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OldCessna
22nd Sep 2005, 12:52
BOSTON (AP) — A Cape Air pilot and British citizen who was barred from learning to fly larger planes because federal authorities determined he was a potential national security threat, says he can now no longer do his job because he has been put on the federal no-fly list.

Robert William Gray, 35, sued the federal government in July after he was denied permission from the Transportation Security Administration to take flight training courses so he could fly larger planes. The TSA said in its rejection that Gray poses a "threat to aviation or national security."

In federal court on Wednesday, Gray's lawyers argued that by placing him on the no-fly list, the government is retaliating because of his lawsuit, and asked a judge to order the government to take him off the list.

But U.S. District Judge Douglas P. Woodlock said he lacks jurisdiction over the matter, which must be decided by a federal appeals court.

Gray, a native of Belfast, Northern Ireland, has been living in the United States since 1993 and has been flying small commercial planes since 1997. For the last four years, he has been flying for Cape Air, and has occasionally carried Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., and U.S. Rep. William Delahunt, D-Mass., on his flights.

A couple of weeks ago, Cape Air officials told him he could no longer pilot planes because he was on the no-fly list, essentially meaning he is unable to do his job.

"I haven't been involved in any kind of terrorism, and I have never committed a crime," said Gray, who lives in Yarmouth.

"Ever since I came here I have loved this country for what it stands for, and this goes against everything that I've learned about this country and how it treats people," he said.

Federal prosecutors, citing national security concerns, refused to confirm in open court that Gray is even on the no-fly list. They said the government would only disclose its reasons to the judge privately without sharing them with defense lawyers.

Prosecutors denied claims of retaliation.

When Gray was denied permission for further flight training, he was told only that the decision was based on derogatory information that the agency would not disclose because it is classified.

Since terrorists used commercial jets in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the government has reviewed all foreigners who apply for flight training.

He said in his lawsuit that he thinks he is a victim of mistaken identity.

Gray said the TSA did not explain the reason for his rejection, but did provide a printout from a U.S. Customs computer that indicated Gray was Hispanic. Gray is white.

"If they can't get that right, then what else have they got wrong?" Gray said outside of court on Wednesday.

Gray is getting married to a U.S. citizen next month, but his fiancee says the couple have had to cancel plans to visit Gray's mother in Ireland and a honeymoon in Italy.

———

Information from: The Boston Globe, http://www.boston.com/globe

MarkD
22nd Sep 2005, 13:16
well, he was associating with a known security risk (Ted Kennedy has been bumped from flights because of being on the no-fly)

derekl
22nd Sep 2005, 13:35
One of my colleagues saw an older gentleman (white, business-suited, distinguished) being given the full treatment at SFO (belt off, shoes twice through X-Ray, wand over body etc etc).

When it was all over, they allowed Senator Bob Dole to fly to D.C.

But then, California voters, largely Democrats, may just have being trying to stick it the Republican that ran against Clinton.

FearlessFreep
22nd Sep 2005, 22:28
If this Brit loves the US so much and since he has been here since 1993 then he should have become a citizen. He would have more rights and more recourse in his current plight.

Since he has not bothered to become a citizen it is apparent he is only here for a job. He is an opportunist.

Seeing how it is very difficult if not impossible for US Citizens to get residency and jobs in many other countries - like, say the UK, I am not going to cry any salty tears for this bloke.

niknak
22nd Sep 2005, 22:55
At 35 years old, the vast majority of pilots (I accept that not all) would have decided where their true career path was to be.

Additionally, the U.S is not exactly the place to be at the moment to establish a stable flying career with the major airlines, whereas in the UK and Europe there are many opportuntities available.

One has to wonder about this gentleman's real intentions.

Capt Pit Bull
22nd Sep 2005, 22:59
FF

it is apparent he is only here for a job.

I guess the

is getting married to a U.S. citizen next month

slipped past your attention span then.

Seems to me like you are intimating what may have happened to him is OK because he isn't a US Citizen. You might want to consider how that makes you look.

pb

G-CPTN
22nd Sep 2005, 23:45
>a printout from a U.S. Customs computer that indicated Gray was Hispanic.

**********************************
So that'll be correct then? Like the Bond case (no, not James Bond, Derek Bond):-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2808503.stm
"The British pensioner falsely accused of being one of the United States' most wanted men is considering suing the FBI."
How the mix-up happened:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2799929.stm

Semaphore Sam
22nd Sep 2005, 23:48
FearlessF, and other short-sighted folk:
Our government has gone irrationally secretive and arbitrary...it's now trying to dispose of many of our civil liberties and protections. The problem is, nobody cares, it seems.

First they came for the Jews, and I did nothing, because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the priests...etc, etc.

Whether this bloke should seek work here or not, is beside the point, and may justify another topic; but, all of us are becoming more and more at risk by Federal Crazies.

Sam

Hand Solo
22nd Sep 2005, 23:58
How about this from an INS jobsworth to one of our Spanish cabin crew last at BOS last month:

INS : Whats your name?

Hostie: ******

INS: You need to go fill in another form.

Form duly filled in

INS: Whats your name?

Hostie: ******

INS: You need to marry a nice Englishman. Too many people called ****** in jail over here.

:ugh: Jobsworth name duly noted in case of future encounters.

Ignition Override
23rd Sep 2005, 04:40
We have far too many government departments. The numerous law enforcement departments and their specialties, or overlap, to me are quite baffling. How many intelligence agencies do we have? How well, now several years after the 9/11 mass murders, do these departments share intelligence? The blame for clusters of bureaucracies can not rest necessarily on any one president, or can it? Were most of these created over decades by past presidents, or is the decision shared with Congress?

Using the lack of a US passport is no excuse to put somebody on a list of suspects. This is blatant nationalistic arrogance of the crudest form, although this might be common in other countries, as well. Whether one has a given passport has absolutely no connection to the possibility of supporting terrorists. How old we are when we decide to pursue/change careers also has no connection to whether a person has criminal intent. A photo of a (German) Luftwaffe transport jet (A-300?) was taken somewhere last week on the Gulf Coast. How does our wonderful TSA or Homeland "Security" know that one of the crewmembers is not named Baader or Meinhof? The infamous pair with these names in the 70s and 80s were involved, along with people in many other nations, with terrorism. Many crossed borders and trained with Middle-Eastern groups. The foreign minister of a major (sehr grosses) European country was once "allegedly" involved with radicals, and attended a Middle-Eastern conference for the PFLP. At home, he "allegedly" helped severely beat up a policeman during a demonstration, and also "allegedly" threw a Molotov c0cktail, which seriously burned a policeman. This guy was not blocked in recent years from entering the US, or doing his govt. job: he could probably live here if he wanted to, somewhere very "green".... How about the other planes or ships who come into US airports every day? Some of those crewmembers might also have the same names as former terrorists.

Frankly, I am ashamed of how some of our United States bureaucrats, whether in D.C. or an airport (mostly those who work for new government agencies, i.e. TSA, Homeland "Insecurity", still trying to justify their many billion$ in annual budgets), strut around with their Napoleonic complexes and step on the little guys/gals who have no proven involvement with dangerous people or organizations. The US government often thinks of itself as being a leader on the world's stage. It should set a much better example here at home-it is extremely difficult to portray this image in most of the world, even without the chaotic lack of a workable disaster plan for its own backyard.

:hmm:

Bigmouth
23rd Sep 2005, 05:44
FFreep and niknak

Yours have to be the two dumbest posts I've read on pprune.

LX-GB1
23rd Sep 2005, 09:10
@ Fearless

There are plenty of Americans working here in Europe but if there are those who have problems getting work/residence permits, maybe it is retaliation by the authorities here whose citizens have trouble getting into the US.

I have an english friend who lives and works in Florida but he cannot get permanent residence or a green card, but if you land at JFK and try to find an english-speaking cab-driver you cannot!

What the hell is US immigration policy? Let potential enemies in, who do not share your language, religion or culture but keep your friends out?

And why are Brits put on lists when your president claims we are his allies?

The truth is that the people in charge in the US do not have the slightest clue as to what is happening in the world. The US has upset so many people, including many white, christian europeans that your country does not know who it can trust anymore.

Your leaders have made your bed and now you must all lie on it. Unfortunately many innocent people will suffer because of your country's paranoia.

Remember the singer Cat Stevens, who turned Muslim? Expelled from the US as threat to national security - your leaders are afraid of 'words', free speech - that's pathetic!

I am Britisih and had an unlimited, multiple re-entry visa for 10 years but it was rescinded along with ALL the others like me. I am no longer interested in visiting a country that now treats me as a potential threat and wants my DNA before I can get in.

The US is going down the tubes and it is time to learn Chinese.

Have a nice day :o)

PS A man is innocent until PROVEN guilty. If it cannot be proven becuase the evidence is classified, probably the evidence is false but in any case it is not proven. The pilot should be allowed to work. Anyway, he can always be spied on, by the Federal Bunch of Idiots.

El Grifo
23rd Sep 2005, 10:02
I share your view entirely LX.

The situation has become intolerable.

The authorities have been totally cowed by the terrorists, to the extent that they treat their friends like the enemy. What is more, they appear to love doing it.

I no longer use Miami as hub after the reprehensible treatment meted out to me on my last vist and that was merely as an "In Transit" Passenger.

How the mighty have fallen and at such a speed.

:suspect: :confused: :suspect:

Duff beer
23rd Sep 2005, 10:36
I suppose there are two ways of looking at it.

It is their country and hence they make the rules. We just have to jump through the hoops, smile nicey at whatever ignorant hispanic immigration officer is on duty and keep our dignity.

I know no one likes going there but its the job and I have to do it. I know Ill never go there in my own time. Shame cos its a hell of a place!!

Ill stick to Canada for now. Its always a pleasure entering.

Bart O'Lynn
23rd Sep 2005, 11:43
Ffreep and niknak.
With attitudes like yours that show up the dominant redneck philosophy at the moment is it any surprise many people in the world have no problem bumping of your fat poorly trained national guardsmen for sport. Maybe they'd rather you fecked off home and live in your twisted shallow pseudo christian ignorant bubble. Mr gray would be better off leaving thenstaes with his wife. Rather than expose another child to your plastic twisted society.
MY that came out easily

Airbubba
23rd Sep 2005, 12:15
>>...With attitudes like yours that show up the dominant redneck philosophy at the moment is it any surprise many people in the world have no problem bumping of your fat poorly trained national guardsmen for sport.<<

One cannot imagine a similar rant against the UK or Israel being tolerated here but it is normal PPRuNe banter when directed against America.

Yep, it's terrible over here, that boy should burn his green card in protest.

Wish we had streamlined immigration bureaucracy like the UK...

"The food in this place is really terrible. Yes, and such small portions." - Woody Allen

FearlessFreep
23rd Sep 2005, 13:21
I love it when I can engender such emotional responses with an off the cuff statement.

The good ol' US of A has been the punching bag for the whole world for quite a long time - specifically our position in the world post WW II.

We will be continually harangued for either the action we take or do not take.

While you all go off pointing your finger at the US can't you remember the London Bombings? The UK has the same problems that the US does - the whole world does for that matter. Go to Germany and you here the same rhetoric about their immigrants. Go down to the Middle East where the Pakistani's are treated like slave labor. I love the way the Brit's love to denigrate us for the way we handle our immigrants - they have more derogatory phrases for people of color than we have ever been able to dream up here in the states. What about the UK's previous extensive forays into Colonialism?

The US is the most racially diverse country on the planet and has been so the longest in recent history. That brings a lot of it's own problems. It is not perfect here and no American would profess that it is. My question is if it is so horrible here what is that bloke pilot doing here?

The bloke that is here in the states has been here since 1993, that's 12 years! Only now he is looking at getting his citizenship when he has expressed his love for the country so fervently?

Maybe it is a case of mistaken identity - but then maybe not, who knows. To depend on the coverage of the media (from any country) is a fool’s game.

The whole world has had to tolerate the actions from a group of Middle East based religiously intolerant zealots. The Western World has shown overall unwavering tolerance to the influx of Eastern people and their religious beliefs into our societies. For that we get our teeth kicked in. Some of these people are in fact converts to these faiths and could in fact be your white bread neighbor, and/or are in fact citizens of the countries where they reside.

There is no one that is innocent of guilt in this world, we are all born into it and suffer under the actions of our forefathers.


Good Day!

haughtney1
23rd Sep 2005, 13:43
Getting back to the specifics of the issue...

So what if hes been there 12years and isnt a citizen...

Who cares who is multicultural and who isnt..

The reality of this situation is rather obvious to anyone with half a brain (that includes most americans I've had the pleasure to meet).
The US govt in its omnipotent wisdom has decreed such purile, inflexible, and pointless border/immigration controls that it has become the laughing stock of most of the western world.
The fact that this chap has been flying for X amount of years is irrelavant to the faceless, unaccountable beauracrat that added his name to this list. All that matters to these people (TSA and other federal govt organisations of this ilk) is that they can impose their twisted interpretation and utterly misguided view of the world on others, and that includes anyone unfortunate to visit. America WAKEUP...there is a world out there..it doesnt just exist on Fox....:hmm:

LX-GB1
23rd Sep 2005, 14:42
@ Fearless.

Maybe some would, but I did not say the US is the worst place on earth, but I did suggest that there is an awful lot that is not good. Your Administration is un-doing all the good PR that previously existed. The Brit pilot issue is just another example of what is going on in your country.

The British colonial past is awful, but should not be used to justify the suppression of basic human rights which are supposed to be granted under your Constitution.

How long did your country fail to respect the fact that "all men are created equal". Even today, the divisions in your societey are awfull. Look at the population of New Orleans and how they live - t is like the Third World. Many people from the Third World believe they can have a better life in the US but very few from Europe want to live there, unless it is as a millionaire. We Europeans do not want a drop in our living standards just to become obese on cheap fast food and have no medical coverage or social security.

Just admit that it is wrong to deprive a man,who has been working for years, of the right to continue - and that without producing a justification. The US is the home of the 'conspiracy movie' and not without reason.

As to taking nationality as a proof of something, I have lived and worked in Luxembourg since the early 80's but I still have my UK passport. What woud changing my passport prove? Nada!

Have a super weekend, old chap :o)

G-CPTN
23rd Sep 2005, 14:56
>America WAKEUP...there is a world out there..

********************************

The current edition of the UK satire magazine 'Private Eye' has a photo of GWB viewing a map of 'American Red Cross National Fleet Locations' and asking " . . . and where is America on here?"

Rumfeld announced "Three Brazilian soldiers were killed yesterday."
GWB hold his head in his hands and responds "That's terrible. . . . Just terrible."
After a significant silence, GWB then asks "How many is a brazillion?"

Glad that the US Government has its finger on Rita's pulse.

GlueBall
23rd Sep 2005, 15:02
...self absorbed, arrogant, paranoid, out of control rogue superpower that one day, like the Roman Empire, will implode. :{

Re-Heat
23rd Sep 2005, 15:15
The bloke that is here in the states has been here since 1993, that's 12 years! Only now he is looking at getting his citizenship when he has expressed his love for the country so fervently?
Perhaps FF you might have considered that you cannot apply for citizenship without having lived and worked as a resident of the USA for some considerable period.

European countries do not - and indeed are prevented from - treating foreign workers any differently in the face of the law than citizens. Though workers have no voting rights, and other laws may vary as non-citizens, at least they are allowed a fair hearing. That does not appear to be the case in the US.

barit1
23rd Sep 2005, 15:15
Maybe we should cut loose all the bureaucrats, and give them a few mid-Atlantic coastal states, so they can have their own little centrally-planned nation.

It would be a wise investment for the rest of the country to be rid of them.

Lower the Nose!
23rd Sep 2005, 16:50
Here's one Englishman living in the US who is tired of the same boring old anti-US rhetoric which disfigures these pages too often. Unless you actually know this great country you should be disbarred from making such absurd, sweeping comments (and a three week PPL in Florida doesn't count). I can promise you the view of the US as stupid, ignorant and insular, perpetuated in European media (including the BBC), is no more reliable a guide than some tabloids' views of continental Europe. So can it, will you? The US is a foreign country. They do things differently. Try thinking about why they do things the way they do, rather than assuming it's all further evidence of their wickedness.

big fraidy cat
23rd Sep 2005, 16:58
LOWER THE NOSE .... thank you so much for this post!!!!

El Grifo
23rd Sep 2005, 17:42
The US is a foreign country. They do things differently.

Now there is a truism if ever I saw one !!!!!


:ok: :suspect: :suspect: :ok:

SASless
23rd Sep 2005, 19:18
Viva La Difference! That is what makes the world go around.

BenThere
23rd Sep 2005, 19:41
European countries do not - and indeed are prevented from - treating foreign workers any differently in the face of the law than citizens

Re-Heat,

This may be true, but if so, how come when I lived in France and Italy was I only allowed to work on the contract on which I was employed and my wife was not allowed to work at all?

LX,

Given that Europeans don't want to come here, there seem to be an awful lot of them around where I live and work. I think maybe more will want to move here if unemployment and near-zero growth in some Eurozone countries prove unable to sustain the vaunted Euro-social contract.

Cheers,

haughtney1
23rd Sep 2005, 19:44
Back on the subject..and not going on about US vs everywhere else...thread

Does anyone else think this no-fly list has been applied to this guy in a particularly dumb fashion???????

fogive me for the joined up thinking:hmm:

Bigmouth
23rd Sep 2005, 19:48
No sooner do I call two posts the dumbest I've seen on pprune, when everybody else starts topping them...

Lower the Nose!
23rd Sep 2005, 19:53
Does anyone else think this no-fly list has been applied to this guy in a particularly dumb fashion???????

If the press reporting is to be believed, quite possibly. There needs to be a decent appeals process for cases like this. On the face of it this is a case of mistaken identity, a la Ted Kennedy. But I'm reserving judgment until we know a few more facts.

TheFlyingSquirrel
23rd Sep 2005, 19:57
Please stop this ' Guardian ' style US bashing - NOWHERE is perfect to live in this crazy world, and the Amercians live a good life. Who can blame them for being paranoid ? I like it that they finegrprint everyone who enters their country - Totally advanced as far as I am concerned. I'm fed up with the ungrateful inward bound people to the UK, raping us financially and morally. God bless the USA - Their future looks brighter than ours! Remember if you Dance with the Devil...

TFS

BenThere
23rd Sep 2005, 19:58
Absolutely the man should be entitled to a hearing.

TSA oversteps its bounds a thousand times a dayl. I can't defend them. I hope if the Brit pilot is here in compliance with the law that he is allowed to continue, with compensation for wrongful suspension of his right to work.

Gerhardt
23rd Sep 2005, 20:27
I concur with BenThere.

I have no problem with denying someone the right to fly but the reasons absolutely need to be made available to him and subject to appeal. Otherwise it's just bullying.

chuks
23rd Sep 2005, 20:56
You might want to remember that you only get a presumption of innocence as part of a fair trial. On the other hand, when they find you with a smoking gun in your hand, say, it's just a part of the whole.

Here you have a fellow who is being subjected not to a trial but to an administrative procedure, which is a very different kettle of fish. It is probably a case of someone in the government making a really stupid mistake and then becoming angry to have that pointed out. Anyone who has had to deal with government functionaries can identify with this poor soul. Well, with any luck, given that his case is now high-profile, perhaps he can get a fair hearing before a judge who can decide what is really going on.

Perhaps this makes me some sort of bigamist, but I am reasonably fond of both my native country, the USA and my adopted homeland, Germany. I have made zero moves towards getting German citizenship, come to that. But if some twerp were to suggest that this means I am only in Germany 'for the money' my jaw would drop at the colossal stupidity of that notion!
What, after a certain number of years one incurs some obligation to take citizenship? And this is because...?

If someone is in the USA legally to work, leave the poor b*gger alone, unless you want us to look like some tinpot banana republic. Unless they have some reasonable evidence that this guy wears exploding shoes perhaps they should just let him go about his business and go back to chasing the real villains, of whom there are plenty running around loose.

Send Clowns
23rd Sep 2005, 21:14
Some really confidantly posted mistakes made on both sides here!

For example Fearless it is a lot harder for a Brit to get a long-term flying job stateside than it is for a US citizen to get one here. Not everyone who loves a country wants to become a citizen. There is no reason he should love it any less by not doing so, he might have other reasons, or he might have been refused for some reason.

LX-GB the British colonial past is only awful looked at through the filter of modern political correct absolutism. A lot of misleading tales are told about what happened, and a lot of the good is forgotten. The alternatives available at the time are conveniently never considered. Comparing New Orleans to the third world is just the sort of left-wing rhetoric that does a lot of damage to people's knowledge oif the third world.

G_CPTN the media obsession with making out Bush is a lot dimmer than he is (according to them that actually know him) using lies and charicature would have been damned by the left here if the same campaign had been launched against anyone else. Cartoons have no bearing on this case!

Bart you describe two posts far more well-considered and reasoned than your own (although I happen not to agree with them) as redneck. You are the one left looking like a hick.

Niknak his real intentions seem to be to make a career in the US and marry his American girl. I teach many people over the age of 35 for their exams to become commercial pilots. I personally want to be in light aviation (looks like air taxi) for a few years, then move into jets. I am 32. Plenty of people might be in this man's situation. There is, on the surface, nothing to suggest otherwise or to connect him with islamist terrorism. The threat is islamic, and it's bad enough the US stopping one of the kindest, most westernised muslims I know, with one of the best senses of fun, from flying; but an Irishman?

Many more cases jump out, but there is no point listing them all. Can't you guys grow up and post realistic, reasoned comments rather than jump quickly in to post prejudices?

Grandpa
23rd Sep 2005, 22:57
There is a lot of them.

Yesterday night I looked at French TV, and it was Bernard Pivot interviewing foreign people who have got a link with France.
Three of them were interviewed.

Miss Otokore, a Muslim sportwoman from Somalia who has got French citizenship, is now elected in Burgundy regional council and working in associations fighting against women traditional mutilation in Africa.

Then Costa Gavras, Greek filmmaker with a world reputation, who made all his carrer in France and is now a French citizen.

Last but not least was Robert Paxton, American citizen who lives here since years and has settled in a country farm.
He wrote a lot about France hidden faults ( mostly about Vichy regime) and this was against the policy of oblivion that most of our leaders were enforcing.

Sometimes, it's not only a good action to welcome foreigners : its an honour.

broottmeenoo
24th Sep 2005, 00:11
Fearless Frep and Niknak, your posts show your ignorance on the issue as why "he has not bothered to become a citizen".
I arrived in the states in 92 and never stopped working, paying tax, and being here legally. Started to work as a CFI in 93, commercial pilot in 96, BE55, C402, BE99, Lear24, Lockeed Jetstar, got married to a US citizen, 2kids....
Applied for my citizenship in 2001, and then you know what happen that september....
INS have my files, all the paperwork have been approved and ready, but still nothing...
I lost 1 pilot job since it was easier for the company to keep an American pilot who does not have to go through TSA .
So next time you rant about those foreigners just here for the money, just look around, there must be some working along with you in the cockpit or the cabin.

kabz
24th Sep 2005, 02:42
I flew into Nantuket on CapeAir once. We finally squeaked in in lousy conditions near minimums.

They should have shown those TSA guys what this guy did for a living. They'd have no doubt about his dedication and bravery.

CAT1
24th Sep 2005, 06:21
Americans....everyone either loves them or hates them. There's no middle ground.

Ignition Override
24th Sep 2005, 06:29
Despite our faults, my remarks on a previous page were not meant to put down our overall US system of government or society. But our many bureaucracies have multiplied and often don't have any real chain of command-incredible waste and neglect can be the result.

We can't rest on our laurels: the good characteristics and democracy speak for themselves, but leadership must begin at home, and be improved.

ekw
25th Sep 2005, 08:23
There is a tremendous gulf in values between Middle America and Europe - that is what is showing up in GWB's foreign policy.

I blame the Pilgrim Fathers. They thought they were escaping to the Land of the Free, but in fact they created it behind them.

*Middle America - exludes maybe New Hamshire and the Islands in Puget Sound.

delta-golf
25th Sep 2005, 08:57
It seemed to begin with Fearless (C)reep, and then degenerate from there in to a real "Jet Blast" rant......

At the end of the day, everytime you close off one target, the terrorists will find another. No aeroplanes ?, trains will do, or maybe underground trains, or how about buses or theatres or schools or supermarkets, ball parks etc etc

Lets ban everyone from everything, mitigate risk by bringing free society to a halt then none of the above could happen........but in that case it would not need to....the terrorists aim, destruction of trust and normal life would be complete, we would be just a repressive and dictatorial as they are at home. Check-Mate :\

Defeat of the enemy in the "war on terror", means defeat of all small minded, un-trusting, nationalistic, controlling, paranoic idiots, whatever flag they fly, badge they wear, or TV channel they choose to transmit their propaganda.

The only foolproof way to stop a terrorist attack where they can choose any target from a cast of billions, and any time they like to deliver the news, is stopping the plan or idea at birth...

This is impossible to achieve without trust and teamwork across national and cultural boundaries. Views expressed by some in these posts, and unfortunately even more stridently by the GWB government in some of their poorly thought-through and even more poorly executed policies, are the antithesis of what needs to be done to defeat extremists.

Policies need to be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE , because if you have to do it all yourself, it a. costs too much b. never gets finished and c. [email protected] off all of the neighbours. :*

whattimedoweland
25th Sep 2005, 22:46
We all have to queue up at 7am in the morning outside the good ol US of A Embassy.On gaining entry we are quized as air crew as to what are our intentions and reasons for travel!! :confused: .

When we have finally proved ourselves we then fly to LAX or SFO and after a 12 hour duty day spend another 30 minutes waiting!!.

Finger print,retina and the odd soul has to go to 'secondary' questioning unit.

Maybe if US Air Crew had to queue outside other Embassies and had to wait to get through immigration like the rest of us then you may get pis*ed off to !!.

A question I have wanted to ask for age's is why do US Immigration officers carry guns.Are they expecting everyone who has been through multiple security checks worldwide to come in with guns a blazing?.Or is it just because they can.When was the last time one of them had to draw their gun in anger?.What must it cost to give them all guns?.

The USA 'Land of the free'!!?:confused: ,certainly not easy.

WTDWL.

ORAC
26th Sep 2005, 06:55
Almost as bad as the UK (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1797955,00.html) :hmm:

Bahadir
26th Sep 2005, 12:51
For all the rednecks out there who say "if you have been here for 12 years, you have to be a citizen, or get the f*** out" don't know jack sh!t about immigration laws.

you can be here for 15 years and just qualify for citizenship.. The news report didn't say that he was a permanent resident for 12 year, it read he had been here 12 years..

Once again, you can be here LEGALLY for 12 years and not be able to qualify for citizenship..

Now go and bang your own sister..

skyyblue
9th Oct 2005, 21:18
this is for WTDWL


"A question I have wanted to ask for age's is why do US Immigration officers carry guns.Are they expecting everyone who has been through multiple security checks worldwide to come in with guns a blazing?.Or is it just because they can.When was the last time one of them had to draw their gun in anger?.What must it cost to give them all guns?."

the INS (home land security) agents carry guns because they not only do immigrations, they also cover customs. i have been in the us customs hall when they had to pull their weapon. A pax tried to enter the country with a case full of drugs not realizing the Beagle bergade was out checking bags and tried to make a run for it.
Also there have been times when InAds (deportees) have tried to do a runner when being transported back to the aircraft.

Grandpa
9th Oct 2005, 21:23
They need guns to fire at people running away?

Thought it was not written in the book........

WhatsaLizad?
9th Oct 2005, 23:23
They need guns to fire at people running away?

Thought it was not written in the book........

Grandpa



Hard to believe isn't it Gramps?

Fact is that a bunch of German college kids yelling "Achtung!" in a Panzer would cause you and most of your countrymen to swim west to Bermuda.

Airport/INS personel with guns? My first introduction with various security people carrying the largest and most rapid firing weapons possible came from my first visits to Europe in the 1980's.

Grandpa
10th Oct 2005, 23:03
..................but hox can you reply if you ignore the question?

Trying to be more precise for Skyyblue:

Is it mandatory in this Administration to "fire at people running away"?

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2005, 00:01
>Is it mandatory in this Administration to "fire at people running away"?

**********************************
Only if they're Brazilian . . .

4SPOOLED
11th Oct 2005, 02:55
America is a reactive society....they are not proactive, and when meeting them for the first time...(im an Aussie) they asked where i was from, i told them Perth Australia, and they asked me which state that was in....

That pretty much sums it up.

I think The founding fathers would roll in their grave if they discovered what the country had become....time to mind your own business and look after your own and stop worrying about what everybody else is doing...

Now Australia, we are the lucky country:ok:

West Coast
11th Oct 2005, 05:49
"i told them Perth Australia, and they asked me which state that was in...."

Yeah, sure. Soon this will be up there with the US carrier vs lighthouse tall tail. Hear it once, its believable. Hear it everytime and the meter goes off the scope.


Perhaps this pilot just sucked really bad.

slim_slag
11th Oct 2005, 09:53
Sorry west coast, that sort of thing happens all the time if you have a funny accent, now I just tell Americans I live in London as they have heard of that place and no stupid follow ups.

I once told a Californian chick I lived in Colorado, she asked me what state that was in, honest truth.

ORAC
11th Oct 2005, 10:05
that sort of thing happens all the time if you have a funny accent

I recall being told in San Antonio that, "You sure do speak good English for a foreigner". :uhoh:

BenThere
11th Oct 2005, 14:09
i told them Perth Australia, and they asked me which state that was in....

And you didn't answer: Western Australia? I could have told her that, and you don't have nearly as many states to know.

Good point, though. We seem to want to keep half our people ignorant. I guess that's so they'll be happy with their careers in customer service, McDonalds, or the complaint department.

Maple 01
11th Oct 2005, 16:35
.....and I remember AFN doing a weather forcast for the State of Canada - No West Coast, not an urban myth!

West Coast
11th Oct 2005, 16:49
Sounds like a story.

Canada is the 51st state, just a bunch of pissed off Yanks.
Just don't want to screw up the flag with the extra star.

Maple 01
11th Oct 2005, 17:23
Don't make me come and burn your Whitehouse again West Coast......

chuks
11th Oct 2005, 19:31
And that cheesy bell you sold us cracked, practically the first time it was rung.

West Coast
11th Oct 2005, 22:55
"Don't make me come and burn your Whitehouse again West Coast......"

Its in need of a new coat of paint, have at it.

Maple 01
12th Oct 2005, 22:10
Right, I'll just go and get me rockets.......


Say, can you see……?