Can't swim - Can't fly

[Hingeless Rotor]

Is it unreasonable to expect the guy next to you to be able to swim when conducting offshore operations.

The guy I fly with can't swim, how the hell is he going to save my life if we ditch?

He stresses like crazy when the HUET course is due and has been pulled out of the unit twice!!

Scares the 5hit out of me........:sad:

[Recuperator]

Knowing he can't swim, are you going to try and rescue him first as it seems you expect him to rescue you??

You cant expect someone else, who is in the same dire situation as you to try and rescue you first, while he is trying to survive himself. Not everybody are good, strong swimmers. And what about the 10 guys in the back that can or can’t swim? Are you going to save them all?

Do you think it is expected of you? I don't think so...

HUET recurrency was discussed on another tread, where 2 passengers out of 5 in a ditched Lynx survived. One was the captain who went down to go and rescue others. He subsequently got trapped and drowned himself.

My question:

Was he really trapped or was he grabbed by panicking passengers or crew and drowned in the process? A drowning person overcome by panic is an extremely dangerous person and many lifesavers will tell you about the perils of trying to save someone else. That’s the reason for creating special rescue techniques where pacifying a panicking victim is all part of the rescue effort.

As I see it, your life is your own responsibility and you should develop your own skills to better your chances of survival.

[diginagain]

........your life is your own responsibility and you should develop your own skills to better your chances of survival.

As I frequently travel with up to 18 others 'down the back' on offshore flights, I couldn't agree more. Mates may be mates, but the only one with your best interests at heart is yourself.

[r44tropic]

The Huet course is essential as all of you who have done the course. I actually work with 2 pilots that don't see it that worthwhile or a waste of time.

All pilots that have regular flights overwater should be kept up to grade with theire huet and some sort of regular swim training.

What price is your life?? If he can't swim i'd encourage him to learn or risk being left behind.

[Dave_Jackson]

Buy a child's blowup water wings and leave them on his seat. :D



Opps! Talking about 'wings' on a rotorcraft forum is a no, no.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I never passed the RAF swimming test - I can only manage 25 meters if the pool's that deep.

Managed 26 years flying including long-range (8h 30+) low-level overwater sorties, SAR and MCT without a hitch. Did my hideous 2-yearly dunker runs like a good little boy (except the time I was on penicillin for something or other :cool: which precluded the run). Never saw the point of such repetition - every detail of every run is eternally etched into my memory. It's a drill, like parachuting or spin recovery. Even with STASS, which to my mind is the foulest form of torture ever visited upon aircrew (yes, I've read the other thread on this subject).

So, just 'cos someone can't swim doesn't mean he/she can't do the drills. Personally I'd rather make sure someone spent his time practising the skills required to deal competently with emergencies instead of playing "bob" in the pool. Can he/she get out of the aircraft and into the dinghy with one arm inoperative? Can he/she provide the knowledge and leadership to pax and crew who find themselves taking an early, unforeseen bath in water temperatures of 10 deg or less? Far more useful than 2 lengths crawl/ breaststroke/ backstroke or whatever.

[Arm out the window]

On the other hand, for most of us of reasonable fitness (able to pass a flying medical for example) I imagine it wouldn't be all that hard to learn to swim effectively - it seems a bit defeatist to say 'I can't swim' and leave it at that.

No disrespect intended to anyone who can't manage it for some physical reason, but surely it makes good sense for an inexperienced swimmer to boost their own odds of survival by getting a few lessons and hitting a pool somewhere for some personal training.

[SHortshaft]

It is all in the co-ordination. Some of you have it…others of us don’t. For me it only takes a couple of strokes before I manage to coordinate breathing with my head being underwater…after that I am (soggy) toast. It seems Thud_and_Blunder and I achieved the same level of attainment (in swimming) during our previous lives.

However I have never found it a particular issue when I have been doing HUET, underwater escape training in the submarine tower or ‘dingy drill’ off the back of a high speed launch in the English Channel.

I haven’t seen many people that can swim very far in an immersion suit and an inflated lifejacket so I don’t feel at a significant disadvantage. I still feel that in the real event I could probably match the overall survival performance of a fellow pilot who is a mediocre swimmer but has sustained a broken arm (or similar) in the crash.

I am with those who concentrate their training on doing everything they can to keep the helicopter from becoming flooded with salt water … but I don’t discount the value of ‘quality’ recurrent HUET training either. However the morning spent in the local Hyatt swimming pool with the suitcase portable rig is too much like a ‘tick in the box’ for my liking.

[gadgetguru]

Is it a poor assumption that most offshore bods would be using at least the tri-laminate immersion suits for their crew?

Basically a dry-suit, a bubble per se, so one could float without being concerned of keeping one's head above the waves/drowning, in light to moderate seas, even without the assistance of a life (buoyancy) vest.

these dry-suits, which when donned, the majority of the air can be expelled, but it's not until you are actually in the water that you will realise just how much air is still left in the suit, so whilst you get the ankle squeeze inherent with such dry suits, you also get the michellin-man upper torso as all the air bubbles to the uppermost area.

depending which way you look at it this can make it easier or more difficult to swim
easier in that you wont drown, you'll at least float, but more difficult to actuall propell yourself through the water, my personal least pleasant activity in a dry suit when diving was the surface swim to the descent point, you are a flailing mess within a bubble, not so bad with fins, but with just your arms & legs to work with, you'll get very exhausted, very quickly.

having been on the surface of very rough seas in a dry suit trying to get to a boat, whilst dragging nothing but my sorry self, but on occassion the odd disillusioned dive-student, I personally would be more concerned with including a decent set of fins in my ditch kit (this is understandably probably not a luxury afforded to aircrew, but)
I've never seen a para-resuce diver enter the drink without them, & they are not too disimilar once they hit the water; in that they have exited an aircraft into the drink & are attempting to reach persons or equipment (life-raft) in the water, when battling wind, current, wave & fatigue, you have a very short life expectancy without hindering yourself further with limited physical capability.

[skidbita]

That's a bit of a bummer when you live on an island and all you do is fly over water!!!:ok:
That's the shot old fella.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

As it happens, I can swim quite well, and I don't fly helicopters.

But, I can't recall ever living anywhere that swimming lessons weren't available cheaply and locally. If I was in that position, I'd **** learn to swim, just as at other stages in my own life I've learned numerous other skills that whilst not absolutely required were of real or potential use to me.

Strikes me that some polite encouragement might be in order. If he's embarrassed about being unable to swim, then polite but anonymous help can be a face saver, for example leaving details of a slightly out-of-town swimming course for him.

The thing to avoid, just because the bloke is human like anybody else is direct confrontation or anybody ordering him.

G

[spinwing]

So....

what should be the reaction of professional pilots employed to fly Offshore for a company who refuses to utilise HUET type training for their flight crews... Even when its available locally AND is in fact required by that companys major client of their own employees before they are allowed to travel by helicopter???

:( :eek:

[rottweiler]

Strikes me that some polite encouragement might be in order
I imagine it wouldn't be all that hard to learn to swim effectively - it seems a bit defeatist to say 'I can't swim' and leave it at that

FWIW, I had all the cheap/expensive/ high-quality training the Air Force could muster, including one-one lessons from a world-class athlete during OCTU. Didn't produce the goods, I'm afraid - silk purses/sows ears spring to mind. However, it didn't stop me from becoming a Combat Survival and Rescue training officer either, able to conduct drills in the pool and open water. If you have the right kit, training and attitude, you don't need to be a swimmer to be able to manage (and lead) post-crash skills.

As for 2-yearly HUET - I have a sneaking suspicion they're there to justify the existence of the dunker and attendant PEd staff or their equivalent. Like I said before - every moment of every drill is clear in my memory (this is close to my own personal Room 101, remember). The day we make bang-seat riders eject every 2 years "so they remember what to do" is the day we justify 6-dunks-with-STASS. IMHO, obviously... :cool:

[Genghis the Engineer]

When I used to fly in a Martin Baker product it was pool drill (dropped off a crane) every 8 months, and sea-drills (thrown off a lifeboat, free helicopter ride an hour or so later) every 2 years. No pass, no fly.

I agree that you don't *need* to be a swimmer, but you do need to be able to keep your head and act as trained when immersed in water. Learning to swim is a pretty reasonable way of helping to achieve that.

Incidentally, for some years, I used to be a canoeing instructor - regularly teaching capsize and rescue drills. The minima set by the British Canoe Union was the ability to tread water for 2 minutes (in your kit, including buoyancy aid) and swim 50 metres - hardly a high standard of swimming ability. But, people who were not confident swimmers often (not always to be fair) panicked when capsized, becoming a liability to themselves and to a lesser extent other people.

G

[rottweiler]

...hmm - looks like last night's duty pilot forgot to log-off PPRuNe when he left the work computer. Don't worry Rotty - your secret is safe with me...

:p

Thud

[bondu]

I'm with rottweiler!
I also had the benefit of the best training in the military, including one on one training. Still can't swim! I also did the CSRO course at Mountbatten and became my unit's Combat Survival and Rescue officer. I too conducted drills in both pools and open water.
I now fly over the North Sea, and have done for most of the last 18 years. I complete my HUET training regularly, even though I don't actually look forward to it! I also did the STASS training some years ago before it was decided that we pilots were not worthy to have them!
Confidence in the drills and the equipment are by far the best thing. The ability to swim can lead to over confidence in what can be acheived when wearing an immersion suit and LSJ etc.

bondu