Mandala a/c crashes at Medan

[Alpha Leader]

Mandala a/c crashes within one minute of taking off from Medan, according to news agencies. No details yet.

[SEAT 81A]

News report some 30 killed :(

A/C belongs to a buget airline enroute to Jarkata

From HKG news:

B737, 109 onboard, caught fire after crash, now 60+ dead. :ugh:

[Farrell]

JAKARTA, Indonesia - An Indonesian jetliner crashed into a residential neighborhood in the city of Medan one minute after takeoff Monday and burst into flames. The director of a local hospital said at least 60 people were killed.

The airport in Medan, the largest city on Sumatra island, is close to the center of town and surrounded by densely populated residential areas.

The plane was operated by Mandala, a low-cost carrier, and was heading to Jakarta when it crashed, Rizal, a witness, told Metro television station.

It was not immediately clear how many people were on board the plane, but Rizal said he saw at least 30 charred bodies at the accident site.

Firefighters were at the scene trying to put out the blaze, witnesses told the station.

The airport in Medan, the largest city on Sumatra island, is close to the center of town and surrounded by densely populated residential areas.

[alert5]

A Mandala Airlines Boeing 737-200 carrying 109 passengers crashed just after takeoff from Medan city on Monday.

The flight RI 091 was heading to Jakarta when it came down 500 metres from the runway into a crowded housing complex.

Edi Sofyan, a spokesman for the North Sumatra provincial government, said the death toll is around 100 and there are no reports of survivors. He did not make clear if there were deaths on the ground.

Syahrial Anas, a doctor, said at least 60 people were killed.

Indonesia's Transport Minister, Hatta Radjasa, said 109 people were on board while the airline's insurer said the jet was carrying 117 passengers and an unspecified number of crew.

Several senior government officials were on that plane. North Sumatra Governor Rizal Nurdin and a former North Sumatra governor, Raja Inal Siregar were heading to the capital for talks with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. The acting governor of Aceh is also onboard.

http://www.radarvector.com/2005/09/plane-with-more-than-100-aboard.html

[DanAir1-11]

(Unsubstantiated) Media report suggests that engine was on fire prior to accident and that aircraft was mushing through the air as it lost height. very unpleasant.

[readywhenreaching]

from www.jacdec.de

DATE: 05.09.2005
LOCAL TIME: -
LOCATION: Medan area (WIMM) / Sumatra
COUNTRY: Indonesia
AIRLINE: Mandala AL
TYPE: Boeing 737-230
REGISTRATION: PK-RIM
C/N: 22136
AGE: 24 y + 1 m
OPERATION: DSP
FLIGHT No.: _RI 091
FROM: Medan
TO: Jakarta
VIA:_-
OCCUPANTS:_PAX/CREW:_117
FATALITIES:_PAX: 100+CREW: x OTHER: x
INJURIES:_PAX: _x CREW: x OTHER: x
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT:_destroyed
On a late takeoff abort - possibly around or after V1 - the aircraft ran about 500 m beyond the end of the runway where it broke apart and caught fire. The 737 hit houses before coming to rest.
NOTE: This accident represents the 7th hull loss for Mandala AL and the 117th hull loss of an Boeing 737 airliner.

[A300Man-2005]

Not knowing the full facts or details of the other losses, but if this one is the seventh hull loss in the carrier's history, even allowing for freak accidents and other unavoidable events, one would think that the Indonesian CAA (or whatever it's called) should be taking a rather close look at the circumstancs behind the carrier's accident record.

[Jordan D]

Story from BBC News (including video of crash site) at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4214452.stm

Fairly short article though.

Jordan

[big fraidy cat]

There's a bit more news on this Reuter's link. Terrorism already being discounted!!

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-09-05T061842Z_01_FOR520781_RTRIDST_0_INTERNATIONAL-CRASH-INDONESIA-DC.XML

[angels]

The wires are reporting that at least 30 people have been killed on the ground as well.

Very sad.

[big fraidy cat]

This link had the data up within 30 minutes of the crash. Also gives weather info and dimensions of runway.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050905-0

[Sensible Garage]

PK-RIM B737-230 c/n : 22136 Lineno : 783

200781 first flight
110881 D-ABHK Lufthansa
290494 TF-ABY Air Atlanta Iceland
300494 TF-ABY Tunis Air
211094 D-ABHK Lufthansa storedd 211094
241194 PK-RIM Mandala Airlines

[Load Toad]

I am only a pax, have nearly zero knowledge of aircraft and have zero idea as to what caused this crash. With those caveats in place....

