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OldCessna
24th Sep 2005, 19:58
Back to the old Southern Air Transport Days!

From AP..

SAN DIEGO - A branch of the U.S. Navy secretly contracted a 33-plane fleet that included two Gulfstream jets reportedly used to fly terror suspects to countries known to practice torture, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

At least 10 U.S. aviation companies were issued classified contracts in 2001 and 2002 by the obscure Navy Engineering Logistics Office for the "occasional airlift of USN (Navy) cargo worldwide," according to Defense Department documents the AP obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

Two of the companies — Richmor Aviation Inc. and Premier Executive Transport Services Inc. — chartered luxury Gulfstreams that flew terror suspects captured in Europe to Egypt, according to U.S. and European media reports. Once there, the men told family members, they were tortured. Authorities in Italy and Sweden have expressed outrage over flights they say were illegal and orchestrated by the U.S. government.

While the Gulfstreams came under scrutiny in 2001, what hasn't been disclosed is the Navy's role in contracting planes involved in operations the CIA terms "rendition" and what Italian prosecutors call kidnapping.

"A lot of us have been focusing on the role of the CIA but also suspecting that certain parts of the armed forces are involved," said Margaret Satterthwaite, a New York University School of Law researcher who has investigated renditions.

The Navy contracts involve more planes than previously reported — other news outlets totaled 26 planes; the AP identified 33 planes.

Italian judges have issued arrest warrants for 19 purported CIA operatives who allegedly snatched a Muslim cleric from Milan in 2003 and flew him to Cairo, according to FAA records cited by the Chicago Tribune, aboard Richmor's Gulfstream IV. The jet belongs to a part-owner of the Boston Red Sox, who told The Boston Globe that the team's logo was covered when the CIA leased the plane. Another case involves two men taken from Sweden to Egypt in 2001 aboard Premier's Gulfstream V.

Neither the CIA nor a Navy spokeswoman at the Pentagon would comment for this story. Officials at the Navy Engineering Logistics Office, or NELO, in Arlington, Va., didn't respond to messages requesting comment.

Joseph P. Duenas, counsel for the logistics office, declined to provide the contracts, saying they "involve national security information that is classified."

The secrecy surrounding the deals makes it unclear why NELO issued them, but one reason may be the office's anonymity — the agency is so buried within the Pentagon bureaucracy that some career Navy officials have never heard of it.

John Hutson, a retired rear admiral who was the Navy's Judge Advocate General from 1997 to 2000 and is critical of the Bush administration's detainee policies, said he was not familiar with NELO. Told of its activities, Hutson said NELO employees could be held liable if they knew the planes would be used for renditions. Human rights lawyers allege rendition flights violate criminal law.

The office has been around since the mid-1970s, according to a former employee who spoke on condition of anonymity because NELO's activities are secret. NELO operates under different names: it's also known as the Navy's Office of Special Projects and its San Diego location is called the Navy Regional Plant Equipment Office.

None of those names is listed in the U.S. Government Manual, the official compilation of federal departments, agencies and offices. A man who answered the phone at NELO's Arlington office refused to give his name or the agency's address, suggesting it may be classified.

In court documents filed in the case of a fired Office of Special Projects whistleblower, government attorneys described the agency's principal function as "the conduct of foreign intelligence or counterintelligence activities."

The AP learned of the airplane contracts through a Freedom of Information Act request that focused on a different subject — permits granted to all 10 aviation companies that let them land at any Navy base worldwide.

The permits list planes operated by the companies and a contract number issued by NELO. The numbers provide some details about the contracts, including when they were issued, but do not say when they expire. In the documents the AP reviewed, contracts were issued in 2001 and 2002 and were cited on landing permits issued in 2004. The NELO contract numbers also appear on permits issued in 2003 and 2004 that allowed seven of the companies to buy fuel at military bases worldwide.

The permits list 31 planes under NELO contract other than the two Gulfstreams. They include a small Cessna; three huge Lockheed Hercules cargo planes; a Gulfstream 1159a; a Lear Jet 35A; a DC-3; two Boeing 737s; and a 53-passenger DeHavilland DH-8 photographed by plane spotters in Afghanistan.

Ownership of the planes is shielded behind a maze of paperwork and elusive executives.

