CRM courses

[Michael Jupp]

can anybody out there give me some info as to where i can do a CRM course (and how much it would be)?????
cheers

[HeliEng]

If I remember rightly Guildhall do a CRM course.

Not sure on the cost though, sorry.

"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

[Qualityman]

Try contacting Mike Green at Fast Helicopters Thruxton.

Spoke to him this morning and he is due to run an Internal course very soon and was looking for Bums on seats. Not sure of all the details but wouldn't hurt to ask.

01264 772508. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Droopy]

Try ACA on 01428 727207; they may be offering a course somewhere with an extra place.

[Helinut]

I believe that you can do a course at any outfit that is CAA Approved for CRM. However, it makes a lot more sense to do one that is directed towards helicopters, if you can.

CRM originally arose in connection with multi-crew operations, and ways of improving the way they work together. Most non-offshore RW pilots are single crew, of course, so the multi-crew style CRM is less relevant. I did try to seek out guidance and information about "single crew CRM" a while ago for continuation training, but drew a blank with the CAA and others. The only thing I did find was a US seminar pack produced jointly by the FAA/HAI, but I could not get hold of a copy.

If anyone knows of a CRM course for single crew ops that deals with helicopters, it would be good to know of it.

[Michael Jupp]

thx guys
yes it does seem a bit odd doing a CRM for single pilot ops ?

[Droopy]

Helinut:- I believe Bristows do one but it's quite expensive.

[widgeon]

CRM for schizophrenics LOL.

[jonahUK]

I have just recently attended a course which was set up by a Police ASU. The unit was the Central Counties Air Operations Unit in Birmingham. This was done by a guy called Craig Guis, (probably spelt wrong), who is an ex military US army helopilot.The course was superb and very interesting. Worth giving the CCAOU a call. Can't help with the number at the moment as I'm at home and the details are at work.

[Droopy]

Jonah; it is indeed an excellent course, but I don't think it's CAA accredited - though it's better than many that are. It's Geis btw.

[Fortyodd]

Gas_producer,
You can contact Craig by e-mail and ask when he's on this side of the pond next. [email protected]
I was also on the CCAU sponsored course and it is well worth attending.
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Helinut]

The CCAOU style course comes highly recommended - I haven't done it but lots of police pilots and observers who have say it is excellent. I believe that it is rather directed towards police aviation (which is effectively multi-crew), and may well not have the CAA stamp of approval. Since an Approved course is a pre-requsite for UK public transport this is a shame.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: gas_producer

Cockpit Resource Management
Author(s): Thomas Turner
ISBN: 0070656053
Format: Softcover, 34 illus. , 224 pages.
Pub date: May 1, 1998
Copyright: 1998
Price: $34.95 US
Product Line: McGraw-Hill Professional
Related Titles by Category:
• Transportation -- Aviation / General


Quantity:


DESCRIPTION
With this invaluable handbook, private pilots can optimize their flying performance -- by using the same life-saving CRM skills and techniques that have helped airline and military pilots dramatically improve safety.

BACK COVER
Professional CRM techniques customized for single-pilot operations! Cockpit Resource Management: The Private Pilot's Guide is the first manual to transfer lifesaving CRM techniques to the private pilot/single operator environment, showing you how to: handle distractions; recognize and circumvent potential emergency situations; reduce cockpit workload; be aware of hazardous attitudes; sharpen your judgment; improve decision-making skills; increase situational awareness. The key says Turner, is toset realistic goals for each flight, and to prioritize these goals to maximize safety. Step by step, Turner demonstrates how, through a clear and logical presentation of CRM skills and techniques, from preflight to landing. Case studies provide vivid examples of CRM in action. This fully updated second edition includes the latest safety regulations and accident studies, recent and pending changes in regulations, and a greatly expanded teaching chapter.

CONTENTS


Introduction.
Why Cockpit Management.
Goals of the Flight.
The Decision Making Process.
Factors Affecting Decision Making.
Phase of Flight: Takeoff.
Phase of Flight: Climb and Cruise.
Phase of Flight: Descent, Approach and Landing.
Risk Factors. High-Risk Situations.
The Safety Equation.
Situational Awareness and the Judgment Chain.
Teaching Cockpit Management. Related Products


The Pilot's Radio Communicatiions Handbook




Controlling Pilot Error




Airplane Ownership




American Aviation




Controlling Pilot Error

Log onto the internet with the key words Cockpit Resources Management. There are quit a few resources available.

