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gaypilote
19th Sep 2005, 14:45
Well obviously the big story on the west side of the pond is that a hurricane is going to hit FL again :hmm: , and getting a 30 second news slot is the fact that one of the most dangerious countries in the world has signed a treaty with the US and China.

Anyone got any more details?

BenThere
19th Sep 2005, 14:49
The announcement was made, and it's certainly encouraging, but follow through is key. N. Korea has proven deceptive and untrustworthy in the past. Verification is everything.

I hope the regime takes the opportunity to rejoin the world community and ease the suffering it has imposed on its people.

Paterbrat
19th Sep 2005, 15:02
Its history of lying and cheating on every single past accord or treaty by N Korea makes for some sceptecism. If their past performance is anything to go by they will lie and cheat some more.

Iran seems to be spoiling for a showdown and in it's very strong financial position with regard to oil is an altogether more menacing oncoming problem. Especialy with it's radical/fanatical politic, espousal of such groups as Hizbollah, and recent statement that it will share it's nuclear expertise with fellow Islamic states/groups.

The present wave of martyrs, in say for example Iraq, with Iranian nuclear backing does not bear thinking about.

West Coast
19th Sep 2005, 15:19
One must look at this agreement in the recent historical context it deserves. That said, I'm hopeful. Now if the EU3 could produce some results.

Paterbrat
19th Sep 2005, 15:27
Looking at the historical context of both I certainly am not holding my breath, and I look upon myself as the eternal optimist.:(

Binoculars
19th Sep 2005, 15:43
Hehe, Paterbrat, I don't see much evidence of that, but we are in very heated agreement here.

The financial situation in North Korea is such that the leaders of major western countries are not going to be taken for dupes. If they want our aid, there will be MASSIVE demands which will render impossible any short term return to a position of nuclear power.

We can only hope that once the assurance of the abolition of any nuclear capability is achieved, there will be some genuine assistance towards the rehabilitation of a country of approximately the population of Australia (unless the toll from starvation proves to be even worse than most analysts suggest).

BenThere
19th Sep 2005, 15:51
Do you think when N. Koreans are released from their long ordeal they will be the most ardent of freedom-loving capitalists?

gaypilote
19th Sep 2005, 16:42
And when America gives its word, America keeps its word... (http://www.bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=175&dir=b)

SASless
19th Sep 2005, 16:54
The American government keeps it word....yeah right! Ask any American Indian about living up to treaties....any retired military person and their promise of medical care....any Veteran and his medical care...all those who have paid into the Social Security fund....oh, yes...the American government lives up to its promises. Yeah, right!

Binoculars
20th Sep 2005, 02:21
Ben There, of course they will! I remember reading a Playboy interview back in the mid-70's ( I bought it for the articles) with a bloke named Karl Hess, of whom I'd never heard and have never heard of again, but one of his comments has stayed with me forever.

The question had something to do with a possible communist invasion of the USA (remember those times?), and his response was along the lines that it could never be successful. Why? "Because as soon as the Russian soldiers saw the American way of life they'd be deserting in droves to open Kentucky Chicken franchises. The system is irresistible!"

Old Karl sure got that one right. ;)

RJM
20th Sep 2005, 03:17
What if PRNK has been exaggerating its nuclear potential all this time, in other words bluffing, to extract the concessions that are now being discussed?

Maybe they've come to join the party - the global economy - and are trying to do so without losing face.

I agree with Binos above - once the North Koreans get a decent sniff of the profits and lifestyles available in the outside world, they'll be eager enough to participate, and will drop their pointless one-man revolt against the way of the world.

West Coast
20th Sep 2005, 04:12
"The financial situation in North Korea is such that the leaders of major western countries are not going to be taken for dupes. If they want our aid, there will be MASSIVE demands which will render impossible any short term return to a position of nuclear power"

This isn't the first time the west has been down this path with NK.
They were pretty damn hardup a number of years ago.

ORAC
20th Sep 2005, 06:18
CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/09/19/korea.north.talks/index.html)

SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea said Tuesday it would begin dismantling its nuclear program only if the United States provides a light-water reactor for civilian power. The demand could threaten a day-old agreement between North Korea and the five nations involved in nuclear disarmament talks. "Without this physical guarantee of the (light-water reactor), our position is not to even dream of us giving up our nuclear deterrence," the official KCNA news agency quoted a spokesman for the North Korean Foreign Ministry as saying.

In Tokyo, the Kyodo News agency quoted Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura as saying North Korea's latest demand was unacceptable, The Associated Press reported......

North Korea's comments came a day after Pyongyang agreed to give up its entire nuclear program, including weapons -- a landmark agreement that was announced in a joint statement from six-party nuclear arms talks in Beijing. The joint statement said North Korea had "committed to abandoning all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs and returning at an early date" to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and to abide by International Atomic Energy Agency safeguards. The statement also said that North Korea stated that it has the the right to "peaceful uses of nuclear energy" and that the provision of a nuclear light-water reactor would be discussed at "an appropriate time." (Full statement)

According to the KCNA report, that time is now. "It has yet to be seen how the U.S. will realize its promise, but if the U.S. continues to demand the giving up of our nuclear weapons prior to providing the (reactor), then nothing changes between the nuclear relationship between the U.S. and North Korea," the North Korean Foreign Ministry spokesman said.......

acbus1
20th Sep 2005, 06:31
......signed a treaty with the US and China.
A vision of Chamberlain holding up a scrap of paper springs to mind.

Anyone know why? :rolleyes:

Paterbrat
20th Sep 2005, 10:50
The interesting thing to me is the hope with which many well intentioned people hold for statements made by the obviously ill intentioned. There exists in this world of ours as many truly cruel merciless and evil people as there are kind mercifull and good.

The problem seems to be that the one set are hampered by their very good nature the other assisted by their lack of scruple

There are without any shadow of doubt a huge number of N Koreans who yearn for what their Southern cousins enjoy, the problem of course lies with those in controll. Those in controll are those who have been in controll for many years and it is their track record that will dictate what happens.

Their track record speaks for itself, and to go back to the analogy of the piece of paper in Chamberlins hand, it was a long, brutal, costly, bloody and extremely difficult and prolonged exercise to remove Hitler and all he stood for. It was paid for by the lives and ultimate sacrifice of many.

Nothing but nothing in this life comes free and sometimes the fact has to be faced that the omlette on your plate involved broken eggs.

Binoculars
20th Sep 2005, 10:58
Paterbrat, I don't think your analogy of Nazi Germany is apposite. Nazi Germany had a fully functioning and vibrant economy which made their heinous crimes possible with the unknowing participation of the general populace.

A country run by an insane syphilitic megalomaniac who inherited his position will eventually, quite simply, run out of money. The scenes I've seen of magnificent six lane highways in NK are heartbreaking because there are never any cars on them except government cars.

When a whole population is starving to death because the only jobs available are army jobs, eventually even the dimmest of dictators will realise that he has to make a few compromises.

While I have grave misgivings about the infiltration of Americana into my homeland, I eagerly anticipate the arrival of the first McDonalds in Pyongyang as the sign that hope for these poor bastards is at least visible in the distance.

ORAC
20th Sep 2005, 12:50
In Thomas L. Friedman's 1999 book The Lexus and the Olive Tree the following theory was presented: "No two countries that both had McDonald's had fought a war against each other since each got its McDonald's". While the observation may be true, the conclusions to be drawn are unclear. The global expansion of McDonald's restaurants is a relatively recent phenomenon when put into the context of the history of warfare......... ;)

Capt.KAOS
20th Sep 2005, 13:03
McDemocracy... Or Democracy XP 1.01...

At least it's non violent and longer lasting, whether it's more healthier and error free?

Binoculars
20th Sep 2005, 13:09
Whether you want to call it western colonialism, imperialism or just straightforward Americanisation, it's sad but true that McDonalds is THE symbol of global capitalism.

The proposition put forward in Orac's quote will no doubt soon be obsolete as only Antarctica will be without the golden arches.

What I don't understand is how they've been so successful selling such crap food?

BenThere
20th Sep 2005, 13:13
It's cheap, tasty, fast, and consistent.

Another wonder is Coca-cola. A mega-billion dollar empire based on selling cold, sugared, carbonated beverage portions everywhere.

Binoculars
20th Sep 2005, 13:47
OK, it's subjective, but every time I get a burger from my local corner shop, I wonder at the power of advertising.

Fast food chain burgers follow the advertising maxim of converting a minus into a plus; witness the apparent desirability of being able to munch on a burger with one hand as opposed to those horrible burgers twice the size that (shock horror) need two hands to hold.

Tasty? I can't eat McD, and I'm a junk food addict. Pizza, Fried Cat, no probs, but the one time (20 years ago) I ordered a Big Mac because nothing else was open and I was desperate I couldn't eat it. Utter crap.

Fast? At normal meal times, I could walk to the corner shop, order and consume a proper burger, and walk home in the time it takes to drive to Maccas and sit in the drive thru.

Consistent? You got that right!



Ben There, you are from the home of the burger. You don't need me to tell you what a good one tastes like, but if necessary, I undertake to remind you in January!

RJM
20th Sep 2005, 13:57
But is cheap, tasty, fast and consistent really enough, even of food?

(Hmm. Just thinking of women and cars... Retires to edit...)

Farrell
20th Sep 2005, 13:59
Muahahahah!

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea insisted Tuesday it won't dismantle its nuclear weapons program until the U.S. gives it civilian nuclear reactors, casting doubt on a disarmament agreement reached a day earlier during international talks. Washington reiterated its rejection of the reactor demand and joined China in urging North Korea to stick to the agreement announced Monday in which it pledged to abandon all its nuclear programs in exchange for economic aid and security assurances

ORAC
20th Sep 2005, 14:02
Posted on the other thread this morning. :hmm:

Onan the Clumsy
20th Sep 2005, 14:15
...well I was just thinking ahead.



Old dame (who is really a yound man) enters stage left, audience of five year olds shouts "He's behind you".

Old dame (wiraym) turns and looks over right shoulder and Kim Jong Ill ducks behind his left shoulder.

BenThere
20th Sep 2005, 14:40
As a formula for the perfect woman, you may have something RJM. I fear I might soon be hungry for something a little more exquisite, as I find is the case with McDonald's.

Binos, have you tried the Filet-O-Fish? What a sublime amalgamation of North Atlantic Whitefish uniformly battered and served with secret recipe tartar sauce with a half-slice of American processed cheese product on a steamed bun.

Looking forward to the January Oz Fest and I'm working it very hard. We should soon revive that thread.

You won't find a truly great hamburger at any franchise, only small proprieters know how, and take the care, to do it right, IMHO.