Career prospects for a 'career changer' . . . . . aged 42

[Happy Wanderer]

Hi chaps,

This thread isn't meant to be a wind-up - please trust me!

The background to it is actually pretty similar to one posted by 'roundthebend' earlier on today on a wanabee theme. Rather than piggy-back on his, I thought I'd kick off a new thread on an age-related theme.

What I'd really appreciate please are any thoughts, opinions etc on the likelihood of being able to kick-off a flying career in the career-changing mid-40s. Judging by what I've been reading recently on this forum, prospects would seem bleak, but has anyone out there actually done it?

For info, my aspirations to pursue a flying career go back to the late 70s/early 80s via Hamble (didn't achieve the required entry qualifications) and the RAF (i.e. passed my flying aptitude tests at OASC, but failed the Officer aptitude bit!). Given the economic uncertainty and then glut of existing airline pilots (due to the failure of DanAir and others), I abandoned all thoughts of a flying career, and instead joined a high street bank. 25 years later and having worked reasonably hard to earn a comfortable living, I am now taking voluntary redundancy and therefore have an ideal opportunity to 'scratch an itch' that's never gone away.

I'm now doing loads of research into the necessaries to achieve this dream, including gaining a realistic understanding of the present job market. I'm not building my hopes up given my age and the number of much younger qualified pilots already out there seeking work. Whilst I'm in the fortunate position of now being able to fund my own training, with the need to build hours as well get the licences, I just wonder whether I've left it too late.

Like 'roundthebend', I too am married with two kids, and worry about the implications of not working for 18 months+ whilst studying. I would also not want to be away from home for long periods of time (thus ruling out a gun-to-tape integrated course, as well as any false hopes of achieving a role flying long haul).

The one thing I've not got too much info on are other options aside of flying for an airline. I read on this forum about how poorly-paid crop sprayers, banner-towers, parachute droppers, FI roles, etc are. Without sounding like a mercenary, exactly what is 'poorly-paid'?

Apologies for the length of this post. Any insights - whether good news or bad - would be gratefully received.

Kind regards.

[shaun ryder]

I wouldnt really know what to say, apart from do what you want to do my friend!

This game is a killer, even if you are 19!

If you are serious about a life change, its not all about money, and you can afford to take a major drop in income. Get on it!!

I blew a major career, 50K plus a year, and it was easy money. But like you I wanted something different. A life that I only dreamed about. Something that I thought I was not worthy of. Yes I tried the RAF like you, not good enough, BA pilot training, blew it! Gave up.

Then I decided I could, went for it. All the pain, trials and tribulations and got there. It was'nt easy, I am not an airline pilot.

Earning seventeen an hour and lovin it! Not alot, but in my mind its a means to an end. I am going for it.

I enjoy instructing now, its ******* great, and who knows? If I keep it it up, maybe I will get there someday.

A fellow.

[Stpaul]

I would say your prospects are very bleak.

I am nearly 40 and have been qualified for over a year. Age discrimiation is massive in aviation. I have been turned down from airlines where my younger lesser qualified friends have had interviews.
Although the airlines will say that they want to employ competent pilots regardless of age and the age/experience factor, but the reality is that the majority will not.

There is a mis-conception that because you are older you are on the down slope of the learning curve and cost the airlines more in training costs. I have an average of 97% for my ATPL exams, went to one of the better schools, first time passes in all exams/flight tests but I cannot even get a sniff of an interview!

The airline recruitment is very old fashioned and blinkered.

There is hope though, because an EU Directive on Human Rights has to be implemented before the end of 2006 whereby you cannot discrimate. But all that will happen is that the airlines will not put an age limit on their criteria but in practise will still apply one!

Sorry , its a bleak picture, better you know the truth than listen to the training schools which are only interested in your money and put yourself and your family through a lot of pain.

GOOD LUCK what ever you decide.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

This is not advice, only some notes on my experience. At the age of 40 I became a student at what I still consider to be an absolute top class flying school: baesystems in Jerez. It had been a lifelong dream which got put off forever until I virtually won the entire fee for their integrated course. (It was a share option thing.)

In my time there, which was one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences of my life, I rattled through all the ground school exams first time (hard work of course but not rocket science), got my CPL first time but then struggled with my IR. I did pass the 170 first time but by the time I got to the real thing, I was all out of luck and failed my IR. For another crack at a series, I had to withdraw from the college temporarily to either earn some more money or worst option borrow some.

It was only when I left, that I had a chance to stand back and look at where I really was. If I went back and passed the IR, what were my likely career options in aviation at the age of 42? Best/only guess - flying instructor. Then maybe air-taxi (after I built up over 700 hours PIC), then maybe a shot at turbo-props and then who knows a jet job.

But I knew all this before I joined, I just didn't want to think too much about it. Well you might ask, what is so bad about that route? Not much wrong about it if you don't have a long term relationship, have no responsibilities and are not used to £40k+ a year. At the age of 42, when I left the college in Spain, I did have a long term relationship and had been used to £40k+ a year for many a year. I was not really interested in losing either. If I had taken some poorly paid instructor job too many miles from home, we simply could not have managed: personally or financially. Same is true for any potential air-taxi job.

Some of the ageing wannabees out there (IT and engineering seem to host the most) may be bored with their well paid jobs. They may take for granted their good salaries, nice houses and enviable cars. They may have forgotten the hard slog and the many years on their CV's that got them where they are now. I know I did. But looking back I don't regret it. I got to take a big chunk of time off, do something I always wanted to do and in the end return to what I do best.

Bottom line for me, not for anyone else, is not so much that I was too old. It was that I could not sacrifice my very happy personal life just for flying. If I won the lottery tomorrow and did not have to worry about losing earnings or the cost of re-training, I would go back and finish the IR. But I won't win the lottery, so I won’t go back.

I still love flying. I will never lose that. But in this lifetime, it will be in Warrior’s or 172’s in my spare time.

No advice, just my experience.

[VC10 Rib22]

RI69,

One of the few bonuses to ageing is maturity, and you certainly made a mature decision based on what you were potentially going to lose. Some might say that by choosing not to go all the way you have wasted a lot of money and that you can't have wanted it enough, but I disagree. The way I see it is that you tried something you always wanted to, had a blast doing it and will have learned a hell of a lot about aircraft and flying from the course that will make you a better and safer pilot.

Sure, things may have worked out differently. You might have spoken to someone who said something, or read or experienced something along the way that was enough to spur you to keep going to achieve your dream. Sadly it didn't happen but at least you recognised this and didn't just keep throwing money at the problem hoping that something would change.

I'm a mature wannabe but only because I've had to be. Whilst this means it may be harder to find employment, I welcome the challenge and will take greater satisfaction when I get there. Life deals the cards and you just have to play them. My cards meant that I could never have been an 18 year old at Oxford but I wasn't going to let that prevent me from getting here. I left school to start an aircraft apprenticeship and worked until I had enough to finance my dream. Who knows, I might discover, like yourself, that reality is somewhat different from the dream, but if this is the case I'll hold my hands up, spend a week drinking fine wine, and return to the difficult stuff of real work.



Happy Wanderer,

PPrune is great for advice, but ultimately the only questions you need answered are:

1. Can you really afford to do the course? By that I don't mean the course, I mean the course then not get employment thereafter (mortgage, school fees etc).
2. Do you have a wife and kids who are dependent on you supporting them and do you have their backing?
3. Are you able to return (is a career break a possibility?) to the industry you worked in, at least till that first flying job comes around?
4. Do you have balls like a bull?

It's a big ask, not for the faint hearted. Good Luck!

