View Full Version : QF 767 shorthaul

19th Sep 2005, 05:18
For those in the know. Would Qf 767 crews be better off on LH or SH award now they do predominately SH flying? CAO flight and duty exemptions, pay rates, squirrel cage, days off, pattern protection, etc.

19th Sep 2005, 07:27
Only if they got the A300 pay rates indexed for our pay rises since the aircraft was phased out.

Incidentally, my understanding was that the union aproached QF to put the 767 domestic fleet on the short haul award a bunch of years ago on the A300 rates. The company said 'no' because we were cheaper on the L/H rates at the time. That may not still be the case though! :E

Personally, the 767 still does enough international stuff to keep it on the long haul award. I wouldn't like to do the SIN trip I just did on the S/H award and even the Narita and long CGK trips wouldn't be pretty either- unless the pay rate was the A300 rate indexed! :}

19th Sep 2005, 08:27
The shorthaul system as it stands with no M.D.C. or pattern protection and sick leave sucks so much it isnt funny. If your out to earn extra $ and you have no life outside of flying thats a different story. The one and only good thing about shorthaul, is that days off are yours.

Captain Can't
19th Sep 2005, 11:41
L/H CA, without a shadow of a doubt. If the union went for it, they'd have rocks in their heads or really want that management job. QF briefly proposed it i believe just recently (last 12 months??) and aipa sent them packing with a "whats wrong with short haul award list" and they haven't brought it up since. the LHCA may have it's pro's/cons (seniorority etc), but it's streets ahead of the SH.
Having said all that, I have worked under the SH award, it's just that, workable, don't get sick.
(and if aipa can come up with a "whats wrong with SHCA list" just like that, why don't they do something about it!!?? oh yeah, too busy reforming :ok:

19th Sep 2005, 22:29
Hey Cant dont knock the ARG. Just because your retired now don't mean old has beans like you can spoil our party.

Someone told me that Q asked for 767 shorthaul in the EBA. What a laugh. Imagine all us old guys having to squirrel? I've done my time in the barrell now its somebody elses time.

19th Sep 2005, 23:18
Thanks for the reply's.
The reason I ask and I probably should have qualified my position earlier. I have been an FO on the 73 for a few years and I have spoken with 76 FO's of similar seniority and more senior (still rotating after more than 3 years on type) than I and in my opinion (and opinions on lifestlye will always be different) is that on the 737 we have much more control over our lives, more days off and go home at the end of the year with more in our pockets. I don't appreciate how the SH award would work for LH ops as I haven't looked into it.

20th Sep 2005, 00:08
More in the pocket of a 737 F/O - i dont think so. A higher hourly rate doesnt compare with MDC of 5hrs 30 (active/passive) or the credits for the trips they do. S/H can do a 12 hour day and get paid 2 hours 55! Utter crap. I would rather take a lower hourly pay and get paid more hours.

As for roster disruption, the old 734s are starting to break down left right and center - it means you lose the hours no pattern protection. Also you dont have to chase the extra hours.

A 767 F/O is about 30 grand better off than a 737 F/O.

As for more days off.....well maybe but only once you are in the top 20-30 of the squirrel...otherwise your bidding power for trips is useless.


Veruka Salt
20th Sep 2005, 00:27
All the previous comments are spot on.

One of the company's claims for EBA 7 was for the 767 to transfer to the shorthaul award. The problem I have with that (in addition to the good points mentioned previously) is that the 767 network - as it currently stands - could not generate sufficiently dense patterns to achieve high daily stick hours, and therefore adequate days off. The 73 doesn't have this problem due to the long sectors in its flying program (plenty of Perth returns, etc).

A quick look at my roster, comprised mainly of domestic flying, would show the number of sectors that are routinely downgraded (sorry!!) to 737. If the company does this on a regular basis to optimise capacity - which makes perfect commercial sense - then without MDC then we will lose financially.

20th Sep 2005, 01:05
Thanks Veruka, question answered, your points regarding density for 767 on domestic makes sense as to why they would not want to change.

Blueloo, as for lifestyle and pay. I can only go on what the guys (still rotating) have told me. Maybe it is significantly better once you are permanent pattern.
Life on the 737 is a lot better than it was a couple of years ago even though FO hours are down.

Captain Can't
20th Sep 2005, 01:08
sorry, that may have come across as a knock... well I was thinking about having a go but then realised the frying pan is full of other fish being fried atm... hence the ":ok: "
we'll see how the ARG goes... a little blood letting goes a long way sometimes... hmmm :uhoh:

20th Sep 2005, 01:13
There are fairly significant plus' and minus' for both awards. I wish that we could somehow combine the best of both and we would have nirvana. Sigh. Guess that ain't gonna happen.

Blue, I'm not sure what planet you are on, but it isn't the planet Qantas. A 737 FO will earn approximately the same as his 767 bretheren. Certainly not $30K less as you suggest. I know 737 FO's who have earned $160K and others around $125. The average is probably $135. Very similar to 767.

Give me a 767 Brisbane base on the long haul award. Paradise would then only be complete with 70 virgins.:ok:

20th Sep 2005, 04:40
blueloo perhaps you should flush.

The shorthaul system as it stands with no M.D.C. or pattern protection and sick leave sucks so much it isnt funny.

Nope. Most of us are quite happy with the short haul system, guaranteed days off, the right to say NO, contactable on reserves only.

the old 734s are starting to break down left right and center

Where did you find this information?

A 767 F/O is about 30 grand better off than a 737 F/O.

I am impressed that 767 F/Os are earning $180,000.

As for more days off.....well maybe but only once you are in the top 20-30 of the squirrel...otherwise your bidding power for trips is useless.

Sorry, but that's crap that should be flushed too.

