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View Full Version : The Slave Trade thrives in SINGAPORE.


Foreign Worker
29th Sep 2005, 22:55
An interesting debate has arisen in another forum, so I thought it might be better aired here in Jet Blast.

Singapore imports slave labor from Indonesia, Sri Lanka, the Philipines, and Indonesia, and pays them (if they're lucky) about SGD300 - 400 (USD177 - 237) per month.
"Generously" let's them have 2 days free of duty in 1 month.
Allows their private employers to lock them up of a night.
Sees these slaves regularly beaten, raped, and even KILLED.

Other civilised, developed countries do NOT indulge in the slave trade, and exploitation of foreign workers, like Singapore does.

For a country that attempts to promote itself as a shining example of all that is right and clean in this world, the Singapore government's human rights record is something that needs openly airing.
Political prisoners have taken a lot of the limelight in the past, however the discriminatory employment practices of abusing Singapore's neighbouring populations is a disgrace!

Singapore, the country that ACTIVELY promotes and encourages slavery!

TheFlyingSquirrel
29th Sep 2005, 23:43
well - the food in Singapore is something else, 2nd only to NYC - listen up - everytime you buy a piece of crap item from China you're indulging in the slave trade. People who have no choice but to abandon their agricultural holdings and move into the cities becuase their small crop is no worth nothing anymore. Modern day China is the biggest travesty of culture ever to effect mankind - the peasantry of China is in the same place as our Victorian Industrial labourers but sadly, it is becoming increasingly difficult to even avoid Chinese manufactured goods as it seems these are often the only ones to be available. You may not be able to change anything, but please be aware.

TFS

airship
29th Sep 2005, 23:49
I've never understood the reticence of the 1st World in joining the "exploitation" of 3rd World workers...

Everywhere else, these workers are performing miracles. In Dubai and elsewhere in the Middle east, they're building infrastructures at a fraction of the price we could ever dream of here. It's a shame that minimum rights and respect aren't enforced though.

It'd be lovely if all these people were allowed visas to come and work in Europe legally. Even the most modest European household would have their own amah, to cook, wash and clean! Ideally they'd have their own room, but an airing cupboard will do I suppose. After all, they'd be earning in a year what it would take them 5 to 10 back home. Put yourself in their position..., you'd put up with it too!

Seriously though, with adequate protections in place, everyone would be a winner. If we could only get over the "immigration" hump. And at some point, they'd probably all go home. There wouldn't be any illegal immigration once all restrictions were removed anyway. Jobs for the boys: As in the Gulf, supervision of guest workers would be in the hands of indigenous staff. There is every possibility that some transfer of knowledge may occur. "Thanks Abdul, 12 x 12 = 144 - I never learned more than the 10 times table!"

:O

Foreign Worker
30th Sep 2005, 00:56
Maybe the USA could use the Singapore Slave model themselves :8

Import a few thousand Sri Lankans to New Orleans, build a "compound" to keep them in of a night, and then have them rebuild the city at around 1/20 the cost of using (illegal) Mexican labour.

Isn't that the problem airship? The local Singaporeans engage these house slaves to do all of that - the cooking, the washing, the ironing, feeding the brats, and occasionally servicing the master (although in theory THAT doesn't happen :rolleyes: ) - because they can't AFFORD the Singaporean rates.

Isn't it more than a little disturbing to some of you, that a developed, leading country such as Singapore, STILL exploits less fortunates by paying and treating them far, far less than they pay their own?

B Sousa
30th Sep 2005, 02:29
Import a few thousand Sri Lankans to New Orleans, build a "compound" to keep them in of a night, and then have them rebuild the city at around 1/20 the cost of using (illegal) Mexican labour.

Forget it, once here you cant get rid of them. New Orleans was a dump before the Hurricane, nothing has changed. Look of the Video going around with the COPS IN UNIFORM looting. Typical of dem folks.

As the saying goes. "If I knew it was gonna be like this I woulda picked my own cotton"

Buster Hyman
30th Sep 2005, 02:30
Are we talking about LCC's here?:confused: :} :ouch:

PA-28-180
30th Sep 2005, 05:11
This is something that gives me a MAJOR blood pressure increase! Here (Philippines) the government actively sends it's citizens to other countries. We have teachers working as maids, engineers working as laborers, etc. Why? Because people can't make a decent living in the land they were born!
This has been going on since the mid 1970's and as near as I can tell, the only people making money with it are the vulture recruiters. They are required by law to supply the recruitee with a return ticket, ensure that the contracted working conditions are as stated, etc...but don't and there's NO oversight worth speaking of.
That said, conditions are so bad here that people are willing to take the risk of being raped, physically beaten or killed because they have to support their family somehow.
It's a terrible situation, but with many governments (like Singapore) turning a blind eye (for the most part) to the conditions makes it even worse.
:mad:

tinpis
30th Sep 2005, 05:32
Oh..... Filippinas dont get raped beaten and generally shat on in the Philippines?
:hmm:

PA-28-180
30th Sep 2005, 05:52
Tinpis...yeah, they do! But what this thread is about is putting up with this type of crap almost as terms of employment! What you are referring to could be said of many countries...including the so called 1st world ones. At least here, their family would be around to protect them...once they "go abroad" there is NO ONE and NOTHING to protect them.
Many end up coming home in a box - either killed by their "employer" or as suicides when they could no longer take it!
This is a serious issue...one with a solution that is beyond my capability to come up with a fix.

Blacksheep
30th Sep 2005, 07:03
There's always more than one point of view.

We've employed Philippina maids for the past twenty years. None were hired through an agency - all were by personal recommendation from other maids and their fares and paperwork were paid for by me. They've been paid around B$300 a month, live in a bright and breezy servants room (with their own en-suite bathroom) at the back of the house and eat the same meals as we do. They get every Sunday off and ours have all been treated almost as one of the family. In my experience this is not unusual for maids; downtown is - like Orchard Road in Singapore - crowded with Philippina maids on a Sunday. In return they clean, cook, wash and do the ironing. Pretty much what most housewives do actually - except that housewives generally don't get Sunday off!

That B$300 has bought a decent house, a couple of acres of land and kept a whole extended family in food and clothing back home for three nice young ladies now. We still exchange Xmas cards with them.

For every horror case that you read in the papers, there are thousands more young women working in perfectly acceptable conditions supporting a family back home while doing decent, honourable and honest work in a foreign country. I'm not happy that there is a country where whole families rely on one young woman's remittances to keep them in food and clothing, but its a cruel world. Condemn the corrupt politicians that create such conditions, but don't knock the brave and hard-working women or those who employ them. In material terms, with a double story concrete house and three acres of arable land in Leyte, Rosalina is already as wealthy as me, regardless of how little she seems to be paid. Oh, and I just paid for the ticket for her bi-annual six weeks holidays

angels
30th Sep 2005, 07:43
Great post Blacksheep!

We employed a Filipina maid in Hong Kong 11 years ago. We paid above the local minimum wage and she got every Sunday off. She had her own en-suite room. The only real cooking she did was for herself because I like to play the chef bit mostly.

We then moved to Singapore and she came with us. We paid her S$800, well above the minimum. Again, her own en-suite room. Like Blacksheep we always paid for tickets for her leave. If ever she wanted a day off for any particular reason we would nearly always let her take it.

When we came back to Blighty, she came with us. It was initially going to be for one month. But she was part of the family and stayed. We didn't have the accommodation or the money to employ her formally so she found a live-in job in the West End with an Arabic family.

She's currently at their summer home in Monaco. But most Saturdays she comes round to see the kids who she dotes on.

She has a Jeepney business near Manila and has just had a flat built in her home town. Also, she now has British citizenship.

Lucy is a slave? Nope.

There are people who abuse their maids but I'm afraid there are bad apples in every basket.

PA-28-180
30th Sep 2005, 08:36
Actually, Singapore & Hong Kong are not really that bad. The countries that have a MUCH higher abuse rate as regards housemaids are Middle Eastern. From reports in the local media, it would seem to be a toss up between KSA and Lebanon.
Blacksheep and Angels: thanks for your postings - you are both correct...given the number of people involved, the abuse doesn't happen to the majority. And yes, the problem is more with the domestic situation here and the sad fact that the government really doesn't give a [email protected] about these people or do anything about/for them should they get into trouble of ANY kind.

BUMPFF
30th Sep 2005, 09:56
Philippino expats also get to pay income tax. Their government sends collectors out around the globe twice a year.

A Philippino politician was once asked why his country was in such a mess. "Well," he said, "After four hundred years of the Pope and eighty years of Mickey Mouse, what can you expect."

chuks
30th Sep 2005, 12:58
We have a lot of Filipinos and not a few Filipinas here in Nigeria. The men I know work as aircraft engineers, particularly as 'Greenies' (avionics technicians). To a man they are cheerful and hard-working.

The women came, mostly, as 'sexy dancers' for some sleazy night club called 'The Godfather' but managed to get out of that and into marriage or at least better jobs.

The unfortunate history of the Phillipines, well, what can you say? But some of the people have managed to rise above that.

If you need something to get worked up over, here in Africa you can still write about slavery, not 'slavery'.

It's instructive how people are fighting for the chance to go be exploited, isn't it? Of course that is one thing that allows these low wages, I suppose.

I am very uncomfortable with the way that China has been allowed to become such a big producer of goods for the West, despite our professed concern for human rights. There is something there that does not add up.

419
30th Sep 2005, 13:18
I am very uncomfortable with the way that China has been allowed to become such a big producer of goods for the West, despite our professed concern for human rights. There is something there that does not add up

IMO, The problem starts with the large retailers, who have to pay big bucks to their management, and dividends to the shareholders.
How long would the CEO of a major firm last, if he told the shareholders " sorry, no divi' this year, as our profits are down because we decided to boycot goods from China, and had to buy more expensive items elsewhere.

If shoppers were offered a pair of Nike trainers for 30 (from China), or an identical pair for 40 (rom the USA), I know which pair most would choose.
Not everyone has enough money to be able to ignore the Chinese made shoes because of their human rights record.

tinpis
30th Sep 2005, 21:40
And there is a success story in Perth.:rolleyes:

Foreign Worker
1st Oct 2005, 05:12
They get every Sunday offGosh ONE whole day EVERY week!
How about you, BS, would YOU be able to handle working as hard as that year in and year out?
It might sound well and good to say that you're paying them a lot more than they could get back in their own country, but the reality is they are being EXPLOITED by you, in Singapore, by not paying them at least the minimum local wage.

Singaporean adults need to start to act like grown-ups, instead of spolit children who can't look after their own houses, cbd's, or kids.

It's about time the Singapore gov't started treating the people for whom they are responsible, responsibly.

Stripholderloader
1st Oct 2005, 11:30
Blaacksheep and Angels............
Why do you only give them one day off a week ??

redsnail
1st Oct 2005, 11:42
Getting one day off a week is quite common for most GA pilots in Australia. They're also doing well if they get paid the Award.

So it's just not maids that get 1 day off a week.

Foreign Worker
1st Oct 2005, 12:37
Is there any government award that those pilots have recompense to redsail, or does the Australian government condone those conditions?

It seems as though the Singaporean government, and its population, (and some other expats residing there) look upon these people who work there as some form of sub-human entity, not equal to themselves.
A life form that can be worked 18 hours a day (and sometimes more), for frequently 6/7 days per week until their "contract" of 2 or 3 years runs out.
Slaves that should consider themselves lucky to be paid in 1 month what their employers earn in a day, in most cases, and far, far less than a Singaporean doing the same work 4 or 5 days each week, with paid public holidays/sick leave, and so forth.

Singapore has been built up from a backwater to the prosperous island state it is today by various methods.
However, today it STILL imports people far less fortunate, to exploit for building, and nurse maiding.
Is it not time for Singapore to lead and prosper by example, rather than through exploitation of its neighbours?

Stripholderloader
1st Oct 2005, 18:58
Redsnail...............
I'm afraid I do not understand your post about GA pilots only getting one day a week off. In anycase two wrongs do not make a right.

The point I am making is that probably everyone reading this thread has at least two days off a week. If you work as a pilot or in ATC then overall you probably do a lot better than that.
What I do find surprising, to say the least, is that two posters on here seem to think that giving someone they employ one day off a week is acceptable; in fact, looking again at their posts they almost seem to be proud of it ???
We all know that one day off a week is not enough, so why not afford these people a little dignity and respect and give them at least the very minimum that you would expect yourself ?
Regards
SHL

redsnail
1st Oct 2005, 20:31
Foreign Worker.
The Award is the legal minimum that pilots can get. It's been ratified through the Industrial Tribunal. If you (as a pilot) get more than 1 day off a week, you're doing well in the general aviation industry.

Strip.
My point is that maids aren't the only people who work 6 days a week. You're making it out to be totally evil that some workers don't get 2 days off.

By the sounds of it, the 2 PPRuNers who dared post about how they have treated their maids treated them very well. It also sounds like the maids have done very well for themselves too.

I certainly don't agree with some of the practices that foreign workers endure. I have seen it in Dubai.

If given a choice I think I would rather be a maid at Angels' place than some of the other options a Philipina has...
:suspect:

Stripholderloader
1st Oct 2005, 20:56
My point is that maids aren't the only people who work 6 days a week. You're making it out to be totally evil that some workers don't get 2 days off.
No I am not..............
Your apathetic attitude is a big part of the problem. It's really quite simple. Ask yourself this question:
Am I happy with having one day a week off ?
If your answer is no then why do you expect someone else to be happy with it ?
If given a choice I think I would rather be a maid at Angels' place than some of the other options a Philipina has...
Actually you do have a choice...........
Instead of taking the easy option and pretending that two wrongs make a right, why not muster some up some backbone and stand up for what is decent ?
Or is that asking too much from you ?

redsnail
1st Oct 2005, 21:05
Hang on a minute.

Just what exactly am I meant to do? Hurl abuse on an internet forum at some people who just happened to have employed maids? Does that make it right?

Picket the Philipino or Singapore embassy?

I prefer to spend my time and effort and cash donating to organisations that are fighting for harsher laws to prevent illegal and underage sex workers in Asia if that's ok with you.

Jerricho
1st Oct 2005, 21:26
why not muster some up some backbone and stand up for what is decent

Woooaaahhhh there my flight progress strip holder loader friend.

Insuinating what you have based soley on a personal observation certainly doesn't warrant you casting dispersions regarding somebody's morals and "spine" if you will.

Tell me, can you describe for me the differences between somebody having a live-in maid/butler/au pair/nanny/housekeeper (you pick the title) to that of some minimum wage housekeeper at a hotel in Vegas or where ever? I can assure you, the conditions some of those people work under certainly border on "slavery".

(At this point, I should probably highlight that I am constantly totally disgusted at how human beings treat and exploit each other at the best of times........as those of you who remember the "Human Beings Suck" thread will attest to )

BTW........

If you work as a pilot or in ATC then overall you probably do a lot better than that.

I think you forgot to include ATSA.

Foreign Worker
1st Oct 2005, 23:34
The Award is the legal minimum that pilots can get. It's been ratified through the Industrial Tribunal. If you (as a pilot) get more than 1 day off a week, you're doing well in the general aviation industry.That was the point I was making redsnail, those pilots have some recourse to legal action via the Australian government, against their employers, if those employers breach that ratified award.
How long do you think an Indonesian/Sri Lankan/Philipino is going to last in SINGAPORE if they complain.
Which is the reason we usually only become aware of this widespread abuse, is when one of them is beaten (to death) or murdered.

Jerricho, I'm certain that any or all of those occupations you nominated pale in comparison to the working conditions of the Sri lankans, Indonesians, and Philipinos employed as fulltime live-in maids and construction workers.

Just what exactly am I meant to do? Hurl abuse on an internet forum at some people who just happened to have employed maids? Does that make it right?

Picket the Philipino or Singapore embassy?Or do NOTHING, even though you are aware of it?
It's far easier just to slip a cheque into an envelope, or have a debit taken on your credit card, and then change television channels so that all is comfortable in your OWN little world.
How about emailing the Singapore government for one - or sending them a letter.

Hopefully this posting on this public forum has made a lot more people aware of the legal slave trade in Singapore (and the Middle East).

When our two previous employers of "maids" shared their experience, they didn't quite expand on the usual "accommodation" these slaves are allocated.
Their rooms are generally not air-conditioned, and are usually out the back of the main residence.
A room that is just long and wide enough to fit a single bed and a wardrobe - horse stall is much larger, a dog kennel a little smaller.
But after all, they ARE a sub-human life form, aren't they! :mad:

Jerricho
2nd Oct 2005, 00:29
Foreign Worker, forgive me if I sounded dismissive in my previous post as to the abhorrent situation you began this thread with. Not for one second do I wish to indicate their plight is anything less than the lowest ebb of what we humans can do to each other. And I feel that nobody else who has contributed so far thinks otherwise.

Although, as we have come to this point..........where is the demarcation between service and slavery?

Pappa Smurf
2nd Oct 2005, 03:09
We all seem to forget that asian countries arent lazy like the rest of us.
Apart from the wealthy etc ,most of them seem to work 6-7 days a week anyway.
Also live in jobs are all inclusive and even if the wage isnt that great its money in the hand they wouldnt have trying to support themselves at home.

its not only asia---ask backpackers all around the world how much they make if all living expenses are included.

DeBurcs
2nd Oct 2005, 06:11
Obviously we can't ALL have it good in the world or you would see Third World poverty being eradicated, just as it could be.

But the Big Players don't want that because it would loosen their grip on the reins.

So if you're on this forum arguing on your keyboard made with cheap Asian parts, then why not just sit back and have another beer instead. All's right in the world.

Nothing you can do.

By the way, the "miracles" being foisted upon the environment in Dubai have a way of leaking, collapsing, toppling, cracking, sinking or being twice as crowded as the agent's model indicated. Not to mention incredibly ugly and full of bad taste.

This is what you get when you pay monkeys one banana a month to do your labour for you. Can't wait to read about how the "underwater hotel" goes.

While we're at it, it's "Filipino."

Stripholderloader
2nd Oct 2005, 10:30
Jerricho..........hold on a minute old chap :D
I haven't based anything on soley a personal observation, I am merely pointing out the facts, of which the main one being that most people are not prepared to do anything about blatant injustices.
We have two posters on this thread who are both able to make life a little better for someone by giving them what most of us take for granted, two days off a week. But they choose not to ? I want to know why they do not afford these lowly paid employees the same amount of time off that they would expect and demand themselves.
Regards
SHL

larssnowpharter
2nd Oct 2005, 12:33
For what it is worth I live part of the year in the Philippines and am married to a Philippina (pinay). Now, we live in Mindanao which is that part where all the travel advisories say you shouln't go. Nice place and nice people.

The fact is that it seems as tho 90% of Philippinos would love to go abroad to work at the proverbial $250 a month. Remember, this is a country where 40 odd % of the population earn less than $2 a day.

I have paid my part in this 'slavery' as well by recruiting as many as 100 to work with me in the Middle East. I might say for a reputable company with an excellent human rights and safety record. I confess to having moral quibbles about it all but believe that - generally - they make a great contribution in the countries they go to and their homeland would sink even deeper into the quagmire created by its political masters but for the remittences sent home.

lars

Foreign Worker
2nd Oct 2005, 13:21
The fact is that it seems as tho 90% of Philippinos would love to go abroad to work at the proverbial $250 a month. Remember, this is a country where 40 odd % of the population earn less than $2 a day.And isn't THAT precisely one of the reasons they (Indos, Sri Llankans, Phils) are exploited?
The money SEEMS fantastic - and it would be, IF they were earning it in THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
But they are not.
And the REALITY of the situation is that most of them - just like you or I - become accustomed to living in the country in which we reside. Which is WHY so many of them then get caught up in taking out loans by loan sharks, to buy something as simple as a Hi-Fi stereo player to allow them some small reward for the years they will spend away from their husband and children.

In the meantime, the ENTIRE family - husband, children, sisters, brothers, mother, father, uncles, aunts, grandparents, and neighbours - now see this sole worker as being a "spring of eternal wealth". Someone who has a "committment" to his/her blood relatives, and for the neighbour, someone of ENORMOUS wealth, working and living in a "rich" country.

They are, in fact, WORSE off, for having accepted this "improved lifestyle"!

But the REALITY is, they will not be paid even HALF of what the local inhabitants would, for doing the same work.
They won't have the protection of the government, nor the right to the same days off.

They will work 16 - 20 hours per day, like they have NEVER had to work before, in most cases - never seeing their family at the end of each day, knowing that they are ENTIRELY at the mercy of their employer....
"We're having a party with 20 of our friends tonight Josephine. Please prepare the food, chill the wine, set the table.
I expect we won't finish before 2 am.
And don't forget little Johnny has to be ready for school at 7 am.
He likes fresh bread for his sandwiches - the bakery opens at 5."

Jerricho
2nd Oct 2005, 14:08
I am merely pointing out the facts, of which the main one being that most people are not prepared to do anything about blatant injustices.

Which warranted questioning somebody's "backbone" and calling them apathetic?

It's obvious you have strong feelings about this, and that's very admirable. But I think you'll find that you aren't the only one.

Blacksheep
2nd Oct 2005, 14:43
Gosh ONE whole day EVERY week!That's a whole day entirely to herself; how many days off does your wife get? The work isn't arduous by any means, compared to what many of the other foreign workers (including me until a few years ago when I went into the back office) do for their daily bread.

