View Full Version : spitfire
abfgh
12th Sep 2005, 19:07
Read an articel in the Sunday Mail, I guy in Florida wants to buy as many as possible and have them flying again. Looks like everybody wants one, so why not build full scale replicas?
treadigraph
12th Sep 2005, 19:48
I believe that John Muszala of Pacific Fighters has recently flown a brand new P-51B, and a two seater to boot (a field mod to give top Brass rides I think). So it can be done.
In fact wasn't one of the Charles Church/Dick Melton Spitfires at Micheldever effectivley brand new - though it did have an i/d based around the firewall or something but, then, how much of any Spitfire restoration is original? This particular airframe pulled together the best of several marks, but was effectively a MkV or IX I think.
Conan the Librarian
12th Sep 2005, 21:31
Wasn't a production run set up a few years ago for the Yak 9 or 11? Must be a bit tricky getting a powerful inline Piston engine these days though... Just thinking further, didn't the Cavalier company build (or rebuild) Mustangs with a RR Dart shoved up front? I think this evolved into the Piper PA-48 (?) Enforcer, so who knows, maybe the Spit might be in with a chance after all.
Conan
Yep, all in favour of that. Now if someone will just build a Stuka (imagine that at an airshow), Me 110, Stirling, Hampden, Ju88, Typhoon, Ta 152, Halifax, Beaufighter (I know), Do17, Fw Condor, Stormovik......the list goes on and on and every single one would be brilliant. Without wishing to ruffle any feathers don't we have enough Spits (apart from XIVs and XVIIIs of which there can never be enough)? What about all the others? You could make a mint with a Stuka (unless some scumridden lawyer cottoned on to the PTSD potential that is) so why not?
P.S wine at perfect temperature tonight ;)
treadigraph
13th Sep 2005, 07:04
(apart from XIVs and XVIIIs of which there can never be enough)?
Low back ones of course, and preferably unclipped! :ok:
Conan, regarding the Yak repros, I think they were all re-engineered Yak 11s - certainly the TFC and OFMC examples at Duxford went that route. They all have Allison V-1760s (or whatever), except for the radial ones which have God knows what up front.
Incidently, what's happening with the Duxofrd ones - are thewy still there, will they ever fly?
Treadigraph, yes MUST be low back and clipping Spitfire wings, along with fitting Merlins to Me 109s, will become a capital offence when I come to power :E .
abfgh
13th Sep 2005, 09:26
I was thinking of a production line Spitfire. Many kits are available also drawings for replicas. The chance of finding 'new ones' somewhere in the world is very slim. I am sure there is a market out there for a few hundred. I can only think of getting / producing the right engine or insurance would be the real problem. I guess running a vintage Spitfire is not cheap..
treadigraph
13th Sep 2005, 12:00
Well there is the Spitfire Mk26 kit, but nice aeroplane though it may be, it doesn't have the Sp(ir)it of the real thing if you ask me.
A reproduction built the same way as the original and with a Merlin or Griffon up front - mmmmm!
Now what and who? Memory tells me that someone built a reproduction of a vintage/veteran aircraft a decade or two ago, which was viewed by the original designer - he was so impressed with the work he told the builder to give it the next construction number after the last his company had built!
Conan, there was a Dart powered P-51D in Oz - VH-UFO. Never flew as such I believe and is now being restored with a Merlin.
Brooklands
13th Sep 2005, 16:40
Treaders,
Memory tells me that someone built a reproduction of a vintage/veteran aircraft a decade or two ago, which was viewed by the original designer - he was so impressed with the work he told the builder to give it the next construction number after the last his company had built
It was the Northern Aeroplane Workshop with their Sopwith Triplane, which is now flying with the Shuttleworth Colletion.
Brooklands
newswatcher
13th Sep 2005, 16:50
The article referred to by abfgh suggested that, as well as about 50 Spitfires that are airworthy, there may be at least another 50 which could be brought up to that standard. Now there's a thought!
