Contract Ag Pilot Accountability

[Turboman]

This is bound to get a lively debate going.

Over the last year some pilots have cost some operators a good deal of money through their actions or inactions. We have discussed in another thread that the operators should probably be the main instigator of their companies safety culture and are therefore primarily responsible for unsafe practices.

The pilots however are driving the aircraft and ultimately have the accident or incident.

Operators and pilots generally suffer together in a claimable accident, the operator financially and the pilot, if not with an injury or worse, with an accident record that may effect him financially in the long run.

I have heard talk however of some operators lowering the bonus and/or the addition of a safety bonus as a means of making their contract pilots more financially accountable for their incidents and accidents. They're saying that in incidents and accidents, especially unclaimed ones, the operator is left to foot the bill, while the pilot takes his 18% and says "sorry mate".

[Lowlevldevl]

As a contractor and a Ppruner whose identity is probably no secret I would simply like to make the point that this argument would probably hold water if 18-20% were in fact significantly better than the award. However if they factored in the retainer, superannuation, workers comp and holiday pay many contractor ag-pilots would find that they are in fact being paid LESS than the award. Not to mention that many of the tax advantages of being a contractor have been eroded to the point that there's no benefit there either.

20% in most cases matches the award. Its just that different payment methods suit different pilots' situations, operators as well. So, that being the case and if pilot's paid PAYE aren't expected to share in a loss, why should contractors be any different?

[Agwaggon]

hmmmm.
Yep I thought this would rattle the cage a bit too.
Not so, so far anyway.
Funnily enough It seems to be the most whined about topic if you are talking to the men at the coal face!!
Guess everyone is thinking on this. What you said Turbo in relation to money being withheld I'm told reliably is correct. I hope it doesn't become a trend as the reduceing contract rate has been.
You know many years ago the industry itself determined that an amount of 20% of the gross income of the aeroplane was roughly the equivelent to the award. That included provision for the pilot to accomodate himself pay workers comp etc. That suited both parties for a broard range of reasons and on a personal basis that suited me just fine to.
Then turbine aircraft came onto the scean and woshka, down it went in the main to 18%. A bit over 10 years ago compulsory super was introduced and that then had to be paid by the pilots (on contract). Also over the years it semed to become the norm for the operators to pay for accomodation for the crew which came to include the pilots!! So there was a slight swing then back on the pilot side of the ledger. This is the main reason that I was not all that unhappy with the 18% rate as it usually included accomodation in the boon docks.
There is now though a trend to drive that rate lower again and I personally know pilots that have been driven down to 15, !6, and 17 % or they don't have a job. It is also not lost on me that the operators that are doing this are or seem to be very very successful. Which comes across to me as being nothing short of greedy.
But thats just my personal opinion.
It is tough on an operator when thing go to custard. No two ways about it. But that is part of being an operator. In most cases the financial rewards of running a sucessful ag operation are far far greater than that of simply piloting. But it comes at a cost. Much more stress, many more hours, we all know the deal.
And any ag pilot who has pride in himself suffers far greater I think than the boss if a mistake he has made is going to cost money. And ultimately his entire career is on the line. I know many that have fallen on that sword, never to rise.
I think the shrinks would have a field day with this. Now I'm no physiotherapist but I think this has something to do with, I"m hurting here so I"m bloody well going to make you hurt too!!
But thats just my personal opinion.!

[Turboman]

As you say, very interesting reaction. Does that mean that everyone is basically happy with the status quo, and don't want to rock the boat? Or perhaps it means that we feel we should be contributing to the cost of our accidents? I agree LLD, it shouldn't matter if your PAYE or a contractor.

I did the calculation about 3 years ago at 18%. Less than $120K you where better off as an employee, greater than $120K better off as a contractor, and becoming significantly better off the higher you went. Obviously things have changed a bit since then, the award has gone up, but spray prices should have gone up also. Personal tax is coming down and so is workers comp in NSW. At the end of the day a lot of us are still the highest paid general aviation pilots in the world, and we beat a lot of airlines too. It might be dangerous but no one is forcing us to do this, and when I started I couldn't believe I was getting paid to do it in the first place (young and naive, gotta eat).

Regarding financial contributions to accidents by pilots I suppose it would depend on what the operator was trying to achieve, cost recovery, or a deterent, or both. If I was being reckless I feel I should contribute, but I don't intentionally try and damage the plane. Would I back off a bit, and take less risks if I new I would be expected to pay for a percentage of the damage caused by me? I don't know, maybe, but I think the same thing can be achieved with regular safety education.

[Lowlevldevl]

Turboman,
We can be paid better than other GA professionals, yes. But not usually better than the airlines all things considered. (e.g poor seasons, a need to work in places with limited services, no fixed roster, etc; )
Bear in mind though that when you make the choice to take the path marked 'Ag-Pilot', you pretty much shut the door on a successful airline career. Those years spent VFR lowlevel are years not spent multi-IFR. Many of us start young and of neccessity retire early without any particular skills outside of Ag, so we need to be properly remunerated. Have a look at the incomes of other similarly trained workers and you' start to wonder if we get paid well or the other GA guys get paid crap. At the end of the day like any other commodity its a case of supply and demand. With plenty of airline wannabees in GA its little wonder their pay is so low.
I think there probably is an argument for some kind of "safety" bonus, but it should be a percentage tacked on the top of the 20%. Not one that comes off.

Why do I get the impression that pilots are apologetic that they get paid properly. Remember that when ur contract rate falls from 20% to 17.5% you haven't just lost 2.5%......... Youv'e lost 12.5%!!! If interest rates were to move just 1% we'd be screaming blue murder so what gives?:confused:

[Agwaggon]

Thats an interesting thought Turboman. But I'm not convinced.

Hypothectical.- You get a call fron a guy you have helped out in the past,and he he sayes he is getting frantic down there and he wants you to come and jump into his new 802 so that he can jump out for a bit and organise things. You are glad to help. You have done this for him before and he always pays you 18% and he is a good payer. It's as busy as all hell and before you can turn around twice 12 days of dawn to dusk have passed.
Then next morning you are airborne in the wee hours again and just as the sun is starting to poke is nose up over the horizon you arrive at a series ob blocks to do and they have a few wires arround. You have a good look arround and decide how you are going to aproach the first block. there is a wire running along the edge of the opposie end and another running along the block beside you. You have done an orbit of the block and are happy with what you see. About 3/4 of the way down the first run something catches your eye and with horror you notice a single earth return spuring off the wire in the next field and cutting accross your block and joining onto one of the poles at the far end. You reef back but too late and bingo the prop takes it out.
with a hugh knot in your gut you pull around into an orbit to see what you had done.
What you don't know is that the wire srtike on the blade has fractured the seal and within seconds most of the engine oil is pumped out and sensing this the engine shuts down. This happens just as you are in a 60o angle of bank looking down with a full load at 60 feet!!
The ensueing forced landing is about what you would expect from that position with water from the wet season everywhere and the machine digs in badly and flips over onto its back and is destroyed.
On the good side you manage to extracate yourself with nothing more than a badly sprained ankle and some cuts and bruises.
The reaction of the owner is pretty much what you would expect under the circumstances and you are feeling pretty bloody lousy yourself and are having a very hard time coming to terms with how you didn't pick up that wire on your inspection of the block. Was it the sun ? Was it the drift on the 1/4 window ? Who knows but as sure as hell you missed it!!
The next day you get someone to drive you out to be there at the recovery of the machine and the owner comes up and asked you how did you not see that wire. He has changed a bit in the past 24hrs and is quite hostile toward you.
You go home and three weeks later you recieve a letter from his solicitors informing you that they are going to seek damages from you in regard to the excess on the machine. $125,000 and that they will also be making a further claim against you for the lost production of work that the machine would have been expected to do over the next 7 days after the accident.
The legal basis of the claims will be that you acted in a reckless manner in your role as a contract pilot and that you did not preform a full and proper inspection of the job site and in that case you were soley responsible for the losses incured to there client!
So in this case Turbo would you be happy to cough up maybe a couple of hundred grand??

[Turboman]

LLD, around the $120, $130K mark, Jetstar & Virgin Captains, Qantas & Cathay junior first officers, corporate jet captains.

Become first officer usually around the age of 30-35, been flying for about 15 years, 10 years of which they have made $0. Captains 40 to 50 years of age. There is certainly too much supply and not enough demand.

Sure senior first officers and Captains with international carriers do better than us but it has taken them till the age of 40 to 50 to get there. On the other hand they probably work 10 years longer than us, but they are PAYE paying the top mariginal rate compared to ag contractors paying under 30%

Working in ag is unpredictable, both financially and knowing when you are going to work, but if we didn't like it that way I think we would have got out in the beginning.

P.S. Only 3% of the population earn over $120K, surely there are a lot more than that with equivalent or better training than us. Don't get me wrong, I think I am worth ever cent I get paid, I am just pointing out some realities.

AgwaGGon, with regards to this accident that happened a couple of years ago, if I was told I was now expected to pay 18% of damage caused by me through neglect, which I had ageed to with a contract, I would have negotiated a high percentage, say 20%, to cover the increase in exposure and the insurance I would now carry. This insurance was offered by the Pool a few years ago but no body was interested.

[Agwaggon]

Turboman. What you are assuming there is that you have the chance to netiotate this matter.
The facts are though that as we sit here today doodling, these things havn't been negioated at all. You and I don't have any insurance on this type of action and finally as you say this type of insurance was put foward a couple of years ago and I can garentee you 95% of ag pilots in this country didn't know anything about it! In fact I only became aware of it earlier this year myself.
No Turbo, we are very very vulnerable here contracting. No doubt about it. The test case will come the way things are going.
Also the accident I decribed was completly Hypo. A few PT6'S have shut down that way around the world and I ment no reference to the Wee Waa accident.

[Turboman]

I agree, the test case is only a matter of time. We probably should start protecting ourselves then. A written contract would be a good start. There are probably only 5% of contractors with a contract, if that. We will then know what is expected of us, we can negotiate, we can source insurance if we need it, or if we don't like it and can't reach a compromise we can leave.

I agree this insurance was not publicised widely enough, although the pilots that I know that knew about it said "why would I want to pay $5K for that, I don't need it".

Anyway, the margin is rapidly narrowing tax wise between high earning contractors and PAYE, especially over the next 12 to 24 months. It maybe safer to go back to PAYE.

[Lowlevldevl]

It is possible to have your 'client' operator have a notation on their insurance policy which "waives abbrogation rights".
This basically means the buck stops with them and protects you.
Not all operators would feel comfortable about this but when you consider that your 18-20% is for most of us no better or worse than the award. It simply gives you the same security you'd have as an employee. Me, I don't care how I get paid as long as I'm paid what I'm worth.......smart arse comments by PM only please.

[AT502]

It will all end in tears:{

Thats my forecast.

One day an operator is going to turn around and sue the pilot for an incident, but the operator needs to be in the position to do this with confidence, i.e. is his business squeeky clean?

Soon that day will come, my friends, and then lets have this discussion again then.

Or maybe a pilot may turn around and sue an operator for something?

I truly believe a contract pilot should have insurance like the one the pool offered a few years ago. To be a true contractor this needs to be in place anyway. I also believe in contracts between the pilot & operators, both sign on the terms & agreements of the work etc.

In a cynical mood today:E

AT502:cool: