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View Full Version : Things you should know BEFORE joining Emirates (EK)


Brix
19th Sep 2005, 19:47
The following information is based on my personal experience. Although much has been written on the subject I was unable to clarify this before I joined. I wish I'd known earlier.

Emirates is an english managed company. What does this mean?

1 Strict, conservative and authoritarian leadership style using bullyboy tactics to intimidate and humiliate people. They aim to control you totally and it will affect your private life. You have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on your off days. If you live in an apartment the door security is advised to check the time your visitors come and go. They will frequently check your apartment without notice by pretending an 'Air Conditioning or Fire Extinguisher check'.

2 Steep hierarchy with a noticeable number of management postholders. In key positions you will find mainly Brits or Australians.

3 Checking, reporting and grading policy leading to a fear culture among the flightcrews. The FOQA program which is intended to increase safety is misused for performance monitoring. Every flight is QAR taped. If predetermined limits are exceeded, i.e. you fly through gusty winds in a rainshower on final approach there will be a follow-up. Generally the captains authority is overemphasized in such a way that any form of CRM is practically nonexistent.

If you're new on type you do a ground course. You will encounter lots of intermediate tests to keep the pressure up. Later in the simulator every event will be graded with a system 'developed by the Emirates Training Department', which means grades from 1 to 5 will be applied. In my point of view this means nothing else than misusing the training system as a checking system. If the time for a recurrent sim event has come this practice continues. One can imagine that the achieved grades are very important for future developments i.e. for upgrades or converting to the A340 if you're on the Airbus. This empowers the trainers enormously and it means if you have a bad day with the wrong person your career will be delayed or destroyed.

4 After you've joined you have to deal with a lot of admin work and bureaucracy, which is normal. However what is not normal is the total absence of any common sense, tolerance or flexibility in the Indian- dominated mid admin levels of EK. A good example for that is when you arrive in Dubai on joining day you don't get prior information as to your whereabouts. They all like to use the element of surprise! You can be lucky but as already mentioned in a different post if you're eligible for an apartment you may have to live in very low quality housing. No flexibility: swapping or changing not allowed.

5 As a First Officer your life will be even more difficult. Although most of the line captains are fine you will sometimes be treated as an underaged subordinate who has to keep his mouth shut and say 'Oh I see'. What has really p..ssd me off all those years is the pedantic way of work those people have and this always creates a tense atmosphere on the flight deck which in turn leads to more mistakes. If you're Pilot Flying and you do anything the other person wouldn't do the same way there is immediate interference or at least there's some comment to follow: 'We are doing it this way!' Certain people didn't let me do an approach the way I thought. They always had to interfere by determining the time the airplane should be configured etc.! I even had a few occasions where the guy thought he must help me doing my flare! Yes, I only have 10000+ hours with half of them in command so I need to be treated as a schoolboy! And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with increasing flight safety! If you complain to the wrong person about anything, whether you're right or wrong, they will immediately come up with the universal argument: you have the wrong attitude! Afterwards the threat of employment termination will be issued very quickly.

6 Side effects from the totalitarian UAE regime: generally low standards – high prices. Access to decent beaches only for payment. Traffic very stressful - poor planning. Censored internet access. And again lots of bureaucracy without any flexibility.

7 Positive points: well equipped airplanes. People and atmosphere on normal line flights are generally ok.

Conclusion: I haven't experienced a more disgusting working environment in my many flying years. I found two commonalities with other english managed companies:
- The general arrogant attitude: 'We've always done it this way and we continue to do so!'
- The definitive inability to organize.

A little less command-and-conquer/stiff-upper-lip attitude could improve their reputation.

I am very glad I left and I that can't recognize any of the above mentioned points in my current employment.

Stopped discovering.

stump grinder
19th Sep 2005, 20:11
Well Brix, you sound like a bundle of laughs. Please tell us where you work now, that's one company I'll be avoiding.

Min Drag
19th Sep 2005, 20:51
"Please tell us where you work now, that's one company I'll be avoiding."

Why's that Stumpy? Maybe Mr Brix has some valid points that ought to be considered by prospective EK employees.

Maybe it's sour grapes but either way it's good to hear about potential pitfalls.

MD:ok:

Brix
19th Sep 2005, 21:23
For the avoidance of doubt this thread is not meant to condemn the english people or their lifestyle as a whole. The above report is a summary of the time I had to suffer and it is focused on this company only. I hope it helps in making decisions.

fullforward
20th Sep 2005, 00:57
Congratulations for taking your time on writing honestly about your feelings!
Some attitudes and behaviors you described could fit as a glove to some airlines we worked before...who haven't experienced more than one issues you mentioned?

Be prepared, though, for some harsh reactions like the one above...some people are simply not prepared for the truth.

Cerberus
20th Sep 2005, 05:59
Fullforwrd,

On the other thread you said:

Grew up boys! No matter what you, me or them think about it, EK, QR, EY,GF, SIA,KA, CAL, you name it, will do whatever they want about DECs and T&Cs. So this endless crying and moaning is just BORING and useless.

Now you are congratulating a mate that has allegedly left on expressing his feelings. So which is it? Are you only allowed to express your feelings if you have left or if you have had an issue with the training department or if they are the same as yours? I am not going to criticise anyone for their opinion but I would like to know where you stand on the issue.

Cerberus

porkandbrew
20th Sep 2005, 07:47
I tend to agree with most of what Brix is writing. I'd also like to add that there are different standards (in training and checking) expected from different nationalities, and that cross cultural understanding is a one way street in Emirates.
I have been a captain for between 5-10 years, and I am on the A340, so it's not like I am bitter and twisted.

We have just been informed by our highly respected (yeah right..) management that we are naughty to ground staff, cabin crew etcetera. I wonder if the 95 plus hours per month for the last 12 months could have anything to do with our lack of patience, or maybe the fact that some of the support we get from ground staff nowdays is so extremely poor...
I can tell within 3 seconds of shaking hands with the red cap whether we will leave on time or not, and on that note I would think EK's on-time performance must be amongst the worst in the industry.



That was my little whinge.

EK is not good anymore.
/Pork

Gufo
20th Sep 2005, 08:30
english managed companies:
- The definitive inability to organize.

Well, things are waaayy so relative... :}

Avius
20th Sep 2005, 13:03
As a non-brit working for a british company (british managed) , I can not see much of a difference to other companies, I have worked for.

In our company, the in-famous stiffness is not present (at least not any extent, which would bother me). We do have a 1-5 grading system as well, but I haven't met a crew-member yet, who felt intimidated. It is merely used to identify weaknesses (which we all have in one way or another) and give the individual an idea in which area he/she should try to improve.

Having that said, most of the Trainers in our company are highly experienced training captains, who have seen a lot in their long careers and are quite relaxed about mistakes (because they too, make them sometimes).

I guess the real problem starts, when people with little experience but big ambitions get into training positions and other management posts.

That very well might be the case in EK. Eitherway, I was offered a job with them 8 years ago and did not take it (Family reasons)

Maybe if was a good thing after all.

Cheers

Bart O'Lynn
20th Sep 2005, 13:58
Mods please dont move this to middle east because if we (non sandpit) express an opinion we are told to butt out of THEIR threads. At least on T+E its in the open forum domains not region specific.

It seems the worm has turned at EK. Got a licence? come from a developing country? Then you are ideal materiel these days.

Well as for the brit management. Goes without saying. Dont forget to check your altimeters every 10000 feet in your compujet. It was good in Dan Air so its got to be good in dubai.

Doug the Head
20th Sep 2005, 15:21
Well as for the brit management. Goes without saying. Dont forget to check your altimeters every 10000 feet in your compujet. It was good in Dan Air so its got to be good in dubai. Hahahahaha! I´m glad I´m not the only one thinking that! ;)

The Real Slim Shady
20th Sep 2005, 16:03
Well as for the brit management. Goes without saying. Dont forget to check your altimeters every 10000 feet in your compujet. It was good in Dan Air so its got to be good in dubai.

I must be missing something here.

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but could you explain the relevance, or not, of regular altimeter checks in a compujet as opposed to non compujet?

The Warning Computer on my compujet jet wont stop you descending into a mountain if you lower the MCP alt to below MSA and insist on descending. So long as the parameters all match up it doesn't complain.

bubbles1
20th Sep 2005, 16:34
must say boy's....

Had many a page 3 moment in an EK flight deck!!! How British is that.....no FO ever reported me.....thank goodness

Keep up the stiff upper lip!!! there are fun times at EK

chicken_or_fish
20th Sep 2005, 16:57
pork and brew

Totally agree with the poor quality of ground staff in Dubai.
Unfortunately its a case of pay peanuts..............

Formally Known As
20th Sep 2005, 17:55
Brix

Yes I can sympathise with you.

porkandbrew, has pointed out "....I can tell within 3 seconds of shaking hands with the red cap..."

Brits and Australians in management?? Hmm. I can tell you, without shaking your hand, that you most probably have the wrong handshake. Good decision to leave on your part.

fullforward
20th Sep 2005, 18:02
Dear mate,

Please re-read my other post: it would turn very clear what is my point.
Furthermore, as this is an essentially democratic tool, everyone has the right to express whatever wants to, of course within certain limits established by the moderators.
I complimented Brix because he actually did the only thing that makes sense on his situation: try something better. He had the nerve to do it!
I'm as against as you to unfair and unclear policies in course on so many airlines. This will only have an end if either we could organize as a professional category (utopic for now) or by market forces alone, wich means moving to better outfits. Sooner or later the managers will realize why they are losing so many valuable professionals.

Just my 2 cents!

Bart O'Lynn
20th Sep 2005, 23:35
Slim
Actually more pertinent a waste of time climbing. Bit like bug cards in an ng. pointless, but all floating around somewhere (ryr for one, easy another. mcbride thread refers)) courtesy of some dinosaur that doesnt trust this new fangled palaver and got into a young company early doors . EG. If as an experienced skipper you cant do a gross error check in your head for any given takeoff weight and get within a knot or two of the speeds then you shouldnt be there.
Also You dont need an accuracy check of altis, if there are comparitors, every 10000feet. You may have done in a 70s tech bit of kit ,but not now.. The cfit you refer to is covered in setting the qnh sop or general situational awareness and so forth, not pointless babble from a bygone era. 10 checks are on of the few traditions that are timeless , the rest ..rote nonesense pitched as groundbreaking knowledge.

assuming a very low european winter qnh.If you checked your atli at 30.20 and 10 qfe. it still wont stop you flying into a hill, if the hill is at 2000 qnh and you are a knob.

These senior expat management are usualy peddling antiquated philosophies as their innovative ideas to gullable foreign masters and eager ,willing to eat sh1t ,widebody command hunters. (flak jacket on)

And thats about all i have to say. On behalf of Riojas finest . Good night

crazypilot
21st Sep 2005, 05:53
To be totally honest, of the companies that I have worked for, I have never seen middle/senior management as unprofessional, rude and too-full-of-themselves-that-their-heads-don't-fit-through-doors types as I have seen in Emirates.

I'm out here working in DXB at the moment and can fully understand every point that Brix has made. It's the honest to God truth. The whole place [Dubai] is real-life Disneyland and full of western expats who think they are now entitled to look down on other societies since they are living a better life now than back home. Not everyone is like that, but a good %age.

There are so many classes [in terms of income, quality of life, social status etc] here in Dubai, it's really sickening and people who turn around and say 'if you don't like it then leave' really need to open their eyes a bit more.

And back to EK, time to command isn't hi-speed as it has in the ads. I think Etihad is quicker.

If you're thinking of coming to EK/DXB, think long and hard. It's nice for a holiday as you don't see all the bureaucracy, modern-day slave labour and incompetencies present in Dubai, but as for living/working out here, see it as a short-term thing just to get the experience/hours/EK name under your belt and enjoy the sun, shops, beaches, nightlife etc.

Quod Boy
21st Sep 2005, 08:53
Accurate take Brix.

I came here 12 yrs ago thinking I would be here until retirement.

First8-9 years excellent.

Your points are spot on,EK is no longer a long term option if your coming from a first world environment.

IMHO of course.Good luck to you and for all prospective EK wanabees,read and research carefully.

Who will the Emperor he has no clothes??

QB