VC10 Rib22

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Hi VC10,

I know you are right that some might say "you can't have wanted it enough". Indeed I know my Jerez buddies, who are now all flying for UK and Irish airlines, have wondered the same thing about me without actually saying it to me directly. But then none of them had my baggage, my responsibilities or anything close to my proximity to 60 years of age and the need to bung much money into a pension investment (not a fund!) now and not in 10 or 15 years time.

The 4 questions you list are the killer questions and anyone in their early 30's or older should seriously consider them.

Best of luck to you in the future.

- Roger

[VC10 Rib22]

RI69,

Thanks.

[Gugnunc]

Here are two undeniable factors that us mature pilots need to consider when gambling our families well being and inheritance:
The sources for my opinions are articles written in the journals of the Royal Aeronautical Society and AOPA.

1. There is a constant supply of young, capable and motivated young people from Europe and further afield turning up in the UK with frozen ATPL's. My club seems to have a never ending supply of Danes, Spaniards & Kiwi's.

Many of these students can claim their training expenses back from their governments and can even offset training costs against future earnings.

Now consider the rise of educated Asian students too. The Indian Airforce recent whipped the USAF in a joint excercise. OK they had the latest Russian Fulcrum, but it also proves the excellence of Indian pilots.

2. Our own, beloved BA has stated in letters to AOPA members that it does not need British GA applicants as it can find better qualified/educated/trained applicants from Europe.



So, if you are mature, Brit, wannabe what do you do with the £35-60k redundancy/inheritance/share options burning a hole in your pocket? This is what I'd do if I hadn't blown the money on flying:

Use your money as deposit on a Diamond Star TD or twin (or Robin/Warrior/172 with the Thielert diesel engine). Form a group and use the massive saving in fuel costs to run the group at a profit for you. Lease back the aircraft to your local club (who have not the funds nor the gumption to invest in such machinery).

Thus you can have your flying subsidised by other wannabee's, make a profit, own capital goods that will increase in value against inflation and:

and:

and (wait for it)

and.......

not pay a SINGLE PENNY IN FUEL DUTY TOWARDS AN ANTI AVIATION GOVERNMENT BENT ON DESTROYING GA IN THIS COUNTRY!!!

Hah. Rant I know, but it all makes perfect sense.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Gugnunc,

Well you know I sat on the fence for a few months with two options: buy an old 172 or go do that ATPL course.

Eventually I decided to go for the ATPL course as I knew if I bought an old 172, 3 years later I would still be scratching my head now wondering what if I had done that course? At least I know now.

You are right about that infinite supply of eager youngsters. I read a survey carried out by GAPAN a couple of years ago about airline's preferences regarding age and it makes for sober reading if you are over 30. I don't have it handy, it's out there on the net somewhere, but the airlines who replied pretty much stated they were not interested.

It's not the entire story though. Since the report was written in 2003, two of my 35 year old ish colleagues from Jerez have landed jobs in Britannia and Ryanair (after looking for 2 years flat out). But the report and their experience confirmed two things for me: unless you have connections + a lot more than 200ish hours under your belt, your CV will never land in front of the right person in a receptive mood.

[jam123]

RogerIrrelevant

those guys who got the job at 35ish, how many hours did they have upon employment and did they do mod or integrated?

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Hi jam123,

Couldn't give you exact figures about these guys. Just got the news last week they got employed from another guy in Britannia (also from my course). I know they somehow kept their ME/IR's current for the 2 years and that they did a lot of jet sim time in the infamous farmer's shed Trident sim (never been but I heard it was worth every penny). I think one was instructing for a while but I lost touch a while ago. They managed to keep current through all that time which shows bloody good perserverance.

Ryanair guy had connections when I knew him.

PS: we were all on the integrated Jerez course but I'm not sure that is an advantage over modular once you're out on your own looking for that first job. Useful advantage only if you were 20 to 30, good average in the flying stakes and recommended by the college to: MyTravel, GB, Britannia/Thomson or CitiExpress if they happened to be looking around the time you graduated.

- Roger

[scroggs]

Firstly, I have to state that it is possible to secure an airline job in your mid forties. However, to do it from zero flying experience is expecting rather a lot, and I think I'm fairly safe in saying not many will succeed in getting what they want. But it can be done, as previous contributors to Wannabes will no doubt confirm.

There have been some good posts in this thread, and all I can do is echo the point that this is not a path to tread lightly. The economic sacrifices required just to go through training are major for someone who has a mortgage and family commitments, and the consequences post-training if a job doesn't turn up need to be considered very carefully.

Most importantly, make sure your partner fully understands these consequences and is prepared to give you her or his full support, because without it you don't stand a chance.

Scroggs

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I don't like to rain on your parade but...... Whilst I was training and since I have been instructing I've noticed older guys (40+) take longer to "get it" than younger ones. This is only a general trend that I have observed in a casual way though. Possibly this is why airlines are sometimes reluctant to look at older low time pilots. It may end up costing you much more than you think with less chance of that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

If it was me I'd go and do a PPL and give myself a strict timeframe to do it in. All being well, take it furthur. This is a dog eat dog game and if I was earning well and in my forties I think I'd put it towards early retirement.

[sidtheesexist]

Thanks for a very enjoyable and informative thread/read. It wasn't that long ago that I was a 37 yr old FATPL/PPL Instructor wannabee - I can relate well to many of the sentiments expressed in previous posts. Things have fallen into place over the past 2/3 years and I count myself very fortunate to now be a busdriver for a UK airline. To get here 'cost' me my inheritance and I have neither a wife nor mortgage to support (I don't have a brick to my name!). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for most of 'us' self-sponsored types, arriving 'here' usually comes at a price - I've been in this game long enough to know and see that at first hand. I guess deciding what price you are prepared to pay to follow your dream is the crunch question. One thing is clear to me, you must want 'it' 110%. Best of luck to you all and if I can be of any help, please feel free to PM me. :ok:

[Maximum]

I'd back-up just about everything that's been said (unusual for me:} ).

Another little bit of food for thought. Remember you'll be the newbie and treated as such. This can be distinctly unpleasant I would imagine if you don't have skin like a Rhino.

Put it the other way round - imagine someone of your age coming into your industry brimming with enthusiasm but no knowledge of the real job and the tricks of the trade. How would you feel towards them? How would they be treated?

Just a thought.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Fair_Weather_Flyer

Couldn't argue with you there at all. Whilst the ground school stuff went into the old grey cells quick enough, the flying was tough. It's all relative but I can well remember the youngsters on my course being shown something just once and once they got it, they remembered it for good.

A doctor I know confirms this is fact. Up to a certain age an individual can take something in, sleep on it and when they wake up it's still there, often even clearer. Beyond that age (whatever it is for the individual), a good deal of it can be lost the following morning.

Bit of a b@stard, but that's life.

sidthesexist

Yeah you're right it has been a good thread. I see something about the old age question popping up every week or so and just haven't been bothered to chip in until now. They are usually full of 'just go for it' replies which really are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. But Happy Wanderer's situation I could really relate to and thought hmm, maybe my story would be useful. Who knows?

Anyway sid well done to you, you saw it out.

- Roger

[Megaton]

I'm a few (but not many) years younger than you and it has worked for me. I got my first job at age 37 yrs with about 400 hrs. Now 38 yrs with 800 hrs total time I start with BA on A320 in a few weeks time. I have been fortunate that I had a previous career in the RAF as an engineer so I was "technically literate." Also, had a few people within the industry help me out along the way. These coupled with good exam results and first time passes in the flight tests all helped.

I have worked extremely hard but have also been incredibly fortunate. Luck, sadly, plays a large part in whether you get that first interview and job. Is it possible to get a decent flying job in your forties? Yes. Is it likely? Probably not.

[jam123]

I have read this post and find it very interesting.

However, In a way it has made me even more confused:confused:

I am at that critical age of 33 where if i was to "go for it" then would be in a position to enter the market at 35. What i have noticed is that 35 years of age seems to be the benchmark for the airlines when it comes to recruiting older low timer's fatpl's.

