the REAL cost of lean at Lyneham

[Kengineer-130]

Firstly, I don't want this thread to be seen as a non-constructive whinge, as that is pointless, but I want people to see just how bad the situation at Lyneham has got :\

The main point of concern I have is the basic lack morale and service ethos that has always got us through the bad times before. The manning levels at the moment are what I would decribe as DANGEROUS, as most trade desks in engineering mantainence are very short of manpower, and in a lot of cases unable to complete tasks due to fundamental problems such as not enough tradesmen, or not having the correct SAFE,SERVICEABLE equiptment to use.

Buy us serviceable aircraft staging, that does not fall over and is not covered in sharp edges and broken components
Buy us GOOD QUALITY tools, that don't break and fall apart,
but mainly GIVE US BACK OUR MANPOWER!!

As the shifts stand at the moment, each FLECS shift is lucky to see 5 tradesmen per desk, for K's and J's. This is compounded by leave, guard, courses etc, and leads to major undermanning and work getting carried over and carried over, ultimatly costing valuble aircraft time and sorties.

I have noticed a distinct lack of pride recently, which ultimatly leads to a major lapse in engineering standards. People will disagree and claim 100% avaliability etc, but the fact remains that people are simply sick of being messed about with ever more absurd ideas and systems, all being driven by people with NO CONCEPT of how aircraft enineering works. In my eyes, the solutions are simple and easily affected.

1) reform to 4 large shifts, K and J combined engineering. This will give a much needed rise in the number of relevant tradesmen per desk, per shift. This would allow corrective maintainance to be carried out alongside daily tasking such as AF/BF's , re-roles etc by utilizing the less busy trades to carry out routine servicing.

2) keep the K primary (sorry, continuity team) team, as it is a proven system that works well, along with a heavy rectifications flight for major work, ie fuel tanks/structures etc. This will provide a ongoing work element to the workforce which can oversee long term projects.

3) make the shifts 2 days 2 nights 4 off, as a major cause of lack of morale is the lack of a good social pattern, meaning there is very little team bonding or socializing.

I welcome any input to this, as I feel it is only a matter of time before serious safty hazards start to occour and no-one wants to see this
:\ :\

[Days Like These]

Not being an engineer myself I can't comment on the specifics of what you're saying but the EngOs I speak to seem to be in agreement.

Surely the most ideal short-term solution would be to take Techies off guard, a job for which their skill sets and pay grades are wasted! :confused:

[16 blades]

The REAL cost is hardly any serviceable airframes, despite what somebody's stats say. I cannot remember the last time I flew a sortie with a FULLY serviceable aircraft, and brought it back without something else having failed. I have seen the same airframe a number of times this month, each time having snags unresolved from the last time.

The spin merchants seem to chose their words carefully, since even if the claim of 100% "availablilty" were true, it does not mean 100% SERVICEABILITY.

LEAN does not work for us. When is SOMEBODY going to have the balls to stand up and say it publically?

16B

[KPax]

Ties in with 'centralised engineering at lyneham' thread. The SNCO's say that the constant changing of priorities with a lack of manpower is becoming unmanageable. They are told frame X is the priority, they start work and then 40 mins later are told the priorities have changed to another frame. This goes on for the whole shift leaving a line of 'half serviced' ac. The matter can only get so much worse in the near future when the redundancy people start leaving. What does the new OC Eng or whatever he is called think.

[EESDL]

Submit a 'Murphy', and another one, and another one..............

[OKOC]

I think the DASC (Defence Aviation Safety Centre) pay little regard to PPRune, as it is not an RAF site however, they DO take note of Murphy's and Condors and Human Factors Open Reports.

There are some very valid points here and a cut and paste job of the aforementioned points onto the official form(s) would have an impact and may get a result. And, the old adage "The more the merrier" is especially the case here-the more folks who raise the same points-the more likely that your complaints will be taken notice of and rectified.

