jobs here...

[A320rider]

why to bother to become a pilot when I see that!


"Use free first officers for your transport aircraft. Reduce your operating expenses! We provide F/O's typed in the A/C of your choice. They will fly for your company NO SALARY or any other COMPENSATION, plus we pay a fee for your company.


:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

I am selling airline adress, do not waste time to be online , send directly hundred of CV to employers. email [email protected], so i can eat some hot noodles today!:p

[Gufo]

That must be a joke, really... :yuk:

[A320rider]

no it is not a joke!!!
but you have to know the truth !

[boogie-nicey]

This whole 'eaglejet' issue is getting silly. People regardless of whether they are pilots or not have the right to make their own informed decisions. What I find disconcerting is the constant slagging off anyone who's just asking for advice on a topic or simply "dipping their toe to test the water". Those who looking at eagle jet as a quick fix in a blind panic are the ones who should take a moment of pause afterall there's no immediate rush. However those who seem to have it their life long mission to rubbish anyone who's asking for some advice shouldn't be subjected to such negative commentary.

I'm no eaglejet staff member or ex-customer but it's wrong to rubbish them straight of the bat especially when most have no experience of them. Then again at least it shows some low hour pilots trying to think for themselves and maximise their potential and career chances.

In short if you don't like it stay away but at least try and add some constructive views on any topics asked by those further down on the aviation ladder.

Okay keep smiling and chin-up :=

[mightymouse111]

I think its about time that MP's investigated the airline recruitment industry. I am not saying that anything illegal is going on, rather that there is a hugh exploitation of taking advantage of people who are in a desperate situation. There is no other industry that this would be allowed to go on, so why should we tolerate this. Its all about £££$$$ and its all about extractation of it. The shame is we are not talking about a few quid, we are talking about £50,000 upwards. I am aware of someone who has borrowed over £100,000 from various sources for their training and is still unemployed. Now that situation should not be allowed to develop. There are many problems with flight training and recruitment, its about time that these issues were addressed by an independent body otherwise in 10 years time EVERY pilot will be paying the airline to fly!

[Troy McClure]

I'm sure A320rider is trying to reduce competition for himself by demoralising others. Check his other posts.

I know loads of people now who are in hold pools or otherwise getting their first break. I'm in the pool myself for BACX that even pays you a salary while you're doing your type rating.

It's not all doom and gloom....

[Stpaul]

Its not all doom & gloom, but it is for the majority!
I too know many in hold pools but I know a hell of a lot more (for whatever reason!) who are not and have tried tried tried to seek employment.
I sympathise with A320, his post is not too bring others down but he is probably at the bottom now, not knowing what to do next, he might seek comfort knowing he is not the only one who has burst a gut to raise money to pay for his training, given up a lot and burst a gut trying to find employment.

The long term answers are not for those to get a TR or pay for hours but to address the issues involved in pilot training and this probably starts with the airlines having a recruitment structure in place that is flexible and invests in the future rather than for now! (it can be done regardless of this being 'aviation'!)

[boogie-nicey]

I hear and indeed symphathise with all that I hear from my fellow pilots. There are indeed many injustices embedded within this industry which are like weeds in a lawn and extremely difficult to extract.

The aviation sphere is an 'establishment' industry that does not see itself as subject to anyone's scrutiny, whether that be consumers or government bodies. The whole civil aviation issue seems to reflect an air force culture that has been transposed into the civil sector and as such favours (though not totally) certain streams of society. I guess this is also evident in other economic sectors such as banking, school ties, family background, well maybe.

The problem is as I see it in 2 halves the first being the feeding of people's dreams of wanting to become a pilot which rapidly turns into a delusion. There would be little obstacle for a BA captain's "Little Tommy" to at the very least be introduced into the airline without delay though the 'other' chap would have to fend for himself with varying results of success. The second is the post training element that is springing up all over the place trying to put a comforting arm around the ever more desperate low hours guy that just 'needs a break' onto the first step of the ladder. In other words we'll be your friends for a couple of thousands :ugh:

Maybe we need to rethink our whole approach to training and ask ourselves where primary training ends after the frozen ATPL or after the first 500hr instructing? Maybe it's after the first type rating? In the end only we can determine the answer to that for ourselves.

Eaglejet line training or not, both yes and no, if you have already factored it into your trainign plan then it's the next step if not then I guess it's not for you. What we can't forget is the simple saying "nothing ventured nothing gained" though again we need to be careful that we apply that to our personal circumstances and not just a free for all attitude to go for it blindly.

Good luck everybody


:confused: :bored:

[scroggs]

You will never get political support for your cause. No politician will stick their necks out for private individuals who spend £50,000 of their own money obtaining legitimate services in full knowledge of the risks involved. You might just as well ask them to support people who spend their life savings buying a flash car. Forget it!

