BA Longhaul Roster

[Bae]

Hello all,

I am considering applying for BA longhaul.
Lifestyle is a big issue for me and my family (two young children).
Is there any BA longhaul pilot out there who would share his roster with me? What about commuting to/from Europe mainland?Also any comment welcome.

Thanks.

[wiggy]

Bae
Your roster is very dependant on the Fleet you end up on ( 777 vs 747) and also your seniority, you really need to see a Junior guys/girls roster.

FWIW the junior pilots on the 777 do almost entirely short ( maybe 6-7 X 3day ) trips, to the Gulf or Eastern Seaboard of the US, with perhaps two days off between ( or back to backing trips if they are struggling to make the monthly target known as CAP). The Senior guys may do slightly better but they as yet don't have a lot of long trips on the Fleet.

On the 747 there are more longer trips to spread around, but the junior guys will still probably be doing 1X5 day trip and 3/4/5 of the shorter ones......

Re: commuting from the European mainland; entirely possible, not always easy, but lots do it.

[Bae]

Thanks wiggy

6-7 trips a month sounds heavy to me, how do you translate this into hours flown?

[Human Factor]

Plan to fly around 800 hours per year. Extra work can mean more. Your contract is effectively for the full 900 hours (actually 1043 credit hours but it amounts to the same thing), unlike our cousins with the red tails who are contracted for 750 hours.

[Bae]

Do you get only two days off in a row, or sometimes longer as well?

[wiggy]

Bae
You would probably need the triple guys/girls to help here, since that's probably where you would end up as a DEPs, as I'm on the 747 I can only give one point of view. It should be a minimum of two days off, it will sometimes be more. Also bear in mind some of the three day trips have early reports, meaning you may have to commute to London the night before, on the other hand many of them also have early finishes ( e.g. getting in from the States breakfast time), so as long as your commute is fairly efficient you could get a fair proportion of day three of the trip actually at home - swings and roundabouts and all that.

[Bae]

Wiggy,

Concerning commuting to/from London, how is staff travel organized at BA?

[Hotel Mode]

Nothing for 6 months then unlimited ID90 standbys. plus a club bookable ticket annually for FO's.

[snooky]

Dont forget too that you NEVER get a day off.

You can be forced to work on any day off that is legal.

[Human Factor]

Unless you use caller ID. ;)

[acbus1]

Go for it! Take the job, if it's offered!


Then get preggers (sex change op worth a try) and get BALPA spend loads of members cash to get you part time and loadsa time off.


Sorted.....cushy life. :ok:

[prob30]

Can we be absolutely clear about forced draft please!

You only have to work if they can get hold of you. There was a post a while back about a capt with a big red phone which if it rang on a day off he knew it was BA cos they were the only ones with the number!

It's only a game folks.

[Bae]

Why are some people so negative about BA?

Are there so many better deals out there, or am I naive?

[trietwentie]

BAE,

Personnally, I think BA is still a better place to be in many respects. I look back at my experience in a major airline and experience in several start-ups and developed lo-co's. For apparently many people working for BA or thinking about working there, the long wait to command is an issue and force draft appears to be a problem. But hopefully this is where the DEP's come in to save the day. Working hard should not be a factor, since everybody else works hard.
But what about pay increases combined with seniority (read lifestyle), decent travel priviledges , SH+LH ops? That, in my view, is the way to survive a long airline career!
Lo-co's careers are overshadowed by a career in a major airline in many ways. Command is usually, and understandably, the only career goal because of money and for some...ego. Lifestyle in lo-co's (better pick of holiday, WE's,better trips...) usually does not improve with seniority and sadly is not given the attention it should have.
Some people seem to have lost perspective of where BA working conditions stand in respect to other carriers around them.

If you go for BA...it probably won't be a bad thing, I guess you can always return to the good ol' lo-co's or charters. I too applied for longhaul with BA, since it is the only way out of a system where lifestyle just does not seem to improve. In my view, BA's seniority system is a developed system, as is the airline, and this gives a chance of getting a lifestyle and paypackage that can improve with seniority.

Good luck !

[Autobrake Low]

Trietwentie
Very refreshing to hear your remarks! I totally agree and also look forward to the positive side of BA that others seem to forget exist!

[snooky]

Even caller ID won't save a new DEP.

A blind line holder will have TAS days on his/her line. This means a contactable time on the day before any days off. Nothing to stop a long trip being assigned into the days off.