[Kengineer-130]

I agree completely with the serviceablity issues, and to be honest its downright embarrasing when crews are having to fly frames that have ADF's and Lims that are constantly there. One of the major flaws is only servicing and repairing programmed aircraft, which to me is absolute stupidity, as if a frame goes u/s for any reason, there are no immediate spares avaliable and thus most times the sortie is lost or delayed. If the frame is on the floor, make it 100% serviceable even if it sits on the pan for a week, at least then all it needs is a B/F!!!
Also, there have been a few instances recently of aircraft being worked on whilst the crew are doing thier walk-rounds, surley this cannot be a safe practice, as the ground crew feel pressurised to rush the job and get it flying, and the aircrew want to stay our of the way, and in doing so may miss vital checks.
As stated above, its time someone said Lean is getting to a silly point now, where the idea is costing more than it is saving. Someone in a position of authority needs to stand up and be counted, because as usual the guys who are in the know, (i.e, the engineers) are being ignored
:{ I also urge the aircrew to snag EVERYTHING they are unhappy with, as it will highlight the fact that the completeness and quality of engineering is dropping off sharply.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely the most ideal short-term solution would be to take Techies off guard, a job for which their skill sets and pay grades are wasted!

Go on then, so which trades take up the slack? Which trades aren't as essential as 'Techies'?

The easy answer would be to get more MPGS personnel for gates, leaving tradesmen (and women) of all trades to get on with their trades. (But then again MPGS is having a hard enough time filling slots on current Platoons let alone opening up more.)

Its no good having loads of techies sat in hangers waiting for parts that Supply (or LSW or LSS or whatever its called now days) can't supply because their staff are too busy filling in for said techies on the gate.

This sort of 'techie/non-techie' stuff is pure 1980's fodder, in the days when there were a few extra folk floating around in the system to do guards. Everyone on a unit is important, cuts have hit across all trades and as such all trades are suffering from manpower deficiencies. I know of at least 7 stackers from Lyneham who are currently playing silly buggers in the desert, 7 less stackers from a unit that is already understaffed in that (among many others) department.

[monkeybumhead]

Helpful Stacker

You forgot to mention the fact you also have at least 1 of your bretheren (well of the female sort) that I know of in somewhat colder climes as well.

[fatter albert]

So did you end up doing the moving production line thing in the end?

I don't think the problem is really lack of manpower as such, it's more the fact that everyone is always in the wrong place doing the wrong thing because of this STUPID organisational model which did a lot of good for one person only.

The guard thing is not really that big an issue, you don't really lose that many people at any one time. It doesn't make that much difference.

For the REAL cost of all this, why don't you count the number of people who have had their green cards withdrawn since this happened, then consider why.

[Jobza Guddun]

Keng,

As a fellow mender at a different unit, OKOC is right mate. Murphy the problems, repeatedly, until someone from DASC has to pay a visit. Take them somewhere where there's no EngOs and brief them thoroughly on the shambles that is Lyneham Eng. Safety in numbers though :ok: Get a couple of aircrew you're on good terms with and share your safety concerns, to reinforce the point. Put together a presentation with facts and figures to give yourself more credibility, as you'll be dealing with senior officers. Stick a letter in the RAF News to rattle a few cages.

I would also urge you to keep a (personal) diary of events for use if it all goes horribly wrong one day, because if it does, the crap will definitely stick low down, not on the fool who created this mess nor on those who fall over themselves to embrace it.

This has gone too bloody far, I think it's past being "teething troubles", and something has got to be done before we lose people. Thankfully, most of us put still standards before deadlines, but that ethos is beginning to creak under the pressure, and that is so not fair on the aircrew who have to trust us, and to their credit give us great support with this problem

Keng, hang in there mate, don't give up on the battle, and try to keep the troops together on this one. :ok:

The time is nigh for a federation....

[FOMz]

The time is nigh for a few senior officers to wake up and smell the coffee. Wasn't it a similar sort of situation with staff officers telling the AOC one thing and when he spoke to people on the shop floor, being told completely the opposite; that led to the CASWO being established?

What will it take for these people to sit up and take notice?

[MaroonMan4]

Do what everyone else is doing....

Just take it on risk......and pray that something doesn't happen whilst you are in charge, supervising or authorising.....

Don't bother hanging on to the rope mate, everyone behind you on the rope has let go.....only when the politicians and airships realise that they have salami sliced so far that it has all stopped working will the something happen.

As I have forecast on numerous occasions, that just is not going to happen until something big draws public opinion into a very maliable, spin orientated Govt.

Examples include the NAO report on lack of Battlefield Helicopter lift (in some areas 38%). But no one is going to actually do anything about it until, say for example, a Katrina devastates a UK city and funny old thing 10000s of people that could have been winched to safety die.

The Lyneham issue will either end in a spate of high profile accidents or will just physically stop working as people vote with their feet.

Hence, weeks to do, and I voted with my feet - I do not want to be around an accident waiting to happen and the 'break that chain' buzz word of the 70's to 90's is replaced by the 'we'll take it on risk' jargon.

Think of family, your next job and best advice to those under you on how to avoid compromising their standards and professional ability. Saying no and fronting up to a senior officer that ultimately doesn't sign any supervision/authorisation paperwork is the only way.

Otherwise, you know where your 'buck will stop'!

[FJJP]

To be read by RAF Lyneham Execs...

It's a fair bet that the Stn Cdr and OCs and Flt Cdrs on the Sqns read Pprune. [They'd be living on another planet otherwise]. In any case, drop the hint in none-too-subtle conversations, loud enough to be heard by the execs in the crewroom or happy hour, making reference to this thread.

Working on the assumption that they are reading this, I respectfully suggest that you get out of your ivory towers and talk one-to-one to your line SNCO chiefs, in private, hats in the corner. And be unhappy with what you hear, for it will be the truth, and not the garbage spouted at the execs brief in good stats form.

I know, I have been there, and made myself thoroughly unpopular with certain members of the organisation hierarchy to boot. With 40 years service behind me as professional aircrew, I learned enough to listen to the guys on the line - if they said back was white as far as an engineering problem was concerned, that was good enough for me. It dug me out of many a hole by listening.

I have experienced all of the various cookie ideas dreamed up over the years, but if half the stories on this thread concerning the Lyneham reorganisation are accurate, I forecast a major [probably fatal] incident in the near future. I certainly would not want that on my conscience, and I don't blame the techies voting with their feet. It's madness - you can't support war on a shoestring; you have to have some slack in the system, otherwise you grind the guys into the ground and your war effort falls on its face.

Now working in the NHS, I can vouch for the old adage that you can prove anything with stats. The secret is to cut away the crap that surrounds and disguises the true state of affairs.

Execs, never mind your careers - can you live with yourselves knowing that you haven't done anything to stop a major accident? I'll ask the same question in a few months...

[Stan More]

DASC does not read Pprune at all, honest.
Submit a Murphy, the best way to highlight the madness!

[anothernumber]

If things are that bad at Lyneham get the Condors and Murphys written and keep writing them, the 2* at DASC can't ignore multiple reports turning up his desk.

[The Gorilla]

Oh yes he/she can and they do.

The fact is that if the service is aware of a problem that will impinge upon operational capability, then the said problem will be acknowledged but accepted as part of a risk assessment.

It has always been thus..



:ok:

[propulike]

It hasn't always been thus. And thinking that it has will only make it so.

[Safety_Helmut]

Risk Assessment

I think you're probably right Gorilla, many of the concerns highlighted here could here could well be "taken at risk", they could well be accepted following a risk assessment, but I would like to see the fully justifiable and supportable case that underpins such decisions.

Safety_Helmut

[Stan More]

Wise words anothernumber, apart from he's a 1*.
Gorilla you are talking bxxxxxxs. Every single one is investigated. I believe DASC hasn't recieved any from Lyn recently though.

Normal chain of command is the usual way to resolve problems. The SFSO can go straight to the Stn Cdr. If you are still getting nowhere, or for reasons of confidentiality/anonymity, go for a Murphy.

[Flap62]

Having no experience of the maintenance probs at Lyneham I still find this thread deeply saddening. It was always obvious in my time that techies of all branches took great pride in exceeding expectations and delivering a good product. It must be soul destroying to have to stand there day after day handing over aircraft that, through no fault of the team preparing them, are sub standard. I can only imagine what this is doing to morale.

[The Gorilla]

Stan More

Not a Sqn Ldr are we? Normal chain of command to resolve problems?? Now who's talking b****x??

I didn't say they didn't get investigated, just ignored as TFD to deal with. And that comes from my own personal experience of dealing with a previous incumbent. Mind you they do write a very nice letter though!!


There isn't a single Sqn OC or Stn Cdr in the Royal Air Farce today who has the spine to take up any such issues with higher authority. Why? Because the bottom line is that as long as the military continue to produce such excellent results the MOD and HMG aren't interested in the mundane problems that LEAN has caused. In fact LEAN is brill because you do the same amount of work with a lot less men.

:)

[flipster]

This thread is even more worrying than the previous Lyn Eng threads and should be sending alarm bells higher up (yes, they DO scan PPrune).

Some wise words have already been spoken if; someone believes that their command-chain cannot (or will not) address their valid worries, then I would urge ALL to Murphy AND Condor and then, keep on doing so and insist on written replies whenever possible.

Maybe everyone should take copious notes and copies of emails - ready for the BOI and/or civil action?

Everyone should be asking the question "What if"?

God forbid we lose another valuable ac, crew and possibly their 80 or so pax/paras - will everyone be able to look themselves in the eye in the mirror and say that 'taking it on risk' was worth it?

Whose risk is it anyway? I can guarantee that that it won't be a 2*'s ass on the line!

[SH! You Aint Seen Me]

Having served 21 years to date I can honestly say I have never been anywhere that morale is so low and the engineering set-up is such a shambles as at Lyneham. Having been a member of the Support Helicopter Force for 14 of those 21 years believe me I've seen some low morale!

I have had dealings with centralised servicing before at Kinloss in the 80's and while you did not have the Sqn ethos for the groundcrew, that I have since experienced and thoroughly enjoyed, things seemed to work fairly well there. Of course this was before the major manpower cuts and contractualization that the RAF has seen since. Kinloss had one line at that time and all line work and rects were carried out from the one location with one pool of manpower. The managment were aware what manpower they had to work with as there was only one admin office that all the leave passes, guard rosters and detachments went through. It seems to me at Lyneham that Flecs and HLS never seem to know wht the other is doing with manpower and can only hope that they will have someone of the relevant trade and qualifications to cover the other sections shortfalls. I have found it amazing that there will be nobody on shift on either HLS or Flecs to carry out esssential, (in my eyes anyway), functions such as ground runs or jack ups and they have to hope and pray that someone on the oncoming shift can carry out the required tasks! As has been commented on already what happens after this next round of redundancies when presumably less manpower will be available?

[16 blades]

if; someone believes that their command-chain cannot (or will not) address their valid worries

You know that this is the case, Flipster, because IIRC you've been there, and been on the recieving end of the results of 'taking the direct route'! (or do I have you confused with somebody else?!)

Sadly, although the present OC Lyneham is a top bloke and rightly respected by the vast majority (if not all) who serve under him, we have to understand that his hands are probably tied as much as ours are over this 'LEAN' bollocks. Plus, Stn Cdrs have traditionally been seen as "**** filters" (not just from below but ALSO from ABOVE!), especially where anything potentially bad happening on their station is concerned - and to be honest, one would expect it to be so - I imagine it is no different in civil aviation, or in any other business for that matter - after all, who wants to give their boss bad news?

Whilst I would like to believe that aviation, and the inherent (and necessary) safety culture that goes hand in hand with it, would win out over politics, it isn't always that way. Sadly I feel that either a major incident or an inability to fulfil an operational commitment are the only thing that will make the 'wheels' sit up and take notice. I feel, however, that our professionalism and pride (both that of us fliers and that of the techies that bust a gut to put 'frames on the programme, despite the apparent abject stupidity of their superiors) will ultimately prevent EITHER from happening. Our "Can Do / Make Do" attitude, whilst being one of our greatest strengths, may ultimately prove to be our downfall, sadly.

16B

[flipster]

16B

Bon jour mon brave. You might be talking about someone I know?

While we went for the jugular at 2* level , our command chain at the time was totally ragged (only in the AT fleet would we have no decent Int Cell at Grope, no real input at PJHQ and the Stn Cdr and 4 out of 5 Wg Cdrs out of circulation, while our chaps are being shot at every night without the correct trg, support or kit!)

Nonetheless, what was left of the C2 chain were informed of our misgivings - but they didn't have the inclination to reply, so we just escalated things a bit - as it were!

Fortunately, our fleet were:
a. VERY lucky
b. Blessed with excellent crews, whose skill has never really been recognised.
c. Well supported by the lower staff echelons and a 2* who got the hint.

The net result was that we didn't lose an ac in those Ops and all we got was a one-sided interview with the returning OC - who was totally unaware of what we were all doing on Ops and who never even bothered to ask.

Grope saw us as 'scaremongers' who were ruining their chances of a medal. But, at least, we felt we could look ourselves in the eye of a morning.

It was no co-incidence that a lot of staff-work was req'd to get the higher echelons up to speed.

Nor was it a co-incidence that we kept our No1s in the office for the whole of Veritas/Telic - not because we feared a severe boll0cking but because we remembered when we lost an ac in 1993 and we couldn't find enough W/Cs to visit all the families at the same time.

At least these days, some the training that crews get reflects what might be asked of them. Also, thanks to some really sharp work by a few top-rate staff blokes, more AT aircraft have a decent DAS (not ALL - sadly!)

But, if people have similar feelings about the failings of new Eng system at Lyn, at least you SHOULD have a system in place to circumvent your immediate C2 chain if they are NOT listening - so keep using Murphys and Condors until you are blue in the face - keep a paper trail, too.
Hopefully, the rumour that DASC is but a shadow of IFS and that it has lost its teeth are unfounded......? Also, do not hesitate to call in favours from mates in staff posts - they can very helpful!

In the situation to that which you referred, we would argue that we were justified at the time to by-pass the 'chaff' but we would also not recommend it as a first course of action and would be alarmed to hear that anyone feels the need to by-pass, in toto, the present system at Lyn/2 Gp.

Ultimately, we paid a (small) price for our actions but we were quite happy to do so - nor, incidently, do we regret it and our consciences remain clear.
We sincerely hope that everyone else can say the same in the future?

Just be careful.

[16 blades]

Now, why does that all sound SO familiar, Flipster? I sincerely hope history isn't about to repeat itself with a VERY different outcome, but I fear it may be the case unless some very complacent fingers are pulled out of some very comfortable arses soonest!

I note that in the case of somebody that both you and I know, (as I thought it would) the outcome was in the end, satisfactory (at least for the time being!) - I fear now that we no longer have even THAT flexibility to circumnavigate - we truly DO appear to have hit the bottom of the proverbial this time, and I fail to see the 'proverbial' bag that we are going to pull it out of this time - unless the IPT ha something on the go that I am not privy to!

For what it's worth, old chap, I personally thought that the individual in question did EXACTLY the right thing at the time, and recieved a great deal of undeserved flak for it - at the end of the day, SOMEBODY has to stick their head above the papapet!

As an aside, I hear that our 'alleged' pilot surplus of "70+" has now fallen to a deficit (albeit single figured) - add to that the anecdotal fact that Sqns are haemorrageing experience at at horrendous rate, and you may be getting a 'reserve terms' call-up anytime soon!!!

Take care, chap!

16B

Edited because I can't spell 'complacent'

[flipster]

It is all so sadly predictable!

[sumps]

One of the major down falls to the engineering fraternity, imho, is the lack of identity provided by the rapid turn out of different working practises. Remember the old days when we had A and B line then 24/30 and 47/70 and the knowledge of where we were going and what we were doing. It provided an identity and a bit of health competition that kept the standards up, something to work for.
Now it has been turned into little more than a factory it does make one wonder as to why one should want to stay at all. There are jobs like that one the outside and I for one left civvie street to get away from that culture.

Still nice of the Air Secretary to turn up and say that the whole lean study was based on piecemeal areas of the RAF then applied service wide and that it was the wrong thing to do.
No surprise to here that the fix is years away because we have now become understaffed hence the reduction in the amount of persons getting the next redundancies! :ok:

[The Gorilla]

Sumps

I remember those halycon days. The competition you refer to did indeed keep up the standards and we used to take the line guys n girls away with us on trainers to see the sharp end of what they did.

As Flipster says, it is so sadly predictable and in my view only going to get worse.
Those of you still in have my deepest sympathies. Keep safe...

:(

[Pontius Navigator]

The Lyneham wheels read pprune - you bet. DASC not read pprune - you have to be joking.

There is plenty of evidence that they not only read it but even start threads. UAVs in class G airspace. Yeah, a normal prune topic.

Low flying helos, MODs not interested in that? Pull the othert one.

The sex mad sqn ldr. OK, non-aircrew, read the Mirror.

You can bet your sweet bippy that the Lynham thread gets top billing.

[OKOC]

'scuse me from being a muppit (no pun intended!) but won't the 47/70/24/30 centralised eng mularky have to DECENTRALISE again when the new J jobbers leg it to RAF Brazed Mutton?

If so, why did her holiness centralise it in the first place or is it just that I don't have the big picture?

Apols if this bleeding obviousness has been threaded before.

[ZH875]

Simple, if J goes to BZN then it will have to take K with it, crowded BZN but LYN can close 5 years earlier.

[sufferingwife]

How about a different angle???? I am a long suffering wife of a Techie at Lyneham, having been in the Air Force myself I am gobsmacked at what I am hearing, do Lyneham not have to follow Health and Safety and Lone Working????


I know from just hearing what my husband has to say no one is listening to what is going on and it seems that the people that could do something about it are hiding in their offices and act supprised when comments are made to them. If anyone wants to meet the AOC then questions have to of course go through their bosses and the CO first so what hope do they have of being listened to.

My husband comes in with his a***** dragging on the floor after working 4 days or 4 nights and then spends 2 days sleeping or doing admin on camp in his stand down.

The RAF is not Honda or BMW it must have been proved by now that the system is not working both for the lads and the a/c.

The lastest rumour is that they will be divided once again into two, J and K in time for Christmas. For the sake of work and home life i hope it happens.

Sufferingwife at Lynham

[Kengineer-130]

The joining of J's and K's is not the biggest problem, it is the simple fact of a total lack of manpower, and simple common sense should tell the management, it is handy to have at least ONE person of the relevant trade and aircraft (K or J) on a maintainence dest. I am absolutly amazed that a shift is allowed to run with NO J riggers or K lekkies, and various other trades are at a bare minimum, and when an engine running team cannot be made as there is insufficient people avaliable is a joke. Also, why is there not someone qualified for independant inspections on EVERY SHIFT EVERY DAY????? work is being left for 2 or 3 shifts due to having no-one avaliable to carry out these vital checks????
As the above post mentions, the RAF needs to be dynamic and respond operational needs, NOT be stripped to an absolute bare minimum and worked flat out 24/7, as it leaves NO flexability whatsoever :mad:
It is NOT lean, it is counter productive and it is at best an absolute waste of resources, at worst a hideous flight safty accident waiting to happen.
If anyone is reading this who has authority to do somthing about it, consider these simple steps.

1) GIVE US MANPOWER- recombine the line and flecs, and make sure there are at least 10 of each trade per shift. 2SNCO's , 2 CPLS and 6 JT /SAC's. This will mean actually being able to cover leave/courses/detachments/dutys
2) buy us some SAFE, USEFUL staging that is tailored for the job, not just closest to use and cheapest.
3) Sort the mess out that the tool system has become, it is dangeorus, overcomplicated and there are not sufficient tools.

we do not need lean, we need common sense and communication between the (thankfully new) management and the people who are doing the job, not just blind implication of new systems like lean just because it worked in a sausage factory :mad: :mad:

[The Rocket]

having serviced in the Air Force myself

Ooh er missus :p :p :p

[southside]

Heard through the grapevine that the LEAN process at yeovilton has been cancelled as it doesn't work. Does that mean the Lyneham LEAN will be reconsidered?

[Collapsar]

It would appear that the designer of the LEAN programme at EGDL has misread the COD. While the first definition listed is;thin; having no superfluous fat. the individual concerned seems to have used the the third definition;meagre; of poor quality

[Wheel of Steel]

The Lean process in Flecs is currently suspended while they look at why the system isnt working. Results from this are due in December apparently!

[flipflopman RB199]

Things must be getting even worse at Lyneham,

It turns out today that a certain OEU due to depart for the USA on Sunday has found out today that instead of having 2 Hercs for the trail to the USA, now has one, after somebody spotted that one of the Hercs that it had been alloted for the past 6 months+ has actually only got 10 hours left on it until it is due a Major servicing. :ugh:

[Vage Rot]

Guys and galls,

This is going on everywhere. Morale is bad at ISK.

On the line, nearly all the Crew Chiefs have put in their PVR.

On the Sqn, everyone I talk to is looking at just how soon they can get out. That includes the young lads who really shouldn't be that disillusioned yet!

We have followed the accountants' advice and thinned down to that which is essential to support peace-time training operations. Didn't anyone tell them there is a war on?

me, personally? well FRI2 has got me in shackles for another 3 years but after that I'll go and sell burgers and fries rather than carry on spending 6 months plus away from my family. Otherwise, I might not have a family to come back to after the next stint at HMP seeb/basrah.

[HOODED]

VR you sum it all up nicely it's not just Lyneham. I'm sure you won't end up flipping burgers but yes family have to come first and these days the powers that be don't seem to care or aren't prepared to rock the boat.

[dogsquad]

You have to ask why it was only spotted now? Is that true?

and I hope that none of the very qualified engineers at Lyneham end up flipping burgers, they are too good for that.

Another change around Christmas? they better get their act together this time. Can't keep going from bad to worse.

Where is that light at the end of the tunnel?

[HercFairy]

Unfortunatly Due to finacial restraints at Lyneham

The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off till further notice!!

:} :E

[mud moving sumpy]

hi folks from the swampland

this is happening here as well, 4 sqns into 2!! ( techies becoming part of a centralised maintenance wing!!!!!)

the second line has been desimated, leaving less people to do more work, in less time.

the might pulse line, has flopped at the first hurdle, with it now taking more people to produce less servicable assets, and all this in the name of progress.

has none of the policy makers any idea on what is happening at the front line. you would have thought they would have looked at the huge numbers of volunteers for redundacy and thought, hang on, the troops are unhappy.

or maybe we should stop moving the hiearchy around every 2 years, and let the changes they impose at least take effect, rather than just changing the name of the section and the headed note paper!!!!!!

[Speedy Brace]

I also hail from swamp land and can confirm that morale in the big shed is rock bottom.

They work a pulse line system, for those that are not up to speed yet, thats service an a/c for 10 days then move it on to the next phase of serviceing. This sounds great because you can split a minor / minor * serv into 8 phases.

When the a/c moves on to the next phase the man power moves too, and the tools and the magards, etc.... In the bad old days the team chiefs did the work schedule and the a/c and team stayed in one place.

I wonder if people that matter have any idea what maddness this causes. the purpose of moving a/c we are told was " a visual tool to highlight our spares problem".

I seems that no matter whats been said before regarding lean, the reply we hear is that "lean will be sucsessful no matter what".

The future is not bright but bae our standing outside the FS office with job applications after you present your pvr.

[Jobza Guddun]

Morale on the swampland squadrons is also shocking (one of the sqns is sitting on 21 PVRs, another has application after application to leave Marham going in. Don't know about the other two). Nobody wants the CMU's and most time-served people are utterly disillusioned with the station eng (MIS)management falling over themselves to embrace this utter crap, and not listening to those who know better through sheer experience.

I have heard that the recommendation from the VSA regarding FJ units is to keep squadrons intact, for reasons of identity, morale, and team ethos. Marham has allegedly chosen to disregard this advice, and as such a so-called "trial" will see 2 and 31 merge eng wise, to see if a CMU works, while 9 and 13 will remain seperate. IMHE trials result in policy no matter what.

Why are the RAF / MOD paying consultants with no aviation engineering experience £15000 per week to come up with stunningly tw@t ideas when we have such a vast amount of experience within our own ranks? Or can't non-commissioned ranks come up with ideas and present working studies in them?

I can't wait to go into work a week tomorrow, and see how the redundancies are going to affect a major exercise in the coming weeks. You just know that plenty of people aren't going to give a toss about whether we pass or fail any more. I've seen morale plummet since the beginning of the year and a major (but by no means only) reason is this re-organisation at Marham.

OC FSW, OC DSW, SEngOs - I hope you're all very pleased with yourselves. I'd be well pleased with the PULSE if I'd been responsible for that scheme. Can you look in the mirror and honestly say you're doing a good job?

Rant off. :mad: :mad:

[Speedy Brace]

jobza


so in a nut shell,

The Air Force is down sizing to 41000,
The Air Force overseas commitment is crippling,
All the experiance ground engineers are taking advantage of the second traunch with a possible 3rd to mop up all the rest. Engineers told to reevaluate there tried and trusted working methods and to embrace ideas which industry would not touch with a sh*ty stick, morale is lower than a snakes arse.
Aircrew unsure of getting flying hours in every month.
No one with the balls to stop it getting further out of hand than present.
BAE about to take over 2nd line maint of the gr4
St Athens closing down red dragon cause the majors are on there way to swampland

Well if iv;e missed anything could you let me know.


where will this all end......................?

[Maple 01]

where will this all end......................?

A large smoking hole in the ground and two more for the station cemetery

[Roland Pulfrew]

It is sad to here what is going on at Lyneham but of course they did it at Brize as well. When 101 moved north side (to save maintenance on their Sqn buildings) the engineers from 10 and 101 were amalgamated into VC10 Engineering to save a few posts. Morale of the ground crew Hi to Zero very rapidly!

At least as 10 (sadly) disbands the VC10 engineers will rejoin a proper Sqn so we can hope for an improvement in morale (and perhaps serviceablility (no slight intended)).

Yet again the powers that be bang on about Ethos and then ignore all the damage being done to it by daft profit driven business best practice!

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Is it not the fact that we, “The Military”, are being forced to embrace some “faddish” consultant recommended way of carrying out our business i.e. LEAN,PULSE et al, the true reason why things are going wrong?

We are unique in our modus operandi and therefore should not be considered suitable for true profit style business strategies. Leave us alone to do what we do best before it completely breaks. The writing is already on the wall I’m afraid if you read the other threads on this subject!
:} :} :}

[Bluntend]

Perhaps if filing Murphys and Condors and trying to attract the attention of DASC doesn't work, we should be bi-passing the system completely and writing to our local MPs (attaching printouts of this thread as validation of our concerns). Once parlimentary questions start being asked about the current state of morale and operability across the Royal Air Force, some of our Lords and Masters might start to take note. Its one thing for new ideas to have a detrimental impact on morale, another entirly when it puts flight safety at risk.

As an aside, I know of a guy who was involved in a Lean exercise being run by a 4 man consultancy team on a minimum of £2k per day each at an RAF base. The consultants were extoling the virtues of Lean philososhies on companies like Honda and Toyota but when asked whether the Japanese Military had adopted the process they refused to comment. If our uber-efficient far eastern military counterparts can't make Lean work, what hope is there for us?

[flipster]

Blunt-end

Be careful of speaking to MPs - I think there might be some rule about that somewhere.

Of course, however, there is nothing to stop your 'civilian' wife or parents doing so. I gather James Gray MP (Tory) is rather switched on to affairs at Lyneham. He and his pals have asked rather embarrasing questions of 'noo laber' in the past. Unsurprisingly, they were met with 'spin and b@llox' in the House but it does raise the temperature at HQ STC/2 Gp - sometimes to your benefit, sometimes not.

"Check six"

flipster

[Bluntend]

Thanks for the heads up Flipster. Maybe some of our recently redundant colleagues are in a better position to vent their spleen in a more public domain.

[engineer(retard)]

"This sounds great because you can split a minor / minor * serv into 8 phases"

That is outstandingly lean, AW can build an aircraft in 6 stages.

Regards

Retard

[shoutingwind]

its gotta be bad when people are voluteering for Basrah to get out of lyneham because its a better atmosphere! though saying that They- the mighty powers that be- are reducing the ammount of accomodation, equipment and the stager peps just shrunk so there are no spares. oh hang on a sec- there are none at Lyneham either! Thank God for the Spams- otherwise our fleet would be stuck dirtside.

But i don't want you to think this is but a pointless moan- fear not i will be bombarding the high ups with Murphys, and getting everyone else to do the same as soon as i get back to Blighty.

[Speedy Brace]

Rumour has it that a few Eng Off's from swampland are going to the seaside in the near future for an award presentation.
the award is said to be a bronze award in industry for the pulse initiative...... can anyone confirm.......

[monkeybumhead]

Just had the pleasure of looking through the pages of the summer edition of the Lyneham Glob and found a wonderful article on page 27. It appears to be somebodys attempt to justify what has happened to the Eng Wing setup. No supprises at the fact it fails to mention the current setup is a load of boll**ks and most who are having to work it are pi$$ed right off.
It appears that most of the HLS manpower will be tasked with flight servicings and role changes. I hope the role risk assessments have been amended to accomodate a certain chief who decided the 47/LXX eng ones are no longer valid, just cos they don't say HLS at the top (knobber!!!).

[RigPig]

Now that Lyneham has got new upper management have there been changes to the chaos that was created by the previous OC Eng (or whatever she was called by the time that she left).

Are there any good points to Lean, as we are having the review at Cosford and from what I can see the people conducting the review dont have a clue about what we do or indeed anything about aircraft engineering.

Where did the previous Lyneham Lean thread go or did big brother remove it?

[CashMachine]

Wokkaworld is in the middle of leaning at the moment. Needless to say most of the two stripers and above are praying for redundacy or are just going to get out when their time is up.
I think this really will be the straw that breaks the camels back. I don't know of any NCO's who want to be in the Airforce now, everyone is talking about banging out at the earliest chance.
Moral is very low and the people at the top seem to not give a s :mad: :mad: it.
Wokkaworld is seriously overstretched with no chance of a let up and now JHC need to chop another 220 people, most of them from wokkaworld!
GO, GO NOW, DON'T LOOK BACK!!