Civair..will he ever learn

[wheelbay]

The man who disappointed hundreds of people at Christmas when his London-South African charter flights were cancelled, is planning to relaunch the scheme.

But this time he plans to "have the money in the bank" from his backers first before advertising the charter, he said.

Andy Cluver, the group chief executive of Civair, Cape Town, who was in Durban recently, said he was already talking to potential funders.

He hoped to start up again later in the year when the cheapest one-way single ticket would be R2 000 for passengers who booked early. Other single tickets - bought later - would cost about R4 000.

Cluver said he was at Indaba to promote his established helicopter charter operation.

One Indaba source said he had personally picked up a brochure at the beginning of the four-day trade show that was punting the London-SA charters.

However, there were no brochures on show when the a newspaper visited.

The source said that industry people he had spoke to had been "mortified" to learn that Cluver was planning to go ahead with the charters.

Cluver announced his new no-frills charter at the Aviation Development Workshop for KwaZulu-Natal held in Durban, saying he planned to start his low-cost international flights from Stansted Airport in England to South Africa last October.

Flights were to also have landed in Durban, but passengers had to catch the return flight in Cape Town (because of problems with the length of the runway), Cluver said at the time.

But the October start up date was later postponed to December 18 "for reasons beyond Civair's control".

But long before then, South Africans living in England had booked and paid for flights back home to spend Christmas with their relatives.

And when the charters were eventually cancelled, hundreds of would-be passengers were left heartbroken. And many did not have the money to buy a normal scheduled air ticket at peak season rates.

Londoner Aiden Smith, who had planned to spend Christmas with his mother in Cape town, was reported as saying that 10 of his friends had been booked on the same flight and that "Civair has totally ruined our holiday, and has caused pain and heartache".

While he applauded Civair for coming up with the idea, "it's very unfair to be letting so many people down," he said, adding it was a complete flop.

Cluver, who readily spoke to reporters at Indaba, said that 60 percent of passengers would have travelled from England to South Africa, while the balance had been planning to fly in the opposite direction.

The flights were unable to start because his black empowerment American partner, who lived in South Africa and who had been his financial backer, had "vanished". Cluver said he hoped to renew his licence with the International Air Licence Council.

[B Sousa]

"cheapest one-way single ticket would be R2 000 for passengers who booked early."

Depending on the airframe, if you triple book the seats with no refund, it just might pay for the fuel.........

"If it looks to good to be true.....it probably is.....................

[KID Quality]

Soon these airlines will be paying pax to fly with them mark my words. The idea behind this scheme is simple........advertising my friend! Airlines will get plastered with corporate colours and be required to fly VFR low level over highly populated areas enroute. Just remeber it was the KID who gave you the heads up on this one guys!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Anyone dumb enough to go into business with Cluver after the last debacle deserves to be shafted by him.

[KID Quality]

so ur saying its no clever with cluver

[Goldfish Jack]

IN these tough and depressing times we are all going through... at least there is a comedian with sum humour.....

This sounds like another good laugh.

As said in earlier postings, how on earth will anyone book ther again and hope to fly. No doubt the unsuspecting joe soap who knows no better. We know all the stories, but I am sure there are a lot of people out there that do not know his past and will book and get caught again.

He in Durban - maybe he is talking to Schaik????????

[glimmerman_alpha]

Not another Cluver Fantasy:yuk:

After the resposession circus at the Waterfront, I dunno how this guy can just come back and try to screw everybody over once more:ugh:

The writing was on the wall for Civair a long time ago. May its time he find himself another industry to screw over:}

Lets see.....this might turn out to be a great :mad: up!!!!

The Civair story will make a best selling novel :ok:

Hey Andy, maybe its time to go write a biography!!!!

[clipboard]

What next? Cluver would love to have Schabir Sheik as a BEE partner, but I don't think Schabir's going to be around for a while.

Rumour has it that Cluver is talking to Gary "Supervan", and I believe that they're talking about a merger. The two of them actually are very similar........

Established helicopter business at the Indaba????? Two old scrap Jetrangers, thats an established business?? The Sheriff could not even fly it away when he repossessed it, coz it was'nt airworthy......

The guy's probably got some "los" in Durban. That would explain why he would be there...;) :ok:

Dream on!:}

[glimmerman_alpha]

You cannot possibly be serious!!!

Supervan and Cluver doing a merger:oh:

:mad: That will be a really interesting company to work for. One owner is fighting off the bank while the other is permanently in some sort of kak and also not believe in paying his pilots because....quoting Supervan..."Flying the Huey is a honour":p

Saw a Hornett on a low bed at Supervan's pad the other day. Seems like he is collecting war goodies.

What a crazy industry, it surprises me every bloody day.

Well, lets see what comes out of this cluster:mad:

Fly safe:ok:

[Bravedave]

Civair to London again?, Posted on 05 September 2005
_______________________________________________________

CIVAIR, the Cape Town airline company, has reapplied to the International Air Services Council in Pretoria for an international schedule licence. Andy Cluver, ceo of Civair, said: "There are no specific dates yet for the launch of the new service. It all depends on the outcome of the application which will only be announced in the coming two or three months."
Last year, the company left hundreds of passengers stranded days before the airline was due to fly.

(Dorine Berger)

_______________________________________________________

---------------------------------------------
Brought to you by Travel News Now
http://www.travelnewsnow.co.za


I am finished..here's hoping the Council takes its finger out of its collective nose and sends this fool packing, like it should have done the first time

Does he think that the angry public really believe his kuk about investors letting him down ...and will support this nonsense again...clueless

[Gunship]

Who can be so stupid to ever fly with them (if they DO get wings) :E

[REAL ORCA]

Now this is one posting the media should pick up on to try and protect the "innocent"!!!:ouch:

[south coast scaff]

I agree with gunship, if you choose to fly a sh:mad: airline you deserve what you get. tough luck!

[Latent Heat]

The general public is ignorant, how are they to know who Civair and Cluver are???? All they see is a so called "cheap/er passage" to the UK.

Can you blame them?

[ruffusruffcut001]

I recently heard that this Andrew oke took the B90 (zs-mum) to Interjet for repairs.
In the meantime Interjet contacted Westbank in connection with the logbooks , only to be told to stop work a.s.a.p.

[alwaysinverted]

Cluver is confused! Big time! :confused:

He recently had lots of problems with his bankers, as was reported on PPrune. Then he had to sell a helicopter before the bank repossesed it for the 4th time. After doing so, he promptly told everyone that he's gone into partnership with the guy in JHB that bought it, and that he did'nt sell it, he gave it as his part of the partnership. Absolute rubbish.

In the mean time the Waterfront Company has served him with an eviction notice for not paying his rent. No harm in being poor or battling in today's economic and aviation environment, but this dude thinks his "Rockafella", and thinks that he's gonna get an airline up and running with no money or backers. Who's gonna back this dude? After last year's fiasco, the Brits will not forget the name Civair or Sif Air.

Come on Andy, get a life my man!:} Forget avaiation. You're just not cut for it bro!

[George Tower]

My only experience of AC is that he is a rude and disorganised man. I never met him due to the above!

Over the years it seems that Civair have got a reputation as laughing stock. Unless of course you've done business with him in which case you probably don't see the funny side.

Whatever you think of AC what do you guys think about the feasibility of his business idea? From memory wasn't he proposing to use a 747 classic. With the price of oil going thru the roof I find that to be one very big reason why it couldn't work.

I'm still waiting for him to advertise the scenic route from CPT-STN in ZS-MUM:E

Just out of interest how are the Low cost guys coping in SA with the high fuel prices. I know SAA erroneously call it tax and add it to fare but Kulula and 1 time don't, yet they are flying a/c with P&W JT8D engines which surely (am I making big assumtions here) chow a lot more fuel than the CFM56 or V2500 engines? This has got to start affecting the bottom line or going on airfares surely?

[Teignmouth]

Civair needs support, not criticism - Cluver


September 8, 2005

Civair Airways should be supported, not criticised, for its efforts to introduce low-cost flights between South Africa and the United Kingdom.

So says Andy Cluver, CEO of the fledgling airline that disappointed about 7 000 booked passengers last December when promised flights between London's Stansted airport and Cape Town never got off the ground.

Civair recently reapplied to the International Air Services Council in Pretoria for an operating licence to fly three return flights a week to London Stansted, one return flight a week to Athens, Greece, and one return flight a week to Malaga, Spain.

Last week Argus Action reported the objections of South Africans living in the United Kingdom, who said they would oppose the licence application after the disappointment and financial losses they had experienced when Civair told booked passengers to make other flight arrangements, only days before most were due to arrive in Cape Town.

In response to last week's report, Cluver has asked Argus Action to publish the "correct" information.

"Our application for the renewal of our International Scheduled Licence has been submitted and gazetted," he said.

"Over 7 000 bookings were received, showing the demand for a low-cost alternative to the conventional airlines.

"Yes, we have received a few letters of complaint and we apologised for the disappointment last year. However, we have received hundreds of letters of support, asking us when we will be starting the service, as it is needed."

Cluver said Civair had refunded "all the monies" received from passengers last year, except for 13 passengers whose information and banking details were incorrect. They would be refunded as soon as they provided the correct information.

"The banks regrettably would not return the commissions and charges," he said, adding that passengers had agreed to that stipulation when booking.

"We hope to reimburse these monies by offering them a 'special price' return flight."

Regarding its new application, Civair would go public with a booking website when all the documentation was in place, which could take a few months, said Cluver.

He noted that a spokeswoman for the Department of Transport in Pretoria had told Argus Action last week that she had received only one objection to the renewed licence application.

Civair had never been insolvent, Cluver added, referring to a comment last week by an objector, who likened Civair's inability to raise the funds for the deposit for a Boeing 747, to an insolvent who would consequently not be permitted to trade for 10 years.

Cluver denied that the flight cancellations had damaged this country's tourism industry.

"A few unhappy customers does not constitute damage to the tourism industry, which, incidentally, is not our number one industry."

He added: "It's time that the South African media and authorities start to support the life blood airlines that bring so many tourists and business persons to our country, often under difficult conditions with spiralling fuel costs and difficult internal demands."


Many countries, cities and towns overseas paid or gave concessions to airlines "for the privilege of having them fly to their areas", he said.

"Civair has received substantial concessions from the United Kingdom Airports Authorities," but nothing from the South African government, provinces, cities, institutions or airport authorities "to support or promote the introduction of new airlines into South Africa".

"However, spiralling parasite charges are continuously charged and increased without justification," said Cluver.

Colin Oakley, business development manager for the British Airports Authority at Stansted airport, told Argus Action yesterday he had no knowledge of the "substantial concessions" Cluver said Civair had received from the United Kingdom.

"We have had no discussions with him. We haven't spoken to him since his last attempt, when he approached us on wanting to do the route."

John Walker, a British citizen who told Argus Action last week that the flight cancellations last year had deprived him and his wife of a holiday in Cape Town they had booked seven months in advance, said yesterday he had established subsequently that "Civair did not have a UK operator's licence and indeed had never applied for one".

The damage to the SA tourism industry was "significant", he added
Mark Smith, a South African living in London, asked: "Will Cluver have a plane this time? That's generally the first step."

Referring to the number of objections to the Department of Transport, Smith challenged Cluver to delay the application procedure for a month, "then see how many you will get once this story goes out on the wires".

Smith provided a list of 20 names of people he said had lodged objections with the department.

Eugene Owen of Weybridge, UK, said: "It's not about not wanting to support a budget airline. I was one of the first to book on Civair in May 2004."

Objections were to Cluver selling seats but not delivering flights "during the busiest and most sensitive time of the year".

In response to Cluver's excuse that his black empowerment partner had not come up with the promised money, Owen said: "I never dealt with this backer. I dealt with Civair."

Civair had left many people out of pocket by not refunding all the money they had paid, Owen added.

"Cluver says the banks refused to do so ... I did not deal with the banks. I paid Civair."

He rejected Cluver's promise to provide discounted flights
"So for me to benefit from it, he will profit from it, as he forces me to book another flight with him. And how secure and reliable will these seats on the promised flights be?"

[alwaysinverted]

This dude is really a prize tit!:}

Cluver says Civair has never been insolvent. That may be so, but it does'nt have any money either. It certainly does'nt have large assets, and are unable to raise money. From the rumours I have heard, its bordering on being insolvent. Can't pay the rent in the Waterfront, the bank reposessed or attached one of the helicopters at least 3 times due to non payment and/or reneging on a payment arrangement during the past few months, and so it goes on and on. Most of the stuff he owns are old and scrappy. A wooden shack at CPT Int Airport, an incomplete hangar (for 6 months no work on it), a scrapped and dismantled BO 105, an old B90 that should have gone to the boneyard 20 years ago, a clapped out old Be55, and 2 old clapped out Jetrangers, financed to the hilt. Its a joke, seriously, a huge joke, and this dude thinks he can pull the wool over educated people's eyes.

The public out there are absolutely right to oppose any application for an international AOC by this man. Last year he ran around JHB with a BEE partner trying to raise R250 000 to pay as a DEPOSIT on an aircraft. If he did'nt even have the deposit money to lease an aircraft, what went thru his mind when he thought he could operate an airline. Hiding behind a failed BEE transaction is the poorest excuse I've heard of. He more than likely went the "rent a black" route, and when that plan could'nt raise any money for him, he blamed it on a failed BEE deal. Typical Cluver politics.

The flying public should all stand together and draft a petition to the Air Service Licensing Council to prevent them from granting him a license. Unfortunately, the Aviation Industry have been de-regulated, and there's a good chance that he may get a license. Once he gets the license, he'll try all the tricks in the books to raise money again, and the people out there should then remember how badly he let them down previously.

I mean, you must really be touched by the moon to support this clown.:yuk:

[B Sousa]

Once he gets the license, he'll try all the tricks in the books to raise money again, and the people out there should then remember how badly he let them down previously.

All you have to do is go to the 419 collection on "The Campfire" . Those letters are mailed every minute and believe it or not MANY folks respond with information. And thats MANY otherwise INTELLIGENT people.
So it should not come as a surprise to anyone that someone could cough up money for a Snake Oil Salesman.

I say it again and again in the immortal words of my hero, John Wayne, "Life is tough, but its tougher when your stupid."

[George Tower]

It seems Mr Cluver has established a reputation for himself. :rolleyes:

So far I have heard of no critcism of his business plans, in so far as whether the proposed operation has the ability to generate profits.

It seems there is more than enough demand due to the number of disgruntled punters left stranded last year.:confused:

Is the 747 classic the way to go on this route? As we all know we would have thought that oil at $40/barrel was high; now what we'd all give to have it there again.

[ruffusruffcut001]

Civair needs suppor not criticism

This oke is a clown and does not warrant any support.
The fact remains, the banks wont lend him a penny, bearing in mind that the Rossair saga has left a few banks ,millions out of pocket.

[ASD]

Just wondering if anyone knows what the latest is on the Civair front...it's been a bit quiet.

Had a look on the civair website and just says "Coming Soon!"

Is A.C. still planning and trying to get the 747 and the London route?

Not that I would ever book a ticket with them, just purely out of curiosity.

[ruffusruffcut001]

Heard from the guys at Interjet that he wants ZS-MUM,s maintenance finished by the middle of December .The a/c has to go on a contract.

[GULF69]

Surprised Clueless isn’t using that on the London - CPT trip!

69

[propspanner]

ZS-MUM???

The white and red C90??

They will have a good take-off and landing, no problems there!
But.........they will have to get some $$$$ at the next fuel stop as something will go wrong??

It will take them a year to get to London! But what a jol that would be for the crew?? :p Getting to know Africa better!

[ruffusruffcut001]

propspanner,
A90 , standing outside Interjet.Looks like a piece of :mad:

[GULF69]

ruffusruffcut001

That price of :mad: spends more time in maintenance that in the air... i would personally not set foot in it.

69

[davidjh]

ZS-MUM is an old B90 which is ITT limited on takeoff at sea level! Why even give clueless the time and space on this forum. Nothing more needs to be said about him!! I just hope that Audrey de Angelo does some investigative journalism this time before punting his "airline" in the newspaper! :confused:

"Foolish is the man who never reads a newspaper; even more foolish is the man who believs what he reads just because it is in the newspaper." - August von Schlöser

[ruffusruffcut001]

I heard the latest and the greatest is that A.C walked into the maintenance manager,s office sometime last week and threatend with legal action if ZS-MUM does not get worked on , only to be told to get out of the office and take the a/c somewhere else to be fixed.

[despatch]

HI people
I was just wondering if someone have heard on galleyFM whats happening to civair.When I was last at the V&A waterfront I walked passed the civair helicopter stall and i almost could not demp my curiosity to ask the geezer when is this poxy little airline gonna start and have the people been refunded and compensated for their "flights disruption".HE:} HE:}

[flyingmogul]

hey,

Well, my interview went well, I was selected for the shortlist, then asked to join in October, November, Early in Jan, Feb, March...

Still waiting.....


FM

[samueldethierry]

ON CONTACTING CIVAIR PERSONALLY IN SA I WAS INFORMED THAT:

CIVAIR ARE TRYING TO RESTART THE LOW-COST LONDON STANSTED - CAPE TOWN AND LONDON STN - DURBAN SERVICES THIS WINTER (HIGH SEASON FOR THE ROUTE).

WHETHER THEY WILL STILL ATTEMPT TO USE THE AGEING BOEING 747-200s I DON'T KNOW?!?

Does anyone know anything else?

[davidjh]

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT PAY ANY MONEY TO THIS AIRLINE...ER...MAN, ANDY CLUVER.

[GULF69]

SOME PEOPLE NEVER LEARN.........
69

[Goldfish Jack]

I also heard they were planning to operate again this year'

The only problem was how to organise customs and immigration so they can use the Jetranger and depart and arrive at the waterfront to avoid the chaose at FACT at immigration.

There was also a problem about getting fuel at Saldanha I hears


:) :ok: :p