James J. Kershaw is listed as president of three of the companies, located in Massachusetts, Tennessee and North Carolina. Two other companies share the same vice president, Colleen Bornt. Extensive public record searches could not locate either of them.

Record searches also failed to turn up information on Leonard T. Bayard, whose firm bought Premier Executive Transport Services' Gulfstream. The address of Bayard's firm is the Portland, Ore., office of attorney Scott Caplan.

Asked if his client is a real person, Caplan replied: "No comment."

B Sousa
24th Sep 2005, 21:36
SAN DIEGO - A branch of the U.S. Navy secretly contracted a 33-plane fleet that included two Gulfstream jets reportedly used to fly terror suspects to countries known to practice torture, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press

Best use of my tax dollar as of late..............They need volunteer Pilots, my name is in the books.

SASless
24th Sep 2005, 21:52
Beat me to it Bert....wuz wondering where the recruiting office was. If it takes high voltage to elicit timely information from a terrorist....only one thing to say....Red is positive...black is negative.:uhoh:

spycatcher
24th Sep 2005, 22:24
And people wonder why the world is in such a mess

Mr Chips
24th Sep 2005, 23:33
You posted that article like its a bad thing.....

OneWorld22
24th Sep 2005, 23:52
Yes, very sensible use of tax dollars. Transport suspected terrorists, i.e. people who have been convicted of nothing.

Stupid moves like this were used in NI before where people were just rounded up, the vast majority were innocent, and held without any charges. All it did was make more terrorists and was a propoganda coup for the IRA.

Great how we learn our lessons isn't it?! :confused:

B Sousa
24th Sep 2005, 23:59
And people wonder why the world is in such a mess

It must be nice to be up in Scotland where the weather sucks so bad no normal person would live there. Its also easy to be critical as I dont think any of these fine folks will be living next door to you anytime soon.
In the meantime the rest of us are sort of tired of being told we must tolerate some group who want nothing more than to impose their lifestyle or simply just kill us all... They want the lifestyle, no problem here, just keep it in thier own sandbox (not an ethnic term Mr Mod)
After a few of these fine folks pop in to grovel in your Haggis maybe you may change your mind. By then it will be too late as it will be their right to piss you off as yours, mine and others Government have opened the doors for them. Either way, I prefer them to be your neighbor, not mine.

Mr Chips
25th Sep 2005, 00:13
Hmmm, and there was me thinking that internment was slightly more scientific than just "rounding people up"

The problem with suspected terrorists is that you need to wait for them to blow people up before they are proven guilty. Many people are sick and tired (especially in the UK) of the way that "Clerics" can preach hatred in public and not be arrested, can be wanted for murder in other countries but not deported...

Perhaps the word "Murderers" should be used more often instead of "terrorist". The IRA were (sorry, still are) Murderers. There are people walking the streets who are getting ready to murder, or who are encouraging others to murder. One feels that maybe these human rights acts should have a little clause....

one more thing - this whole aircraft thing isn't striking mer as very secret anymore!!!!

tony draper
25th Sep 2005, 00:37
The way I look at it when you are dealing with a enemy of a medieval mind set, tiz best you get medieval with their asses before they get medieval with yours.


:cool:

OneWorld22
25th Sep 2005, 00:39
I'd love it if you could explain to me the "science" of internment chippy!

Do you know what the hit rates were for getting actual terrorists amongst all those rounded up? It was laughable

So the solution is to suspend the cornerstone of our democracies, that have stood for centuries, deny the assumption of innocence and instead assume guilt until we're satisifed of their innocence.

Is that how it should be now?!

tinpis
25th Sep 2005, 01:02
Do you know what the hit rates were for getting actual terrorists amongst all those rounded up? It was laughable


No....tell us.

OneWorld22
25th Sep 2005, 01:31
Well on the first morning Aug 9 1971 342 men were "lifted"

While 100 IRA men escaped the bungled intelligence effort and innocent men were interned...

All it did was to introduce the bloodiest phase of NI's history as terrible violence followed. Catholics, outraged at this treatment, rioted and the three years since August 9th 1971 were the most tumultuous in the history of Northern Ireland. They saw 1004 deaths. They also saw the Provisional IRA campaign reach its climax and intoduced hundreds of new recruits for them.

Writing years later, the Home Secretary Reginald Maudling who sanctioned the action said the experience from 1971 to 1975

was by almost universal consent an unmitigated disaster which has left an indelible mark on the history of Northern Ireland.