Try this website as it lays out the course.

<a href="http://ns1.house.com.ar/users/hf_crm/transcan1.html#crm1" target="_blank">http://ns1.house.com.ar/users/hf_crm/transcan1.html#crm1</a>

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>

[ExRRPM]

To all you rotary guys not employed in an Offshore company, you may be surprised to know that CRM for helicopter pilots, both single and multi-crew, is available to you individually or for your companies.
I instruct CRM for a JAA/CAA/FAA approved CRM training organisation. We run CRM courses for Helicopter pilots and companies. For information please email me at:
[email protected]
Regards to all.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[The Nr Fairy]

I need to do an accredited CRM course, to be able to take up paid freelance work on S/E helicopters here in the UK.

I've found an old thread - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19188 - and ASA and the "aviationteamwork" web site are actually the same people.

Mike Green isn't doing any in the near future, it appears Bristow's don't do CRM courses any more - the web site says they only do JAR IR courses - and I've mailed the CAA asking for a list of accredited course providers, but I'm not holding my breath.

Does anyone out there know of such a provider ? My requirement is reasonably urgent as I want to get the boxes ticked as soon as possible so I can start telling my missus I'm actuallt getting paid to fly, rather than the other way round !

[engineoff]

Try CSE @ Oxford (if that's what the're still called). Went to a 1 day course down there a couple of years ago which was actually rather good. Don't have a number though I'm afraid..

[Helinut]

Also dredged up from the past are two in the Surrey area:

John Barker @ Hitec Resources - Fairoaks 01276 6855056
London Helicopters @ redhill were also talking about doing courses specifically for Helo pilots single crew

[[email protected]]

Hmmmmmm..crew resource management training - for single pilot ops.....are you going to start arguing with yourself in the cockpit or undermining your own authority with snide comments. I suppose you can always sort out any cross cockpit gradient issues in the debrief.
But do you trust your crew? are they loyal to you or are they subverting your power as Captain. Ah... the loneliness of command.

Maybe Gollum does single pilot CRM courses.............

[The Nr Fairy]

crab :

Mike Green said the same thing on Sunday when I asked him about where and when to do the courses.

Unfortunately for us newcomers this is something we have to do to tick the box - you old-timers have all the answers anyway :D

And Helinut - the number you've got ain't right, and I can't find a "Hitec Resources" anywhere near Fairoaks or Chobham - do you perchance have the right number or other contact details.

[212man]

I'm not sure why you think there is no reference to crm on their web site; it's under Human Factors training.

the following takes you straight to crm:

http://www.bristowtraining.com/human-crm.htm

Good luck with your searching.

[Helinut]

Crab,

The requirement to do CRM comes from the Belgrano - send your torpedos their way. They have a very half-baked logic about single pilot helicopters and CRM, but we in the civi world can't ignore them sadly.

In any case, the way that a single pilot organises himself in the cockpit, is worthy of some consideration. Also the way that the pilot relates to ops, engineers, ATC, self-loading freight, ground handlers. In lots of ways these issues for single pilots are more critical, because he does not have a second crew.

I did approach the CAA some while ago for guidance about single crew CRM - not a dicky bird from them, although they insist it has to be done. So I went on doing what I thought was common sense in line and continuation training. The only publication I ever found about single crew CRM was a US seminar pack published by the FAA/HAI (as I recall). Anybody got any other leads on this??

NR Fairy - the telephone number is correct. John was esssentially a single-hander; it may be that he has moved to something diifferent or retired ............ Let me dig a bit more and see what else I can find.

[The Auditor]

There are an increasing number of "Crew" single pilot operations cropping up around the world.

These are mostly EMS / SAR multi-engine helicopters with a crew compliment of a mix of Crewman and Medical / Paramedical Officers.

Each one is depending on each other to undertake certain roles around any task. Being single pilot really makes the CRM [Human Factors] more critical, as the pilot is relying on other "Non" aviator aircrew to fulfill a vital role.

Follow the following link and look at Case # 200102083, particularly the section "Conclusion" towards the bottom of the document.

www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/index.cfm

[TeeS]

While I would not claim to be a total disciple of CRM, I thought we were supposed to include hosties, engineers, ops staff, cleaning ladies etc within the CRM umbrella nowadays!
TeeS

[The Nr Fairy]

212man :

You're quite correct. However the home page - http://www.bristowtraining.com/index.html - says "NO COURSES AVAILABLE, EXCEPT JAA APPROVED INSTRUMENT RATING", their capitals not mine.