...and yes, I do get two days off work at the end of every week myself, but only one of the two can be considered as "free time" as, like most other people who get a two day week-end, I'm busy on household chores on the other day.

When our two previous employers of "maids" shared their experience, they didn't quite expand on the usual "accommodation" these slaves are allocated. A room that is just long and wide enough to fit a single bed and a wardrobe - horse stall is much larger, a dog kennel a little smaller.
But after all, they ARE a sub-human life form, aren't they!

1. My maid's room is 15 feet by 12 and also has an en-suite bathroom/toilet. She has a single bed, wardrobe, dresser and two armchairs. We provide a television and she has her own DVD player and radio. There is an air-conditioner but she doesn't like to use it. She says "Its not healthy" and prefers to use the ceiling fan.

2. Lina is not a slave, in fact she's free to leave whenever she wishes but has chosen to return from holiday and renew her contract with us three times already and is shortly to renew for a fourth time. If she were indeed a slave I think it highly unlikely she'd come back.

3. I really resent your 'sub-human' comment. Lina is our employee, we value her service very highly and she's almost one of the family as is the case for the vast majority of Philippinas (and others) working in the same job. There is no such thing as a 'sub-human' and your statement is not worthy of consideration.

Foreign Worker
2nd Oct 2005, 15:27
More than full, marks to you Blacksheep, for voluntarily re-entering this discussion.
Undoubtedly you are one of the "kindlier" employers. :ok:
The work isn't arduous by any meansIn that case, why can't you - or your wife - do it?
and yes, I do get two days off work at the end of every week myself, but only one of the two can be considered as "free time" as, like most other people who get a two day week-end, I'm busy on household chores on the other day. So why can't you release your maid then?
SHE is NOT "like most other people", is she, if she isn't given "a two day week-end"!

My maid's roomI'm sorry, but she does NOT belong to YOU!
She is a PERSON - not a PET! :mad:

Lina is our employeeAbout now, I'm ready to puke!

Can I call you a "black bastard" - - laughingly?
..........................And think that you will hope that my white ass is telling you the truth?

Actions speak louder than words.

Treat them as you would have your own children treated.
Because ONE DAY, that worm will turn!

But in the meantime, we are ALL God's own children.

RaraAvis
2nd Oct 2005, 15:52
Foreign Worker

...your POINT is WHAT exactly?:hmm: :confused:

Foreign Worker
2nd Oct 2005, 15:59
All pigs are equal.
But some are LESS equal than others (and they need to be constantly reminded of that!....."The floggings will continue, until morale improves!")

RaraAvis
2nd Oct 2005, 16:22
Again, your POINT is ?????????????:confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

Jerricho
2nd Oct 2005, 16:34
*Sigh*

Foreign Worker, your zeal in your beliefs is certainly noteworthy.

I pose my question from earlier again........... the difference between providing a service and slavery? Or are you just crusing for a fight? Perhaps you're a member of the group in society I like to describe as "those who think it's cool to give a shit" and proceed to tell everybody they meet that they care more than others?

Foreign Worker
2nd Oct 2005, 16:39
That YOU are the dimwit demanding superiority because of you financial prowess....
....but is sadly lacking in the ESOTERIC capabilities?? :uhoh:

And so the simple (just to make it easy for YOU ) answer to your singularly repetitive refrain is, "Watch your back, you dumb farker" :ok: :E

NOT YOU, Jerricho, but the poster above.

Jerricho
2nd Oct 2005, 16:46
Seriously mate, what are your thoughts on my question?

RaraAvis
2nd Oct 2005, 17:06
Foreign Worker

It's OK, calm down, easy now......

My maid/employee/worker who earns above the minimum wage and has two days off every week, will fetch your medications now.... :rolleyes:

The abuse and mistreatment of the domestic workers/maids, if and when it happens is criminal and must be punished by law, that's given of course.
Yes, their wages are appallingly low too often, however, the alternatives waiting for them in their own countries are far worse, unemployment, working for a fraction of the wages they are earning abroad or the final and saddest 'option', the sex trade.

Stripholderloader
2nd Oct 2005, 20:01
"Lina is our employee, we value her service very highly"

But not highly enough to give her two days off a week........

You should be ashamed of yourself

SHL

Foreign Worker
2nd Oct 2005, 23:08
the alternatives waiting for them in their own countries are far worse, unemployment, working for a fraction of the wages they are earning abroad or the final and saddest 'option', the sex trade.Not necessarily - the alternative(s) may also also mean being with their family EVERY day, to love and raise their children.
Unfortunately the recruiters dangle the money carrot before these people who lead a fairly basic life - the ONLY stick appearing to be an extended period away from their family. Never any mention of the severe beatings, or the possibilty of returning in a pine box.

For female house slaves working abroad, the sex trade frequently becomes a side line to help pay the loan sharks (in their country of employment) back.
The male construction workers are given not dissimilar treatment to the pow's of the WW2 Japanese war camps during their tenures.
Something the older generation of Singaporeans are familiar with, yet they dish out the SAME treatment to their foreign workers!

Singapore's blatant abuse of human rights must to be stopped.

That does NOT mean stopping the import of foreign labour, but it DOES mean recognising these people as PEOPLE.
Awarding them EQUAL conditions, and making the Singapore government RESPONSIBLE for ensuring that they do receive its full protection.

But it can also start with the aid of the Blacksheeps et al from the grass roots :ok:

Buster Hyman
3rd Oct 2005, 02:52
Okay, apart from a very witty one liner earlier in the thread...(well, I thought it was)...I have followed this one but refrained from commenting until now.

FW I admire your zeal on this topic but, excluding the human rights aspects, I think you might be missing an economic point.
That does NOT mean stopping the import of foreign labour
If you were to award all of the foreign workers with the equal conditions that a local would be entitled to, then the need for the foreign staff would be obsolete. Taking Blacksheeps example, if he was to pay the same as a local, why then would he wish to fork out for accommodation, food & an airfare home?

As I've mentioned, this is an entirely economic aspect of the argument, human rights issues notwithstanding.

Blacksheep
3rd Oct 2005, 02:54
But not highly enough to give her two days off a week........Both my Grandmothers were "In-Service" They got Xmas Day and Easter Monday off - but no other holidays - and were free on Sundays after they'd been to church. They were paid 15 pounds a year plus keep and worked from 0500 to 2100 the other 6 days. Neither considered that to be 'slavery' - these were considered normal working conditions - though we might disagree today. Influenced by philanthropists people had by then ceased shoving kids up chimneys, so they were living in the age of Victorian enlightenment.

In my time in aircraft maintenance I've often routinely worked 60 hour weeks outdoors, in inclement weather. As recently as 1990 I was routinely working 'double-shifts' at a well known airline not too far north of Singapore. Hangar heavy maintenance in the morning followed by Flight Line in the afternoon and evening. I considered 14 hours a day for 23 days in a row, followed by two days off (no overtime pay - those were the rostered hours) to be unacceptable despite the so-called "Expatriation Allowance". I was being exploited, so I left. Lina on the other hand, keeps coming back for more contracts, so we might assume that she is satisfied with her lot.

As I said previously, the workload in our house is light and she does less than most western housewives. There are no children to look after, no school runs and no gardening. She doesn't join in the painting and decorating, juggle the bank account or work at another job outside the home. In fact, compared to the average housewife, she has it easy. And most folks around here who employ foreign domestic workers provide similar conditions.