A total disaster by any definition.

SASless
25th Sep 2005, 07:07
Seems like a summary of the NI thing from the gitgo until now as seen by a foreigner if you might ask.

spycatcher
25th Sep 2005, 11:30
B Sousa

Just who exactly is trying to impose whos will on who

Perhaps they are not in my country because we are not in their country using the power of the gun to win their "hearts and minds", not to mention their oil

delta-golf
25th Sep 2005, 12:05
B Sousa, of Las Vegas, get your maps out, London is closer to Scotland than NYC is to Vegas, indeed Madrid is closer to Scotland funnily enough.

Arab terrorists are not the only ones in the world, and I think UK in general has had more than its fair share of terrorists of all shapes and sizes.

Jolly Green Giant will probably also testify to the relative ineffectiveness of having three brigades of well trained and supported troops in an area the size of metropolitan LA for 30 years, when it comes to trying to suppress people that you have really [email protected] off, for whatever reason (and I write as a former contributor to that effort).

While it might give some short term satisfaction to introduce a terrorists anus to a brush handle, or for that matter an egyptian guards finest...., that would assume that you were pretty sure of your position with that individual, and if you are, why is he not standing trial ?

The insurgents in Iraq seem to be quite a capable group of people, as I am sure are many Al Qaeda and the rest, but the Intelligence they have is probably stale 72hrs after capture. Not only that but under the severest torture most people will tell the torturer whatever they want to HEAR , JUST TO MAKE IT STOP. It is by no accident that people who have been previously under torture, often commit suicide if they believe that they will be arrested again. If you are a bit weird this may give you some twisted satisfaction. But if you are a little logical, you may see it as wasted and ineffective resources.

As all great leaders in history have found out, the key to success is INCLUSION, not EXCLUSION. Even the cold war was won because most of those on the other side of the wall wanted INCLUDED on our side.

airship
25th Sep 2005, 13:56
If it takes high voltage to elicit timely information from a terrorist....only one thing to say....Red is positive...black is negative. That last outburst should demonstrate that some people just don't know their AC from their DC. Why do you think the lights dimmed the last time you were torturing someone mate?! Uh OK, the lights don't always dim here whilst reading one of your posts unless there's a thunderstorm in the area, so maybe you do use truck batteries?! :uhoh:

Nice input DG :ok: But there's a silver lining to every cloud: if the interrogators weren't taking it out on suspected terrorists, they might have had to relieve their frustrations on old folk and little kiddies...?! :sad:

10W
25th Sep 2005, 14:09
It must be nice to be up in Scotland where the weather sucks so bad no normal person would live there.

Sure it sucks ... I mean, just compare it to the fantastic weather experienced in New Orleans, Galveston, etc :rolleyes:

You made a totally pointless statement as a self proclaimed 'normal' person.

I don't have any problem with terrorist subjects being detained and interrogated in accordance with the law, but if it is the USA that is acting as their judge and jury then why is there the need to fly them to third party countries where justice regimes are a little less civilised ?? Have the balls up front to declare you hold these people, have the balls to fly them to the USA having complied with any relevant extradition procedures, and then put them through the US justice system for the world to see. No one can complain then, indeed you'd probably get widespread world support.

Or would the prisoners then have too many 'rights' and you might not force the answers you want from them ???

ORAC
25th Sep 2005, 14:13
OneWorld22,

Yes, very sensible use of tax dollars. Transport suspected terrorists, i.e. people who have been convicted of nothing.

Hmmm, remand prisoners are kept in gaol and transported by the prison service. Hussain Osman was deported from Italy to the UK by chartered executive jet.

All, of course, people who have been convicted of - nothing.......

I think, in reality, you're more concerned about their detention rather than their mode of transport. What, exactly, is your problem with the contract? Cost, non-halal in-flight meals?........

B Sousa
25th Sep 2005, 14:14
get your maps out, London is closer to Scotland than NYC is to Vegas, indeed Madrid is closer to Scotland funnily enough.
Thats become somewhat realtive wtih the advent of the wheel. Sometimes easier for me to go to London than NYC.

Arab terrorists are not the only ones in the world, and I think UK in general has had more than its fair share of terrorists of all shapes and sizes.
You made my point on that one as I know OUR immigration laws suck, yours are even worse.

three brigades of well trained and supported troops in an area the size of metropolitan LA for 30 years
I cannot speak with any knowledge of this, but Im betting that Jolly Green will agree, that most of those 30 years was done with hands tied in most cases.

The insurgents in Iraq seem to be quite a capable group of people, as I am sure are many Al Qaeda and the rest, but the Intelligence they have is probably stale 72hrs after capture
As are most all Insurgents. Its on their terms and their turf. Agree on the intel.

the key to success is INCLUSION
Again, let me say, please put them on the list to move in next door to you. I certainly dont want them.......


Perhaps they are not in my country because we are not in their country using the power of the gun to win their "hearts and minds", not to mention their oil
Spycatcher, your probably correct. You can just sit back and garner any benefits that may occur from someone else taking care of business.

I mean, just compare it to the fantastic weather experienced in New Orleans, Galveston, etc
Ok, I hit a nerve for those who live there. Sorry, but consider that a Hurricane only hits once in a while. Weather in Scotland sucks all year long.

cyclicmicky
25th Sep 2005, 14:24
I was working in London when the last lot of sad sicko's blew themslves up...if they want to kill themselves that's fine by me.
Don't kill, maim and generally wound and disfigure others for your mis-led ideas though. I repeat what I said then and stand by it now, They are nothing more than murderous bastards and i would quite cheerfully execute any terrorist without any qualms whatsoever.
:suspect:

El Grifo
25th Sep 2005, 14:52
B Sousa says :-

Ok, I hit a nerve for those who live there. Sorry, but consider that a Hurricane only hits once in a while. Weather in Scotland sucks all year long.

You've clearly never visited the hallowed shores of Bonnie Scotland, have you laddie.

The weather in Scotland, rather than "sucking" all year round, actually tends to blow, if my memory serves me well.

:ok: :8 :ok:

spycatcher
25th Sep 2005, 15:04
Let me assure you B Sousa there are no benefits to me to have the likes of you tramping all over the world gun in hand "taking care of business"

I and many others would be very happy if you stopped.

Also it makes me very happy, and no doubt many other Scots equally happy to hear that you prefer Las Vegas to Scotland. I feel quite relieved to know there is no danger of you visiting.

10W
25th Sep 2005, 15:07
Weather in Scotland sucks all year long.

It's a side issue, but I could find 'bad' weather in some part of the USA all year long couldn't I ?? Therefore weather in the USA must suck :)

Mac the Knife
25th Sep 2005, 15:11
Where's Captain Ed when you need him?

"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"

OneWorld22
25th Sep 2005, 15:16
ORAC, is that last post for real or are you just taking the p**s??

They are being transported to countries to be tortured not to stand trial in the local court.

B Sousa
25th Sep 2005, 15:19
and many others would be very happy if you stopped

AS would I and many members of the current Military.......Just goes with the job......... Im certain we would if we could depend on you to pick up the slack.
Glad to hear that you are more than willing to accept thy neighbors that I would prefer not too.. Maybe we can see if a few boatloads can be diverted your way. We have our share. Then you can speak from experience, not now.

Dont get so tense over Scotland. I understand its actually a beautiful place. I just like to throw a couple barbs your way as I know a few who fly offshore and their descriptions are not that of the beaches in Majorica

Therefore weather in the USA must suck
Fairbanks Alaska, comes to my mind. go to the store in the winter and plug your car in or the engine will freeze in five minutes.....
Las Vegas where one week this summer the average daily temp was about 45C. Over 50C on the Helicopter Ramp. No arguement there.

QUOTE] hear that you prefer Las Vegas to Scotland. I feel quite relieved to know there is no danger of you visiting.[/QUOTE]

I guess it goes both ways. Quite frankly its too expensive over there. I dont care for "Scotch Whiskey" and the Beer is better in the U.K. No way do I care for Mystery Meat for dinner, so Yes you are right, no loud mouthed Americans spending money.
"Jack Daniels" new Single Barrell.......much better.

Some of you folks get upset too quickly.........Its a forum, relax...[

El Grifo
25th Sep 2005, 15:28
I think it is more likley your warped sense of humour, rather than anything else which is causing problems here.

Nobody likes a smartass.

Well nobody in most countries that is !!

:ok: :ouch: :ok:

ORAC
25th Sep 2005, 15:34
perhaps you'd clarify what you're complaining about?

The fact that suspects were being picked and taken elsewhere has been known for months, complaints about such could be placed on the politics thread. This thread expressly refers to the fact that the US navy hires aircraft for the CIA. Well I cannot see the complaint in that, unless you have a case that the CIA should expose all it's flights to international scrutiny?

You then raise the issue of internment. If you wish to dicuss that, why not reopen the Guantanamo thread?

Finally, you raise, for the first time on this thread, the issue of torture, unproven of course, and also nothing to do with the navy contract. (The same case could be made about the planned deportation of agitators from the UK. No doubt you have got to that eventually.) But it is irrelevant to the USN contract.

It would seem you merely wish to have another opportunity to have a go at the USA with almost relevance to the USN contract whatsoever.

I would suggest this thread should be rolled into the hamster Wheel thread. :hmm:

B Sousa
25th Sep 2005, 15:35
Senor Kinky...............Some do.

:ok: :cool:

Check 6
25th Sep 2005, 15:46
There are many inaccuracies in this story. The reporter apparently did much guessing, and filled in the blanks with wild arse guesses.

Renditions are nothing new, and have been reported in the media extensively.

I find it comical that many contributors to PPrune blast the media on a regular basis, but side with them when there is an opportunity to criticize the U.S.

Two faced me thinks!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

OneWorld22
25th Sep 2005, 15:52
Agreed ORAC it should be bloody well rolled into the Hamster thread.

I have been consistent in my complaints about detaining suspected terrorists without legal recourse for some time now. Nothing new there.

And clarify your jibe please, I'm anti this US Administration and their policies and having a go at them not the "USA" as a whole.

Big difference, get it right please.

OneWorld22
25th Sep 2005, 16:11
Check 6, back on your medication methinks...my whole post was directed at ORAC, not you...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

B Sousa
25th Sep 2005, 16:23
Stu
I have a few good bottles of South African Meds, next time your in Vega$

Check 6
25th Sep 2005, 16:24
OW22, my apologies my good man. I just opened a Diet Coke, so all is under control now. I picked the wrong day to quit taking valium.

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:


As for the alleged, suspected, terrorists:

Quartermaster, we need fresh probes for our cattle prod. There, that's a good lad.

DeBurcs
25th Sep 2005, 18:49
Doesn't seem like much of a secret...


As long as they get most of them belt-bombers, a few "mistakes" are okay. Aren't they??

As long as they don't mistakenly pick me up or anyone I know.


What I don't get is, if it's all a secret, why don't some of them "accidently" fall out while they're flying over the pond???

ORAC
25th Sep 2005, 21:13
How do you know they don't?...............

Ozzy
25th Sep 2005, 21:35
Wouldn't it be best to put them on a remote controlled aircraft and fly them into the ground? **** em all, including the IRA.

Ozzy

West Coast
26th Sep 2005, 05:09
"And clarify your jibe please, I'm anti this US Administration and their policies and having a go at them not the "USA" as a whole"

Under what administrations were renditions authorized?

Wanna guess at the past two?

brain fade
26th Sep 2005, 10:38
ORAC
For you to defend 'special rendition' proves that you've 'lost it'.

I'm surprised at you.

Take a deep breath and have a wee think.:ok:

ORAC
26th Sep 2005, 10:47
Defend it? Not even sure what it is!

Only point I was making is that it has little to do with the fact that the USN arranges flight charters for the CIA so that they don´t have to conduct intelligence operations in the glare of publicity. I don´t see anything wrong with that.

tony draper
26th Sep 2005, 11:32
Bring back the Feather Men I say, **** the courts.
:E

parabellum
26th Sep 2005, 12:29
No need to get too worked up about a few innocents getting rounded up in NI, after an interrogation period not exceeding 72 hours they would have been released, unharmed.

Had the B Specials not been disbanded it is highly unlikely those arrested would have been held for even that long, the 'Bs' had a very in depth knowledge of just where and who the terrorists were and could have quite possibly have prevented much of the subsequent bloodshed, sadly a policy of appeasement prevented this.

