

Imagine going to war in a 47....Bell 47 not the CH-47!

[that chinese fella]

Not only early days 'SAS' - the Oz Army had them over there for years of course - '65 to '71/2.

161 Recce Sqn.

Unit History (http://www.161recceflt.org.au/UnitHistory/unit_history.htm)