I'm awaiting a reply from the training department at Dyce to get the real hot poop rather than that promulgated on a website.

[Thomas coupling]

Ah, Crab you've been in the mil for far too long.
In the real world, CRM is a vital element to flight safety, I would suggest single pilot ops is an area that benefits particularly well from CRM because there is no other "crewman" there to monitor your peculiar habits :eek:
Single pilot ops CRM training targets those areas where mixing with 'non aviators' is a particularly weak area. I would suggest there is more cockpit mismanagement within the 4 walls of a single pilot 'office' than a multi crew facility...think about it!

Having said all that, the crabs don't do proper CRM do they, spoke to the Griffin crews who flew in here yesterday and they admit the RAF don't understand it.:oh:

It is an excellent vehicle for identifying trends, both from within (the individual) and without (the aviation environment).

[john du'pruyting]

Tsk, tsk TC, that has to be the most obvious bit of bait this forum has seen since.............um, the last really obvious bit of bait:=

[paco]

I used to have an approved one of these way back when, for single-engined people, helicopter or otherwise. For all I know it's still valid - does anyone know who to contact within the CAA to find out?

It looks like there is a need for such a service - if it is still valid, or I can get it revalidated, I do visit UK quite regularly and can run a few.

Phil

[HOGE]

Nr Fairy,

Dick Metson, formerly of Bond Helicopters, does CRM courses, and can be contacted on 07899 992841.

[[email protected]]

Errrr ..........I was taking the pi** chaps. no need to get serious.

As for Griffin crews - well they're not exactly operational are they?

The only reason that the RAF seems out of touch with CRM is that captaincy and crew cooperation have been taught as basic airmanship principles for so long that having them repackaged and rebranded as CRM seemed another case of unnecessary empire building.

If you want to see military CRM in action then get rescued by your local SAR flight.

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: copied your last :)

Let's take this CRM thing a little further, for research purposes you understand!

Civvy CRM is vastly different from mil (crew bonding) training. It's a fact that Officers and NCO's don't mix as well as they should...the RAF is probably the biggest culprit in this regard. Be honest, when was the last time any Officer went down to the hangar to take a keen interest in the a/c he or she was about to fly in??? Never - I've been there done that.
You 'assume' everything will be OK because those 'chappies' are paid to do the job -yes?

I remember once on a SAR sqdn I was on where a Seaking lifted into the hover and shook itself to bits. Why?...
The a/c had its tail rotor removed and the blades replaced before re installing. The maintainer who put the blades back on, put one of them on back to front, his second signatory missed the cock up, then when he signed up the tech log, the chief didn't check the finished job. On the line, the co-pilot who's menial task it was to do a 'walkaround' missed the back to front blade, then the Commander walked out and jumped in!!!
Could this have happened in an outfit where CRM affects EVERYONE and perhaps produces a more cohesive team.

The point is, CRM isn't just about the immediate 'crew' getting it together, it is about monitoring trends, getting involved with engineers, looking at weak spots throughout your operation from workshop to in flight. It is the 'big picture' and in hindsight, the mil "play at it" to some extent, partly because of this us and them attitude (there are many other aspects, too).
Do you know/care how your chief mechanic feels this morning????? He is about to certify your a/c as fit to fly.....

A civvy CRM consultant would have a field day in the mil...it would be a job for life! :eek:

[[email protected]]

TC - don't tar us all with the same brush - you are clearly ex-Navy where the attitudes you describe still prevail. The same us and them views are also often seen in RAF fast jet squadrons but not on RAF helicopter units.

The SH force spends most of it's time on deployment (sometimes on ships) and the working relationship between pilots, rearcrew and engineers must be good for the sqn to function.
On an RAF SAR flight 99% of the aircrew and groundcrew will be on first name terms (not just a one way street as others like to use it) and many will socialise together.

There will always be a few individuals (aircrew and groundcrew) who have a deep rooted distrust in each other but that is usually down to personalities not accepted working practises or ethos.
Our CRM is as good as any and better than most, I have done the courses and for the most part they are about common sense and giving respect to the other members of the team.

Whenever the aircraft are in pieces (often with the Sea King) you will find aircrew in the hangar poking their noses in and asking questions - apart from any CRM issues it's a very good way of learning more about the aircraft you fly.

You should have done an exchange tour with the crabs TC - we've got a 771 pilot just joined us so I hope he will learn how to relate to non-officers properly.

[Lu Zuckerman]

May I make a suggestion? The easiest way to establish the relationships and responsibilities of everyone in your respective organizations is to get certified to ISO 9001 standard. ISO 9001 requires that every member of a group defines his responsibilities and then defines what information he/she requires from other members of the organization and then defines what his/her responsibilities are respective to each member of the organization. There are other standards in the ISO format that deal mainly with the establishment of a quality control organization and define the paper trail within the production elements and the QC groups as well as the interrelationships of the members of the groups. This is basically what CRM does.

:cool:

[[email protected]]

Lu, just writing all that stuff down does not help people work better together - I agree that evryone should have a job description and some terms of reference and responsibilities laid out but things like ISO9001 are just paperwork exercises designed by consultatnts to make money from industry.

[Helinut]

I wasn't going to respond to Lu, but what the hell!

With over 20 years of experience in implementing QA systems (in the aviation and other sectors), I would be very cautious about linking the two things.

Firstly, they are not remotely the same thing.

Secondly, in many cases formal QA systems, particularly those subject to external audit, you get a paper exercise completely remote from the actual activity and of no relevance to it. I have worked for one or two helicopter outfits with just such formal systems. They have been without exception the worst operators with poor communications, lousy management, dissatisfied workforce, poorly delivered goals and a poor safety record. Such systems are often a substitute for real management.

Real quality assurance is fine and sits well with good CRM too; it is entirely different from my experience of things like ISO 9001. And I think that Crab is right that most of the probems arise from the thing being imposed by external consultants. The most important pre-requisite is that the people running the activity want to achieve "quality".

[Old Man Rotor]

And just to keep us all on our toes..................ISO 9001 [1994] has been superceeded by ISO 9001 - 2000.

Back to school.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Crab

Lu, just writing all that stuff down does not help people work better together - I agree that evryone should have a job description and some terms of reference and responsibilities laid out but things like ISO9001 are just paperwork exercises designed by consultatnts to make money from industry.

Being certified to ISO standards and working to those standards are two different things. Most companies have a standards manual for the handling of paperwork or a quality control manual. If everyone worked to those standards the company would be fine. However personalities enter into the equation where one boss does not like another and all lines of communications break down. The product suffers and the company suffers and most of all the people in the respective departments suffer even more. This was true for an Italian helicopter manufacturer at least when I worked there.

Whether you are talking about CRM or ISO 9001-1994 or, 2000 or whatever the reason they are being implemented is that there are humans involved. No matter if the Captain or the manager are total ass-bites they still have a responsibility to the people in their crew or department as well as the crew or personnel having a responsibility to the Captain or the manager.

There have to be operational standards in every type of operation whether it is in aviation or the manufacture of canned soup.

I once thought that ISO 9001 was a joke that is until I saw it being implemented into the engineering department of a major aircraft company. The management personalities entered into it and they could never get certified. However, the Manufacturing facility did get certified and they are a model for the industry. Companies like Boeing and Airbus have come to see the manufacturing facility and the methodology used in constructing aircraft.

CRM or Cockpit Resources Management was implemented by United Airlines when there were several mishaps resulting from poor crew communication. Since then it has grown like Topsy and included relations with cabin crew, ground crew and anybody that even touches an aircraft.

What it all boils down to is to park your personality at the Jetway prior to boarding the aircraft and, treat others with respect but then again that is what the “Golden Rule” is all about.

:(

[SASless]

My thoughts track with the comment of "treating others as you would like to be treated".....is that not what teamwork and a recipe for success in life is all about? CRM concepts work at home too....and in non-flying situations.

Wish my current gang of rotor tillers could discover CRM....like ISO 9001....in its written form...unless they actually live up to it...it is just another bunch of wasted paper and ink.

[MightyGem]

TC, I remember the Sae King TR. Sounds a bit the civvies who put the A 109 swashplates on the wrong way round.

Nr Fairy, some of the Police ASUs use, LifeSkills at:
[email protected]
or
07714 751452

for Pilot and Observer CRM training.

[Chopper Jog]

Comments, feedback, critique required!

I have been in aviation now since 1992 and throughout my military and commercial careers as a multi-engine pilot I haven't attended any CRM/ADM courses that were helicopter specific.

Yes it was great to attend the standard CRM/ADM course and view the spectacular airline accidents, but many of the courses were not customed designed to address some of the unique human factors issues involved in helicopter operations.

It is my opinion that we need to design and develop CRM/ADM specific courses that will address pertinent issues involved in the various industry sectors, ranging from Military, Police, EMS, Offshore, Marine Pilot Transfer, Fire Fighting, etc.

I believe this will be of great value if operators can invest in such a CRM/ADM course and combine it with Line Oriented Flight Training to facilitate the specific human factors issues involved in that particular industry sector. Pilots will greatly benefit from such tailored courses and will be able to apply many of these decision making and situational awareness techniques during day-to-day flying operations.

Any comments, critique or feedback from all pilots, ops managers and executives are encouraged.

Regards,

Chopper Jog

[Ascend Charlie]

Hi Jog,(again)

Talk to Rob Rich in QLD, via the HAA website, he runs such courses, and there is an experienced army pilot who might be linking with him soon to provide such helicopter-specific courses - you might know him, he is a talented artist. (CB)

Cheers:8

[Bellthorpe]

Regrettably, the HAA website is effectively defunct, and has been so for almost a year.

[griffinblack]

Ascend Charlie,

Your mystery man has decided not to run in the elections next year then?

[Ascend Charlie]

GriffinBlack:

Judging by your profile, you are probably working with him right now! And even Queensland doesn't have elections every two years, does it?:confused:

[paco]

I do one, Transport approved, but it's in Canada! :( I completely agree with your sentiments, which is why I developed it. The usual stuff is covered in the handout, but the talk sessions cover the considerations of what the working pilot has to deal with and anything else the victims (sorry, students) come up with. The main comments I get back are that it's good to have one done by a working pilot.

The plan is to include a simulator in the mix to get some real decisionmaking scenarios.

Maybe I'll do a video!

phil

[Chopper Jog]

To all interested parties,

In 2000 I have established my own Resource Management Company "Thought Process", based in Sydney. Our Company specialises in the development and implementation of CRM and Human Factors Training Packages for the various helicopter industry sectors ranging from Military, Police, Offshore, EMS, etc.

We have recently aligned our services with Omni Safe International that specialises in Safety Management Systems (SMS) and Aviation Safety Auditing. It is our aim to provide the wider aviation community with a professional and cost effective option to address both regulatory and operational demands.

Our Company is in the process of establishing a Maintenance Resource Management Package for engineers. This Package will be available in early 2004. Other new products will also include a Facilitators and Risk Management course for helicopter operators.

Please contact me ( Via private message option) direct to obtain the necessary contact details.

Best wishes for 2004 and safe flying.

Chopper Jog

[paco]

Now available for single pilot helis from myself - please PM for details

Phil

[helicam]

I was under the impression that one of the only companys approaved to conduct single pilot Helicopter CRM courses by the Authority is London Helicopters the course is two days and costs £250.00 and run by Carey Edwards

lovely jubley

[paco]

Actually, my understanding is that courses do not need to be approved until around October, but the instructor has to be an approved CRMI. This is a specialised single pilot helicopter course I had approved way back before JARs and have been doing abroad. It is now available here and the cost is 120 pounds per person per day or a daily rate by arrangement. It is a one-day course.

I will also be doing Dangerous Goods and First Aid.

Phil

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Micheal

Try Paddy Connelly at PAS 0145285799 or speak to Lisa Paddon in the training department at CHC Scotia Aberdeen i will dig the number out and post it shortly (both courses are very Good) CHC is directed purly at Multi crew ops.


Also PAS and CHC can carryout Fire and first aid CHC can also do the Dangerous good etc.


Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Staticdroop]

Guys,
I can only reiterate the suggestion by MightyGem and that you contact Life Skills as they are Helicopter orientated and also single crew.
Good course as well :ok:

[paco]

Yes, and so am I! :)

Phil

[Outwest]

Does anyone remember which thread Nick Lappos posted the link to the old John Wayne movie? It was a great example of CRM:D

[Staticdroop]

CRM, easy. Everybody do as i say;)

[paco]

Yeah, I'm the Captain, you're not!

Phil