20th Sep 2005, 05:55
Sorry Blue but, as others have pointed out, you're wrong. I'm a 737F/O about halfway up the list- working 13 days this month, 78 hours, last year's payslip says $135K (not including allowances which were about $10K) and my name is never in the book. Shorthaul award has it's faults but $137/hr and no contactability goes a long way towards evening things out.

21st Sep 2005, 09:06
Are you sure lurker? Your payslip will have the allowances included. If your $137 per hour is correct, then $135K divided by $137 (hourly rate) divided by 12 (months in year) gives 82 hours a month, which does not sound right. Assuming an average of 75 hours a month and $10K allowances, the pay comes in at around $133K, which is close to the $130 I made last financial year (10 years in company). BTW a mate who joined a few months before me got $160K as a second officer on the 744.


Veruka Salt
22nd Sep 2005, 04:16
A mate of mine is about a quarter of the way up the 767 F/O list; his last payslip for the financial year showed total gross earnings of $147K which included about $18K in allowances. That would suggest he is earning more than a 737 F/O of similar seniority, acknowledging though that 737 hours have been down lately.

However, he works a hell of a lot harder than 13 days a month and doesn't get the variety of flying that the 737 guys do!

22nd Sep 2005, 04:43
Specefic numbers for me: 134,367 ( I plead guilty to rounding up to $135k) Allowances are not included in that figure and they were 11,993. As far as a 10+year 744 S/O, and the fact that guys whose only function is to answer SELCAL make more than actual pilots goes, well.... Plenty of bandwith already used on that subject.

22nd Sep 2005, 07:27
My last 4 months have been around 68 hours. I am at work a lot a lot more than 13 days a month. 68-72 ish is i think the base average. Melb is higher.

Mate of mine who has been on it for 2 years now says its unlikely without chasing hours he will get 130k.

GT-R - really Cough cough. You are very arrogant and correct - I should flush myself. - I am clearly in La la Land and smoking to many drugs.

I would say nearly every capt and fo other than original shorthaul captains arent happy with the award. Given the surveys which AIPA is carrying out, I would suggest that AIPA is aware of the problem. Maybe you chose not to partake in the survey.

Cant see where you got 767 F/Os earning 180k. Maybe you can provide your source. I just re-read my post - I certainly didnt quote that figure. Can I lend you some glasses.

As for 734s breaking down - well my last 3 trips have been disrupted due to parts falling off 734s - including rivets found missing. Then again you wont believe me - so please feel free to find a source. It was a generalised statement - however being the pedantic person you clearly are (you must be an anus to fly with) you will no doubt go to maintenance watch and bring the actual statistics for 734 dispatch reliability and post them here.

As for top 20-30.... well maybe you can enlighten the rest of us - the last few Capts I have spoken to say at no14 or 9, they still cant bid for the roster they want. They suggest dont bother specific bidding until in the top 20or 30. However I am sure you are an open minded individual and clearly being highly intelligent, you will be aware that this is subject to many influencing factors.

22nd Sep 2005, 08:59
Settle Gretel, remember often those who whinge about the 734s are the nervous pilots.....

If you don't get the 180k bit you can - just this once - borrow my scarcasm reveal-erator -----> ;=-

Have a go with your bidding, remember, the Captain is not ALWAYS right

22nd Sep 2005, 09:04
wow. Qantas has a lot of nervous 734 pilots then!

22nd Sep 2005, 10:08
With respect if you are working 'a lot more than 13 days' for 'around 68 hours' then, honestly, you're stuffing up. I might have mis-read but it doesn't sound like you've been on the A/C long (it also sounds like you're the type who can't be told, but maybe that's just me) I've been around a while and I can only think of a few times I had density less than 5 and they were all because I had stuffed up or something weird was happening with the patterns. Maybe you should ask those 'original shorthaul captains' how to bid and you will get better results.

22nd Sep 2005, 14:19
Your're right lurker, my bidding is stuffed up. :D I was aiming for 65 hours, and those pesky people keep on giving me extra work. By the way, I wasnt complaining about my monthly hours - I was unhappy about MDC and pattern protection and sick leave provisions - and just for your information there are several either side of me who work similar hours, days at work and have similar concerns etc - they are not original Captains either - they are F/Os, so maybe the poor bidding is not just limited to 1, and possibly a bit more fleet wide - hence the regular updates in the AIPA or tech newsletters on how to s/h bid.

Thanks for the thoughtful suggestion of asking those original captains, I never would have thought of that.

The Librarian
23rd Sep 2005, 00:17
Lurker69 said
the fact that guys whose only function is to answer SELCAL make more than actual pilots

I take offence to that remark Lurker. I have a lot more responsibilities as a second officer than just answering SELCAL. I have to organise how to maximise my 6 hours sleeping time per sector and decide which order the crosswords will be done during my breaks as well as trying to decide what to do with my average 20 days off per month whilst also worrying how to spend the $140K+ I received for all my lack of skills last year.

Most people only retire once in their lives. As a lifestyle SO you get to do it twice.;)

Wun Wing Lo
23rd Sep 2005, 05:12
Can't resist, have to bight....

SO's 140K+ damn what rubbish. Either that or I am owed serious back pay.

Compare take home pay against payslips between ranks and types.

Basic maths fella's.

And exchange rates make a big mac expensive in the uk.

Maybe thats why SO's cruise only now. There was nothing to differentiate them between fo and capn.

After all its the SO's who bear the responsibility for driving into golf courses.....

When someone farts blame the dog..... other than that its those damn lifestyle SO's.

Im sure you all have enough seniority to bid across to the B744 as SO.

Captain Can't
24th Sep 2005, 02:25
come on mate, these days it's all sudoku