Small Operator requirements ?

[Notoc]

Armed with my CPL/IR Frozen ATPL MCC and 380 hours

I need to find the minimum requirements for smaller operators to give my career a push...

Having called Centreline Air Charter at Bristol Airport I learn that their minimum requirements are as follows:-

Total Hours:- 400 hours

Pilot in Command:- 300 hours which MUST include 40 multi under IFR

They are currently looking at CV’s meeting the minimum requirements- which is good news!

I am short at present but have been asked to e-mail again when I have the required amount of experience

Can anyone tell me:

a) Whether this is standard for all operators (I think that it is, possibly a JAA requirement?

b) Where I can get 20hrs on the cheap... otherwise I will just have to go and fly in circles for a few days over Oxfordshire again.

All help gratefully received!

[Cliffhangar]

Notoc

I think that these requirements are pretty standard for IFR air-taxi work. You may find exceptions for things like aerial photography, traffic spotting and para-dropping. However, these jobs are pretty hard to come by, and often don't pay enough to live on.

Best idea is to bite the bullet, pay for some hours and get on with it!

Best of Luck
Cliffhangar.

[buzzc152]

I think you'll find that 700 hours are needed for single crew IFR........ which is how most of the small guys like Centreline operate.

[Phil Brockwell]

400hrs TT for IFR single crew here, BUT, tricky to get through a base check with such a small number of hours.

Notoc is quite right when he says :-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total Hours:- 400 hours

Pilot in Command:- 300 hours which MUST include 40 multi under IFR
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil

[wannabe1000]

My understanding was min 700hrs TT with 100 IFR.

The company I work for have this as a minimum requirement in line with regulations for single pilot IFR commercial operations ie pax or freight revenue flights.

Certainly anyone who's C.V. has less than 700hrs TT and 100hrs IFR is immeadiately binned.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

So Phil, perhaps you can tell us what you're looking for from your new recruits? 400hrs and 40 IFR may be the minimums but what would get your attention? I have heard it can be tricky for air taxi operators to find applicants with decent experience.

I'm eager to come back to Britain ASAP to find work after a stint in the US. Air Taxi sounds like it would be an interesting job but I'm just not sure if many of these jobs are out there. I have about 700 hrs, 500 multi and 220 IFR.

[Phil Brockwell]

What would get my attention? OK, here is the list in some order of importance.

1. Have the minimum hours as above.(400tt not 700tt)
2. Be able to pass a base check (please do not assume that have 400hrs etc means you are capable passing a base check.
3. Be the sort of character that I would want to put in front my clients.
4. Be able to walk through the door of whatever base you are at within 30 minutes of getting a phone call.
5. Accept the fact that air taxi work does not pay great money, but it does give you a decent amount of twin hours. There is no salary, but there is enough work to keep you going 'till the big boys knock at your door, or you get onto one of the Kingairs etc.

Ok, a couple of Don'ts (for me, I have no idea what other employers want.)

Don't turn up at my office uninvited
Don't apply if you have less than the specified hours

Phil

[Dan761]

40 Hrs IFR...

Does this have to be filed IFR or does time spent IMC count as well ?

[paradropper]

Are you indicating that you're flying vfr in imc?:8

[Dan761]

Sorry Paradropper
I didn't make myself very clear,the question is,to fly single pilot ops,one of the requirements is:
40 Hours P1 IFR
Under normal circumstances,if flying VFR,upon being unable to maintain VMC,I would upgrade to Radar information/advisory,and although I set off VFR,the time "upgraded" to IMC would be entered in the instrument section of the log book.
Does this time qualify for the 40 hours or is it specific,IFR flight plan=IFR logged.(In which case I understand you log brakes off - brakes on)
I am IR rated,just need advise on the system!

[Cliffhangar]

Dan761

As one of the Visual Flight Rules is to remain VMC, you should know jolly well that you cannot be VFR if you are IMC, whether you have filed an IFR flight plan or not! Perhaps there is the odd SVFR exception, but Paradropper is quite correct to have his ears pricked-up.

So, in answer to your question, you should log IMC time as IFR. I should imagine that as you are asking this question, you will suddenly find that you have sufficient hours to apply to Centreline. Make sure you include your PPrune alias on your CV!

Cheerio!
CliffHangar

[Dan761]

Thanks Cliffhangar

I thought that was the case.As I've done most of my flying abroad,I wasn't sure of the exact definition of IFR relating to Jar Ops requirements.

I can't quite understand the aggressive stance,and didn't mean to upset you.

No : I won't suddenly have sufficient hours to apply
No : I don't want to apply
No : I won't put my alias on my CV,as most,if not all people on pprune don't.

It's an annonymous forum and I don't feel I have anything to defend.Your assumptions couldn't be further from the truth!

Many Thanks!

[Notoc]

Now have over 400 hours and have just called Centreline Air Charter.

Advised to book onto a one day JAR OPS1 First Aid and Fire Drills Course. Course costs £130 Incl lunch.

Also it may be possible to do the Wet Drills course the following day.

Without these courses no operator can base check you for the OPC/LPC.

E-mail the Operations Manager at Centreline Air Charter and he will advise you.

[YYZ_Instructor]

I have been flying for charter operators for a while now and I can give you some advice or information about what i have noticed.
Most operators require 700TT PIC inorder to let you go on your own with customers, but having that time doesn't get u a deffinate PIC seat. A lot of people with liess than 700 get to sit right seat, especially if the AOC states that it can operate as a multi crew aircraft. A lot of charter operators out there are trying to cash in on all the young people trying to build hours, be careful and make sure u know what they are looking for out of you.

Another thing about logging IFR. Log IFR only when you are IMC. That is what IFR means....not observing IFR on a VMC day. If u r in cloud u log that IFR as its your time to sole refrence to the instruments.

About flying VFR in IMC...yes we all do that, and who ever says they don't that works in air charter is a liar. No where does it say that u cannot fly on a VFR plan in IMC conditions outside controlled airspace. You can file VFR on a day with 200' OVC and request an IFR clearance out of the zone....soon as you pass the zone you are free to do what you like. If you think that is crazy...the only thing i can advise is don't ever apply for a job as a charter pilot. Every time u go IFR on a plan will cost the company money for Euro Control fees...hope that gets u thinking...

[Island Hopper]

WHAT?

Quote:
"Another thing about logging IFR. Log IFR only when you are IMC. That is what IFR means"

No it doesn't.

Tonight was a beautiful night. Perfectly VMC.
And I flew IFR.
I had to because there's no alternative -it's the law.

Quote:
"No where does it say that u cannot fly on a VFR plan in IMC conditions outside controlled airspace."

Urr, try your PPL Air Law book mate.
I agree there's nothing to stop you filing a VFR flight plan, but if you do you must maintain VMC, or upon entering IMC outside CAS, upgrade to IFR.

IH

[YYZ_Instructor]

Island Hopper,

First of all I don't have PPL books because I have never had a PPL in the UK. Its an ATPL....and if you are flying commercially you shouldn't be refrencing PPL material.

Ohh and about the night...I cancel IFR and go SVFR to the zone boundary and VFR in uncontrolled airspace at night. No need to be IFR and pay.....

The company will thank-you for it.

[Cliffhangar]

YYZ_Instructor

There's no advantage to small air-taxi operators using aircraft under 2 tonnes MTOW (and there's a few of them about)- no airways fees are incurred!

Shurely Island Hopper is correct to suggest that one of the Visual Flight Rules is to remain VMC?

CH

[smithgd]

Don't you log IFR when flying by sole reference to the instruments, be that:

1) Flying in cloud (IFR in IMC)
2) Under the hood with an instructor/safety pilot
3) VFR on Top (IFR in VMC)

As for night flying...from the ANO section 2 page 16:

Choice of VFR or IFR
Rule 22 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the provisions of rule 21 an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night:
(a) outside a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules; or
(b) in a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

As for VFR in IMC.... from the ANO shedule 8:

The holder shall not:
(a) unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane:
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface.


Hope that helps
smithgd

[mad_jock]

YYZ_Instructor


Its is impossible to be VFR at night in the UK.

If in controlled airspace you can be SVFR. But at night in class G you will be always IFR. If departing from an airfield without any controlled airspace you will be given a IFR clearance which if you have booked out at a level under MSA, will have the arse covering phrase "responcable for your own terrian seperation".

You can log IFR at any time as long as you obey the IFR rules. Be it in VMC or IMC.

You can never ever be legally be VFR if you are in IMC.

Its all in Lasors

[pleiades]

seams you guys are squabling bout some pretty petty stuff.
your IMC when ya have no visual horizon (sole referance = instruments) thats when ya log the IMC hours. a mate of mine logs 0.1 IMC for every take off even on gin clear days. (if you've ever flowen a 737-500 you would agree with him, there is no way you can see the horizon during initial climb out)

and as for all this PPL versus ATPL stuff, mate, an ATPL aint following different rules! just more of them pertaining to a slightly different phase of experiance and responsibily. just because you get an ATPL duznt mean you forget your PPL climbing and decending lessons!!!?!?!?!?!? its a natural progression.

stop being so pedantic.;)

[Jockflyer]

Notoc,

If you do have to do some hrs building to get the min requirements, my advice would be not to fly in circles around Oxfordshire, but rather to get in some real IFR practice. Having the minimum requirements might not help you with a base check. When was the last time you did an NDB approach down to minima with a howling crosswind? This sort of thing will be more useful to you than 100hrs of VFR pleasure flying.

I suggest that the small operators are looking for guys who can handle it when the weather gets bad, and the pressure is on. Those who logged IFR while flying in a straight line through a cloud on a VFR flight will soon be found out.

All my flights are filed as IFR. I log IFR hours from take off to touchdown, even on gin clear days. The FMS flies on the instruments beautifully. These hours are logged the same as the days when I'm doing a NDB approach into Islay with turbulance, low cloud and heavy rain.

What I suppose I'm trying to get across here is that you should try to improve the quality of your IFR flying rather than aimlessly boring holes in the sky to try and reach minimum requirements.

When you do get your first job, if it is single crew charter work, the learning curve for you will be steep. The more real IFR you've done the happier and safer you'll feel. THe cockpit can be a lonely place when things start piling up on you in bad weather.

Good luck.

JF

[Captain101]

Mad Jock got it spot-on.

Eg... You can log IFR flying daytime VMC on a PPL, so long as you are in class G and obey IFR.

You cannot fly VFR at night. (IFR in class G and SVFR in controlled airspace for non rated pilots)

There is a seperate colomn in a JAR log book for logging flight with sole reference to intruments (IF).

It's all in LASORS. (and PPL air law)

As for the original question - I have yet to find where it is written, but from what I understand.

700tt with 50 ME IFR for single pilot "public air transport" IFR.

400tt for "public air transport" VFR.

There are operators around who have exemptions from these rules dropping the IFR requirement to 400tt with 50 ME IFR.

If the operation is not "public air transport" then then neither of these rules apply.