Compare Rosalina's conditions to those working for less than half her pay in some garment sweatshop in Metro Manila. Do you ever give any thought as to where all our cheap clothing comes from? Not to mention the designer stuff from companies like Polo Ralph Lauren or Gap? Some of those who posted here certainly have and we know its not the 'foreign workers' who have it rough. The really exploited ones are those who stay back home...

Kaptin M
3rd Oct 2005, 04:33
The housemaids are actually a "luxury" item, aren't they.

I didn't employ one during my time in Singapore, however a few of my friends did (Filipinas).
They always seemed to be having some sort of drama back home, the usual remedy for which was to send more $$$'s back.
One of the girls in Singapore was married with two kids and a husband with a Jeepney.
She received an "urgent" call to send $300 or $400 asap, as the Jeepney needed repairs.
Needless to say, she didn't have that sort of cash, so my mate advanced her the next month's salary.

About 6 months later she got another call - same thing...send $$$'s asap to fix the Jeepney.

When she went back home at Christmas (as the majority of them do), she discovered that her husband had shacked up with a girlfriend, and the urgent requests for money were to buy gifts for his new love.

The building construction workers are a different case - they really are treated very poorly, like prisoners sentenced to hard labour, and the accomodation is often a shipping container (you can imagine the temps they reach in Singapore) for 10 or 20, or bamboo and plywood huts, always inside a locked compound.
If you were to award all of the foreign workers with the equal conditions that a local would be entitled to, then the need for the foreign staff would be obsolete. I think there is an undersupply of locals willing to do that sort of work, Buster, but if it soaks up the local unemployed, then all the better.
The "standard" of "workmanship" (actually that's not really the correct word to use in this case) is something that has to be seen to be believed :uhoh: but then again it's all done under the direction of the Singaporean foreman, and inspected by the government authority.
"Yesterday you were a brickie, today you're a plumber, tomorrow you'll be doing the electrical work.." :oh:
Ever wondered why you hardly EVER see any exposed brickwork there (everything is rendered)? I've seen them being constructed - that render hides a multitude of sins!!

Anyway, off track.
They deserve better treatment for doing the sort of work that no-one else wants to do - decent (equivalent) $$$'s to the local workers, and 2 days off EVERY week.

angels
3rd Oct 2005, 07:15
My, this thread has blossomed!

Blacksheep - fully behind you mate. I know where you're coming from.

FW and Mr loader have got a strange outlook on life in that they feel qualified to comment on other people's personal lives because they have an axe to grind.

As Blacksheep has pointed out these 'slaves' are now part of our families. Lucy called on Sunday from Monaco. Her employer, who pays her a lot more than I could ever afford, has decided to spend another week down there. Lucy wanted to talk with the kids. She misses them. She wants to come and see them (and I might add, she misses me and the trouble n'strife as well!).

Not the actions of a slave.

Kaptin - Totally agree with you on the construction workers in Singapore. Appalling.

You also pick up an interesting point in that some 'slaves' rip their employers off! And re the 'two days' off bit, do you get two days off a week? If yes, you're a lucky bugger. When I was working in Asia there were times when I would be working for 14-21 days solid -- usually away from Singers.

Cheers.

chornedsnorkack
3rd Oct 2005, 10:38
Unfortunately the recruiters dangle the money carrot before these people who lead a fairly basic life - the ONLY stick appearing to be an extended period away from their family. Never any mention of the severe beatings, or the possibilty of returning in a pine box.


One would think that if there really is a problem, the families of those who return in coffins would have made sure potentional new recruits are aware of the possibility. Plus the people who escaped beatings with their life and returned home, with or without money... they might advise their children and friends not to do the same mistakes.

Are the Philippinians generally aware of what it means to work in Singapore, or are they generally well aware of what the returnees have told, and make up their mind about whether to accept it?

Stripholderloader
3rd Oct 2005, 12:26
Angels.................

I am not commenting on other peoples personal lives. I am commenting on other peoples willingness to abuse others that they exercise some control over.

In this instance it is yourself and Blacksheep who seem to think that it is acceptable to give someone you employ one day off a week. It is not.
I am also calling into question the appalling double standards that are displayed, knowing that neither of you would find it acceptable if one day off a week was imposed on yourselves.
As I said previously both of you have the opportunity to improve someone else's lot, but you choose not to.
Also there is no point in rambling on about how your grandmother was treated etc etc.......that was then, we are talking now. We arrived at "now" by people doing the decent thing and affording others rights that most of us now take for granted.

So......how about the two of you doing the decent thing and giving your "maids" the very minimum that you would expect yourselves......two days off per week.

Why not give them a small pay rise as well ?
I'm sure they would appreciate it

Regards
SHL

chornedsnorkack
3rd Oct 2005, 12:48
that was then, we are talking now. We arrived at "now" by people doing the decent thing and affording others rights that most of us now take for granted.


Most of the over 6 milliards of humans?

Metro man
3rd Oct 2005, 15:48
You haven't seen real poverty until you have seen third world poverty. Even if you are dirt poor in the west you still have a roof over your head, food and medical treatment. Ever been through the outskirts of Manila, or almost any city in Africa ?

If I was living like that the chance of a job paying me enough to live reasonably on and have something to send home to my family would be a dream. Remember you can live like a king in many countries for US$500 a month.

Yes some of them are treated badly and exploited. This also happens to western girls working as hostesses in Japanese bars.

Overall though the system is beneficial. Imagine what would happen in the Philippines if people couldn't work abroad and send money home. Civil unrest, mass exodus of people, military coup prehaps ?

Jerricho
3rd Oct 2005, 17:41
I am not commenting on other peoples personal lives. I am commenting on other peoples willingness to abuse others that they exercise some control over.

Funny you use the word abuse Stripholderloader. Seems to me that's exactly what you are doing in your post here mate. You have not the first clue of the relationship Blacksheep and Angels had with these people. Not one iota. Stop being such an ass.

Here's another question for you to dodge like my last. Do you jump up and down about that lovely English tradition of having a full time butler??????

panda-k-bear
3rd Oct 2005, 19:58
Am I really the only person in the Western World who has ever had to work 6 days a week? All those people who work in hotels, bars, supermarkets and so on - how many days a week do you all think they work? Sorry but some people on here are really just not in contact with the real world. I'm lucky - I now have a job that gives me weekends off. A lot of people most definitely do not. Sorry but these "slaves" work like most people do in the U.K. The Continent, on the other hand, is a whole other kettle of fish...

Grandpa
3rd Oct 2005, 20:12
.....are worse in these places than in Europe.

For any worker, not only for Philipinos(-nas).

I don't think the ones employed by western expats have the darkest situation.

Abuse is really a problem from some Singapore citizens who relly consider foreign migrant workers as slaves, and I remember you couldn't pass a week there without reading in local newspapers about passport confiscated, endless hours of work, beating, rapes, torture............(at least these affairs went to Justice which is allready a progress, compared to same abuses in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States).

Flybywyre
3rd Oct 2005, 21:47
Seems to me the person "making an ass" of themselves is Jerrico. Obviously most of the posts on here have gone straight over his/her head.
The question is should people be entitled to two days off a week. The answer is yes.
Relationships with employees, butlers etc hasn't got anything to do with it :rolleyes:

Jerricho
3rd Oct 2005, 22:19
Really Flybywyre? Don't give me that crap. You're trying to twist this into something it's not. The part of the discussion I have been contributing to is regarding the vitriol StipHolderLoader has been directing at Blacksheep and Angels (have you actually read the thread up till now, or just gone all internet warrior on us and decided not to bother?) At what point have a said anything about people's entitlement regarding number of days off? NOWHERE!.

Relationships with employees, butlers etc hasn't got anything to do with it

Absolute bullshit. It has everything to do with it, in the context of the discussion thus far. Talk about things going over a person's head.

Nice try mate.......welcome to the "making an ass of yourself" group :rolleyes:

Oh, and if you're going to give me sh*t, at least have the decency to spell my name correctly.

BOFH
3rd Oct 2005, 22:20
Flybywyre

The question is should people be entitled to two days off a week. The answer is yes.

Twaddle. People should be able to work as much as they want (that's want, not can).

What confounds me is that labour is seen as bad - whatever happened to gaining satisfaction in doing a job well? "Oh no, it interferes with my 'lifestyle'", or somesuch. Well, really.

BOFH

Flybywyre
3rd Oct 2005, 22:33
You're trying to twist this into something it's not.
I'm not trying to twist anything. It's you that quite simply does not understand the thread as you have just proved yet again. Also you've made yourself look like an ass again, only a bit of a bigger one this time.
Next time you want to post why don't you ask someone to give you some help with it ?
In the meantime it would probably be best if you shut up and grew up........

Stripholderloader
3rd Oct 2005, 22:41
BOFH................

Twaddle. People should be able to work as much as they want (that's want, not can).

TWADDLE.Someone else that has missed the point. Do you seriously think that people WANT to work 6 days a week ??

SHL

BOFH
3rd Oct 2005, 23:19
TWADDLE.Someone else that has missed the point. Do you seriously think that people WANT to work 6 days a week

Bloody oath.

If that's the terms and conditions, that's it. Not everyone is a jobsworth, you know. I mean, if you employ a maid for five days instead of six, you pay her less - correct? And she wants to earn as much as she can - yes? What is the outcome she will want?

Of course, there are enough people who take your argument, reductio ad absurdum, to think that Utopia is to not work at all. What, a life with no uncertainties, no challenges? Now, that is piteous.

Well, bugger that. This whole discussion began about maltreated maids, for whom I am greatly saddened - when the vast majority benefit from the money they are either able to put aside or send to their families and are kindly treated while they are away from their homelands.

I will have you know that during my first year at university I was working 56 hours per week as well as the full courseload. That was 7x8 at one service station, plus another 8 at another. I had an objective.

Twenty years on, and I still work six days per week. I am relatively well off now, but what ever happened to hard bloody yakka?

Stripholderloader
If you do not get a buzz out of doing work, I pity you.

BOFH

Foreign Worker
3rd Oct 2005, 23:28
I think there might be some recent contributors to this thread who don't fully understand the situation with these workers, imported into Singapore. (BOFH, take note).

They are paid a flat salary of around SGD300 to SGD400 per calendar month.
That is USD177 to USD237 per month.
USD6 to USD8 per day.
They are at their place of work and on call, 24 hours per day, EVERY DAY.

For that flat salary, there are NO LIMITS as to how long the employer will work them. If they are ordered to work 24/48/72 hours straight, then they have to.
There is NO overtime.

Is it really the fair and humane thing to do, to NOT give these slaves 2 days away from their internment, in one week?

Do those of us with the "power" consider we are abusing it, by paying these people USD6 to USD8 PER DAY, knowing that they are at your disposal for the whole 24 hours?
That works out at .25 cents to .33 cents per HOUR!

If THAT isn't slave labour, I don't know what is!

And all done with the full consent of the Singapore Government.

Stripholderloader
3rd Oct 2005, 23:37
BOFH..............

If you do not get a buzz out of doing work, I pity you
Where did you get that stupid idea from ?

If that's the terms and conditions, that's it
It shouldn't be the terms and conditions, that's the whole point of this thread.

BenThere
3rd Oct 2005, 23:48
One option for people who aren't happy with the terms of their employment is: Quit.

If they are under contract, complete the contract, learn the lesson, and don't extend.

Six to eight dollars a day puts one fairly well up the ladder on the world per capita income scale.

Actual slavery is pretty much confined to Africa and some Islamic countries outside Africa, although some may wish to characterize the role of many Muslim women as slavish.

Pappa Smurf
4th Oct 2005, 00:05
I wouldnt swap my 6 on and 6off for anything

We seem to be forgetting different cultures here.

Right or wrong thats how asia has been for ever.Up until the last few years singapore didnt have an unemployment problem,hence the need for imported labour. Now its running at 5.6% and there is concerns.
A majority of asian countries dont have the "dole".Work or get someone to look after you.

The amazing part is that everyone seems happy,a lot different to people in the western world.We need our houses and cars-holidays,designer clothes,paying off our credit cards etc.
They just want to work and live there life,the whole family under a small roof and a moped if they are lucky.

Slave labour or not,these people are better off than they would be at home
Why are all you guys in Asia----more money maybe but unlike others your getting paid more than the locals so not slave labour,but your helping their economy and giving these "imported slaves" a better life

Jerricho
4th Oct 2005, 00:54
I've edited this because it was a serious reply to My Flybywyre's taunts........... But as he can't seem to muster the intelligence to remember which persona he should reply with, I'll save him the bother.

Dummy. Hahahah.

:rolleyes:

Blacksheep
4th Oct 2005, 01:56
Last night I told Lina there some people in the west who thought that she was a slave and that I was a slave driver. She's still laughing.

The thing that many are missing is that the relative value of money has nothing to do with the international banking rate of exchange. Get real. Study Economics. Pay attention to the chapters on free trade and comparative advantage. Lina has a four bedroom double-story detached concrete house in Leyte. In this part of the world this is called a "Bungalow House" - the true meaning of the name, not one of those pathetic tiny single story retirement shacks that carry the name in UK. Her sister and brother-in-law live there and look after their aged mother. She also has three acres of arable land - what we in UK call a "Market Garden" - that provides secondary income. She acquired these things by selling her labour at the going rate in the international labour market.

Meanwhile our company has secured EASA Part 145 approval, is currently being audited for FAR Part 145 and has an order book with plenty of European registered aircraft lined up for heavy maintenance over the northern winter. Lufthansa Technik (Philippines) is also doing a roaring trade as are ST Aero, HAECO, AMECO and the rest. By all means enjoy those lazy five day, 35 hour working weeks in Europe and all that free time and long weekends. You're going to have even more free time soon, as the Germans are already discovering. Over here where folks are ready and willing to put the time in for less (but more valuable) money, your jobs are - like the Sheep himself - moving east. Permanently.

A new age dawns... :ok:

Jerricho
4th Oct 2005, 02:38
Bwaaaahahahahaah.......it all comes clear why Mr Flybywyre and Mr Stripholderloader have come on here and spread their garbage. They're one in the same person.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185140

Why would Stripholderloader sign off that last post as FBW? Same as you did on page 2, and edited it. Dumbest thing ever. Your futher contribution to this thread is going to be treated with the contempt you deserve, oh gutless one. :rolleyes:

angels
4th Oct 2005, 06:14
Magnificent suss Jerricho!!

Since two of these characters (we know its only two now thanks to Jerricho's sleuthing) seem not to understand plain English I'm of the mind its just not worth contributing anything more to this debate.

But sod it.

This thread is not about having two days a week off, it's about slavery. Anyway, to reiterate some points which the Dynamic Duo seem to have forgotten -- Lucy volunteered to move with us from Hong Kong to Singapore and then to the UK where she visits us as much as she can. Not the actions of a slave, but of a member of the family.

Lucy was paid well over double the legal minimum in Singapore but talking with her friends in Singapore (yes, we used to let other maids come in for coffee) who were on the minimum wage, they were largely -- not unanimously -- happy with their lot.

But then that's life isn't it. I imagine there's a few pilots/ATCOs/engineers not happy with their lot. But there are plenty who are.

I am not daft enough to deny that some maids are abused. I've read the newspaper accounts of hags using irons on girls. But the majority are treated decently, don't you get this? They are free to walk at any time.

Look at Blacksheeps posts again. Read them carefully. Lina is laughing at you.

And in fact I've just had an idea. I'm going to fax a copy of this thread to Lucy in Monaco. I think Blacksheep and I know what her reaction to your views will be.....

Ciao.

Foreign Worker
4th Oct 2005, 06:26
She acquired these things by selling her labour at the going rate in the international labour market.Civilsed, developed countires that observe the United Nations Charter of equality of treatment for ALL humans, do not ALLOW the Linas of this world to BE SOLD (traded) or treated at any less than the residents of those civilised countries.
By treating Lina as a lesser (than you) person Blacksheep, your double values are also rather dubious.

The simple fact of the matter is, that although you THINK you treat Lina fairly, you are violating her basic rights by treating her in a LESSER manner than you treat the local residents whose services you use daily - the taxi drivers, the, train drivers, the shopkeepers, the shop assistants.
How would YOU feel if you knew you were being exploited, as Lina is?

Certainly she might well have many material assets back in her home country but consider what she has had to sacrifice.
And look at the bargain you think you've got yourself - a 24 hour on call servant to whom you pay the princely sum of .33 cents per hour.
How GENEROUS of you!

Last night I told Lina there some people in the west who thought that she was a slave and that I was a slave driver. She's still laughing. Of course she would be (when she knows you or "Ma'am" are around).
I wonder how often she and her compatriots cry themselves to sleep, for the life they will NEVER be able to share together with their family and friends back home?

Just that LITTLE extra from you would help her to achieve her goal so much more quickly, and return some semblance of normality to these poor exploited people.

I hope the worm turns one day, and that retrospective action is taken to compensate these slaves.
Like the comfort women of the Japanese during WW2, it may take some time, but once it begins it will avalanche and MAKE those who abused their rights and underpaid them in the first instance, subject to financial penalties.

angels
4th Oct 2005, 06:39
FW - That last post is beneath contempt. To insinuate that Blacksheep is treating Lina like a comfort woman is despicable.

Fax shortly going off to Lucy in her cell in Monte Carlo. I'll let you know what she has to say.

BombayDuck
4th Oct 2005, 07:06
Foreign Worker

Of course she would be (when she knows you or "Ma'am" are around).
I wonder how often she and her compatriots cry themselves to sleep, for the life they will NEVER be able to share together with their family and friends back home?

That was beautiful prose. It brought a *sniff* tear to me eye.

:rolleyes:

Blacksheep

(According to FW) The next time you meet a taxi driver, you really should buy him tickets to visit his family back in India / Pakistan / Bangladesh. Else you will be treating him as a lesser person than yourself! :=

Jerricho

Super! :ok:

RiskyRossco
4th Oct 2005, 07:25
Slavery is such a two-edged sword, as well. Some are "servants", "hired help", working what they believe is their lot, based upon social upbringing and custom, education, economy and circumstances. Everyone needs 3 things to feel happy or accepted or, preferrably, both - someone to love, something to hope for and something to do.
Man does feel best when contributing.
As an employee we are almost never paid what we are worth. Only what the job is worth.
Slaves are the exploited, sure. Circumstances against which we should be ready to take up arms if necessary and, by opposing, end them.
On a par to the physical imposition of slavery, on a fellow human being, is the slavery to one's attitude, thoughts and paradigm. When do we stop being a slave to our own intransigences, moralising, warmongering, self-satisfaction, antagonism, relativism and back-biting and, instead, start to ask the questions that step outside the "sandbox" and look for answers in the wisdom and experiences of others?
Do we start to make a difference in another country across the sea or wil we have a more immediate influence in our own backyards?

419
4th Oct 2005, 07:41
the taxi drivers, the, train drivers, the shopkeepers, the shop assistants.

I don't know which world you live in FW, but it certainly isn't the same one as me.
Get a job as a taxi driver, and see how many days off a week you will get. You could have 2,3 or even 4. The problem is, you won't get paid for those days off. Needless to say, not many taxi drivers get a 2 day wekend.
Shopworkers? pretty much the same deal. A lot are contracted for a 5 day week, and anything over this is overtime, and you decide if you want 2 days off per week. Not too many do though.

Would you that all the "Western" expats working in the middle east are "slaves"?, If not, Why?
During my time in Abu-Dhabi, I was expecxted to work 6 or 7 days a week, and I was paid far less than the UAE national students I was teaching.
The majority of westerners in the M.E. will earn far less than a national employee doing a similar job.
Did I complain? NO. Because I was earning far more working there, than I could ever have hoped to earn back in my home country.

Foreign Worker
4th Oct 2005, 08:05
I live in the same world as you do 419.
The point is, taxi drivers ALL receive the SAME rate for the work done - you don't have the locals earning TRIPLE and QUADRUPLE that of imported cheap drivers, do you

" lot are contracted for a 5 day week, and anything over this is overtime" - PRECISELY correct.

During my time in Abu-Dhabi, I was expecxted to work 6 or 7 days a week,Did you reside in the same place as you worked, 24/7 - on call 24/7?
Of course not!

And to angels. That was a pretty low shot. Never did I accuse Blacksheep of treating "his maid" as a comfort woman.

BombayDuck - the taxi drivers in Singapore are either Singapore citizens, or PR's being paid a SINGAPORE salary.
What you have written is not "according" to me - it was your own incorrect interpretation of persons I gave as examples of people to whom Blacksheep might be prepared to engage and reward at the GOING rate of the country in which he resides (Brunei, if I'm not mistaken).

FBW :} .......oops
Jericho

Kaptin M
4th Oct 2005, 08:11
Do "Civilsed, developed countires sic that observe the United Nations Charter of equality of treatment for ALL humans" exploit cheap forein labour?

You betcha.
In Oz, the good ol' US, Pommie Land, and other places, suss out the local Chinese, Thai, Korean, Indian restaurants.
You'll find the majority of staff there are Uni students, working at "discounted rates"



Jerricho aka Buster Hyman ;)

angels
4th Oct 2005, 09:13
Like the comfort women of the Japanese during WW2,

Yip, I think bringing in comfort women into a thread about maids is a pretty low shot. And note I used the word insinuated.

The fax has been sent. Why don't you acknowledge -- as I acknowledge that there are some maids who are abused -- that there are plenty of maids who are happy with their lot?

And I've just had a thought. Is this all a tremendous troll by one of the JB regulars?? If it is, ya got me Buster!!!!

Stripholderloader
4th Oct 2005, 09:44
Jerricho...........

You really have got S*** for brains :rolleyes:
You supply a link that doesn't work and you suggest I have been edditing other peoples posts ??

Oh......hang on.......I've just looked at the time of your post. aahhh.......obviously been out for a few beers.

Another tip for you. It's wiser to Pprune sober :ooh:

J

419
4th Oct 2005, 10:01
Did you reside in the same place as you worked, 24/7 - on call 24/7?,Of course not!

Oh yes I did, and so do lots of western expat workers abroad.
Civilsed, developed countires that observe the United Nations Charter of equality of treatment for ALL humans, do not ALLOW the Linas of this world to BE SOLD (traded) or treated at any less than the residents of those civilised countries
Do you mean like Turkish workers in France?, or Mexican workers in the USA?, or Chinese workers in the UK, or British workers in the Middle East.

You might not like it, or agree with it, but it is a FACT that imported labour is usually treated differently, and usually paid different rates to local labour.
What do you think would happen if all employees in a certain country suddenly had to start paying the same wage to all staff, regardless of their background?.
Why would anyone then choose to employ a migrant worker, whose grasp of the local language and customs might not be very good.

The result? Zero demand for imported staff. And who would suffer the most? Those people whose only reason for moving away was to earn more money than they could in the native country.

It might not be fair, but who ever said the world we live in is fair.

b.borg
4th Oct 2005, 10:07
SLH You supply a link that doesn't work
Not wanting to creep the thread, but the link did work this morning. SLH signing off as FBW :suspect:
Perhaps FBW got embarrassed and pulled his thread :oh: :suspect: :yuk:

Jerricho :ok:

BombayDuck
4th Oct 2005, 10:15
Foreign Worker

you said

The simple fact of the matter is, that although you THINK you treat Lina fairly, you are violating her basic rights by treating her in a LESSER manner than you treat the local residents whose services you use daily - the taxi drivers, the, train drivers, the shopkeepers, the shop assistants.

Looks to me that he treated her better than a boss would his employee. If you removed your blinkers and looked at the relationship between a family and their maid as "employer" and "employee" as opposed to "slave owner" and "slave", you would see that the benefits that the maid gets in most households - not all - are more than what most "corporate" offices provide.

Me, i'd be rather pleased if my office would provide me free medical, any amount of sick leave, pay for all my travel, give me money when i ask for it (beyond my salary) and NOT call me on Sundays when there is work to be done! :*

oh, and i realized, that even though they may pay just about minimum wage for the maids, we may often forget to include the cost of accomodation and food.

419 - I concur. The link worked for me too, an hour or two ago (as per the date of my previous post). It seems the *originator* of the thread got wise too late :ouch:

Stripholderloader
4th Oct 2005, 10:25
b.borg & 419 & Angels..........

I am not SLH

I am SHL

J

angels
4th Oct 2005, 10:26
Indeed. The link worked fine for me. But then our multi-handled friend thought he could delete it and then slag Jerricho off.

Sorry squire, you were sussed rather well there.

Foreign Worker
4th Oct 2005, 10:37
Did you reside in the same place as you worked, 24/7 - on call 24/7?,Of course not!
Oh yes I did, and so do lots of western expat workers abroad.You are saying you WORKED and LIVED in the exact same rooms, together with your employer - full time?
Please name the occupation and country.
Do you mean like Turkish workers in France?, or Mexican workers in the USA?, or Chinese workers in the UK, or British workers in the Middle East.No, I mean (like) LEGAL workers.
Workers who receive a work visa issued by the government of the host country, in the knowledge that they will be admitted for the precise duration of their contract.
Unless prematurely terminated due to death or "other circumstances".

What do you think would happen if all employees (I think you mean emploERs) in a certain country suddenly had to start paying the same wage to all staff, regardless of their background?. I think it would mean we were starting to think of each other as EQUALS - regardless of class, creed, or color.

Why would anyone then choose to employ a migrant worker, whose grasp of the local language and customs might not be very goodBecause they might be more SKILLED, more RELIABLE, and more EFFICIENT than the local person.
You don't have to be cheaper to get ahead.

The reason for introducing COMFORT WOMEN into the thread, was merely to illustrate that TIME is no guarantee of protection for those who have mistreated and underpaid their "slaves" as has been well documented by the comfort women of Korea, China, and (unsuprisingly) the Philipines.

NOT call me on Sundays when there is work to be done! :*Try doing it YOURSELF (or your wife) you lazy layabout.

In countries where "maids" are paid the local rate, there are very FEW people who can actually afford them - except perhaps on a casual bais.
It is ONLY because they are NOT paid the "local rate" that they are affordable by the average local salary earner.

419
4th Oct 2005, 10:48
(I think you mean emploERs)

I actually meant Employers:ok:

I never said I "WORKED and LIVED in the exact same rooms, together with your employer." your original question was
Did you reside in the same place as you worked, 24/7 - on call 24/7?,Of course not!

To which my answer is still YES. I worked at a small airport in the United Arab Emirates, (privately owned by one of the ruling family), and my accomodation was attached to the hangar. Any time day or night, any of the aircraft was required, the engineers were also required.

redsnail
4th Oct 2005, 10:48
You're clearly fired up about this and I admire your zeal. However, to be honest, you really haven't helped your cause by attacking those folks you wish to alter their behaviour.

Perhaps a different tack might be called for. What have you done to highlight these conditions?

When trying to garner support for a cause, it is generally accepted that honey will attract more flies than vinegar.

I am certain your motives are fine but your method needs reviewing.

Buster Hyman
4th Oct 2005, 10:48
Seems like the Kaptin's been on the whacky tabbacci again!:rolleyes: I've never been to Canada & I'm not jerricho! I don't have a split personality....Yes you do!...No I don't!:suspect:

Sorry angels! It's in KM's mind!:ok:

Cheers

FBW...err...SHL...err...Jerr...umm...The Phanto...oh sod it!:(

PS...I did see Jerricho's link...before it was deleted...excellent detective work young man!:ok: Makes me wonder why Captain Grumpy hasn't blown that cover...like he has in the past!:suspect: ....:} :ugh: :ouch:

chornedsnorkack
4th Oct 2005, 11:10
I think it would mean we were starting to think of each other as EQUALS - regardless of class, creed, or color.

Do you treat equally people who live and work at your home and people who live at the other side of the world and never would get the visa or the ticket price to go where you are?

Foreign Worker
4th Oct 2005, 11:25
No chornedsnorkack.
I TRY to treat them BETTER because I realize that by doing so gives THEM more self confidence than if I were to treat them the way they have been brought up to expect.

Occasionally making oneself "flinch" a little by giving MORE than what you thought you would initially give is - in my opinion - good for the heart and the soul.
BOTH of you benefit.
You because you find you have to make do with a little less (for a brief time).
Them because they receive an unexpected bonus that brings those stars so much closer to Earth for them.

Flybyvvyre
4th Oct 2005, 12:37
Now wait I'm not Stripholderloader I mean I'm not Flybywyre I mean I don't know who I am. I must be pretty dumb to think that simply deleting the thread means that nobody would have seen it.

A thousand apologies to the thread originator for the drift.