I used to fly Mandala when during the Indonesia / Asian crises they were one of the only airlines flying from Jakarta to Samerang (sp?). The planes were very old and though that may well be no indication of the safety of the thing the feeling I had on every flight (which only lasted <1hr) was one of at best, worry. The mix of elderly aircraft, falling apart aircraft interiors, 'strange' (lets say to a pax - 'abrupt') flying styles and poor service always used to make me very happy to get off the other end and sigh with relief.

This may well have no bearing whatsoever on this flight / incident but many of us who flew this airline certainly felt it was a question of when not if.

I apologise in advance if this is of no use to the proffessional flying community.

[MrNosy]

I don't know what Mandala is like nowadays but the fact that it has had '7 hull losses' since the airline started operations is meaningless. The airline's last 'hull loss' (also fatal) was in July 1992 - 13 years ago - with a Viscount. Todays tragic accident was the first 'hull loss' or fatal accident suffered by the airline with jets.

Just 'bean counting' the number of accidents an airline has had without detailed analysis of the full circumstances and probable causes is not much use and, even then, looking at accidents that happened years ago does not necessaryly tell you anything about the operator today.

[PK-KAR]

Those MDL 732s often fly out of MES at or near MTOW... any "extra weight" could result in catastrophe...

"Those guys slap on extra cargo, not tell the pilot and now they're getting burnt flesh at the end of 05... Hmm, enjoy the kickback $$ in hell! But why should I be the burnt flesh at the end of 05 if I can just take off 500kgs off the aircraft and slap that weight on as something else..." (someone from Mandala complaining on MES)

PK-RIM's brakes known to be a bit iffy comparing to others in the fleet. However, this may not be the crucial factor.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the investigations find...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/dinosat/DSC_0163.jpg

Pictures from the runway end safety area:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/dinosat/Image209.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/dinosat/Image208.jpg

Sad day... This could be the end for Mandala, already struggling to survive in the brutally overly competitive market in Indonesia dominated by "seat traders" not airlines!

The governor of North Sumatra and the former governor is amongst the victims. God knows how many on the ground was killed. Saw at least a couple of charred ground victims on TV... :(

Not all pax are killed. 8 are still in hospital (last count)... 1 escaped with bruises only, 1 with broken bones and bruises. 3 are known to have stabilised and is now back in critical stage... the other 3 I dunno... Glued to the news at the moment.

88 bodies in the morgue so far, incl 6 ground victims.

PK-KAR

Mandala499

[PAXboy]

BBC web news now reporting that "At least six survived" all at the back of the fuselage. One survivor, passenger Freddy Ismail, spoke to Indonesian radio from his hospital bed. "I could not believe it. After taking off, the plane really shook and then suddenly it plummeted to a main road on top of the cars below," he told El-Shinta.
Another passenger, Rohadi Sitepu, said all the survivors were seated in the back row of seats when an apparent explosion ripped through the front of the plane. Mr Sitepu said he escaped the wreckage by fleeing as powerful explosions erupted behind him.

Full story here. BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4214452.stm)
BBC: The plane entered service in 1981, but was not due to be retired until 2016, and received a full service in June this year

[PK-KAR]

Now reported 16 pax survived.

PK-KAR

[big fraidy cat]

I've heard for years and years, that most survivors of crashes have been seated in the back of the plane. Is this backed up by statistical data?

[lesenterbang]

Looks like the area surrounding the airport is very densely populated.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/456978/L/

[Alpha Leader]

Mandala was founded in 1969 by a foundation linked to the Indonesian armed forces. Not wanting to put too fine a point on it, but such ownership often suggests that a company could, if it wanted, operate without having to endure much interference from civilian authorities.

[SEAT 81A]

Latest TV news said that the plane may have hit power cables before the. Don't know if this is due to a slow climb......

[GrahamCurry]

>Latest TV news said that the plane may have hit power cables before the. Don't know if this is due to a slow climb......

Pull up, pull up . . .
Stall?

[Austrian Simon]

A local resident posted following message on our flight simulation forum:

"all of the survivors sat in row 20.

witness on the ground said that he saw the plane lift off just a few feet above runway but failed to continue climb. apparently the aircraft went into stall with nose pitching up high. aircraft hit ils localizer at the end of the runway, then airport perimeter fence before smashed into residential area.

rumors spread that the aircraft probably overwighted, because it's common practice in medan that the loadmaster often load the aircraft beyond mtow and fake the report to pilots. but this time, it was probably too much overweight. "

While this report is to be viewed with some caution (third hand or even more in between the chain), the observation looks very conclusive and precise possibly describing a CG problem, not the usual witness babble.

Simon

[Stubenfliege 2]

<<Latest TV news said that the plane may have hit power cables before the. Don't know if this is due to a slow climb......>>

If my memories don´t fail me, a GARUDA DC-9 crashed in 1987 on a approach to Medan.
While being on final approach in very bad weather, the a/c hit power lines (or a TV antenna, according to other reports) and crashed near the airport. Arround 20 dead.

With reagards,

Stubenfliege2

[PAXboy]

It is not unknown for some countries to load an a/c until all of the available cargo VOLUME is used, rather than all of the available cargo WEIGHT. Let us hope that is not the cause here as it is difficult to prove when the fire has taken the evidence. Any false documentation (held on the ground) would not have lasted very long either ...

[SEAT 81A]

I have taken domestic flights on a remote locations in Indonesia route a couple of times. It is a 24 seater old turbo prop (probably >30 years old). Not only is the cargo space fully filled.... They even put cargos on the corridor!

The hand carry is suppose to be 5kg. When our group "wegithed in", we just pay some money to the ground staff and we can take as much hand carry as we want!

[big fraidy cat]

Here's an updated story from Reuters, listing 47 dead on the ground.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-05T160330Z_01_FOR520781_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-CRASH-INDONESIA-DC.XML

[visibility3miles]

Indonesia Jet Crash Kills at Least 147
By IRWAN FIRDAUS, Associated Press Writer 24 minutes ago
An Indonesian jetliner slammed into a crowded neighborhood moments after a shaky takeoff Monday and burst into flames, killing 147 people, including dozens on the ground. At least 15 passengers survived, among them an 18-month-old boy, officials said.

The Mandala Airlines Boeing 737-200 was heading to Jakarta in overcast weather when it plowed into a row of houses 500 yards from the airport and skidded onto a busy road in this city on northeast Sumatra island. Witnesses said some people were on fire as they fled the wreckage.

Firefighters struggled to put out the blaze, which engulfed dozens of houses and at least 10 cars, in a midmorning rainstorm. It was the sixth major jet crash worldwide since Aug. 1.

The plane was carrying 116 passengers and crew, airline spokesman Alex Widjojo said. There were differing accounts on the number of survivors.

Airline spokeswoman Nining, who like many Indonesians goes by one name, said 16 people survived, including an 18-month-old boy and his mother.

Medan police chief Col. Irawan Dahlan said there were 15 survivors from the plane.

Transportation Minister Hatta Rajasa was quoted by the private Detik.com news Web site as saying 47 people on the ground were killed.

City hospitals also were treating at least a dozen residents, officials said.

Many of the flight's survivors were sitting in the back of the plane, passenger Rohadi Sitepu said.

"The plane was taking off, but suddenly there was a strong tremor and it jerked to the left and crashed," he told Metro TV from his hospital bed. "There was fire everywhere, from the front of the plane to the back."

Witnesses said the plane started shaking violently when it reached an altitude of about 100 yards before banking to the left and plunging to the ground.

"I saw at least 20 people running around with their clothes alight," said Awi, a shop owner. "They were shrieking in agony and shouting, 'Help! Help!'"

The cause of the crash was under investigation, but foul play was highly unlikely, said airline managing director Asril Tanjung.

Hundreds of policemen, paramedics and residents tried to evacuate victims, but flames and thousands of onlookers hampered efforts, said Syahrial Anas, a doctor overseeing the removal of charred bodies.

"We're having a hard time getting to the bodies because of the heat," Anas told The Associated Press.

Monday's crash follows five major airline accidents in August, the deadliest month for plane disasters since May 2002. Some 334 people died last month in accidents in Peru, Venezuela, Greece and Tunisia. A plane also overshot a Toronto runway and caught fire, but no one died.

At the Jakarta airport, dozens of relatives and friends of the victims cried upon hearing the news.

"I am waiting for my mother but Mandala just said that the plane crashed and she was on board," said Aryati, weeping as she spoke. "Her name has appeared on a list of victims on TV."

The dead included the governor of North Sumatra province, who was heading to the capital to meet with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

Medan, the country's third-largest city, has been a major staging point for tsunami relief operations in Aceh province, on the northern tip of Sumatra island. The international airport is close to the center of town and is surrounded by densely populated neighborhoods.

Mandala Airlines is a Jakarta-based domestic carrier founded in 1969 by a military-run foundation. Its 15-plane fleet consists mainly of 1970s-vintage Boeing 737-200 jets. In recent years, the financially troubled airline has been forced to cut services and fares to remain competitive.

The plane was nearly 25 years old and received its last comprehensive service in June, Mandala said. It had flown more than 50,000 hours and was due to be retired in 2016.

Indonesia's last jetliner crash occurred in February 2005, when 26 people died after a plane operated by low-cost carrier Lion Air skidded off the runway on Java Island.

The country's worst crash occurred in September 1997, when a Garuda Airbus smashed into mountains near Medan, killing all 232 people on board.

[egbt]

The BBC report is a little different from Reuters total >140 dead including 39 on the ground. :(

13 PAX got out

[vonbag]

Buongiorno.

Off topic correction to alleged "Associated Press Writer 24 minutes ago" I. Firdaus' article:

"in accidents in Peru, Venezuela, Greece and Tunisia."
=> in accidents in Peru, Venezuela, Greece and italy...

http://www.ansv.it/En/Index.asp

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184932

Over and out,
VB

[PK-KAR]

Mandala was founded in 1969 by a foundation linked to the Indonesian armed forces. Not wanting to put too fine a point on it, but such ownership often suggests that a company could, if it wanted, operate without having to endure much interference from civilian authorities.

Doesn't count much nowadays... Being a 100% civilian with enough brown envelopes you can get away with a lot more sins than Mandala.

13 PAX got out

Only 6 survived as I write this according the latest. The rest succumbed before today's daybreak.

PK-KAR

[Austrian Simon]

There is now an independent confirmation of the earlier report of a local resident, that the airplane did not manage to climb over the ILS antennas, ploughed through the antenna and a river bank before hitting the homes:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16511757%255E23109,00.html

Simon

[swh]

PK-KAR,

The first photo you posted claiming to show the crash location is a hoax. That photograph was taken late 2003, it is not a recent photograph.

The circle is just around some trees, not aircraft wreckage.

:mad:

[SeniorDispatcher]

Real Photos of the accident, not for the squeamish...

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState%7c1%7c0%7c28%7c0%7c0% 7c0%7c1%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c54680291%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c%7c0%7c 0%7c0%7c0%7c0&p=7&tag=2

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState%7c1%7c0%7c28%7c0%7c0% 7c0%7c1%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c54680291%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c%7c0%7c 0%7c0%7c0%7c0&p=7&tag=3

[lomapaseo]

PK-KAR,

The first photo you posted claiming to show the crash location is a hoax. That photograph was taken late 2003, it is not a recent photograph.

The circle is just around some trees, not aircraft wreckage.


I believe the picture as an accurate representation of where the plane crashed. So what's wrong with it?

[RiverCity]

I could not access thru Senior Dispatcher's URL. I posted my own here, same as his, and it worked when I opened a new Explorer, but did not work when I tried it in this post, so I deleted it.

Try http://editorial.gettyimages.com and poke around among the images for the one you want.

[SeniorDispatcher]

Don't know why that is..

If you go to the site, typing in "Mandala" results in about 160+ images...

Thanks for reposting a link...

[MOCA]

Crashed Indonesia jet may have had fuel problem
JAKARTA, Sept 7 (Reuters) - A preliminary investigation
into the crash of an Indonesian airliner that killed 149 people
has found a problem with one of the plane's engines, a
transport safety official told Reuters.
"During our preliminary investigation we have found a fuel
problem on the engine," said Setyo Rahardjo, head of the
National Transport Safety Committee.
A Boeing 737-200s has two engines, but Rahardjo did not say
which was at fault and stressed the findings were preliminary.
The disaster on Monday in Medan, Indonesia's third-biggest
city, killed 149 people, 102 of them on board Mandala Airlines
flight RI 091 and 47 others on the ground in a crowded
neighbourhood.



REUTERS

[PK-KAR]

After summing up the TV coverage and a few calls,

It appears that the aircraft overran, over the ditch (following the tree line just below the runway start (no not the threshold)), the fence is also on that line, One engine (presumably the left) deposited between the fence and the first house before the road.

According to witnesses, the aircraft hit the front of that house nose up (slightly to the left of the 05 approach centerline), landed a few meters afterwards, followed the road, the second engine is deposited there... The main wreckage stopped just before the tree still to the left of the 05 approach centerline but almost directly below it.

Last night the NTSC announced that it found deformity in the compressor on one of the engines (did not specify which one AFAIK). Some of us down here are assuming it's the left engine based on a Mandala pilot's detail on PK-RIM's high EGT readings from the No.1 engine in recent months.

However, with a Garuda 734 single engining after departing Medan yesterday morning, speculation went about the fuel supply at Medan Airport, until the afternoon/evening NTSC announcement. The GA 734's (PK-GWW) number 2 engine have been problematic recently, however fuel is not entirely dismissed yet as a cause of the GA incident and the Mandala 732.

Swh,
1. Where in this thread did I write that the photo was taken AFTER the crash?
2. If you look, the road that runs from the top left to the bottom right of the circle is where the aircraft rested. It's not just trees there mate.

Call me a hoaxer if you like, but that was not the intention. Anyone can see that the photo has no PK-RIM wreck anywhere within it. The intention of the photo was to give an idea on where the aircraft came to a stop and what was surrounding the airport, which, until the NTSC's graphic experts releases the final diagrams of the aircraft's path, would give those who'd like to know a much better idea than those diagrams found in the media.

If you think my intention was to deliberately mislead people here, then I suggest you buy me a ticket to go to Medan so I can either provide a photo of the actual crash site, or if you'd like to punish me instead, assign me to start scraping charred body remains off the street!

Sorry if I can only provide the next best thing...

PK-KAR

[khaosanroad]

PK-KR.

Disregard the accusations. I found your picture quite informative and I thank you for that.

[PK-KAR]

Sorry about the rant...
Had to spend the last 2 nights calming a trembling F/A whenever she saw the news...

PK-KAR

[swh]

lomapaseo & khaosanroad

PK-RAR posted this statement in Far East "I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum showing the crash site."

It clearly never did show the crash site, what it does show is someone approaching runway 05 for a landing 2-3 years ago.

If he wanted to show the 05 approach fair enough, no need to alter the image with "LOKASI CRASH" and also claim it was a picture "showing the crash site".

He has since said "should be rephrased into I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum to indicate where the aircraft rested, Sorry for the misunderstanding."

In light of the fake photos that arose from the greek accident, I think I had a valid point, or are you saying that those pictures were also "an accurate representation" and "quite informative" ?

:hmm:

[PAXboy]

swh I do not know you or PK-KAR but his explanation sounds as valid as your concern. May I suggest that you now accept his reasona and stop using :hmm: which is considered sarcastic.

[swh]

PAXboy,

:hmm: is hmm
:rolleyes: is roll eyes (sarcastic)

That post was addressed to lomapaseo & khaosanroad to consider their posts in light of what PK-RAR did not say in this thread, but said elsewhere.

The press would get crucified if they used a 2-3 year old photo and claim it showed "the crash site" from a few days ago.

If we expect the press to be careful with their words, it would be fair to expect the same or better from our peers.

:ok: (that’s an ok)

[PK-KAR]

Swh,
I'm not the press... I made a mistake of writing what I wrote without explaining it further in the far east forum, and you mentioned the fake here... However, that was that...

I think you had a valid point raising concerns thanks to the idiots who circulated the fake Helios photos but in this case others would find the picture as an informative description on where the aircraft crashed (yes, without the crash wreck being shown).

A picture of the actual crash site by a friend failed to materialize tuesday as it was closed due to the presidential visit (he landed there before the crash happened so no crash site photos from approach from him)... I guess by the time someone I know flies into Medan on a 05 approach, the wreck would have been cleaned up.

Enough on the pics... now with the investigation.

The NTSC announced last night that it found the aircraft engines' compressor blades had deformed. They're now sending the blades to Indonesian Aerospace to see what caused it and whether it caused a significant thrust output reduction which caused the aircraft to fail to take off.

A friend at the airline wrote: When I last used PK-RIM the EGT for the number 1 engine, with max reduced EPR of 1.96 or 93% N1 (OAT30C) the EGT reached 610C. The limits for the JT8D-15 is 630C (acceleration), 620C(t/o), 580C(MCT).

MES is a high load station. For the morning schedules, the passenger loads are high and same with the cargo. With the required fuel MES-CGK of about 10.6 tons. If taxi fuel is estimated at 600kgs, so the Gross Weight on impact (assuming accordance to weight limits and that MTOW had been reached) is 56.7 tons.

I shall not judge whether MES station likes to "manipulate" the cargo data. However, I once limited myself to a maximum regulated TOW (maximum weight to enable the aircraft to take off after factoring in aircraft limits, runway, and climb segments) to 50 tons. Normally with 50 tons gross weight, the aircraft should be able to taxi with idle thrust. However that time, the aircraft required significant thrust to taxi. I took the personal conclusion that the aircraft was over 50Tons. Since then I have taken a "safety margin" for myself and always reduce 500kgs from the maximum possible weight of the table.

Related to the weights above, I am quite sure that RI091 would have taken off with an EPR of more than 2.00 (>95% N1), hence the EGT would have exceeded 620C.

Guess we have to wait till the FDR has been deciphered.

Only public comments by the NTSC are:
1. Not terrorism
2. Black Boxes recovered.
3. No abnormalities in ATC conversation.
4. Weather as cause unlikely, can only be done by FDR analysis of aircraft trajectory.
5. Fuel problems (fuel lines? fuel quality?) has been issued.
6. Compressor deformation has been quoted and is investigated further.
7. Those who have taken pieces of the aircraft, please return them to enable the investigation to be conclusive. (Unfortunately, since it crashed into a densely populated areas, a lot of people have taken pieces of the aircraft away to sell as scrap... The NTSC has now appealed for the pieces to be returned so that hindrance to the investigation can be minimised.)

The media frenzy have started here... This morning one paper wrote that 3 tons of Durian was loaded and not in the manifest... There are other things been thrown in the air from a cellphone causing the crash to things to a freak gust, no claiming that the houses 300-500m from the runway end caused the tragedy... *shaking my head*

On a less serious note... SWH, Since when did I become PK-RAR ?

Btw, that photo with the "lokasi crash" was supplied by a local to Medan who visited the crash site himself... I hope no one's questioning whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not.

PK-KAR

[RoyHudd]

Aviation standards in Indonesia, and especially at fields like Medan, are rock bottom. Put it down to the usual mix of incompetence, corruption, and a third-world approach to professionalism. First-hand experience leads me to make these comments, after the fatal accidents in Solo City and Medan in the last 2 years. A great pity.

[swh]

PK-KAR,

The information from "friend at the airline" with the high egt indications was posted word for word elsewhere a day before you posted it on here, some of your other posts bear a significant similarity to information elsewhere.

I was of the understanding that the aircraft drifted away from the extended centre line while decelerating, I therefore do question "whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not"

:ok:

[Ignition Override]

Let's find out in a few months, if the NTSB or Boeing is allowed access to the flight data recorder, whether the flaps and stab trim were set correctly, required EPR/N1 and correct takeoff speed bugs set and complied with.

Let's also find out what other flightcrew members can learn from it, and about density altitude, winds and runway length, whether all checklists were completed etc. Actual takeoff weight, versus whether it was up to the max. runway, climb or structural weight limit? This can help experienced pilots and especially the more inexperienced, around the world. How about the aircraft's recent maintenance and the fuel quantity in each wing?

[PK-KAR]

Aviation standards in Indonesia, and especially at fields like Medan, are rock bottom. Put it down to the usual mix of incompetence, corruption, and a third-world approach to professionalism. First-hand experience leads me to make these comments, after the fatal accidents in Solo City and Medan in the last 2 years. A great pity.

U should feel lucky that you don't have to deal with it on a daily basis :)

SWH,
Well, I dunno who reads both places that's why :)

The initial description that the media gave also led me to believe that the aircraft crashed somewhere else... Until those sets of shots... the debris trail, then the "lokasi crash"...
Then the witness accounts began to take a more uniformed direction indicating where the aircraft went.

Nurries mate, I was also initially thinking "It couldn't have crashed that soon"...
--
Ignition,
Now the media is screaming "were there 2 tons of durian in the aircraft as "extra cargo"" ? But anyways...

But a TOW of 3 kgs below the MTOW on the loadsheet looks "iffy"... But if the culprits had done this "iffy" practice regularly and have gotten away with it so far, I'm sure something else must have happened that made it crash...

If "iffy" loadsheet was the/one of the cause(s) of the crash, this would not be the first time in Indonesia... Some people better be assigned to scraping burnt body remains off the crash site before being sent to being in charge of the loadsheet.

PK-KAR

[big fraidy cat]

This article appears on today's Radar Vector page:

http://www.radarvector.com/2005/09/roundup-indonesian-pilots-get-more.html

[PK-KAR]

Finally...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/dinosat/wimm.jpg

There you go SWH... finally...

PK-KAR

[UNCTUOUS]

Apparently it's slowly emerging that the Mandala crash at Medan may well be a repeat of the PK-LID 737-200 crash (Lionair) in Jan 2002 at Pekan Baru.

outlined at this link (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020114-1).

No flap deployed for take-off....

Sounds feasible and matches survivor and eye-witness statements of a/c shaking from rotate.

[gengis]

Does the 737-200 have a takeoff configuration warning?

[catchup]

Yes, it has.

May also sound when exceeding 10.000' cabin altitude.....

regards

[gengis]

Thanks Catchup. I know this is still very preliminary but if flaps were not in the takeoff setting & the CVR has been recovered, would anyone know if the takeoff config warning was blaring away during the takeoff roll?

[Centaurus]

You will find this hard to believe but I saw a captain (from some place just north of Australia), take off from brakes release in the simulator with flaps up ignoring the takeoff warning horn all the way down the runway. The F/O just sat and watched impassively.

The F/O forgot to call rotate so the captain simply did not rotate which saved him from stalling. At 170 knots the aircraft was still boring down the runway horn blaring until the F/O said 'Sorry - Rotate" at 180 knots. The captain got away with it. If in fact this is what happened with the Mandala Airlines accident, then I can believe it. The lack of action by the F/O is a culture thing.
It is quite frightening to see these sort of chaps in command of 737's.

[HotDog]

From the Pekanbaru link above:
Failure of the maintenance to identify the real problem on the aural warning CB, causes the CB to open during the accident and therefore is a contributing factor to the accident."

It seems the aural warning CB was tripped so no takeoff warning would have sounded if they attempted to take off flapless.

[PK-KAR]

Lack of F/O action culture has disappeared from Mandala... Capts who didn't wanna play by the CRM were fired a while back... so did the F/Os...

It's more likely the compressor failure. A survivor may have seen fire coming out of the left engine during take off.

This would be consistent with RIM's high EGT from #1 and the compressor deformation found at the wreck.

The PK-LID case is well know that the crew were indisciplined (even by Indonesian standards). The aircraft was relatively light.

PK-RIM out of MES was heavy and at (or exceeded) MTOW. At 3000m of runway and no flaps the aircraft wouldn't have become airborne.

But then, who knows :(

PK-KAR

[punkalouver]

I know it has been a long time, but for those that are interested here is the final report. Takeoff atempted with flaps and slats retracted. Tail scraped runway on rotation. CVR was very poor but no takeoff warning horn sounded.

Always check your killer items before takeoff. Flaps, trims, speedbrake handle, maybe pitot heat. Anything else?

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/Final_Report_Mandala_PK-RIM.pdf

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Again? :ugh:

[CONF iture]

Punkalouver, thanks for the report.
It is a good reading, seems quite objective, no BS in sight.
Just curious, how have you been aware the report was out, 4 years later ?

[Sir Richard]

Report dated 5th February 2009 :8 "Only" 3 1/2 years !