View Full Version : OzJet Start Date Keeps Slipping

VH-Cheer Up
11th Sep 2005, 02:42
Article in SMH says OzJet might not get up until early next year (denied by the CEO, of course)


Are CASA going to get really, really, maybe overly careful following the recent rash of unscheduled contacts with ground experienced by older 737-200?

Is a 30-31 year old aircraft really a problem, if it's properly maintained?

Is the "age of the aircraft" now a key differentiator between OzJet, VB and QF? Is that a reason for QF upgrading all its old 737-400's to NG?

This wouldn't be getting political, would it?

Can't help feeling if VB just formulated a properly competitive business-targeted product they could head off OzJet at the pass.

OK, so now shoot me down...


11th Sep 2005, 03:48
Why would anyone be surprised about that revelation ?

OzJet chief executive Hans van Pelt insisted the airline still planned to start selling tickets by early October after gaining permission to launch services.

I wouldn't buy tickets on any airline that hasn't rolled a wheel.

Buster Hyman
11th Sep 2005, 09:29
What is the percentage of those 30-31 year old aircraft that have "collided" compared with those still serviceable? I think I'd be more concerned with public perception of the airworthiness of these craft, rather than CASA's "informed" opinion...if I was Ozjet.

11th Sep 2005, 22:54
My belief is that Mr Stoddart has woefully misread the market.

No loyalty scheme, affiliation, constant delays and base changes, lies about having already sold tickets (name 1 person Mr Pelt), 30+ year old aircraft etc etc etc.

One or two maybe, but when added up this doesnt bode well.

Besides, with so few aircraft all you need is one breakdown and the whole day's schedule ist kapputt!!!

11th Sep 2005, 23:52
I would have to agree, Timmeeee. Let's not forget though, he is a business man. Therefore, he is the one who will end up with egg on his face if Ozjet fails. But he is an honest man of good repute.

In any race, he knows he can also be the loser. He is prepared to face that, and so must the pit crew. However, the consequence of his ambitous foray into the golden triangle (Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane) may not yet be realised by him. Fear nothing and you could risk losing everything because of your blindness. Plan wisely and there can be room for everybody.

His reputation presents the industry with a dilemma because he has endorsed the need for such a product over and above the behaviour of the existing markets (in terms of demand and supply of a pure business product in a medium price range) and in doing so is urging the market to take advantage of it. It is this fundamental supposed misconception of the market which may be identified by Qantas and Virgin Blue (and to some degree Jetstar) as being a major threat to them. Accordingly they will position themselves to protect their market share in the event the concept gains momentum.

The frequency with which Ozjet wants to operate will compete very strongly with Qantas' City Flyer and this product is well positioned to meet the Ozjet services head on. Sustained and proactive marketing would result in Ozjet failing to secure sufficient revenue to meet its marketing objectives. These are indicators not un-typical of the Reid and Gray eras. The capacity that Ozjet is proposing to dump into Melbourne -Sydney is there in the long term to be taken but one needs to understand that the growth and uptake is not unilateral.

Whilst there may be sufficient entrainment of Qantas and Virgin defectors with the sweeteners currently on offer, it is my considered view they are not sustainable and this can result in yet another Compass style fall out. If that happens we could see further strenthening of Ozjet rivals in the market with coincident barriers to new entrants for several years to come. This is not too disimilar to what happened in the US and Europe.

On a scale of (Lowest Risk of Failure) 1-10 (Highest Risk of Failure), I would rate (in my opinion) Ozjet on about 8 or 9. This is based largely on my perception that any risk to Qantas would be largely defended, the company has openly announced that it is still developing its marketing plan (and therefore has not had the time to research it well enough) and that the market is bearish about the product.

12th Sep 2005, 03:12
I think you'll find Mr Stoddart just sold his F1 team for a pretty penny. Before the race last night, he said that he was now focused on OzJet... He's taking it seriously.

Now whether or not he's read the market correctly is another question entirely.

12th Sep 2005, 12:56
Mr Stoddart will need to make the biggest decision of his life. Whether to support Ozjet with that money or to keep it to support his EAL group. If I were in his boots, I would look at focussing on the need to maintain liquidity because his assets would be revalued at much less in a bearish market.

We do not have sufficient informatiion about the tax implications of the transaction in the sale of the Minardi team but assuming there were none, I would at least start to hedge my fuel by purchasing some call options or warrants in the commodities such as Crude and Kerosene up to about USD1.75Mil (max 5%), maintain a cash reserve of at least USD20Mil (max 60%), and buy some commercial real-estate, that can be used as collateral, with the rest.

However, the pressure will bear upon Ozjet in the coming months as the unexpected delays present Ozjet with an unsustainable cashflow crisis.

Ozjet would have been much better off to have further advanced its AOC application before hiring all those people.

12th Sep 2005, 14:05
But he is an honest man of good repute.

Several hundred redundent European Airways employees who are still waitnig for their money may dis-agree...

13th Sep 2005, 00:37
Good point Wizofoz, is there anyone directly affected who could tell us more?

13th Sep 2005, 04:29
to fly its fleet of ageing 737s by the end of this month
Does anyone know of any 737s still flying that are not ageing?

13th Sep 2005, 07:03
Icarus2001, I think the journalists are using "ageing" as an adjective rather than a noun. If used as a noun it might suggest the planes are in the process of growing old gracefully and they could still be in good condition. However, the fact that "ageing" is used that way might suggest the intention is to focus on their age so tend to think its an adjective.

Yeah, but it's funny when you look at it like you have. Sort of like getting introduced to someone new and saying my name is "ageing Icarus2001" . Sounds odd doesn't it? :}

Daft Wader
13th Sep 2005, 08:35
The time for Ozjet to worry is when a Mr S Woodland is appointed to a senior position.......

The sensible thing for PGS to do is to pay off the EAAC / EAL staff what they are owed ,me included !!!!

But then when did people like him ever do the right thing ?

You ain't seen me right.....

Daft Wader


13th Sep 2005, 09:18
Wow, so pleased to hear from you Daft Wader! Tell us more, I get the feeling there is trouble brewing over this. And, I hadn't thought of it until today but the girls at the coffee shop said there was trouble brewing in the management ranks in Melbourne and some big knob is about to pull the pin on it. It was sort of said loosely and it didn't twig but now your comment seems to be melding that. Maybe their chief pilot or CEO ???

It sounds like if he has left people without their entitlements that's probably worthy of mention.

13th Sep 2005, 10:30
Wow, so pleased to hear from you Legal_Counsel! Tell us more.

What are the girls at the coffee shop saying?

And also what is your pissed boss at the pub saying?

Do tell us more oh font of all knowledge....

Mr Stoddart will need to make the biggest decision of his life.

Mate I'm glad you are so intimate with his business dealings, im sure this is small fry to him considering what he has been involved with....

13th Sep 2005, 10:44
Maybe it was in the Coffee Shop???:confused:

Oh, that's right -


Buster Hyman
13th Sep 2005, 12:25
...Is that like the one about feeding the chooks?

VH-Cheer Up
14th Sep 2005, 01:07
Time to bring this thread out of the coffee shop, monkey or no...

Does anyone know of any 737s still flying that are not ageing?
Of course not. I guess the newspaper would be sued if they wrote "clapped-out" which is clearly what they meant.

the journalists are using "ageing" as an adjective
Fair go, at least they're not "suddenly plunging in a death spiral" 737's. One hopes. Anyway, "ageing" is the present participle, whether it is being used as an adjective in this case, who knows.

What might be more to the point is that these 737's have been ageing for some considerable time now and in fact they may well be considered truly quite well aged, a bit like a steak at Vlado's. Or a dead cat on the M25.

At least they haven't had the Hawaiian Airlines conversion job done to them.

Anyone know the age of the oldest flying 737's? Are the OzJet 737's any older than those being operated by Air EnZed on domestic services?

The time for Ozjet to worry is when a Mr S Woodland is appointed to a senior position...
Huh? Care to explain?

As a pilot, should I operate a policy of not flying any aircraft that is older than I am? That might lock me out of some exciting opportunities... And the same policy would probably lock every kid out his/her local flying school, and lots of the RAAF pilots out of their Pigs, an maybe some of the other bits of ADF flying kit.

Nobody has picked up on one of my previous points - why doesn't Virgin Blue try to grab more of the business market by offering a more business-orientated product? If they did, OzJet would be pretty hammered trying to carve something out of that niche.

Or maybe they are going to - to coincide with OzJet's eventual launch?


14th Sep 2005, 01:38
Actually, good point VH-Cheer Up. I believe the reason is that most of the business market flies in the non-flexible fare zone these days and it is one of the reasons why the market will be hard to extract as a cost-effective group.

Ozjet, I think, has erred in targeting that market and Qantas will atleast defend its position. Even so Ozjet will try to take credit for changing that, but it will be short lived as its Dutch investor gets itchy feet.

The damage to Ozjet revenue will be hard to recover and typical recovery time frames for a solid campaign of just 1 month is 6 months. And the best time for Qantas to do this is right now in advance for 6 months and it will send Ozjet spiralling into debt and out of business within 12 months.

On the further note, of ageing aircraft, it is my view that provided they are correctly maintained and flown, there shouldn't be a problem. My big beef with these is that they will pollute our great city of Sydney even more than ever and I think it is time we took a stand on that.

Anyway, to be honest, if they are hiring inexperienced pilots from the regionals I wonder how long it will be before the poor safety record of general aviation creeps into Australian mainline operations. :E What do you think?

VH-Cheer Up
14th Sep 2005, 02:18
Legal Counsel:
provided they are correctly maintained and flown, there shouldn't be a problem - agreed, not a safety problem. But older aircraft, no matter how fastidiously maintained, will always be less reliable than their younger counterpart. Unreliability = timetable impact. Not what you want in a business-focused niche market.

if they are hiring inexperienced pilots from the regionals I wonder how long it will be before the poor safety record of general aviation creeps into Australian mainline operations Not sure whether that's wind-up... I'm sure they will be very careful about whom they hire, their experience level, and the level of "grey hair" on the flight deck. I understood the CP had an excellent reputation and an outstanding past career record including time with the regulator. Must admit this is one risk I just can't see OzJet taking. Am I being naive, or are you being a bit mischievous?

most of the business market flies in the non-flexible fare zone these days What are you basing that on? I'm sure there's a mix of price-takers but when your business has to be done flexibly, you're going to need to buy at least some flexible fares. Even VB's higher fares allow flexibility (in fact so do their cheaper fares, at a cost, which equates almost exactly to paying for the flexibility at the time you actually need it).

I'm not suggesting a return to the "flying pigs upfront" syndrome. Just that if a fully-flexible OW ticket MEL-SYD on VB is $240 approx, would you pay say $300 0r $350 to get a meal, a drink, and some more hip/leg space? I would.

I think half the reason a business person takes a cheap fare is because it's on offer and there's no difference in what they get for the lower price, aside from some flexibility, which they can generally buy later, at a price, if needed.

Me, I'd pay a bit more - but not a heap more - for a bit more space, service, and an airport lounge that wasn't like a Greyhound bus terminal. I think it's exactly that need that OzJet has identified, and Virgin has ignored. QF offers it at at a high price (J Class, QF Club) and offers a bit of it to everyone as an in-flight differentiator (snack/drink service).

OzJet has correctly identified the required differentiation, but looks like potentially blowing the execution with the fleet age. Or, with the 146, the fleet choice.

Virgin has just blithely missed the point of that part of the market, preferring to focus on the price. Why they bother with their stupid, ineffective and misleading "service" focused advertising, beats me.



14th Sep 2005, 02:33
Most of Australia's aircraft are old. The qantas 747 that is parked at longreach had flown over 90,000 hours.
Most of our military aircraft are as old as, the GA fleet.
Virgin has the young aeroplanes.
But the pilots are getting younger.
And the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots, not the aeroplanes.Remember the TV commercial." Young drivers are the most skilled. They are also the most killed".

3 Holer
14th Sep 2005, 02:44
Phew, that's a relief.

We've got old aircraft and old pilots in our Company !

VH-Cheer Up
14th Sep 2005, 03:07
the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots The age or the experience?

Aeroplanes don't get better by experience, they get worse.

Pilots, I hope, get better by experience.


14th Sep 2005, 03:36
Qantas, rivals in off-peak fare fight

Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
September 13, 2005

THE battle for domestic business travellers is hotting up with Qantas introducing new discount fares aimed at luring passengers to the front of the plane during off-peak periods.

News of the Qantas "D-class" business fares emerged as Ozjet confirmed it would operate eight return flights each business day between Brisbane and Melbourne when it started flying later this year.

Virgin Blue is also ramping up its efforts to lure corporate customers with new technology that allows travel agents and big accounts to link directly into its reservations system.

The new Qantas fares are being tested on several routes and mirror a strategy adopted by the airline on its international routes.

Qantas normally sells a Melbourne-Sydney business class fares for $576 and a full economy ticket for $373. The new fare will sell for $411 - less than $40 above full economy - for flights during the middle of the day, when business travel demand is at its lowest ebb.

Routes taking part in the trial are Sydney-Melbourne, Sydney-Brisbane, Adelaide-Melbourne, Adelaide-Canberra, Sydney-Canberra, Melbourne-Canberra, Melbourne-Hobart and Sydney-Hobart.

"We've selected a cross-section of business routes to trial it," said Qantas executive general manager John Borghetti.

"The intention is to, firstly, stimulate demand in the off-peak period and, secondly, to stimulate some upsell from economy.

"The other issue here, of course, is that as we've grown and upgraded our fleet - the off-peak business class services have more seats."

Mr Borghetti said Qantas was optimistic the small price gap between full economy and the new fares would prove attractive to business travellers.

Asked whether moves by Virgin Blue and Ozjet on the business travel market had influenced the decision to introduce the new fares, Mr Borghetti said: "We're busy trying to run our own airline."

Ozjet management remains optimistic it can start selling tickets by the middle of next month for a launch in late October or early November.

The airline plans to initially operate 94 flights a week on the Sydney-Melbourne run and wants to add Melbourne-Adelaide from the first week of February with Canberra and Brisbane next on its radar.

"Basically from the middle of January, we'll have one plane a month arriving," chief executive Hans van Pelt said.

Mr van Pelt said the decision of Ozjet owner Paul Stoddart to sell his Minardi Formula One racing team was unlikely to have any immediate effect on the airline.

The Minardi boss sold the team to Red Bull for a rumoured $US35 million ($45 million) but Mr van Pelt said the money to launch Ozjet was already in place.

"Certainly Paul's got a good return and, I guess, down the track we could certainly use it for something, but that's up to him," he said.

14th Sep 2005, 03:39
Most of Australia's aircraft are old. The qantas 747 that is parked at longreach had flown over 90,000 hours.
Most of our military aircraft are as old as, the GA fleet.
Virgin has the young aeroplanes.
But the pilots are getting younger.
And the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots, not the aeroplanes.Remember the TV commercial." Young drivers are the most skilled. They are also the most killed".

Those who skimp on maintenance do much better with new aircraft. For a while.

Bretag no H
14th Sep 2005, 22:16
Legal Counsel, you should get some FACT serum in that coffee you drink before implying that Ozjet pilots are inexperienced. Ozjet set minimum experience at 5000 hours and 1000 jet time for Captains and has hired people with an average of triple that. To get an interview, F/Os had at least 1500 multi and 500 turbine and again the average was about triple that. All those selected got a grilling in a Metro simulator.
Future Captains won't get a look in unless they have recent 737 command time, and the policy will be to promote from within when F/Os get the 5000 total/1000 jet. Meantime, plenty of grey hair in the cockpit, I can assure you.

14th Sep 2005, 23:46
Are we all going to gloss around like a pack of PC lezzos or is one of us finally going to say it?

Who cares how much grey hair is involved? Who cares about fleet age, types, fuel burns blah blah blah.
With Dicko flogging up and down the J curve all day, every day at times that suit every "important" business meeting; at prices that can be propped by the other 200 punters aft of the snob divider: Does anyone really think it has a chance?

Sadly loads for the first couple of weeks will comprise the fatties that have a QF grudge and can't fit in a VB seat.
"Enthusiast" types will have a crack to get a free sticker to put it on the fridge next to the Compass stickers.
The remainder will be journos, freebies, F1 fans and retirees that have just "experienced" The Ghan and now looking for a new adventure to boast about at bingo.

With close friends preparing to fly for this mob, please prove me wrong. Make me eat my words. Just please dont make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!

Best wishes to those at the coalface, I can't begin to imagine the obstacles you face.

Brother Muzzy.

Buster Hyman
15th Sep 2005, 02:26
:uhoh: .... I've got a Compass sticker!:8 :8 :8

15th Sep 2005, 07:41
Just around the corner from my apartment there are all these old phone boxes with the compass plane in a photo. :E

Enema Bandit's Dad
15th Sep 2005, 09:51
No doubt alongside Br. Muzzy's number. "For a good time ring ......."

15th Sep 2005, 09:58
Well hello Gordon, long time no seeum. :ok:

16th Sep 2005, 01:51
100% for Br. Muzzy's observation. This is exactly what will happen and as usual the gullable press will make a field day out of it. ;)

Bretag no H
16th Sep 2005, 08:15
Gidday Gaunty - good to know you are still interested in aviation.

Br.Muzzy wrote:
"Just please don't make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!" Really.

Everyone interviewed who was in gainful employment was advised to desist with their application if they were risk averse.
Some actually took this on board and did withdraw.

No promises were made. Meantime the big boy with his 'toy' is in the process of giving a bunch of turbo prop pilots a crack at their first jet at no cost to them. A whole lot better deal than what is on offer at that other (very) big boy's outfit, or even that Aussie icon's regionals.

For obvious reasons I can not enter into any further debate about the business plan etc, other than to acknowledge that only a fool would believe a start up airline would have no financial and competitive hurdles to overcome. But give the man a break - he runs a successful operation in the UK with 747s and 737s, which is more than any of us can claim to have done.

16th Sep 2005, 14:55
Whatever people say about Stoddart he was very successful and profitable with his 1-11 fleet when everyone was saying the aircraft were too old. I think you'll find there were at least as old as the 737-200s when he started operating in 1994.

It' easy to snipe and be clever when your on someone's payroll - but have you ever tried putting $20 million where your mouth is?

Beer Can Dreaming
16th Sep 2005, 23:11
True about Stoddarts previous success with the BAC 1-11, but in this case we are talking about business class passengers that both need and want to go from SYD-MEL reliably, at the same time knowing that if there is a breakdown they may get on another flight shortly.

Also what about connections elsewhere??

A seemless service when dealing with business class pax is mandatory.

16th Sep 2005, 23:27
No promises were made. .Really


17th Sep 2005, 06:36
Well, apologies for not getting on line sooner, I fell asleep at my desk after the pub Friday night. Amazing how your keyboard can be so firmly imprinted in your forehead. :mad:

Anyway, two guys and my boss from the *** newspaper were talking last night that the latest is that Ozjet cannot get its slots at Sydney and will have to reduce it's flights. And listen to this one; apparently it is going to be a major cut back to just one or two flights.

Look, Stoddart obviously knows how to make a buck but that is also the very thing that makes a person take more risks and is often their undoing. But that is not to say you are not allowed to fail. As long as you are an honest person you will always get support.

Look, take the guy who has started that Gold Airways thing, you have got to give him credit for being able to get as far as he has with little or no help, and from what I can gather, the wrath of PPRUNE's readers. However, take a leaf out of his book and you can see he that guy has brilliant capacity that only really needs money to make it work and I am sure in time he will overcome that too. There is a real leader of innovation. I don't quite have $20M dollars but if I were a punter in aviation, I would put my money on Gold Airways because from what I can see, it's a potential winner.