Caveat Emptor is the only protection you have.

Scroggs

[RVR800]

One thing that seems interesting is how on the one hand there are airlines bleating on about how difficult it is to get quality applicants and yet on the other hand there are airlines just requiring a wedge of cash.

This whole industry is fixated on bringing down costs - where will it end?

[boogie-nicey]

Scroggs you have as always got it correct with a level headed view. The politicians will not help and in many respects nor should they. People whether they are aspiring pilots, entrepeneurs or anyone else in society should realise that they are quite simply responsible for their own actions. After all they wouldn't want anyone from government or authority interefering when things are going well.

It appears that 'perception' is driving the aspirations of many wannabes to an almost unrealistic level. The pop-star/celeb culture of anyone, anywhere making it on a tv show seems to make alot of these 'kids' think they can trott the same path as someone else and end up in chair opposite a senior pilot in an interview room. Indeed some can get that opportunity but that's more to do with a lucky break because there are many adequate pilots out there but the majority can't get a job. This is where wannabes start shouting "the industry has to change", "I remember when we didn't have to pay for a type rating" simply because people's expectations aren't met. If the governement doesn't care about young couples who loose money due to the antics of estate agents (which is far more widespread and relevant to the public as a whole) then why would they expect intervention from the authorities in highly expensive and complex arena of aviation.

Government investigation and subsequent intervention is like calling a semi-literate bricklayer to design and construct a new bridge across the Thames river, quite simply they're not qualified to do so. The government has no perception or understanding of the aviation industry or much else for that matter. But even if they did what would you propose they do (in practical terms)? If we all took a moment of pause and thought carefully using our grey matter about the practical implications of what we are about to do then we'd be in a much better position. I am still taken aback by how <b>some</b> wannabes are still missing a huge issue ...... the value of money! They are blinded by the end goal that they are sleep walking into crippling debt which no doubt has significant effects on their family, life in general and their future. Most are not researching anything as much as they need to and attend just a few presentations and hear what they want to and then go off to OATS. Along the way they spend far more than they can afford both today and in the future. If they really want to fly then why not think about the possibility of relatively easier work approvals for going to Canada and put the effort into transferring your exams and finding some work flying float planes. I'm sure that many <b>fake</b> wannabes would have begun to think erhhh, I don't to fly floatplanes, my point precisely it's all vanity and comfort driven, you really woin't get anyway fast with that attitude. Thought about what's required for a year long stint in Africa working for very little .... of course not, only the committed will entertain such thoughts.

So let's see what we have so far
1. minimal 'hands dirty' attitude
2. I have suffered, now give me a job
3. Otherwise I'm going to get the politicians and my gang onto you :)
4. Flying must fit into my perception of what it should be and not vice versa.
5. I am prepared to undergo much upheavel to be where my woirk requires me to be, as long as it's hour's drive from the airport preferably based in the UK.


Touching on the last point why do people miss this important point that aviation is not a local corner shop style industry, it's truely international the only common factor is the sky! Having said that how many wannabes have bothered to learn another language to get yourself ahead of all the other candidates, is this blindness, arrogance or self appointed high status. Whilst sitting around why not sign up for a Masters course for anything aviation related (just a thought) afterall you're unemloyed and have tikme to moan so use it constructively and do a short course somewhere that could hopefully help in the long term when you are more manager and less line pilot.

Anyway sorry for dragging on so much I just wanted to make a brief point :D Remember to engage brain to make decisions and passion to drive that decision forward to conclusion.

Chin up and keep smiling

[Dirty Harry 76]

A320rider - Ive read your posts on other threads and your attitude is so negative you are an accident waiting to happen. I wouldnt want to see you near any Airport or Aircraft. The cleaners who empty the trash in the WC's on the aircraft i fly have a better attitude than you. Get a life, get some theoropy or join the local train spotters club. Buddy for some reason you seem to think the world is against you and every airline owes you a living!

I dont have rich parents but had the forsight to get a decent education, went to Uni, graduated at the top of my class with an Engineering degree. At this time none of the Airlines where recruiting or sponsering flight training. I was never comfortable with borrowing the large sums of money required to go the self sponsered route so I was in my early 30's when I eventually quit my job and started (modular) flight training full time. I saved my money over 12yrs, I never borrowed a cent for flight training and still own a house. I had a proper plan, got to know people in the industry who were my mentors, did my research into the job market and 6 months after gaining my FATPL got a job in the RHS of a jet with 320hrs TT (100hrs twin).

I started with zero cash, I got a decent education, I had a proper plan which I executed, I MADE MY OWN LUCK and had a POSITIVE ATTITUDE.

For everyone in the UK there is much to be positive about. All the people I did my IR with in Oct 04 have jobs and are now in various stages of moving into the RHS. Ignore this parasite.

A320rider, get lost and quit whining about the same old Bull!

[boogie-nicey]

The problem seems to be more than just flight training and hours. It also appears that alot of the 'getting nowhere pilots' are from the continent where the socialist model is stiffling corporate growth. This consequently stops those pilots based there from getting jobs whereas in the relatively pro-business environment of the UK it's a different matter. Maybe a320rider would like to consider moving elsewhere where the jobs are?

He and his European Commissioners are typifying themselves and crying when they don't get invited to the party. Instead a320rider proposes from another thread to have information sent to one of these commissioners so that they can stop any practice where a320rider isn't ahead of all others. It appears we can't have competion or winners and losers, that is after all life, war and business.

Aviation is a BUSINESS and please don't foget that, in fact it's BIG BUSINESS we aren't talking about anything small here and so there shouldn't always be romantic memories of the good old days of aviation. In those days type ratings, image and super salaries had the flipside that if you weren't selected by the airline for training then you couldn't be a pilot anyway or near impossible. Students need to plan and address the issues ahead of them before moaning like a baby without it's rattle. Paying for experience is NO easy option this is serious money that requires significant attention and determination so anyone who goes down that route is not 'pushing in' they are actually giving up jobs, time, resources and other opportunities in life even more than everyone else. If they are from a rich family then so what, that's life there will always be someone who's richer or just luckier than you in life, get over it.

I once got hounded by a director to be a film star in India but turned it down repeatedly much to his surprise. There are many who train for that kind of thing and sacrifice alot to get there whereas I was just spotted by him when I shared a journey from Delhi to Mumbai with him on an Air India flight. How would that have looked on all those struggling and desperate actors/actresses as I just waltzed into their industry at the top? From the directors point of view I was exactly what he wanted and that was his only objective, doesn't business think along the same lines. I once knew a guy who was a group director in a large multi national but when he got made redundant no one wanted to know even though he had massive experience at the top levels of the corporate world, he didn't cry in fact he said if I can't use my past experience to get somewhere then I really didn't learn anything.... he setup a successful company called Centi (www.centi.co.uk). We all have to try but we also have the choice of playing it safe and getting a simple desk job along with a respectable lifestyle but what fun or challenge would that be. We are all grown adults and when things don't go our way we need to take it on the chin. Where would the air force be if it started moaning that one squadron gets all the dangerous duties whilst other reserve squadrons have a safer time, should they quit , moan or claim it's unfair, stop the war perhaps? These reasons are precisely what should make pilots disciplined and distinctive from the rest of society and other professions.

Why should there be a set route to getting a job the whole point of any industry is that it's evolutionary and NOT static in it's mindset. We need to show that it's not our actions that are necessarily right or wrong but our personal arguments that justify them. If a 22 year old went on and got a Type Rating and/or bought experience then one would wonder why they hadn't explored other possible avenues. Similarly if a 35 year old did the same thing there might be some merit in his/her actions due to age and the availability of funds at that stage of life.

During our training we seem to have lost sight of the larger and strategic picture, that is of the ever changing corporate climate, airline expectations, regulatory issues, etc. Why should everyone blindly follow the JAA system which does no favours isn't there any other system? No one has to work in Europe exclusivelly. This kind of attitude is similar to 'Middle America' behaviour where we only seem to care about our region and are blind to anything beyond that.

Wake up and get on with it. After many years of struggling to get into the JAA system with it's constantly moving goal posts and ill defined logic I gave up and began building on my FAA licences instead, once you get to nearer to the ATP level more options are available to you.

a320rider you need to do 14 exams ranging from humour through common sense to tolerance.

On a final note I think of all the self funded pilots as part of a greater brotherhood I understand where you're coming from and feel the pain too, you're not alone buddies.


:D

[Re-Heat]

I am aware of someone who has borrowed over £100,000 from various sources for their training and is still unemployed. Now that situation should not be allowed to develop.
Perhaps a cursory warning for anyone thinking of joining the airline job market - get yourself selected and give yourself the best shot by using integrated or highly-structured and respected modular schools. To know that you can do it having passed some sort of selection be it GAPAN or whatever will prevent these ludicrous situations where people have spent a fortune acquiring licences, yet are clearly incapable of operating as professional pilots.

If there were collusion of employers in the marketplace I may care to agree that something should be done - there is no evidence of such and people willingly enter into such financial situations to train. To the extent that training programmes are legal and people are aware of what they enter into, then nothing should be done to distort that marketplace.

A320rider - perhaps you could look at your outbursts on these forums as a reason why you remain unemployed?