Basic methods of interrogation have changed only a little over the past fifty years and in NI they followed the basic pattern. Deprivation, humiliation and disorientation. Lack of sleep, lack of food, lack of clothes, lack of toilet facilities and interrogation induced mental fatigue. Few, if any, lasted more than seventy two hours without giving up all they knew. When they were released they were deeply tired, very hungry and had no memory of recent events. Again, the IRA got these methods suspended, claiming 'human rights' or some-such whilst blowing up innocent women and children queueing in a fish and chip shop.

What we have been shown happening in Al Graib is only an extension of the above, carried out incorrectly by totally untrained and un supervised part-timers. We all now know the identities of the guards at Al Graib, does anyone have any up to date information on the 'form' of the suspects?

OneWorld22
26th Sep 2005, 12:52
I'm not quite sure how to respond to the above "post" quite shocking really.

The interrogation methods didn't work, more often then not they just got innocent men to say what they wanted them to say becuase the torture was so bad. And a lot worse was done then simple denying them sleep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/images/ocr6_t2.jpg

Yeah it really would have stopped the bloodshed, how do you keep a lid on angry and disenchanted people? Is that your answer, just herd them in the ghettoes and shut them up?

The IRA didn't get these methods suspended it was the Irish Government who blew the whistle and went to European Commission for Human Rights and later the European Court of Human Rights. the commision found Britain guilty of torture.

DeBurcs
26th Sep 2005, 13:52
Nice.

Is that a photo of one of the downed RAF crew the Iraqis hosted and cared for so well during the '91 Beach Party?

Or one of the USAF...

I guess it could even be one of the missing Kuwaitis the Iraqia looked after so well.

So well, in fact, they are STILL missing.

At least that guy is still alive, obviously.

B Sousa
26th Sep 2005, 14:00
OW22 Guess the old saying comes into play. "Some people are alive only because its illegal to kill them."

Check 6
26th Sep 2005, 14:02
DeBurcs, it was a photo provided by the BBC, therefore it must be true! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In Vietnam helicopter rides were very effective in convincing the VC to cooperate.

OneWorld22
26th Sep 2005, 15:17
Yes, obviously the BBC were able to use Adobe Photoshop back in 1971........:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

parabellum
27th Sep 2005, 10:43
Innocent people taken into custody and interrogated by the (widely used) methods I have outlined in a previous post would not "say anything they wanted them to say", that is the fallacy, they are only in a condition to say what they know, what is established in their memory, not any suggestions from an interrogator, nothing in the short term memory at all. After 48 hours of interrogation one cannot even remember the day you arrived into custody, but you can recall actual events from the more distant past.
It was this that really upset the IRA, that they could be lifted off the streets, interrogated for four days and then released with no physical harm, having given up a stack of information.

Many of these detainees were executed by the IRA for becoming 'Informants', when the police and army acted on the information they had received but the 'informants', (detainees), were totally unaware that they had given up any information at all. Once this dawned on the IRA they went their usual route, the Irish Government, whose IRA sympathies, at the time, were well established and then made their appeal to the European Court.

If I am ever guilty of a crime I would give my right arm to have the case heard by the European Court .

The picture you show is graphic but in no way typical of the state that detainees were released, as I have tried to explain, after the Korean war physical torture was obsolete. As one can imagine , the IRA had a real problem with mental torture.

OneWorld22
27th Sep 2005, 10:51
Codswallup parabellum,

Perhaps you can explain the process that led to Gerry Conlon and others signing "confessions" to crimes they didn't do? I put it to you that people would agree to anything to stop savage beatings and torture.

The Irish govt had no "IRA Symapthies" a terrible slur you've just made on people like Jack Lynch and others. Their symapthies were for the Catholic people being beaten, attacked and murdered by Loyalists, backed up and watched by the RUC and then later, murder committed by your troops on the same people. If anything the Irish govt was too silent on the issue and were accused by many in the North of abandoning them when they needed them.

parabellum
27th Sep 2005, 11:12
Your last post says it all. You are totally subjective.

Your obvious sympathies are getting in the way of reasoned thought.

You will be telling me next that during the dreadful famine there were more exports from Ireland than imports, another well known myth.

Like it or not the IRA knew exactly how to play the 'European' game, with the aid and abet of the Irish Government.

This cost a lot of totally innocent lives. Had the authorities been allowed to act on the information they had it is highly probable that 'peace' could have come to Northern Ireland many years and many lives sooner.

OneWorld22
27th Sep 2005, 12:19
Your extremely biased views are pouring through your posts.

Would you mind explaining on what basis peace was to be founded?? The govt at the time in Stormont and Westminister was not interested in addressing the inequality and abuse. So how could peace possibly break out all of a sudden? You expected Catholics to just lie down and take the beatings and accept their status as second class citizens????

What I always love doing is asking people such as yourself how you would have addressed the issues facing the Catholic population in NI in the 60's and 70's?

They could get no adequate housing, the best paying jobs were off limits, education was a no-no for a long time and even in politics, in a supposed democratic country, they were not allowed to have justified political representation due to the gerrymandering.

And when they stood up as all oppressed people do eventually and starting asking for their rights, what happened parabellum?
They were attacked for it. Loyalist gangs backed up by the RUC violently attacked protestors for having the gall to question the status quo and proclaim it unfair. And when the Army was brought it supposedly to protect the nationalist communities, what happened?

So in this vacuum, what do you thing is the inevitable result? The people will turn to organisations like the IRA for protection
and the bumbling by the British politicians and the army pushed young people in their droves to that group. The IRA was finished in the 60's, their disatroius border camplaigns tailed off and they were reduced to a handful. The young population weren't interested in a United Ireland anymore, like blacks in the southern US they just wanted equaility.

It's a tale as old as time, you oppress people long enough and they will eventually rise upo and fight it. It's inevitable.

parabellum
27th Sep 2005, 12:52
"The govt at the time in Stormont and Westminster was not interested in addressing the inequality and abuse".
A southern view to be sure. Many very able people were doing their best at the time to bring some kind of peace to NI.

I've seen your views about 'Bloody Sunday' and have to wonder if your view of the 60's and 70's is balanced.

The rest of your post is the stuff of marches and rallies, very emotional but little else.

I revert to my original post, and repeat,
"Basic methods of interrogation have changed only a little over the past fifty years and in NI they followed the basic pattern. Deprivation, humiliation and disorientation. Lack of sleep, lack of food, lack of clothes, lack of toilet facilities and interrogation induced mental fatigue. Few, if any, lasted more than seventy two hours without giving up all they knew. When they were released they were deeply tired, very hungry and had no memory of recent events. Again, the IRA got these methods suspended, claiming 'human rights' or some-such whilst blowing up innocent women and children queueing in a fish and chip shop."

OneWorld22
27th Sep 2005, 13:05
And I've asked you to explain Conlon and others signing confessions to crimes they didn't commit after suffereing days of torture and abuse. You have again failed to answer.

I've asked you to address the inequality at the time and the conditions catholics were living in. Again you fail to answer and just indulge yourself in cheap, throwaway comments.

Are you actually denying it was not policy to keep NI segregated and keep the Nationalist/Catholic community as second class citizens? Are you suggesting that Catholics could get work in Haarland and Woolf and Shorts for example?
Are you denying the attacks on Catholic civil rights marches?
Are you denying the Gerrymandering? All of these are a matter of fact and not a subjective opinion.

It's on the record for goodness sake, Stormont was proclaimed "a protestant parliament for a protestant people." Even Trimble is on the record as saying that the Stormont government was "a cold house for Catholics".

I have to say your deep ignorance is alarming and most peculiar. Do you have any answers to these questions?

delta-golf
28th Sep 2005, 10:55
Parabellum;

The basics that you refer to is "conditioning" of prisoners, and can occasionally work on someone who has not received RTI training and is unaware of the process which they are undergoing.

I imagine that this process would have been relatively successful for the SB and IO paricipants that chose to use it for low level intelligence from marginal players. It certainly would have cut no ice with those at the core of the target organisation, and getting nowhere in a confined system leads to frustration, frustration often leads to over-reaction and more violent methods. Just keep squeezing, a little more, a little more, something will break...but only the prisoners body, and will to resist physical punishment breaks and the intelligence becomes unreliable.

Now if the US wanted to use conditioning and psychology, would they need to go to the expense of hiring aircraft to take prisoners to some of the more neanderthal interrogation centres in the world ?

B Sousa
28th Sep 2005, 15:27
It's on the record for goodness sake, Stormont was proclaimed "a protestant parliament for a protestant people." Even Trimble is on the record as saying that the Stormont government was "a cold house for Catholics".

I guess it does not matter if your Arab or Irish, religion is a good excuse to kill each other...

parabellum
29th Sep 2005, 11:29
I appreciate your efforts to get this thread back on track Delta Golf, OW22 and myself had not only dragged it off track but started a sub-thread on Irish politics.

I don't agree with everything you say though, DG. The majority of the IRA taken in off the streets were low order and the interrogation methods that were then widely used would have been sufficient. No need for physical torture. I am aware that quite often, when suspects were taken into custody they got a good hiding, this was a settling of local scores before they were ever handed on to the professional intelligence operators who never struck a physical blow. Very few, if any, of the IRA had any RTI training and none of them were 'hard men'. It doesn't take any kind of fortitude to shoot and blow up the innocents and the IRA never squared up to a face to face battle with the security forces, well, not willingly anyway.

We are fast heading into another Hamster wheel as I know OW22 won't agree with me, I won't be drawn into an argument on this thread that is just the whole NI issue again, my original post concerned methods of interrogation and that is where I stop.

OneWorld22
29th Sep 2005, 12:10
Good parabellum, I don't want to be drawn into an argument that may get personal either and have this thread closed like others have been.

You believe what you will and I'll do the same and I'll bid you farewell for now...

airship
29th Sep 2005, 13:25
Unless and until ongoing investigations are resolved satisfactorily (ie) as in Italy, IMHO, there is complete justification for an immediate EU-wide ban of:

- all US-registered commercial or GA aircraft arrivals or departures at EU airports;

- any US-registered commercial or GA aircraft merely wishing to transit when flown by non-EU personnel unless they submit full details 72h before entering EU airspace. Nevertheless, they can still be turned away at any time before landing.

- all flights by commercial or GA aircraft operated by any company with a legal presence in the USA, whether or not operated by EU crews.

That should enable all those people who live nearby EU airports a more peaceful sleep...! :O

BenThere
29th Sep 2005, 13:45
Great idea, Airship. Good luck with it.

Regarding torture, oppression and uncivilized behavior in general:

Why are so many of the West so hard on ourselves, yet so obliging to truly horrific behavior on the part of others? Certainly we have much of which not to be proud, but where is the proportionality?

Do we just expect Jihadists to behead people, that there is nothing we can do about it, so let's dwell on Abu Ghraib? Do we accept that IRA planted bombs in public places as a matter of necessity, no comment necessary, but focus on interrogations that stepped over the line?

Somehow, I intuitively see unfairness in this. It makes it an unlevel playing field. I'm certainly not endorsing cruelty or torture on the part of my side, but I would be happier if the worst, most extreme inhumanities were the object of utmost rage and approbation, then work our way down the list until we get to the man forced to wear underwear on his head.

Here's an interesting link, refer to it often for daily updates:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Default.htm#Attacks

I've been accused of tarring all Muslims with the same brush, which is untrue. I do see a problem, though.

airship
29th Sep 2005, 15:02
Great idea, Airship. Good luck with it. But I thought that was merely what the USA was trying to achieve most recently in conjunction with Chapter 11 and the Homeland Security provisions...? :rolleyes:



Why are so many of the West so hard on ourselves, yet so obliging to truly horrific behavior on the part of others? Certainly we have much of which not to be proud, but where is the proportionality? Perhaps because many Europeans are so ashamed and aghast at our own recent history that we truly mean it when we say "Never again!" ?! :8 That there is no longer any place for "commonality or proportionality" with regards to certain acts. That is the new standard which we have decided for ourselves. Just call it the new beacon, on a par with that of Ellis Island of yesteryear: lots of Europeans are still poor enough to realise the significance. So when we appear "obliging" to others' deficiencies including your own, we're merely being patient...! Hoping like the rest, that you'll come round to our point of view in due course...:}

Re-Heat
29th Sep 2005, 15:15
The problem with suspected terrorists is that you need to wait for them to blow people up before they are proven guilty.
What tosh - one can always arrest someone planning to mass murder. If there is evidence then prosecute. If not, then there is no basis for holding them/abducting them/rendition.

I cannot see any argument that can be more logically persuasive or simple than that.

B Sousa
29th Sep 2005, 15:25
That should enable all those people who live nearby EU airports a more peaceful sleep...!

Might be a great idea. Which of course works both ways...... Maybe let the EU finance the U.N. which most over there love so dearly..
You may be on to something..