Secondary Duties???????

[akula]

Hi,
This question is aimed at those of you who sit on promotion boards or know the inner dealings of how the board concludes its business. We all know that to get promoted in the NCA world the candidate needs to be eligible in the purely military sense and show some additional qualities, we also know that to get that promotion you need to have some "high profile" secondary duties.
So the question is, what does the board consider to be high profile? How would the board look at a candidate who only had a sec duty that helped the community ie. gave one night a week to the local meals on wheels office or to the cub scouts?
Thanks in advance for any response :ok: :ok:

[QuidProQuo]

Things have moved on a bit from the focus just being on military secondary duties. Reprting officers (and hence promotion boards) should comment on extra-curricular activities. So, if you are active in the local community, running a scout group, doing voluntary work or the like, it can (and should) be commented on. Personally, I think there is more merit in helping a local community than running the Sqn tea bar. In general terms, military people are well looked after - many people in towns and villages are not so fortunate. Bottom line is that "community" activities should be commented on.

[Grum Peace Odd]

Points to be aware of:

1. Promotion boards only give credit for activities they know about. So, if you're doing meals on wheels etc, make sure that your reporting chain are aware of it throughout the year and include it in your OJAR. The more of your time you spend on an activity, the more you should expect to see it highlighted in the report.

2. If all you can demonstrate is 1 evening a week, be certain that there are plenty of others on your promotion board doing a helluva lot more and so getting their extra-curricula work highlighted more strongly.

3. Secondary duties aren't what get you promoted, it's just the factor that puts the top of the board in a particular running order, because you have to use something to differentiate between 2 very good workers who are neck and neck professionally (or, to be accurate, appear to be neck and neck based on their reports). I have sat on boards where we have only had 1 slot to fill and something had to decide the order between 4 excellent candidates, all of whom appeared to be god's gift at work. (As an aside: 1 got bumped down because of a single 'not glowing' comment from his 3rd RO; 1 was dropped because although they had spec recs, and had done so for 3 years since promotion, we got the gut feeling from the 1st RO's narrative, that the subject was living on past glory and only got a spec rec because they got one the previous year; and we could have tossed a coin between the final 2, deciding on the 'winner' because their 3rd RO had used a phrase along the lines of 'best I have seen in 34 years of service' whereas the other's said 'the best I have seen.' Harsh, but the board has to make a decision somehow. Incidentally, a bloke with shed loads of secondary duties didn't get placed in the top 5 as the report didn't extol his virtues at work sufficiently.)

4. Boards don't care what you do out of work as long as you are showing some dedication, a willingness to take additional responsibility and don't just sit around watching the telly all the time. Almost any activity can show those qualities.

Added for Tigermate:

The time varies depending on the board and the place you come on the board. The first people to be read are done slowly as the board 'finds its feet' and will be looked at again at the end to make sure that the same yardstick has been applied throughout. Smaller boards get longer readings per person than larger ones. On average, each candidate probably gets 5-10 minutes (remember that not everyone of all grades get read).

[Arm out the window]

Crikey...check your priorities and get a grip.
How important is it to you to be promoted? It seems that you're trying to second-guess the system and give yourself that 1 percent advantage over your peers; good luck to you if that's your goal, but it sounds far too wanky to me I'm afraid.

[getsometimein]

Secondary duties will get you promoted, in the sense that 2 people who are at the top of their game will eventually get graded on their extra curricular activites, it stands to reason.

[Talking Radalt]

Agree with the bit about "the candadate needs to be eligible in the purely military sense and show some additional qualities", trouble is, too many people now get things all ar$e about face and concentrate on running the scout pack first and actually being a good aviator/SNCO/leader of men etc comes a poor second.....but hey, what a great scout camp they had this year!
Frankly, I like my own time to be just that, and can't be ar$ed trying to impress others with what I did at the weekend, life's too short. :hmm:
Some of my hobbies involve me in other social groups beyond the military, but to think I partake just to get Brownie points insults all those friends I have in said outside circles

[Role1a]

The whole system was set up pre expeditionary RAF, it is geared to the 9-5ers who can do all the additional cr?p to get promoted.

The guys (and gals) who are away 6-8 months of the year on deployment do not get the chance to do the meals on wheels or scouts etc.

In my opinion the best way for NCA to get on the promotion ladder is to go down the instructional route as a lot of Sqn PICs are instructor posts.

The ground crew has the same problem, much more likely to get promoted on a MU than a Sqn

R1a

[Pontius Navigator]

Select and maintain your aim. If you are aiming at the stars remember you need to get your ticket punched.

If you want to fly, well, what the heck, fly and sod the secondary duties.

A few years ago the USAF stars rarely exceed 2 000 hours by the time they got their first star.

In the UK, Craig, as a wg cdr, aimed at 1 000 hours in 2 years. Didn't quite make it and hours hunting didn't hurt him though.

[FJJP]

I know of one CAS who boasted the grand total of 1500 hours - operational stuff on Lightnings. Never saw another type, but fast tracked through the junior and senior ranks before hitting the perfect air rank route...

And watch closely the career of AVM D.W. - he's headed upstairs rapidly!

[Vage Rot]

Secondary duties?????

|Bollocks to that!

pardon the french!

On my crew, several of the guys have spent more than 19 months away out of the last 30. Where is the time for secondary duties there?

Are we now promoting pen pushing blunties??? or do we give credit to the blokes that do the job????

No differnece to me - PAS. But it grips my ring to think guys get promoted on the last ladies tea party when guys spend half their time fighting a war.


rant ends

[Role1a]

VR

Well Said

R1a

[Talking Radalt]

Are we now promoting pen pushing blunties??? or do we give credit to the blokes that do the job????

One: Yes, Two: Rarely :(

By the way, have you seen the new Sqn photo board? ;)

[BEagle]

One of my ex-UAS students who had been Wokka-ing his way through every single one of Bliar's various wars of recent years was told that he was "too operationally focused" to be picked up for promotion.....

Says it all really. Oi/c Officers' Mess Summer Ball or ProjO for a cr@p OM phone system would no doubt have given him the 'broader outlook' which the promotion boards like?

:mad:

I was once congratulated by the then AOC personally (at an AT/AAR symposium) for my ACR. Nice chap. Didn't help though - I needed another 2 consecutive SRs before getting promotion to SA Sqn Ldr....

[Charlie Luncher]

Dude
Charity work think poor helpless kiddies or the like, not forgetting the olduns such as beags, fishing his soggy digestive out of his morning cuppa is sure to move you on.
Believe running a scout troop is only good if you introduce senior officers to the young boys. :ok: :E.
My final option is to pay out the imprest when pissed keep no records and claim you were robbed- worked before:ooh:
Charlie sends

[DaveyBoy]

akula: there was a "report" from the NCA promotion board going around the Green and Gold Sqn a few weeks ago. It contained a couple of A4 pages' worth of the Board's thoughts on both the reports and the candidates they've looked at in the last year, and the closest you'll get to "tips" from them (eg, one big secondary duty is better than lots of little ones, ROs with a grasp of the English Language help, etc).

I reckon it's worth trying to chase up. Grab me in work or PM me if you need help finding it.

d

[pr00ne]

"...was told that he was "too operationally focused" to be picked up for promotion....."


That is the most crass and shaming statement that I have ever seen on Pprune, if that is the case then I am afraid it's over, the lunatics HAVE taken over the asylum, the cart is well before the horse, the world has been turned upside down and the RAF of old I knew is dead and buried.

Perhaps we should burn the remains, encase them in a small ern and play some form of sport for them on an annual basis?


Too operationaly focussed to be picked for promotion? I really HAVE heard it all now, retiring to weep quietly in a corner............

[An Teallach]

Had a similar one from an out-of-Province thick as mince 1st RO from my time in NI:

"... admirable qualities in Bosnia, but not in a peacetime appointment." :confused: Got a commendation from the GOC NI for the same reporting period.

confused.com

[Melchett01]

Hmmm yes I seem to remember being told something about secondary duties back at Cranditz and how being OIC Knitting and Macramy will make me a more rounded person and therefore more promotable.

I have just come back from my 3rd jolly to the sandpit in 2 years and will no doubt be expected to go off on god knows how many pointless exercises as well as more time on ops which I don't mind. When I am actually at home, I am currently doing my job plus 2 other peoples' - well one which is also covering a post which will never be filled, so effectively 3 as they all come banging on my door. Where the :mad: do I find time for secondary duties??????? What does the system want - the world's best knitted scarf in RAF colours or me to do my job????? I do my bit on sqn, but I don't have time to build a new hospital single handedly or organise a charity exped to Outer Mongolia on behalf of the retired chisselers association.

What's the betting that when the board sits, all they can talk about is how nice a scarf would be come winter :\ Hurrumph

[SASless]

The concept is known as "Career Corporals"....there is a kind of guy that is exceptional at his war fighting job....fights wars...get the job done that he is assigned...does it well...and on time...and never gets promoted to his true and just deserves.....because then he would not be around to accomplish what needs to be done.

The pencil pushing...stroke the boss....kiss ass who does the Boy Scout thing not for doing good deeds for the young ones...but merely for the brownie points it brings him...are the drones that get promoted.

War fighters always get the short end of the stick....in a peace time military.:{

[Two's in]

Melchett01 - You have hit the nail on the head, but unfortunately it is your true namesakes (their Airships) who make the promotion game what it is. You see in their world, real Gentleman don't have careers or skills, they merely command those that do. So when Bloggs demonstrates a penchant for organising Polo matches or fiddling with Boy Scouts (despite the fact he couldn't find his arse in the dark with both hands) He clearly has the edge over some bright thing whose only ability appears to be to fly more operational NVG hours in the sandbox than his boss has total time, or has let his 3 tours of 'stan in the last 12 months get in the way of supporting Mess activities.

The powers that be reinforce their own jaded view of the service, because blow me down, the bugger$ who get the recognition then begin to believe that extra curricular activities are the key to success, and soon become the people making these decisions for other people, thus perpetuating this attitude. You should try the Army, and a couple of hundred years of inbreeding at senior levels if you think the Air Force has it bad.

[Fourfans]

"It's amazing what can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit".

[SASless]

Adding to the fire....during Vietnam...a flying intensive exercise in futility....the US Army had the exact same attitude about secondary duties for Warrant Officers even. Never mind you were the Unit Standardization Instructor Pilot, flying training sorties in addition to a full slot on the the ops board....one had to have a secondary duty....to the extent extra duties were invented in order to provide you that opportunity to excel.

Don't get me started on other aspects of the brain dead being in charge....like "Zero Defects".....or "Scripted Exercises"....or does the RAF and British Army still embrace those concepts too?

At least the US Army finally went to free flow training....where events are played out as they happen....and one side loses....and it can be either side....and not done by script.

[plebby 1st tourist]

There is another side to the secondary duties debate. Although I'm a shift worker I can't pretend I'm out of the country a lot or even that I work very long hours, but I didn't join up to manage the station ladies underwater basket weaving society or to bray and harrumph about mess flowerbeds in various commitee meetings.

I volunteer for dets whenever I can because I joined up for a bit of adventure. I would cheerfully work another hour or two on every shift if it meant I never had to wade through all the secondary drivel.
This attitude won't get me promoted but I'd rather be an eternal Flight Lewy who was good at his job than a Squabbling Bleeder who'd greased his way up.

Rant over. ;)

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Many moons ago I wangled a job overseas where I found the workload was ridiculous. What made it worse was that my counterparts elsewhere were over-manned and under-worked. One got an MBE for charity work during his tour and when another det was reduced in size the biggest complaint was that there would be no-one to teach soccer in the local school! Needless to say they were promoted.

The most important thing is to be your own person and do what makes you happy. If the fallout of that is that you don't get promoted, well so be it. If you want a relatively secure job until you are 55 then play the game. The choice is yours. If you don't like it then leave and start a new life. You'll find the ones that have the courage to leave are the ones that will succeed.

[QuidProQuo]

Being too busy doing the day job to allow you to do any secondary duties is, apparently, also, OK. But your ROs must say this in your F6000/OJAR - something along the lines of "Bloggs is in a high pressure post which involves significant time away from base on ops/staff visits/liaision etc and consequently has had little opportunity to take on a meaningful secondary duty." I've been in jobs where I was constantly away and my ROs put this in and it seems to have done the trick.

[SRENNAPS]

I knew two sooty Cpl's in Germany. Approx same age and approx same seniority. When it came down to primary duties they were both identical in every respect - superb sooties. One was married to a serving member with no children (loads of money!!). One was married to a mother with two daughters aged 4 and 6. One did loads of high profile secondary duties - normally with his RAF wife doing simular secondary duties. One devoted his limited time (he was on a Sqn so spent quite a bit of time away) devoted to his two daughters.
One was given a spec rec - because of his sec duties, one was given a high rec - cause he had no sec duties. Guess who got promoted.
Would anybody like to try and tell me that this is right????

[The Real Slim Shady]

Many moons ago I sat on a Cpl to Sgt promotion board for A Tech A and A Tech P as well as Super techs with both annotations.

I remember vividly one particular guy who spent his spare time flying; started off with gliding and had moved to fixed wing when he could afford it. My opinion was "Promote him". The 2 blunties wanted to know why. Answer - "This is the Royal AIR Force, not ground force".

He got his promotion.

[JessTheDog]

As a 1st and 2nd RO, I found that the F6000 gave far too much weight to secondary duties compared with the OJAR system. The F7500 had the box 11 which asked for details on extra curricular activities and this no longer exists on the OJAR - the F6000 system should also be replaced.

I encountered a lot of resentment towards the chain of command from the SNCOs at my last unit, because there was a bias towards secondary duties. The only way to get promoted was to get a spec rec, the only way to get a spec rec was to undertake numerous secondary duties, the SNCOs on det had limited scope to get these and felt (correctly) that they were unfairly penalised.

One further thought is that the cuts in numbers will mean that it will be harder to maintain secondary duties, particularly with the OOA focus (although that is unlikely to survive the Iraq debacle when it finally goes t!ts up) and the culture of extensive secondary duties may fall by the wayside. These duties are of benefit to the unit and individual but overemphasising them causes resentment and bad feeling that is perhaps disproportionate to the benefits gained.

[SASless]

In case you have not figured it out yet...the military is full of politicians...war fighters will always be second class citizens to the politicians.

That gets back to my concept of having two militaries...one all spit and polish...pretty uniforms for parades...everything all clean and neat...and the real bunch...never parade...muddy boots...immaculate well used weapons...no bovine fecal matter lifestyle...who fight and win wars.

[Scud-U-Like]

I'm always a bit suspicious of people who do charity/voluntary work and feel the need to let others know about it. Is setting up a direct debit to Oxfam any less worthy than sitting in a bath full of baked beans? The former may benefit the charity more than the latter, but it's the latter that will probably get a mention on an ACR.

I've never had a substantial 'external' secondary duty, during my entire 20 years in the Service and my promotion has progressed at what might be considered a good pace. I think I do my job well, but I consider my down time my own. No one on their death bed ever said, "I just wish I hadn't missed that promotion".

Edited to add:.....with the possible exception of Lady Jane Grey

[southside]

Ive had the honour (hmmm) to sit on the selection board for some Navy chaps (and chappess's) and can honestly say that secondary duties didn't get a look in. We wouldn't be bothered if you spent your spare time dishing out meals on wheels. What we were looking for was "potential" in the next higher rank.

You could have had a shed load of secondary duties and been president of the local freemasons BUT if we thought you would have been crap in the next higher rate you wouldnt have got a look in.