Even so I do feel fuzzy (possibly the effects of Elephant Beer) about Qantas' continued push with the Jetstar product. I just think they are setting the scene for more airlines to get up and challenging them. How Ozjet will fair in that environment is anyone's guess but I think it will not fair well unless it does something dramatic like run a two class service.

But while Stoddart makes money out of junk jets, (and I might add that I learnt from my boy friend that I can afford to by a second hand 737-200 - not that it is any of his business how much I have in my term deposit) he needs to have good returns to replace them. It's not unlike what ValueJet (now deceased) did in the US and it can yield good cashflows for fleet renewal. And basically you can keep doing this and run a successful operation.

Ooh must get a panadol.


Buster Hyman
17th Sep 2005, 08:31
Perhaps he should've stuck to the secondary airport plan. Moorabbin to Bankstown perhaps, obviously without 732's! Lotsa travellers in Melb's Eastern suburbs knocking on his door I imagine.

He won't get anywhere competing on a level playing field...he should've picked another field!

17th Sep 2005, 09:02
What a load of bollox.

Legal Counsel - whatever you were drinking you obviously smoked it as well. "Gold Airways is a winner" - my arse! That little pearler demonstrated to me, for the first time, that you're mainlining some crap and your brain is rottting. Exactly what detail have you seen of the idiot's plan, or is it just the high level "I'm planning to start a new domestic full service airline" that got you excited? About 6 months ago the idiot had an outline of his fleet on his website that included A350's A380's and B777's (hmm sounds awfully like my 4 year old's "one of them, one of them, one of them" grab as he sits at the airport!

And by the way, as for Stoddart;s track record. Did I miss something? Take a look at European for chrissakes. He sold out when it was on its way down the gurgler to 2 shareholders that tried unsuccessfully to stop it going bankrupt..voila back on the scene comes "Arfur Steptoe" and picks it up for a song (I agree, he's good at buying junk) telling everyone how he is going to save it - and didn't. Once again, as with Branson, check the other forums on Prune - not many supporters of "the cheeky Aussie".

Finally, with all due respect to their CP - you're an idiot mate. An out and out idiot. Just cuz u can fly 'em. does mean the punters will. Try and breath reliability into an ageing...lets be honest.. an irrelevant, out of date, past date, heap of scrap metal that is no longer welcome in the usual dumping ground of old models, the 3rd world.

You all spend so much time on this forum complaining about the deterioration of aviation but when you see a player come along that wants to exploit you, the market, and his own scrap metal yard, you ignore your gut feel and experience and say "good on ya for having a go" because you're afraid someone will chastise you for cutting down tall poppies.

Do none of you realise that a cynical exploitation of an opportunity with a half-baked solution that has maybe a 1:1000000 chance of success, for all the reasons some of you are brave enough to voice, is actually threatening what little stability you have in this aviation market. Whilst he may start this crappy model, the outcome will be failure and he will blame everyone and sundry for it, just like he did in Formula 1 (thank God he and his mobile chicanes are out of that now). In the meantime he will do further damage to an already tenuous market.

CASA and the DoT should raise the standard of acceptable aviation operations; we should not, in 2005, be introducing a 30+ year old aircraft model. Someone, somewhere should consider the risk profile of such ventures, if not in safety, then in the context of the welfare of the travelling Australian public who will have to spend many hours at airporst waiting for Stoddart's crowd to find a wigget for his dinosaurs that has to be shipped in from Addis Abbabba because no-one, not even Boeing, can remember what a 737-200 is except for Kalib, Steptoe's distant cousin, who has a house in downtown AA made from scrap metal, from, you guessed it, a crappy old vintage machine.

Alien Sex God
17th Sep 2005, 10:29
Legal Council here I was thinking you were a bloke until you mentioned your boyfriend.

Buster Hyman
17th Sep 2005, 11:20
.............Ooooh....this is one of them awkward moments......http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-056.gif

17th Sep 2005, 12:06
Yes Alien Sex God; note how he/she/it spelt "buy", or is it "by" or is it bi.........................:ugh:

18th Sep 2005, 12:08
Could still be a bloke, LC IS from Sydney afterall. Not that there's anything wrong with that?


18th Sep 2005, 22:00
BUSINESS class start-up Ozjet entered its first aircraft on the Australian register last week, but has pushed back its expected launch date to mid-November.

The airline had initially hoped to get off the ground this month, and in July delayed its launch until October.

Ozjet chief executive Hans van Pelt hailed the registration of the first aircraft, VH-OZQ, as a significant step in the airline's application to get its Australian Air Operators certificate.

"This is a tick in one of the major boxes of our application to operate as an airline,'' he said.

Ozjet officials now believe the earliest launch date for its 94 weekly Sydney-Melbourne flights will be the second week of November.

CASA says it is being thorough with the application because it wants to ensure Ozjet has the processes set up to monitor and maintain the airline's 30-year-old aircraft.

"I wanted to get up by Melbourne Cup Day (November 1), but I don't think we'll get enough sales to get there,'' said Mr van Pelt.

"That's pretty much a holiday week, and if you miss the Melbourne Cup, you might as well go after that.''

The airline also had slots lined up at its destinations and would finalise an agreement with Sydney Airport this week.

"Melbourne's locked away ... Canberra's fine, Adelaide's fine,'' he said, adding that there were ``no issues'' with Brisbane.

Ozjet is sourcing its first planes from chairman and founder Paul Stoddart's European Aviation.

Ozjet plans to provide business class service at full economy prices, and says it will have a dozen 737s in Australia by the middle of next year.

Its launch plan involves eight return flights each business day between Sydney and Melbourne; an Adelaide-Melbourne service is set to follow in February.

It will fly the aircraft with just 60 seats and says it will cut down on queuing time by allowing passengers up to three pieces of carry-on luggage.

While the start-up is concentrating on getting its 737s flying, it has also bought two BAe-146s and is about to send the first to Britain for heavy maintenance and an interior refit.

"Ideally, these two are in mind, possibly down the track, for the Canberra run,'' Mr van Pelt said.

Meanwhile, Qantas said yesterday it would put on almost 4000 extra seats to and from Perth, to cater for anticipated demand for the AFL grand final.

The airline will use a mix of Boeing 747s, 767s and 737s as well as Airbus A330s to cope with the extra demand.

The Australian - MON 19 SEP

19th Sep 2005, 01:21
Be aware that what actually appears in a press release and what might actually be done at a later date can, at times, be two different things. The guy didn't get where he is by luck and stupidity. The facts, as reported, don't make a lot of sense to me yet, but that might just be me. The intention might just be to get Qantas chasing a ghost. I'm reading all the posts and waiting for the shoe to drop somewhere that puts the ducks in a row.

19th Sep 2005, 04:27
As far as I can make out, the airline is having problems with its safety checks and has failed two inspections. I am not sure if this is referring to the AOC or the aircraft just registered. Does any one know anything?

Bretag no H
19th Sep 2005, 08:25
Yes Legal C, someone does know something, but it obviously is not your informant.

There have been no CASA inspections. They have looked at some of our training and given it the OK. Some guys even got 737-200 endorsements last week. Sorry to disappoint you.

Whatever perverted pleasure you gain from your repeated attacks on this enterprise I do not understand. Why not simply relax and see how it all plays out? I bet that's what Geoff Dixon is doing.

19th Sep 2005, 11:02
So Bretag no H, you claim no CASA inspections. So the aircraft that was just brought in on the Australian Register had no CASA Inspection and CASA isn't inspecting any qualifications, manuals or procedures either - just looking.

Cool - just another thing for the press to pick up on in due course I guess. Over to you Woomera. :O

Bretag no H
19th Sep 2005, 12:13
That's right - just looking. When we invite them out to do the Certificate of Airworthiness, that will be an inspection. When they check our infrastructure, do proving flights etc, that will be an inspection. FACTS, my friend, stick to the FACTS.

19th Sep 2005, 21:13
Hmm..well if it's currently as casual as "just a look" one wonders how the CEo can claim that the registration of this one aircraft is a "major step in the AOC process".

Now being ex-CASA even you would know the exaggeration behind that statement. Unless of coure the proposed operation is so tenuous that you guys didn't even anticipate that you would be allowed to add an aircraft to the register.

You spend your time defending the new venture whilst your CEO keeps making absurd and stupid comments on the technical process that demonstrate how inexperienced he is; each time he opens his mouth you cant complain when people challenge him on his obviously incorrect statements.

One wonders about the wisdom of starting an all business class airline at the end of November, when business is beginning to shut down for the holidays. You're right with one point - this would have to be the easiest problem for Dixon - just sit and wait, no need to do anything else.

20th Sep 2005, 01:48
So Legal_Counsel,

You are a truly connected person,

Not only do you have the gossip at the Sydney Coffee Shop and the snippits from your pissed boss at the pub, but you also have:

two guys and my boss from the *** newspaper were talking last night that the latest is

Since this post is meandering along, perhaps you could give it another kick along as that is clearly your strategy, keep these sort of topics on the boil by stirring them up now and again...

I do so enjoy the subtle little hints and innuendo as well. These little gems deserve another look!!!!!......

(and I might add that I learnt from my boy friend that I can afford to by a second hand 737-200 - not that it is any of his business how much I have in my term deposit)

I don't quite have $20M dollars but if I were a punter in aviation, I would put my money on Gold Airways because from what I can see, it's a potential winner.

Mate, you are the potential winner where can I deposit my spare cash....

20th Sep 2005, 04:52

("and I might add that I learnt from my boy friend that I can afford to by a second hand 737-200 - not that it is any of his business how much I have in my term deposit")

So legal_Council, are you a sheila or a bloke??? Not thats there anything wrong with that!!!!!!!!

20th Sep 2005, 05:43
Regardless - I just feel sorry for the Boyfriend!?

20th Sep 2005, 08:13
Ok, I must be bored but with a little research it seems Legal_Counsel really does get around, but the topic doesn't seem to change. For example some threads started recently by Legal_Counsel in D & G, Terms of Endearment and Cabin Crew:

"Analysing Ozjet, the Unofficial Financial Plan"

"Ozjet Launch Setback"

"Ozjet Effective Customers"

And some further gems:

Yeah, it does seem that way anth1980, it's possibly something that is still filtering through so maybe tomorrow we will get some more news. I don't have a court appearance tomorrow so should be able to hang around the coffee shop and meet up with some of my girfriends from the *** newspaper.
Just came back from the coffee shop and the word is out.
I thought this could a useful thing to invite our learned readers to make an objective start to analysing wannabe Ozjet Airlines' likely financial performance over the next 5 years.

And I wonder what Legal Counsel has to do with Gold Airways:

Let's get it straight. I have nothing to do with Gold Airways so it's quite unfair you associate that organisation as a scam I am perpetrating. You ought to be banned from PPRUNE forever for that remark.

And a hint as to what Legal_Counsel does:

Hi anth1980, my specialisation tends to cross company mergers and acquisitions and rural work these days. The most interesting cases are father-daughter contests where trusts were set up for the children and then properties passed to the sons. I am currently building a case in Northern NSW where a girl with two children, one without any toes, is fighting for her right to live on the farm in which she has a major interest. So sad as she has no husband to support her and her brothers are just being difficult all the way. Hope my boss isn't reading these threads.

Legal_Counsel all I want to know is what the hell do you have against Ozjet that has prompted you to wage such a continuous campaign against them?

I guess this is the last we will see from Legal_Counsel in this thread just like how you left the "Rex Recruitment" thread hanging.

Standby for a new Ozjet thread...

Enema Bandit's Dad
20th Sep 2005, 10:06
So Legal_Counsel has girlfriends and a boyfriend. Wow, am I getting confused! :ooh: Going by Legal's contributions, I can't help but wonder if there are some serious gender issues involved here. :ouch:

Alien Sex God
20th Sep 2005, 10:13
Come on Legal. Do you have an inny or an outy?

Wun Wing Lo
23rd Sep 2005, 06:01
Mmmm... sounds like the stunts he was pulling in this years Grand Prix....

Stoddart = Branson without the personality.

Even the stupid can get lucky. How much has he lost on F1. Continually leading the charge to make it more affordable and failing miserably. And for all his dedication, too hard he sold out. Now he wants to get into australian airlines.

So what if he does get those jets going. QF VB and J* will undercut until he bleeds to death. Then all we will be left with is another one of his rants about how life isnt fair.

Although I suspect the only thing he is trying to acheive is publicity. The general public probably arent even aware of his airline.

Chronic Snoozer
23rd Sep 2005, 09:09
I read somewhere he sold Minardi for $34mio. Anyone know if he made a profit?

VH-Cheer Up
5th Oct 2005, 23:09
Profit from owning a GP F1 team = just like the profits you make from ocean yacht racing?

I suspect the only profit is to the owner's personal ego.

So, to bring us back on-topic... What's the launch date for OzJet now?


5th Oct 2005, 23:59
"I wanted to get up by Melbourne Cup Day (November 1), but I don't think we'll get enough sales to get there,'' said Mr van Pelt.

That is only 3 weeks away, and they do not have the ticket sales on target.... :rolleyes:

Bit silly making it public knowledge too... ;)

Some folk in Australia should have a look at his aviation business in the UK... :mad:

6th Oct 2005, 02:14
but I don't think we'll get enough sales to get there,'' said Mr van Pelt. :confused: how do you, or how long before, assuming they get their certificate, does it take to ramp up "enough sales". And how many is enough?

They are running smack dab into the quiet (business) period and most people will by then will have their apex holiday fares (me included) locked up.

Apart from the "curious" from where are the 8 x 60 per day pax going to come?

I am also a bit disappointed that some have decided that Legal_Counsel is a Gold Airways stooge and is personally vilified as such. Here like anyone else him/her is entitled to their view and whether you agree with it or not is by the by, you are entitled to respond to the argument but not on a personal level.
If you can't get your point across without doing so then you simply don't have one.

Or are we falling into the habit of some organisations that either close their Forums or ban their members or otherwise attempt to muzzzle comment having a contrary point of view to that of the "management".

Be that as it may, what credentials do Ozjet have that Gold Airways do not. Both make noise but nether have yet struck a blow. Their may well be a difference in the backgrounds and their current state of progress, but the acid test is who actually gets going and for how long.

Economics and the operational and age issues aside I have a issue in regard to the environmental acceptability of these older types anywhere.

Stripped bare of rhetoric, Ozjets "all business class" entry into the market requires the following to work.

The use of written down to zero airframes, no longer acceptable in the UK/Europe marketplace, by either the public or the strict environmental controls, either in place or about to be.

The substitution of significantly higher fuel burns paid for by the passenger and more rapid depletion of our resources for actual capital commitment by the owner.

The acceptance by the passengers of the significantly higher (2 maybe 3 times) environmental load that their "cheap" comfort requires.

The market "rationalists" will say the passengers don't care, I'm here to tell you that the demographics and mindset of the "business" market they chase says they do.
The ones who don't will continue to buy the apex fares.

Why have the manufacturers of both airframes and engines, spent several million gazillion dollars improving their products for sheer efficiency, maintainablility, fuel consumption and noise issues and why are the aviation boneyards and third world carriers full of these old types.

Why are we now driving small engine low fuel consumption/emission , diesel cars that cost a bit new but are way cheaper to run than their guzzler forebears and if you own a SUV 4WD or big blokes V8 your prized assets are now worth a heap less than before.

My guess is the Ozjet business plan did not foresee, or ignored, the current fuel costs. Even if they did the effect on their operational costs base will be significantly higher.

May be they will have to add an extra 50 seats to compensate and then they have to fill them?????

My thoughts anyway, now the pilots who are pinning their employment hopes on one of the other can have a go at taking the above argument apart and perhaps ponder their part in it and the consequences for their children and their grandchildren.

And besides the argument that if I dont, someone else will, and this is an employment opportunity is becoming a bit threadbare don't you think.:{

Again it is not, stripped bare of the "Aussie Battler" rhetoric it's a cynical exercise in trying to turn past use by date equipment into money. It might have worked with the ex RAAF equipment exported to another more tolerant place, but this is now. Australians have a worldwide reputation for the highest uptake of modern technology, this is reflected in our airline fleet, Ansett paid the price, so whether they will wear this exercise remains to be seen.

Gordon, you will not be surprised at my attitude.:ok:

BTW if they were to announce that they were delayed because they were awaiting delivery positions on modern technology types you would have my instant attention.
No?....... I didn't think so.

VH-Cheer Up
6th Oct 2005, 02:54
Gaunty, well said sir.

Particularly noted:
The substitution of significantly higher fuel burns paid for by the passenger and more rapid depletion of our resources for actual capital commitment by the owner. I have to say, having met the man and his ilk; I believe he is pathologically opposed to investing capital in new equipment. So opposed is he, I believe even admit he would that. He thinks the clever part of this whole business venture is taking an aircraft someone would have disposed of for under GBP1M - or would even have scrapped - and turning it into some kind of money making device.

No matter what the threat to the environment, safety, or schedule.

On the face of it - it sounds clever. Long term, it stinks.

Still, on the Aussie basis of "Give the mug a go" we stand back and say judge not, lest ye be judged yourself. So good luck, and to all who fly upon her. On Melbourne Cup Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Boxing Day Test Day, Australia Day, Valentines or Columbus Day, whenever they finally get the word to go.

Like Branson, someone said, but without the charisma. Or the -700's and -800's.


6th Oct 2005, 11:47
and what would happen if there was public outcry over noisier jets flying overhead, especially at Sydney...

VH-Cheer Up
26th Oct 2005, 05:02
From today's SMAge

Regulator throttles back OzJet's take-off plans
By Scott Rochfort, Sydney
October 26, 2005

OZJET has suffered another blow to its plan to become Australia's fourth domestic carrier.

The aviation safety regulator says OzJet still has issues to "sort out".

OzJet originally planned to launch in June. It now appears the formula one racing identity Paul Stoddart-backed airline's aim to have eight daily return services between Sydney and Melbourne next month are overly optimistic.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has cited "third-party" issues for pushing back its planned "proving flights" for OzJet from this week to the second week of next month. This is considered the last hurdle an airline has to pass before gaining an air operators certificate.

"There's still a few things to sort out," CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said. He declined to specify them, but said they were not dramatic.

OzJet chief executive Hans van Pelt challenged the CASA timetable. "It will be done before then," he said, noting OzJet was preparing for its first "simulated" flight between Sydney and Melbourne on Friday.

Mr van Pelt said he could not think of any issues that were delaying OzJet's launch. As for rumours the issues related to OzJet's maintenance, Mr van Pelt said there were no "outstanding issues on the system of maintenance". He said rumours of OzJet nearly losing its maintenance contract with Ansett Aviation Engineering Services last week over an unpaid bill were untrue.

The airline says it now has all the systems in place to launch services. It is set to take delivery of its third 30-year-old Boeing 737-200 next week.

Mr van Pelt also played down concerns OzJet would have problems launching an all-business airline before summer. But problems it could have include its fuel-inefficient older 737s and Virgin Blue's attempts to draw higher-yielding business passengers. Mr van Pelt ruled out launching OzJet with heavily discounted business class fares.
So it's almost certain, then: Hello heavily discounted business class fares for Christmas...?

26th Oct 2005, 05:43
Do many people fly business over Christmas?

VH-Cheer Up
26th Oct 2005, 06:11
Do many people fly business over Christmas? Apart from a rotund gentleman in a red suit...?