Conan the Librarian
13th Sep 2005, 22:50
I did see a re pro/homebuilt/whatever, but not original - do some sort of groundloop about ten or eleven years ago. Have always wondered since, how it was created etc.etc. (Wroughton 1994? Have a nasty habit of being present when things happen)
Conan
treadigraph
14th Sep 2005, 07:16
That would have been Clive de Cros's replica of the protoype - still around but not flying any more - it was at Legends last year on a Jaguar stand - was it Jaguar powered.
Don't think I ever saw it airborne....
I tihnk there are sopmething over 200 survivors - potentially I guess they could all fly!
Cheers Brooklands, that sounds like the one! Presumably it was Tommy Sopwith then?
IIRC there is a company in Germany building new FW190s from original plans...
Human Factor
16th Sep 2005, 09:19
HERE, in fact..... (http://www.flugwerk.com/)
Weel there will be an Me262 replica flying in Germany around the end of the year: Stormbirds (http://www.stormbirds.com/project/general/updates.htm)
TEST FLIGHTS COMPLETED We've been quietly flying the test program hours off of the Tango-Tango airplane, and are pleased to report that as of today, the last hour of FAA required flight test time was logged, paving the way for Tango-Tango for move ahead to the delivery phase. We are declaring our flight tests complete!
The airplane will now be disassembled and prepared for shipment on the Delivery Flight of a Cargolux 747 in October 2005.
The next flight of Tango-Tango will be in Munich, Germany piloted by Horst Philippe of the Messerschmitt Foundation flying team. More news to follow as these events unfold.
20th August
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/images/TT-Gear-Up.jpg
ozplane
16th Sep 2005, 16:00
Treadi, the OFMC Yak replica (?) has I believe flown in New Zealand. We are unlikely to see it in the UK as the CAA (allegedly) are not in tune with the NZ CAA, hence the return of the P-40 and Corsair to NZ.
Kolibear
17th Sep 2005, 20:09
Isn't the problem that of certification?
If you built a replica, then it has to be certificated to 2005 standards, but if you rebuild an aircraft, then it is certified to the original requirements?
Woomera
19th Sep 2005, 03:06
Whispers tell me there are two Spitfires, both capable of being restored to flying condition with enough money, located at a training establishment at Brisbane Airport, Australia.
abfgh
19th Sep 2005, 07:57
Woomera, there was a rumour a few years back that their might be many Spitfires hidden somewhere in the Brisbane area. Where else in the world would you go to find one? Russia, Syria , Burma....
Chimbu chuckles
24th Sep 2005, 02:05
Woomera I have seen a Spitfire (in bits) in the Hawker Pacific hangar at YBAF...looked to be in good condition...certainly a potential flyer. Saw bits of at least one, possibly two, Spits in a hangar on the Isle of Wight several days ago. One fuselage in a jig and several wings...one of which had a note on it that it had been found in Russia..while intact it had obviously been 'laying around' somewhere remote for a very long time.
In terms of 'new' spits? They are already being produced at Duxford as well as other locations. The % of original bits in 'restored' spitfires is so small that essentially most flyers are new build.
Opssys
24th Sep 2005, 11:23
I've been following this thread with considerable interest.
When major restoration projects are being undertaken, where is the regulatory dividing line between restoration and replication. Some Aircraft have such major work carried out on them every decade they are effectively being re-restored and each time major structural items are replaced. So over time the result is a lot more sophisticated version of my Grandfather's Axe:
This is my Grandfather's Axe handed down to me.
My father replaced the Handle
I've replaced the Blade.
But it is still my Gandfather's Axe.
So if the CAA certified Axes, should the Axe conform to 2005 Regulations, or 1930's regulations?
Sorry but so many 'basket case' wrecks have been restored over the last decade, I just wonder where the CAA draw the line?
Rambling over.
DIH
rubbersidedown
25th Sep 2005, 21:21
There's no mystery where the line goes. Legally, everything but the data plate with the construction number are spare parts, and can be replaced without making the aircraft another individual!!
This sometimes can give confusions in listings of warbirds. Example, on august 13, 1998, a SNJ-5C crashed :( near Winlock, Washington, in USA. This was officially the american built 41-16621 in all paperwork, BUT, the entire airplane was in fact a canadian built Harvard IIb, with the real id being 42-12318, formely FE 831 with RCAF, and 16010 with the Swedish Air Force!
So why did it crash as a SNJ-5:confused:? Well, canadian built Harvards have never been certified for commercial flying in US. They are legal for private flying only. Only reason is that no one have tried to certify a canadian Harvard IIb yet. Who ever does it will have no problems doing it, but will have to pay the initial cost to FAA. All the following aircraft will be for free. This aircraft came from a museum in Sweden. The new owner had plans to do some commercial flying in USA, only to discover the truth about canadian Harvards. So somewhere he found a data plate for a SNJ-5. By legal terms, he did not switch the data plate in the airplane, he simply put a lot of spare parts around the new data plate!! Perfectly legal:ok:! I've seen this done with other airplanes as well.
CAA or FAA doesn't matter. The rules are the same!
Opssys
26th Sep 2005, 08:34
Rubbersidedown.
Many thanks for the comprehensive reply.
So now all I need is the Data Plates from:
A Short Sealand, a DH Albatross and about a dozen other supposedly extinct aircraft.
Plus someone with a an incredible amount of money!
DIH
treadigraph
26th Sep 2005, 12:20
Ah Opssys, another lover of the Sealand. There's one surviving at a museum in Ireland (less wings) and there was one in Yugoslavia somewhere as well, though whether it survived the fighting over there...
Back to dataplates...
Remember The Tiger Club's celebrated "oldest DH-82A" G-ACDC. I believe all the wings, the tail and the fuselage were replaced by Rollasons at one time or another - it suffered a number of serious accidents in the 1960s, worst of which saw the old heap, er, dear, rolled practically into a ball by Neville Browning during a crazy flying mishap! And yet it flies one today - the very personification of Grand-dad's axe!
I think that so long as the provenance of the rebuilds doesn't try to pass them off as 100% original and details the rebuild (and I think those doen by Historic Flying, the IOW team, etc, are well documented in how much has been done) then there should be no problem. For me the chance to see several dozen of these beauties in the air at once is spine tingling indeed!
Cheers
Treadders
(PS can I have a go in the Sealand when you get one flying Opssys?) :)
PPRuNe Pop
26th Sep 2005, 12:42
Tis true treadders.
It has crashed more times than my computer. It has been rebuilt many times - one from a spin!
But...................I think its because of its reg - ACDC - it just didn't know what it was. Very queer that!
Oh, and I have 250hrs on it!
Lowtimer
26th Sep 2005, 14:10
Opssys - Yes, that's about right. But you also have to consider the engines, as they are separate entities with their own data plates and logbooks. If your desired wonderplane uses an engine which is generally available, e.g. Merlin, R-2800, Allison, R-1830, then you can go and buy them. If it needs a pair of Vultures or a Napier Sabre then you are going to find it a lot harder.
Pop., Treaders, I've been told that the tailplane spar on ACDC is original. I imagine that's all, apart from the data plate, of course.
treadigraph
26th Sep 2005, 14:47
Indeed PPPop, sometimes when it - it? She! - was a Pussycat she was Tigress Moth. And presumably fluttered somehting, but onloy in the presribed manner!
Lowtimer, I heard it was a wheelcover!
Wasn't there also a plan at one time to build new Merlin cores in Central Europe somewhere ?
Opssys
26th Sep 2005, 15:05
Treadigraph.
Hmm Tiger Club, at my age that means Redhil Aerodrome (as a young spotty spotter, later a less spotty and motorcycling spotter) and the brooding presence of the Bristow HQ.
Rollasons rebuilds of anything Mothy, plus Turbulents and Condors.
Back to Tiger Moths - I have strange belief that Tiger Moths are like the mythical phoenix, no matter the level of destruction, eventually they are reborn.
Shorts Sealand made at the wrong time, but what a lovely aeroplane.
Lowtimer.
Yes I forgot that obtaining original engines would be a major problem and I guess substitution of a modern equivalent would involve a full certification..
Oh Well, this thread has come a long way from where it started,
so it's time for a Pipe of Tobbaco and a daydream about the Shorts Sandringham :-)
DIH
DB6 said "Yep, all in favour of that. Now if someone will just build a Stuka (imagine that at an airshow),..."
like this http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20971&highlight=replica+Stuka