So where's the attraction for someone wanting a lifestyle?

No days off known in advance.
Poor pension.
900 hrs a year.
Work every weekend.
Stay at the bottom of the list for years after 2006.
Many years to command.
Deal with amazing mismanagement.
At least 5 trips across the pond a month.

The days off problem may be mitigated if forced draft is proved to be illegal in European law.

I'm not saying don't do it, just warning that life will be very hard if lifestyle is important.

[GS-Alpha]

BLR 4.4.2.1 actually states that you can arrange for a third party to collect your message during your time of contactability during TAS. Your answering machine is considered to be a third party. So if you are careful, you cannot be forced to work on your days off, even when contactable, because they cannot do that via a machine.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Is it not true that under BLR, trips are offered in decreasing seniority first, and if not taken, FD starts from the bottom?

So the first call you get should be an offer, not FD.

[wiggy]

P_T etc
I think that sadly, in the opinion of the BidLine guru's that is a long standing myth, best not pick up the phone.

Now, about the European Working Time Diirective.............

[GS-Alpha]

The intent is that FD should only be applied in extremis. This could be read as meaning when there are no volunteers, and so straight draft would have to be offered to all volunteers first.

At the moment FD is very frequent because there are not enough pilots, and so it seems they are taking no chances and Forced Drafting absolutely anyone they can get hold of! This then makes the situation worse because even the volunteers want to have the option to refuse certain trips. So now they are turning off their phones too, exacerbating the problem further.

It is a can of worms.

[snooky]

Oh, nearly forgot!

If the lack of days off and endless nights working does get to you and you go sick (as you are legally required to do when unfit to operate), they'll have you spending many days involved in formal interviews as per the absence management policy which our esteemed union signed up to recently.

Of course, this wont put undue pressure on you to operate when you shouldnt, even if it can ultimately lead to your dismissal.

[normal_nigel]

Snooky if its so sh1t why don't you just go somewhere else?

There isn't a law saying you have to work for BA.

I'm sick and tired of all the bleeding hearts.

Can't even go on the BALPA site anymore because I'm sick of the same few know-alls bleating on about their woes. Its like a bunch of mincing hairdressers at a coffee morning. If you dare say that things are Ok you get pounced on and slagged off.

Try the real world because compared to everywhere else, BA is a breeze.

[snooky]

I'm just serving out my sentence for the pension.

I do feel that people should be warned though. As I said before, they can go ahead and try it if they want, but at least it won't come as a total surprise if they've been warned.

It did used to be good.

[GS-Alpha]

normal_nigel

You are right that things at BA are OK.

However, you are wrong if you do not think our terms and conditions are deteriorating.

The vocal bunch on the BALPA forum are simply trying to stop this deterioration, and it is people like you that are allowing it to happen. Just because things are worse elsewhere does not mean that we should let that happen to BA.

IF YOU LIKED ELSEWHERE'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS, WHY DID YOU BOTHER COMING TO BA?

[Riker]

Do you find BA pilots leaving for other UK airlines like Virgin or Brits or even one of the LCCs? On average, how many BA pilots leave for other UK airlines per year? Gotta be a small number I would think...

[normal_nigel]

IF YOU LIKED ELSEWHERE'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS, WHY DID YOU BOTHER COMING TO BA?

What? Had a beer have we? (0223) Haven't I just said BA is better than anywhere else?

The situation, in the short term at BA, is rough, with lots of force draft etc but it is still off the scale compared to others.

Hotels, salary,rosters, control of life (for the majority), routes, posting and promotions oppurtunities etc etc.

Go on the BALPA forum and you'd think we'd been asked to work down the mines again.

Nothing but know-all whingers but with no ********who (in many cases) have led such sheltered pampered lives they have lost touch with reality.

I trust BALPA to represent me and I think they do a damn good job of it.

[GS-Alpha]

Haven't I just said BA is better than anywhere else?

Yes but unless we stand up against the little things it will not remain this way. Forced Draft is getting out of hand, it will soon be the case that you cannot avoid personal contact, because they are desperate!

The people on the BALPA forum are making so much noise because they are frustrated at what is happening to their terms and conditions on a daily basis. Too many people are prepared to sit there and accept it, and so in BALPA's own words, they do not have the support from the members, that they need in order to halt the erosion. Ok, if you feel the deterioration is acceptable, fine, but when you look back in ten years time at how things have changed, I just hope you do not regret your acceptance. Out of curiosity, how many times have you been forced drafted recently, and just how inconvenient was it for you to do it?

I guess the fact that DEPs no longer have a FSS pension is insignificant too, because you don't get that in lots of other companies? Yes it is probably still good to come to BA but it would be a lot better with a FSS. We could have secured that for new entrants if we had stood united. I just hope we are all a bit more united when it comes to protecting our own pensions? Unfortunately there are too many people who think if I am alright Jack, then I will not bother supporting the reps. This is not how the members of a union are supposed to act, and as a result, BALPA are fighting a battle with one hand tied behind their back.

[Harry Wragg]

N_N you really are a true believer, I just wish I could find someone as gullible as you to buy my house, problems, what problems, I trust my estate agent till the ends of the earth.

The thing about BA is that the T's and C's will continue to decline, this isn't a blip. Its just a case of waiting for a better opportunity, as they come along people will jump ship, unless they are true believers!

Harry (boy this silver spoon sure chaffs)

[normal_nigel]

Harry

Not gullible, just not born with a sliver spoon hanging out of my arse and unlike half the idiots on the forum, I have had a life outside BA both in flying and elsewhere.

I would be first on the picket line if BALPA call a strike, but not over things like Houston.

For those who don't know 1 daylight sector failed it schedule regularity monitoring by 1% putting it into a bunk aircraft bracket. (current rest is a club seat as a minimum).

BA don't have any bunked aircraft at Gatwick so BALPA agreed with them an alleviation to operate the service without a bunk.

This included but was not limited to

1. A guaranteed First Class rest seat on ALL 4 daily sectors to IAH (even though only one had failed).

2. This for the next 3 years even if next year the sector that failed passes.

So that means that the crews are now better off than before.

But oh no, not according to the doom know-alls on the BA forum. You wouldn't belive the hissy fits being thrown. They want a strike over it for Gods sake.

You can just see it now "BA pilots strike because they want a bunk on one day flight and not a First class seat on 4"

That would work...not.

But hey, lets not let the reality or the silent majority spoil things for the 50 or so gobbies on the forum.

Oh and I've been Force Drafted twice this summer.

So Harry, can I respectfully request that you toddle off somewhere else and leave the dreadful BA to us poor things who are happy.

I'll keep my £95000+ and 56 days leave a year, thank you very much.

[wiggy]

Hey N-N

The bunk issue has s*d all to do with the hissy fits (aka serious concerns) on the other forum by the "gobbies". The "gobbies" are more concerned about one of their (your!) colleagues being keel hauled for daring to actually planning to do something other than work on one of his rostered days off.

Enjoy your Draft.

[Hand Solo]

For those who don't know 1 daylight sector failed it schedule regularity monitoring by 1% putting it into a bunk aircraft bracket

And the other service only passed by 6%, despite both of them operating on 'minimum time' Cirrus plans at the expense of +4 tonnes fuel burn. You think the company will be operating at +4 tonnes fuel burn now they know they can bypass schedule regularity?

A guaranteed First Class rest seat on ALL 4 daily sectors to IAH (even though only one had failed).


Oh great. A big seat right next to a galley in the passenger cabin. Bet that'll be great for adequate rest.

I'll keep my £95000+ and 56 days leave a year, thank you very much.

You're starting to sound like one of the 'I'm alright Jack' skippers who opposed the equalisation of co-pilot FHR because they thought it was stealing their money!

Lateness credit gone, late MT payment gone, credit theft on countless sectors, force draft every weekend, unrealistic turnaround times, removal of trip buffers on short haul and it goes on? See a trend developing NN. You may be happy to sit at home and count your money, but money isn't the be all and end all for many of us. We'd like to enjoy the job again and keep control over our lives. Now I'll be off to get myself a pay as you go mobile to ensure that the 7 days off I've got this week remain my days off!

[normal_nigel]

I agree with the sentiments expressed about the disciplinary. For once I agree with the know-alls.

However the outpouring over IAH was a prime example of the type of non-event that drives these precious idiots.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you work for BMed?

[Sempre Volando]

Just out of interest guys but why have things become so bad T&C's wise at BA? Isnt that what your BALPA CC is for, i.e To negotiate favourable T&C's for the pilot workforce at BA, or are their hands become tied during negotiations and are you being forced to accept poorer T&C's?

Personally a rest period during a dayflight to IAH sounds bliss to me...............Gotta be much better than a delayed 2 sector night flight to Turkey with a STD of 0030L............


Any new 777/747 joiners within the last year regretting it already?

[Hand Solo]

why have things become so bad T&C's wise at BA

Management are ruthlessly screwing as much as they can out of pilots in order to achieve their own bonuses. Meanwhile they run with their tails between their legs at the first hint of a dispute with another department, hence pilots get screwed over by everyone else too (Cabin crew, bus drivers, baggage loaders, dispatchers, etc). BALPA try to stave off the worst but the management are very adept at the 'death by a thousand cuts' process, slowly stripping things away whilst not quite pushing people far enough to provoke an all out strike. BALPA seem to be overly concerned about being seen to promote anything which might constitute illegal industrial action, despite the fact that every other union in BA plays that card on a regular basis with impunity. Meanwhile BA appoint more low quality managers (some with abysmal records of failure in previous positions) whose main management techniques are threats and intimidation. We now have the ludicrous situation of the most senior pilot in BA on a disciplinary and suspended from flying for refusing to give up a weekend off and come to work. All this just weeks before his retirement! Work levels are high and rising, roster stability is rapidly disappearing, BA is rapidly becoming just another airline. Perhaps thats why they're having such a hard time recruiting they've taken to advertising in the middle and far east and the failure rates for new DEPs is at unprecedented levels.

[Sempre Volando]

Sounds like you have enough problems at BA!! And rather concerning that new DEP's are failing too, perhaps the Trident sim test isnt a good idea after all.

Hand Solo & NN - What fleet are both of you on at BA?


I don't get this force draft rule, by my understanding it basically means that at BA a Day Off isnt a gauranteed day off at roster publication as it may be altered forcibly at the company's request? WTF is that all about?

[Hand Solo]

Thats sums up force draft fairly succintly. As a junior DEP you'd be unlikely to be force drafted as you'll be working every weekend anyway, but imagine how pleased you'll be when you get your first weekend off in months and then they force draft you anyway!

[normal_nigel]

You're starting to sound like one of the 'I'm alright Jack' skippers who opposed the equalisation of co-pilot FHR because they thought it was stealing their money

Wrong. Agree with it 100%

I'm just sick of people losing sight of reality

[Harry Wragg]

I always knew that George Orwell wrote Animal Farm about life in BA, how prescient of him. I suspect some of the SH sheep at LGW are unaware how the LH pigs at LHR are living.

A lot of BA is now no different to the so called "inferior" airlines. So in anwer to the question, LH rosters, a great idea :ok:

Harry (no toddling allowed due to constant whipping from management)

[MAX]

Getting back towards the topic......

Can anyone elaborate on the 75/767 roster and lifestyle? Happy fleet, longhaul filter down to the juniors etc?

Cheers.

[What to do?]

whato chaps

Sorry to yet again take things away from the standard thread, but I have a couple of q's.

1) 56 annual leave, how come so much?

2) one weekend off in months? Do BA really only give you 4 weekends ayear off (1 a quart)? Sound a little fruity that one.

Cheers

[Hand Solo]

Not sure where NN gets his 56 days from. You'll get 4 x 7 day blocks of leave (which you cannot work in) and 2 x 7 day Duty Free Weeks, which you can choose to work in. That makes 42 days leave/holiday/call it what you will. NN may be including 'Wrap' days which are a couple of days taken either before or after each block of leave/DFW which you cannot be rostered to work on if you choose not to be. However these days are not leave as such as they attract no credit, so if you choose not to work on them you'll have to work extra hard for the rest of the month to make the credit back somewhere else. Wrap days should be considered guaranteed days off rather than paid holiday.

As for 4 weekends per year, that is very possible if you are junior. I know junior skippers on the Airbus who have not been rostered a weekend off outside leave for almost a year. Seniority is everything, and if you're junior then weekend working every weekend every month is a distinct possibility.

The 757/767 seems to be a very popular fleet at the moment. For commands this year it was the second most senior fleet in the company after the 744. Workloads seem to be manageable and even junior pilots seem to get the occasional long haul trip. Seems like a nice place to be.

[TopBunk]

Hand Solo

If you really know what you are talking about, then try not to make small but irritating mistakes, please:

You'll get 4 x 7 day blocks of leave (which you cannot work in)

You actually get 1-7day block and 1-8day block in each of summer and winter seasons, which may be taken as above, or as a single 15 day block.

NN may be including 'Wrap' days which are a couple of days taken either before or after each block of leave/DFW which you cannot be rostered to work on if you choose not to be.

Again you get 3 'Wrap' days before/after each block of leave and 1 non-assignable day before each DFW.

There are 2 DFW per year each giving 7-days free of work (*).

Leave and DFW days accrue proportionate amounts of credit, so a 15day leave block = 50% of the due work in a 30day month.

This makes in total (2x15 days + 2x7days) 44 days of credited days off, plus 6 days surrounding leave and 2 days before DFW which are uncredited, ie 8 total.

That to me totals 52 days, admittedly not the 56 of N_N, so I'm not quite sure where that comes from.

Whatever else is wrong at BA the T&C's for leave are excellent.

(*) The DFW may be worked in at personal choice, the work can therefore be used to build up a credit surplus aka a bank, against which less work can be carried out in subsequent months.

[normal_nigel]

Top

I'm not particularly interested in credited days off, but I take your point its probably the correct way to calculate it.

I use my wraps like any other day off. They can't make me work and as far as I'm concerned its time off.

I always split my leave so

Winter
8 day block +3 (11)
7 day block +3 (10)
1 DFW 7

28 total.

Summer

Same

I make that 56 days. Add the 2 non contactable before a DFW (is that correct, not sure?) and that gets me 58 days "leave". I certainly take it as so.

Am I off the mark?

NN

[GS-Alpha]

When you first start you will be on blind lines anyway, so you will be CAP protected, with nothing in your bank to be taken if you do not waive your wrap days around leave.

To the lay person, this means that you will have the leave as described by Normal_Nigel, and there will be no financial penalty or particular necessity to work extra hard in the rest of the month.

[What to do?]

Cheers

I’d be more bothered about the 3-4 weekends off a year to be honest! The leave undoubtedly makes it a little less cheeky though . . . What about the right to bid for trips? Do they pull out some SS gloves and give newbies a slap around the chops at the mere suggestion? How long til you get more bidding power (that's how it works in BA yes?)?

later

[Human Factor]

NN,

At the risk of sounding picky, I thought it was two WR days around a 7 day leave block. The NA day before a DFW is correct in that you can't be allocated a trip although you can be returned from a trip on that day. That gives you your total of 56 days per year.

As has been mentioned though, the Wrap Days and the Non-Assignable day attract no credit, so can effect the way you bid.

[normal_nigel]

HF

Always 3 days per leave block isn't it?

NN

[Human Factor]

NN,

Apologies, you're correct. I was thinking of a previous life....:uhoh:

HF

[What to do?]

Hi

This is getting silly. So breaks are random and no weekends? I really don't want to hear that BA's lifestyle is worse than the cash saving flying harp? I'm just going to run a bath and look for my razor blades.

So Long

[TopBunk]

N_N

I forgot to multiply by 2 for the wrap days in each season, so add 6 to my 52 to get your 58, agreed (or 56 if you choose to ignore the non assignable days before DFW).

Why you would wish to ignore them is another matter - whilst you cannot clash work using them (unlike wrap days) they can be useful, as can bidding for a sim check to start on a Monday, which gives you a protected, non operational, guaranteed day off on the Sunday before the simulator - another way of engineering another weekend day off. By requesting a 'late' sim detail, it effectively totally frees up the Sunday, and indeed that day can then be used for clashing work off the Saturday. With 2 sim checks per year you can achieve another 2 weekands (well at least Sundays) off each year.

I reckon that with prudent bidding, even the most junior person can achieve about 10 weekends off a year.

[Not trying to score points, just trying to give accurate information to potential colleagues]

[Crowsnest]

Reality check:

This sounds like a living nightmare. Have already lost track of all the TLAs.

As a potential DEP this thread makes me want to cancel my Assessment; it does, however, explain the stringent interview process.

I now understand that the aptitude required to determine November's sub-standard button production is the self same skill which will help me interpret my roster.

On the bright side, you are obviously so confident in your operational ability that you allow Corporate Politics to take centre stage on this forum.

My only question: can any of you honestly say you are working to live rather than living to work?

'Nestor

[normal_nigel]

TB

I wasn't ignoring them, I just forgot about them!

NN