If i do go for it i have decided that it will be integrated for a number of reasons. One being i hope it might off-set the age factor (Please dont turn this into a int/mod debate, i really don't want this thred to go that way)!

If i don't i will be forever living with that regret! something that would probably turn me insane.

At my age should i "go for it" or "accept it" ??




Jam123

[sidtheesexist]

Jam - only you alone can answer that question. Those of us who post here can only share our own thoughts and experiences in the hope that they might help you come to the decision that is right for you and your own circumstances, family etc etc. For me it was 'relatively' simple in so far as I only had my own aspirations/dreams to consider. As I had wanted 'it' very badly since being a whippersnapper, once the opportunity presented itself I didn't hesitate - that was back in Aug 98 when I was just shy of my 34th b'day. Very best of luck in making your decision. Sid:ok:

[jam123]

Thanks Sid

I know ultimately it is going to have to be MY decision. I do not have any other commitments eg family etc etc. However, i would need to take out a loan to fund part of it.

The other consideration is that unless i walk into a job straight after graduating (wishful thinking) it could take several years before i get a job which would take me up to 37ish.

This has to be the most difficult decision i am having to take in life so far and my gut feeling is to take the plunge!

Jam

Ps: in a recent advert for sponsorship in flight international the maximum age to qualify for sponsorship is 33 !

Are we looking too much into it????

[sidtheesexist]

Jam - I got my frozen ATPL aged 34 but didn't get my first (tprop) airline job until I was 38!! It can take a while but from my (ltd) experience, a goodly number of those who stick at it eventually make it ................In that four year period I did come close to packing it all in on a number of occasions. It can be a bumpy ride and I would urge you to prepare accordingly SHOULD you choose to set out on 'the long and winding road' (sorry messrs Lennon/ Mccartney). Cheers

[Gugnunc]

A question for the 30+ ATPL's reading this -

Either while working, or applying for jobs, did you get the feeling that interpersonal skills, management skills and system skills were given priority over stick and rudder stuff?

I ask as IMHO, the seat of the pants skills you either have an aptitude for or not. If you are "mature" with good handling abilities, is it better to consider Instructing as a long term career?

If you are younger, struggling with the xwind shortfield sideslipping stuff, but very good at CRM, IT and business studies, do you have a glowing big jet operator career?

[jam123]

thank's sid...... I think its time i put the thinking cap on !

[scroggs]

I think you can analyse this too much. There are no definitive answers, unfortunately, for those in the age dilemma. It's a risk - and the older you are, the greater the risk - that only you can decide whether you're willing to take.

If you have no external commitments, that does make it easier. If you do have those commitments, you really, really have to think this through very carefully, and you must never embark on anything without ensuring that those who depend on you totally understand the risks and fully support you (financially if necessary). If you're not sure that your family can take that risk, then there's no question; this course of action is not for you. The consequences of failure are too high.

Scroggs

[jam123]

thanks scroggs for your wise advice.......as always.

By the way scroggs, a bit of the subject, but you don't think not having academic qualifications above GCSE's to be an issue do you as i only have GCSE's but do have a scientific mind.

I take it they would be more interested in other issues than my academc background.


Jam

[scroggs]

At your age academic qualifications are less important than they are for a school-leaver. You have experience, particularly in the workplace, which employers will value more highly than academic qualifications. GCSEs are quite adequate.

Scroggs

[jam123]

thanks scroggs......

[ant1]

Very interesting thread. I am the same age and 700TT.

I can relate to your dilema.

Many insights from the replies posted here though ultimatly it's your call.

Presently I am consedering to spend money on building time and/or SSTR.

I have commitments and building 1.000 more hours would take me probably a year away from my family and work and require a considerable amount of €.

I would consider the time and money well spent if I could at least end up flight instructing (I've already done it) or doing aerial work. Given the FI wages I would need to be able to retain my present job, though and that limits the choices to aprox 6 local outfits.

Presently I am doing some financial planning for this go/no go decision.

As I said before, tough personal decision.

Thanks for all the thoughts posted on this thread.

[Happy Wanderer]

Hi all,

Immense thanks to all who've contributed to my post, and also to those who got in touch via PM. The advice and personal insights, both +ve and -ve, have been invaluable.

I've spent days deliberating on this, done a lot of research, and more importantly, talked it over with folks at home (Scroggs - sound advice BTW). Instinct tells me that pursuit of the dream is too much of a risk, mainly due to responsibilities and commitments at home; I've been made redundant and had two children - all in the space of the last 9 months. I have the finance to fund the training, but it feels like a case of 'too much to lose, too little to gain' to now fork out shed loads of money when there are absolutely no guarantees of a job at the end of it. I could well be a fortunate one, who knows, but at 42 (now 43 as I write this!) and no flying hours seems a big ask.

The FI route is an option I've considered, but the relatively poor pay (from what other posters have suggested) again makes me question it.

In the short term, I've decided to do my PPL in as short a time scale as possible as helpfully suggested by someone on this thread. If I'm totally smitten by the PPL experience, then who knows what I'll do!

Arghhhh!!!

Many thanks.

[Megaton]

That's how I started.

Mmmmm. Couldn't get in to mil flying so I thought I'd do a PPL for pleasure and to prove to myself I could.

PPL in hand now so what's next. Well, could do an FAA IR, just to keep skills improving. Hmmmm. I might as well do the ATPL exams. They can't be that hard, can they?

Since I've done the exams I might as well do the CPL. Bu55er it. CPL is no use without the JAR IR so I'll convert my FAA IR. Now suddenly I've got CPL/IR with exams. In for a penny and all that so finish off with a MCC. Several thousnad pounds and a few years later it's all finished but I do have a blue licence with one turbo-prop type-rating in it and I'm just about to start a jet TR.

Flying is insiduous. You start with a PPL and before you know it you've spent thousands chasing a dream. Never any guarantees but if you don't have a go.... On the other hand, there are a lot of wannabes who have more money than ability. Try PPL for size and see how you get on. Good luck and make sure you enjoy it :)

[Grass strip basher]

I agree 100% with Ham Phisted... it is addictive... did my PPL 2-3 years ago... now studying for ATPLs and can't wait to get onto the flying element of a CPL. I may never fly professionally but that doesn't mean I don't want to fly at all.

I say do that PPL... you can stay in full time employment whilst doing it so the financial risk to you and your family is relatively low... taking your family and friends flying for the first time is very rewarding... I'm sure your kids would love it

Then you can even finance you ATPLs whilst still working (as I am).... and even do the CPL at weekends if you want to go that far.

If you take the training in small bite sized steps I don't believe you have to get 000's of pounds in debt to chase you dream. Lots of people in the industry have pointed out to me that the right hand seat of a 737 isn't the only way to get involved in avaition. I know one or two people in your position who now work in different industries (for considerably more money than that a typical first officer gets) and instruct at weekends... they are very happy with life.

Best of luck with it anyway... and thanks for starting the thread... best I've seen on Pprune for quite some time

[theWings]

The important thing about Ham Phisted and Grass strip's v useful posts are that they show an alternative to the "all or nothing approach". As suggested you might like to get your PPL and add to your qualifications and experience as you want to and actually enjoy the journey. As an aside, "Did you enjoy your training?" would make a very interesting Wannabe Forum poll!

Doing it this way you should able to maintain a better balance between flying and other equally important commitments in your life and at the end of it you're likely to be less in debt. Being older, you probably aren't looking for the same things from a job as a younger person, which would leave you open to so many more ideas about how to make a living from flying aeroplanes. See if you can find an overlap between the jobs that you would like to do, the jobs that you can realistically get and the jobs that you can afford to take: that's your target. :ok: