P2 on the C208. What's that?

[oompilot]

I overheard some, up and coming pilots, discussing how and where they log there P2 hours on the C208 Caravan. It seems they log these P2 hours as PIC in their log books! Is this legal?
Can anyone shed some light on this topic as to why it’s permited.

[mach decimal 83]

Hello Oom

Here is how it is supposed to be log according to the CAA

If you are a copilot on the 208, flying in the right hand seat, you are allowed to log those hours as "single engine co-pilot" time. All these hours count towards your total time, but only half of it, towards a higher license (ATPL).

Co-Pilot flying in the left hand seat, may log it as P1 and everything counts towards the higher license.

Captain may log all the hours as P1, regardless where he sits and if two captains fly together, both may log command time.

I now that some airline companies does not accept the P2 time on a 208

Hope this answers your question

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Eh?

How can both log command time? Further weakening of the validity of SA qualifications in the rest of the world...:{

[Beta Light]

As far as I understand there is no P2 rating on C208, as it is single pilot certified. This mean even with a fresh rating you are a "Captain "on the C208.

Don't log hours in the right hand seat. Remember, the airlines at interview would like to see you perform in accordance with your hours logged. Rather under log and perform like a higher time pilot, then arriving with a logbook that you cannot back up in the sim.... Just my advice

[Tango24]

When enquiring about this very issue to the SACAA, I was told that you could log the P2 hours, if your companies operational manual require a two crew operation on the type. However, you may only use half of the hours to your higher license.

:O

[SeeCharlie]

I'm open to correction but I think flights at night in the commercial catagory require 2 crew.

Go 4 it

[ZS-NDV]

Hey All,

I can confirm what Tango24 just said:

If company requies 2 man crew on C208, right hand seat pilot can log P2 hours but only 50% count towards ATPL.

Cheers

ZS-NDV

[B Sousa]

Whats next P2 time in a C-152?? You guys are really stretching the ink in those pens.........

[mach decimal 83]

Beta, your'e right, no P2 rating on the 208, but obviosly, no company will let a fresh 200 hour pilot fly as a captain on it.

Same goes for the BE20 an B190 that both are certified as a single crew ops.

Again one of those grey areas in SA Aviation, just the same as the B190 which is clocking in at 16500 lbs, but only requires 2 comm pilots to operate it. I mean, doesn't the law state that above 5700kgs an ATP is necessary to operate the a/c?! Also agree with those guys that say not to log those hours on the 208, even if the CAA says you can, at the end it is not the CAA that's going to give you a job as an airline pilot

[4HolerPoler]

Anything greater than 5,700 kgs (12,500lbs) = ATP requirement. Call me a nitpicker.

4HP

[oompilot]

If I am a P2 on a 747 lets say, I log P2 in a column in my log book that accommodates it. Nothing changes as far as my PIC hours are concerned. Seems unethical to me then, that a pilot on an aircraft certified for one crew doesn’t increase his P2 time but rather his P1. My company regulations have nothing to do with that legal document, called a logbook.
No guys, stop. You are cheating.

[B Sousa]

Anything greater than 5,700 kgs (12,500lbs) = ATP requirement. Call me a nitpicker.

OK, your a nitpicker...............I flew the CH-34(S-58) PIC Single Pilot. It grossed out at 12900. Dont tell anyone I never got my ATP. They wont understand how I got it off the ground.

Whats with this ATP surge all of a sudden. Commercial IFR does the same thing.........OK, you took a test and paid the CAA more..
I fly next to ATPs everyday and dont notice anything more special about them. Let me know so I can beg some more Beer as a lowly comm guy.. Ha Ha
Splain yourself Brother.........

[Exhaust Manifold]

According to law any turbine a/c used in commercial ops requires 2 crew :ok:

[fireitup]

Majority of the operations and contracts these days require two crew...even on the van. If you're a 200 comm pilot who's in the pickle...congrats, you've got you're foot in the door with a job but never forget about your long term goal.....

P2 hours on a van have no real value when looking for a better job...but keep logging them..even at the back...so in the next year or so you can go to your company and see if you can step up to the 200's or 1900's.

Rather start out with a P1 rating...fly 50hrs U/S then leg for leg, if your company allows it.

"just my 2 cents advice for the 200hr P2 guys":ouch:

[Kernel]

The SACAA does recognise comm pilots flying as P2 on a Van. In fact my initial rating was a P2 rating and endorsed as such in my licence.

The fact that CAA issue P2 ratings on Caravans means that they cannot get upset if one logs it in their logbooks as single engine copilot...

[lambert]

This question is a perennial. Is it too much to expect of the CAA that they publish an AIC to resolve the situation once and for all??

Interesting to note that there is no column in standard logbooks for S/E copilot but the SAAF logbooks do.

My solution was to indicate clearly which 208 hours were as a P2 and then not include the hours in my total. I recorded the P2 hours but didn't log them.

[Komba]

I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that the whole P2 on the 208 came about when there were lots of 208's on UN contracts and the UN stipulated that all UN aircraft must have 2 crew.

[fireitup]

Komba..correct, all UN contracts require 2 crew on C208'S.

Is it not just easier to use a FAA/JAR logbook with columns available for SE P2 and ME P1 U/S???

Get a Jepp logbook in the beginning and save yourself from the headaches?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Bert

An ATP comes with the God given gift of being able to locate free beer.....:E

[DualDriver]

But there is NO single engine P2 column in civilian logbooks. How do you log it. If you're not P1, don't log it. Someone said it earlier, that's cheating....:hmm:

[Cessnafan]

But there is NO single engine P2 column in civilian logbooks. How do you log it. If you're not P1, don't log it. Someone said it earlier, that's cheating....

You can log it, just use the reg:ZS-BIC;)

[SebasW]

As far as I'm concerned if your in the cockpit, you can log the hours is some way at least.

What I have done is log the C208 P2 time in the back of your logbook to keep it seperate from the rest and CAA seems to accept this way of doing it.

As far as logging P1 in the right seat, that's hogwash.

It's the same for any aircraft that operates multi crew. If you sit left, you log P1. If you sit right you log P2. Easy as that...

[B Sousa]

As far as logging P1 in the right seat, that's hogwash.
Not so fast...........Could one who is a CFI in the Aircraft be giving Instruction from the right seat and take P1 time, with the left seat doing P1 or SP??

Lets not make this confusion to easy.........

[SebasW]

giving Instruction from the right seat and take P1 time, with the left seat doing P1 or SP??

Training is completely different. If someone is giving instruction, then obviously the instructor will log P1 time but the "student" will then log duel.

If the "student" is logging PICUS (P.I.C. under supervision), then the instructor must either log P2 or nothing at all. You cannot both log P1.

If you do however log P1 in the right seat, it might lead to trouble further down to your career because a question that almost all airlines ask is "Did you sit left seat for all you command time?" If you say you did not, they will most likely not see it as P1 time, unless of course it was instruction. :ok:

[oompilot]

My opinion. Sit right seat and log time on a C208. You are a loser. I wouldn’t let you fly my kids kite! Justify it as you wish, loser.

[B Sousa]

My opinion. Sit right seat and log time on a C208. You are a loser. I wouldn’t let you fly my kids kite! Justify it as you wish, loser.

Can we say that equates to logging any time on a Robbie...........ha ha

[gofor]

If you are pilot flying (PIC), hold a P1 and have recieved training in the seat you are occupying (LorR) you can log P1 time - that easy!

[Exhaust Manifold]

oom just remember that this is the only way that some struggle pilots with low time can build their hours. It's not easy to find a job and I would probably do the same if I were in their position. I agree it may be hogwash, but in our now cut-throat industry it is, for some, the only way to move forward. Unfortunate but true.

[lambert]

Ninety percent of this thread has been unsubstantiated opinion - not fact.

If this situation affects you directly get a ruling from the CAA. Comply with the ruling and keep a copy in your logbook.

QED

[SebasW]

My opinion. Sit right seat and log time on a C208. You are a loser. I wouldn’t let you fly my kids kite! Justify it as you wish, loser.

With all due respect, loser, if that is how you feel about the van, the same should apply to the king air and even the 1900 which is stated by the manufacturer to be a single crew aircraft.

My previous posts about logging single-engine P2 hours comply with the SACAT/CARS which govern myself, you and anyone else flying in or under South Africa's laws.

Time's change and with the increasing hazards of flying in some areas of Africa, where South African aircraft operate, the governing authority has deemed it necesary to fly with two crew and that is the way it has to be... need I remind you about the 200 that was attacked and one of its crew killed in flight? Same can happen with the Van.

It's purely for safety.

[Soap Box Cowboy]

It's intresting to note that as the Caravan is a single pilot airplane and certified as such, how can you get a P2 rating on it?

The only way I can see both crew logging hours is if they are both rated as P1's. In this scenario you would have a senior pilot who is rated on the aircraft and covered by the insurance (The Captain). Then you have a second pilot who is alos rated as a P1 but does not meet insurance requirments (The Co-pilot).

The Van comes with a dual cockpit and it is possible to fly the aircraft from the right with the exception of starting and shutting down. (Technically possible from the right if your not a small guy and the captain doesn't mind you lying in his lap). Also positions of instruments make it hard to do IR approaches from the right.

So with the exception of start and shutdown the co-jo can perform the entire flight. In which case he could log P1/us. The Senior pilot remains the P1 for insurance. They might even be able to trade seats on legs (All depends on insurance).

That way young guys can log hours on a van but only as P1/us and as long as they conduct the majority of the flight.

Seems unfair to have to spend all that time in the aircraft and not come away with some hours, especially when Airlaws require two crew on single crew planes. But also make note of these hours, some future employers like some of the people on this post might be a little disinclined towards this. At the end of the day you can say that you were rated and you logged the hours because you worked for them.

Canadian air law permits a person to log P1 from the right if they conduct the majority of the flight.

On the flip side I've heard of guys paying to get their rattings on Metro Liners and then not being allowed to touch the controls. Also of one pilot who flew a 737 for 800 hours and have never landed or taken off.

[Jetstream_lover]

Hey guys,
looking for some contsructive input here, i am sometimes a co-jo on a caravan, i have a P1 rating in the aircraft but due to insurance requirements cant fly left seat yet, so the big question is when i am Pilot Flying (PF) do i log the hours as P1 u/s and when i am flying as Pilot Non Flying (PNF) log them as P2. I would appreaciate some good input please as i know what some of you guys think of co-jo's on vans, but someone need the keep the Captain company.
Cheers guys

[prospector]

The time should be logged as supernumerary I believe.
Cannot log as P1, you are not P1
Cannot log as P2, P2 not rquired.

To indicate to a third party that you have hopefully absorbed a bit of knowledge with the time in P2 seat, but cannot officially log this time, supernumerary pilot covers all bases.

Supernumerary: Additional to the required or normal number.

Hopefully the column would not be required for long.

Prospector

[oompilot]

No matter how dangerous the flying conditions in Africa or wherever have become, the cockpit operational procedures shouldn’t change. In other words it is still a single crew operation. Fly leg for leg and log the leg you flew.
If it is that times are tuff for up and coming pilots bending the law and lowering SA log book credibility is not the answer.

[Exhaust Manifold]

bending the law

:confused: :confused: :confused:

As i've stated before the law requires any turbine a/c commercially operated to have 2 crew.

So the law says you need 2 crew rated on the a/c, but you can't log it? Doesn't seem right to me. P2 on a van aren't the most attractive to log, but if I flew right seat because the law required 2 crew then I would log it.

If an airline tells me they won't accept those hours thats fine, they could also tell me all my tomahawk hours don't count for anything, but I log those too :}

[B Sousa]

We can end this whole thing with the axiom "Fly what you have too, log what you need."

[Kennytheking]

Hi guys,

Speaking as someone who has to assess cv's from time to time, here is my 2 cents worth. The law is actually quite clear on this.

CAR 61.01.16 (5) A commercial pilot, when acting as co-pilot in aircraft not normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 25 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such, towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence: Provided that such pilot is the holder of the appropriate class, type and group type rating.

Now point 4 of the same CAR covers the logging of co-pilot time on a type requiring a P2 ie you may log the time in full but only 50% towards higher licence. The wording of the 2 paragraphs are virtually identical.....so by inference, one could reasonably deduce that you may log the C208 P2 time in full but only 25% towards higher licence.

I know there may be a question about whether a C208 falls into the category of 'not normally required to operate with a co-pilot' because the CAA require 2 pilots......that is semantics. Treat it as not requiring a co-pilot and take the credit you can. Anything else could be viewed as taking a chance!

I feel that operating as a co-pilot on a C208 has merit.....it is experience. But there are limits. It should be logged to the extent neccesary to move up and meet insurance requirements within your own operation. After that, if you come to me with 2000 hours C208 P2 time there is a problem. I would imagine that a guy learns the 'van' well in the right seat and within 500 hours on type, should be flying left seat.

I would imagine that if this C208 P2 time is of cardinal import in your logbook, then the job you are trying to get is not likely to be an airline and is most probably a small part 135 operator, who in all likelyhood has their own opinion on the validity of the P2 hours.....just be upfront with them.

Also as a matter of interest, hours are not everything. I am often more interested in where a pilot has been flying and what other value he could bring to the table.

Ok.....thats it.

KTK
PS.....Oh, and according to the CAA website, Part 61 not yet promulgated or in use but I think you can see where they are headed.

[Exhaust Manifold]

If you're flying co jo on a 737 you'd log all the time, but only 50% can go to a higher licence. So why is it a big deal logging all the time P2 in a van. According to the law you are a flight crew member so you can therefore log the hours.

If you don't think it's right to log it don't, but those that are logging it aren't breaking the law and so shouldn't come under scrutiny because your opinions differ.

Must say this has been a good debate so far :ok:

[contraxdog]

Lets look at this from a slightly different perspective. Lets look at the philosophy behind a logbook.
(Please correct me if I am wrong, at any time.)

The purpose of a logbook first and foremost is to reflect the experience one have personally gained in aircraft, as a crewmember.

This experience can be broken down into the following types of experience:

1.1. Experience as Student
1.2. Experience as Pilot
1.33. Experience as Co-Pilot.

This experience can be broken down further into day and night and instrument flying. Into type of of aircraft and whether or not the types are single or multi-engined. It can also be broken down into how many landings one has done or how many approaches you have made. In actual fact you can carry on to break it up as much as you like. Even how many whie or blue aircraft you flew.

In order to make it easier for the powers to be, to compare/measure experience, they set out rules that determine the parameters of the the minimum data they required to be reflected in a logbook. Allthough this data should be reflected, it doesnt stop you to add a column or break it down even further.
If you look at the logbooks of pilots that flew in WW 1 the fact that they didnt reflect all the data we do today doesnt make their logbooks less valid at all! Its reflects the experiences of a pilot as crewmember in terms of the requirement of the day. They had for instance a page to write comments like:

"...saw the Hun today for the first time. Manage to shoot one down, and return unharmed!"

Thus, it should reflect the experience you would like to reflect, as long as it reflects a record of the data that is required by the authorities of the day. Just as it would be deemed dishonest to reflect experience you have not gained, experience not reflected should be frown upon as well, because it would show dishonesty.

I hope when I hand my logbook in oneday, it will be read as a testimonial of what my life as journeyman was like. Not as a competition, or as an achievement, but as a reflection, of what I have done.

''The world is you exercise-book, the pages on which you do your sums. It is not reality, although you can express reality there if you wish. You are free to write nonsence, or lies, or tear the pages." Richard Bach

[chuks]

I went through something similar in the States, a long time ago now, when I was a co-pilot on a Twin Otter for a regional airline.

I could log P2 whenever I was required as second-in-command, even though the Twin Otter was a single-pilot aircraft. If there were a trip where I wasn't required (re-positioning, say) then I was either P3 (under instruction) or else 'just along for the ride,' since I was not on the insurance as P1.

When I was the sole manipulator of the controls I could log P1/S (pilot-in-command under supervision), when the Captain would still log P1. There was no time that the FAA would allow both crew to log P1. The only exception to this is on a practical test, when, if you pass, both you and the examiner are considered to have been P1.

Who is PF (Pilot Flying) and who is PNF (Pilot Not Flying) has nothing to do with who is P1 or P2. The Captain remains P1 because he has the ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. In other words, if the other fellow is PF and messes up, the Captain cannot say, 'But I was only PNF' and escape blame. The P2 shares the responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight but it still rests, ultimately, with whoever is P1.

We have the same system with the hours only counting for half towards an ATP.

If it's any consolation, I can remember very well scrounging desperately for multi-engine P1 hours. There was that double bind of needing the hours to get the insurance approval and needing the approval to get the hours. But if you just stick with it, even if it is 'just' a job on a C-208 and try to always give it your best shot then your break will come some day.

Remember the joke about the guy sweeping up after the circus elephant. When asked if he didn't want to get a better job he replied, 'What! And get out of show business?' So you are in aviation, even if it's just the right seat of a van.

[Beta Light]

Lambert said it:

Record it but don't log it

[SebasW]

I have to disagree oompilot...

What contraxdog is saying is true... You might not be able to count all of it towards a higher license but it is still experience.

If you can justify it, you can log it. It still counts towards total time and time on type.

[cavortingcheetah]

;) oompilot. If I may, a thought on your predicament.

Up and coming pilots? Sound fractionally more like down and out aviators to me.
A Cessna Caravan? A rather large aircraft with a PT6 in the front? Invented for the third world UN in a rather successful commercial enterprise to drag aviation down to its LCD? Try selecting reverse at six inches if you want to find out all about short field landings?
If anyone has to fight about P1/P2 hours in a thing like that then that poor old pilot must be both desperate and rather undeserving of a position of responsibility in any company whose Chief Pilot can see through the bulldust and balderdash of his pleading and bamblusterating job applicants.
Any time logged on a Caravan must be viewed with great suspicion as being indicative of unsupervised and uncontrolled aircraft time, usually performed at the jolly old taxpayer's expense.
I wouldn't employ a Caravan driver to navigate my Bentley, let alone a real aeroplane. Are they all from the salt pans?

[Exhaust Manifold]

Well cavortingcheetah, would you take someone who has P2 hours on a B200, a Premier 1, C402? Because according to the POH they are all single crew certified. So what is the difference between logging P2 on them and on the Van :confused:

I don't see those hours in question here but they are nonetheless just as valid (or "invalid" :D ).

[cavortingcheetah]

:D

Great Smoking Peace Pipes.

Straight answer? No way. P2 on a Beech or Bandit aka a radio operator. P1 on a Tom Tom thingy would be much more useful.

:cool:

[Exhaust Manifold]

So would you take P1 on tomahawk then :p

Boy pilots on boeings log P3 and they're mostly radio jocks, so logging P2 on a Van for doing radio seems fair ;) (bet when I fly a fluffy I won't have this problem :D )

[oompilot]

Ok, Having read Kennythekings CAR61.01.16 story, there is something in black and white giving some form of guide line as to logging the hours. That, and with what Exhaust Manifold pointed out about the P3’s logging time, which by the way falls under the same part in the law and is not questioned, I would say log it. Changed my opinion.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

From this and other postings which seem to dwell upon the sorry state of aviation back home south of the green and greasy; I should like to nominate myself as the next candidate for Director, CAA/ZA or, Chief Pilot, SAA.
I have loads of P4 time, usually spent in the front row of First Class, stroking up the egos, as well as other parts of the anatomy, of the cabin attendants. (Female, for the use of)!.
I also have a modicum of P1,2,3, and 5 time, usually spent stoking up the egos of funny F/Os.
Toodle Pip!:p

[Exhaust Manifold]

So unlike the leopard the cheetah can't change its spots :p

My hours in economy class P5, P6 :confused: :confused:

[pointer41]

I am truly amazed at what I see here! The C208 is a venerable aircraft, and for a lot of youngsters the entry level turbine aircraft. Remember, these are guys paying with their own sweat and blood and believing so much in their dreams that they will work in far away places for little money to achieve their goal: flying and inproving themselves. CasnortingCheetah, who the h#ll are you to degrade those pilots?

In addition, look at the insurance: money makes the world turn and some companies will require 750hrs Van time before insurance will allow them to take command of one. Now how do those youngsters get those hours? Enough said.

Most of the companies I know operating Vans are of good repute with the local airlines companies (the bottom line for aspiring pilots) and operate P1 and P2 on the Van. In fact, their SOPs, policies and insurance (again that word) demands it.

So give these guys a break in their career and respect what they are doing, putting hard work and tears in bettering themselves. The C208 is a high turnover aircraft in terms of crew, i.e. the pilots will leave for more advanced and bigger aircraft the minute they get the chance, and by far the majority of Van pilots are the salt of the earth.

Here endeth my tirade....:p

[cavortingcheetah]

:p

Heavens above. As perusal of past pages will demonstrate, cheetah changes fur coat more easily than a Japanese harlot changes lipstick.:cool:

[bush van]

Good day everybody,
I am i caravan co-pilot. Currently i have 800hours TT, of which 450 on the van. 300RHS 150LHS. Due to UN requirements i cant sit LHS till1500TT. People say because i have P1 rating on the thing i can log RHS p1 time, which is saying the same thing, as a B1900 co-pilot with a P1 rating logging P1 time in the RHS. So i log co-pilot time in the back, and only use 25%towards a higher licence.

As a low time pilot, some how we must build hours till we meet minimum requirements, the only way is to sit RHS on the van, and get to 1500hours. No opreator will put a 200Hour comm-pilot in the LHS of a van.

[sky waiter]

While or you lot are going on about P5 P6 etc etc...

I have 1600hrs as cabin crew, economy and business, so what do i get to log towards my total time, oh and its on 737 and 727, surely there is a column in my logbook for that?? ;)

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

In my UK logbook there is a column headed:

SPO
F/Nav
F/Eng
RTO

This is known as the Pwee column.

SPO obviously stands for Service Provider Operative and thus would be suitable for you to log a record of your silver service accomplishments.
:=

[chuks]

When you have the good fortune to come into aviation close to the top and stay there then it would look pretty pathetic to worry about logging P1 in a Cessna 208 Caravan. But not all of us have enjoyed such good fortune!

I remember such glorious episodes as being employed as a human autopilot on a Douglas DC-3, also known as the 'Greasy Three'. Well, we used to fly it from West Palm Beach, Florida out to Treasure Cay, Bahamas and put 5 gallons of straight mineral oil in each engine on turn-around and then douche it down with 100LL back at base in Opa Locka. Not that we were breaking regs by flying an aircraft with 'visible oil leaks' since you couldn't see if it was leaking due to its overall state of greasiness. I kept one of my ragged pilot's shirts just for DC-3 duty, the one with the grey polka-dot effect from blowing oil when I had something to do in the slipstream of the running engines.

I was the guy who would hold it steady in cruise while the real pilot worked his way through a half-gallon of coffee and a pack of fags, each way. I got to put the gear up and down, operate the flaps, talk on the radio, fuel and oil it and, finally, dump the 2 1/2- gallon pail that served as a toilet. Wha-hey, I was in professional aviation! And I logged all that time as P2 or P1/S, every minute of it, because I needed multi-engine time.

So now that I am a genuine, go-to-hell jet captain, I should look down on the poor b*ggers of today, trying to scratch out a foothold in aviation? Jeez, give these guys a break! It's not as if they are logging P-51 time ('P' for 'Parker', a popular American brand of biro). They just want to know what the rules are.

It has never been easy for many of us to get into aviation. Those who found a slot without really having to sweat that out, because they were more qualified, talented, had a father who was an airline captain or whatever ... well, that's great! But aviation's a broad church and there must be room for the ragged peasants stood at the back as well as the ones with reserved pews right up front.

[cavortingcheetah]

:rolleyes:

Room for peasants? Most assuredly not! Never, not no how! Not even if they played compound scales on the grand piano, unless perhaps it were a Bechstein or a Hamburg produced Steinway? Something of the like which might have twinkly tinkled under the African sky near old man Wilberforce. There used to be a tune called 'Captains and Commanders'. I don't quite know what happened to it but I am sure that the philosophy behind the music has not yet faded away.
I thought your post was excellent when it came to the topographical scenario.;)
Toodle Pip.:eek: