Redress

[OOpsIdiditagain]

I have recently had cause to redress my boss. Its proved to be the hardest thing I've ever done. Since submission I have been subject to a much more stringent regime, several formal bollockings over petty stuff etc. The system itself seems flawed whereby statements from others can contain lies which I am not allowed to try and disprove. Any one any advise on how to use/beat this system?

[Twonston Pickle]

The following info from AP3392 Vol 4 Lflt 1806 may help answer your query:

"5. At all stages in the staffing of the complaint, careful consideration should be given to seeking timely advice from the appropriate legal staffs within the Cmd chain. It is the duty of the appropriate Deciding Officer to read and investigate the complaint and consider all the evidence submitted with it, together with any legal advice. The issues raised should be approached fairly and impartially. When dealing with a Redress of Complaint in respect of sexual orientation, religion or belief, Deciding Officers should be aware that the 'reverse burden of proof' has shifted onus from the claimant to the respondent, in line with the extant regulations in cases of discrimination relating to sex and race. Effectively, once the complainant has proved facts from which harassment or discrimination can be inferred, it is for the respondent to demonstrate that they acted appropriately and reasonably. Proper consideration must be given to the allegations, documents and representations put forward by the complainant, as well as any documents produced by the investigation. With the single exception of any legal advice received, the Deciding Officer should not see any document not already seen by the complainant. Where there is a requirement that the decision maker have sight of an original document even though the complainant will only receive a summary, legal advice from the relevant DLS or Cmd Legal Adviser should be sought. If there is a dispute as to the facts of the case, it is the civil standard of proof that is relevant (see Annex C - Guidance for Deciding Officers)."

Hope this helps. If you need further advice, your OC P1/OC PSF is there to provide impartial advice and guidance.

[Safeware]

Oops,

Firstly, sorry that you had to get into this situation. I was fortunate that my redress was against the system, not a person, so I received excellent support from the station.

Secondly, don't try to 'beat the system', that's the surest way of coming a cropper.

Stick to the facts, presented in an unemotional manner, and your desired outcome, achievable and presented rationally.

As for the rest of the stuff, keep a record of what is going on - sounds almost like harassment.

sw

[BlueEagle]

try here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=2189597&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) .

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Cheers for this guys, especially the link. Probably didnt make myself too clear. I submitted the redress after lengthy attempts to solve the problem informally. 3 Months later I lost with the first DO who just ignored all the evidence and essentially blamed me. My EO advisors and as it happens the recipient all thought I had a great case and would win hands down. Since then have been given a swine of an ACR with no thread of truth in it and the threat of worse to come if I make a second complaint about it.

[Pierre Argh]

Non Illegitimi Carborundum* Since then have been given a swine of an ACR with no thread of truth in it and the threat of worse to come if I make a second complaint about it. Difficult times... assuming that you there's not a word of truth in the report (think carefully about it, you know better than anyone?)... there are legitimate actions you can take.

Firstly you are entitled to comment on "point of fact" in the report (and if there's enough material this could easily discredit the entire report). Do you have any evidence of performance that contradicts (or over-looked) what has been reported? For less iron-clad matters... ask to discuss the report with the next reporting officer up the chain, (and go higher again if not given that chance).

Always be prepared to discuss it in a level headed manner, there will be little to be gained otherwise. Be discrete i.e. don''t go blabbing about it in the crewroom (the "mates" you find there may not always be totally on your side?)

Sadly, at the end-of-the-day there are no guarantees of fair treatment, but that doesn't mean you have to necessarily roll-over and take it? Think if it's worth it (what are your career aspirations and what/where do you hope to get if you remain... that way should you not get satisfaction the other option may be easier to accept?)

(*I think that's right, but never studied the classics myself)

[buoy15]

OOps

Your callsign says a lot

A redress is a serious thing, whether against an individual or the system - it is a threat and is observed by higher authority as such !

It should never be discussed openly but processed expediently through official channels before it becomes common knowledge

Redress complaints that tend to drag on, having been sorted out in the crew room, often fail for "many reasons"

"Love Many, Trust a Few, Always paddle your own canoe!

[Impiger]

I've never been redressed although I suspect I've come perilously close at times - goes with the territory of command I guess. But I have had to act as Deciding Officer more than once. What I found was that the reverse burden of proof rule was particularly unfair. It was compounded by the fact that whereas the PMS and legal aid bods lined up (quite properly) to assist the claimant the respondent was hung out to dry on their own. We need a fair system of that there is no doubt but it must be equally fair to both sides of the argument.

[Vortex_Generator]

I have been successful using the redress system and my advice is do everything in writing and keep copies of everything. Even though I won my case I think there is something intrinsically wrong when your complaints against the system are investigated and decided upon by the system. It's high time we had an independent body to deal with such issues.

[dalek]

The main problem with redress is timescale. If you reject the findings at Station level it will take about nine months to a year for PMA to attempt to resolve. They will take their time and quibble over every dot and coma of your original redress. They will ask complex questions and allow you only two weeks to respond, regardless of your workload at the time.
If you petition the Air Force Board it will take a further one to two years and lots of work.
The only person I know that petitioned the Queen obtained a response eight years after his initial redress and three years after he left the service.
The system is stacked against the individual at all stages. You are alone. The whole of PMA will be used against you.

[WSO1]

Why do we have to use a system that is meant to be put in place to help us, but obviously has it's interests in not helping us by throwing up so much red tape in our way? My bullying claim was rejected as it was 2 weeks late (due to the Christmas holidays that PMA took!!!).

Why have a system that no-one has confidence in? What should we replace it with? Answers on a Gem idea sheet to CinC PTC...

The 3 month timescale for submission seems to be a sticking point (for me anyway)- something needs to be in place to look at cases on their merit. Surely, all cases must be heard. It should not be the remit of Casework to sumerally dismiss cases to try and lessen their in-boxes... They should purely be there to facilitate the processing.

[flipster]

I think Dalek's timescales may be a bit out. #

My redress against PMA got as far as HMQ and took 18 months from first letter to the Staish until a letter from the Royal Household telling me to politely 'knob off'. But the whole thing was complete tosh as the cards are stacked against you at every level - I always knew I was going to lose.

Why? Because if you redress someone at PMA - who is the DO? - the Air Sec who is hardly impartial as he has a vested interest to not make his dept look stupid (a difficult job). So you ask for higher level DO decision from - the Air Force Board - all big chums with the Air Sec! Then, if you go Her Majesty - guess who advises her? Yep, you guessed it - the Air Force Board again!

So the whole thing is a sham. In my case, I would have set an expensive precedent for PMA and one could palpably feel the political wheels in motion against me. However, i got the great satisfaction of making a number of people waste their valuable time - which wouldn't have happened if a lowly SO2 had done his job better.

Some advice (not sure I qualify - as I lost)

- don't seek redress lightly
- read the stuff on the RAF Intranet (Air Secs Air Staff Instructions/Pubs etc) and the QRs on Redress (QR 1000?) thoroughly,
- get your facts straight
- keep all correspondence and emails in a separate personal file
- pre-empt the outcome at each level and have the next letters ready in rough.
- If they ask you silly questions, answer back with questions of your own but don't lose sight of the gist of your own argument as they WILL try to muddy the waters and avoid any direct answers
- watch what PMA write in their precis to their masters - correct them quickly
- don't allow their silly timescales to put you off - just do it.
- Get friendly with OC P1 and the Stn Adj.
- Lawyers can be helpful but Redress is strictly a Service problem. I have been told by a very able barrister that redress would not stand up in a civil court and that should they ever get to the European Courts, then it would be very expensive for the RAF and HMG. However, since I KNEW I was right and morally so, I don't need a French/Belgian/German lawyer to tell me so - I also think that any funds so diverted from RAF legal side would eventually find their way to impinge on those poor s0ds left behind the Services' front line - so why bother?

Oh - and know how to laugh and when to quit!

[An Teallach]

Unless things have changed in a major way, don't bother with redress unless you have a cast-iron sense of humour. It is a complete waste of time and all you are doing is keeping some bone-headed bureaucrat at PMA in a well-paid job, rather than being an NCP Car Park attendant where he would otherwise be.

Most bullies melt away as soon as the victim stops being prepared to be a victim. I'm afraid redress etc. merely confirms your victim status and reinforces the bully, as everyone knows it is a pointless waste of time.

If your boss is a bully, remember bullies are merely projecting their own inadequacy. Find out what that inadequacy is and expose it. Failing which, make sure there are no witnesses and threaten him with extreme physical violence, ensuring that he understands that you don't make idle threats. If you have to carry out your threat, once again make sure there are no witnesses.

It will be far more satisfying than the redress / legal route and, even if you get caught, you'll only get 6 months inside which is far less expensive and stressful than trying to fight the loaded dice for years. ;)

[TheShadow]

I agree with An Teallach.

Use the padded knuckledusters as any other kind leave the tell-tale marks across the knuckles.

They have to believe that you are capable of really hurting them. It is a Mafia technique that rarely fails. Given the usual mounting frustration of a typical redress situation, most males should be able to muster the testosterone to be adequately convincing in a manic threat posture.

But above all, don't just get mad, get even. And remember that homicidal isn't helpful. Just levy that epistaxis.

[An Teallach]

I was thinking more along the lines of a pick-helf to the extremities. If you can hospitalise him for over 4 months, chances are he will be posted non-effective and you'll get a new Boss. :ok:

That said, going 'nuclear' from the off may not be required. As a young recruit squad we once managed to point out to a Sgt that he had grossly overstepped the mark simply by deflating his personal car tyres at a very inconvenient time and location. He learned his lesson and was an excellent Trg Sgt after that!

[Two's in]

Oops - never, ever, resort to direct and attributable violence. As one of the Kennedys said, "forgive your enemies, but always remember their names". Get the Sunday paper magazines and start by sending him:

1. Trial Mills and Boone subsriptions.
2. 30 Day free trial on a green house.
3. "Exotic" lingerie catalogues.
4. Penis Extension plans (although he already sounds like a big enough d*ck)
5. Free Viagra trial - always a favorite.
6. Enrollment in the Moonies/Jehovahs/(insert name of wacky cult here).
7. Music CD club mebership.
8. Readers Digest Subsription (even when PMA have lost track of him, Readers Digest will be able to locate him to within 2 metres).

The secret is to do them randomly and one at a time so as not to arouse too much suspicion - although using his work address does increase the fun factor.

Give it a go, I promise you he will love it.

Regards,

TI

[Hammer Head Too]

Got locked into a situation on the last great bastion of RAFG whilst trying to "see the AOC" about **** housing. Got 80% there when a senior admin man lied to a senior squadron man. My only course at that stage would have been to redress my Boss so he had to prove admin had lied to him. Time for a reality check, a quiet smile, and select neck and wind.

When the FO had his jaw broken in the Mess on Friday Happy Hour and there were NO witnesses I had another smile and another beer. (And it wasn't me! I was in the other Mess)

HH2

[stickmonkeytamer]

SMT's quick guide to QR1000

Drop them a quick "I have the honour to refer to" official letter informing them that as a direct result of their actions towards you, you are being forced into involuntry redundency directly due to them making your life intollerable. Tell them that you are going to sue them personally.

Sit back, wait, and watch what happens...;)

It took them about 10 minutes to change their mind and investigate it fully!

I got 3 houses out of it in the end...:ok: