Indian government mandates 6 months notice period for jumping ship

[rsoman]

Indian aviation is booming. And pilots are making the most of it. Now Government has said enough! Risk loss of licence if you dont give notice period of 6 months!

Full details here in the DGCA website

http://www.dgca.nic.in/cars/D7X-X2.pdf

Cheers

[unwiseowl]

Just like FlyBe then, except they thought of it first!

[A330AV8R]

A sure case of sour grapes Id say ! what's the deal with the these D@#A :mad: ?

However if you got enough clout to get an NOC there and then from your company , then your off the hook as it clearly mentiones in the CAR .

This is how we Put an end to the aviation boom Lads !



:E

[lizardking]

The Indian Commercial Pilots Association (ICPA) today said it was contemplating challenging the directive of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) making it mandatory for pilots to give a six-month notice as it "violated" not only the labour laws but those governing contracts too.

"It is against the Constitution and is violative of the fundamental rights, the labour laws and the laws governing contracts," Capt Nahar Singh, President ICPA's Delhi unit told PTI here.

Maintaining that DGCA was an authority to issue pilots licenses and had no locus standi on the contract between a pilot and the organisation they were serving, he said the ICPA would be writing to the Civil Aviation Ministry, the Law Ministry and DGCA on the matter before filing a writ petition.

Aviation sources said several airlines, including the new ones, had signed contracts with pilots providing for a one to three month notice period.

In a Civil Aviation Requirement (CAR) directive yesterday the DGCA said "it has been decided by the government that any act on the part of pilots, including resignation from the airlines without a minimum notice period of six months, which may result in last minute cancellation of flights and harassment to passengers, would be treated as an act against the public interest.

"Pilots, therefore, are required to give a 'Notice Period' of at least six months to their employer indicating their intention to leave the job and shall not refuse to undertake the flight duties assigned to them," the CAR said. The aviation sources said the circular amounted to "denial of right to work" and "forced bondage" as a pilot, who is on a contract with a provision of one-month notice period, would be bound to work for another five months under the new CAR.

They said a similar DGCA circular of 1993 was "struck down" by the Calcutta High Court in 1998 and the Supreme Court in 2001.

Observing that the DGCA was rightly concerned about safety of aircraft operations, the sources maintained that resignation of a pilot or disruption of a flight did not concern operational safety. It was the responsibility of the airline to provide for the passage of the affected passengers, they said.

On the "public interest" issue, they opined that a miniscule percentage of Indian population could be affected but this did not amount to public interest as quoted by DGCA.

www.outlookindia.com/pti_news

[Earl Hadlea]

Some very bizarre reasoning on the part of the Indian DGCA.

Under the most generous interpretation, there can be absolutely NO connection between the personal decision of an individual to seek the job of choice and a threat by the regulator to remove one's licence.

Surely there is enough ground swell within the Indian aviation community to have this one struck down as were the earlier proposals of 1993.

As for the "public interest" argument - What a load of codswallop.

[Yarpy]

Oh Gawd, I suppose it won't be long befor Tony Bliar and Nu Labour try something daft like that in Blighty.

[arrow1]

The new CAR is absolute rubbish. I wonder how such a requirement can be issued without thinking through some basics. In a supposed reform age in India, how government gets into the loop of terms and conditions of companies, particularly private ones beats me.
Has the DGCA any ideas how start-ups such as Go and Indigo are to get off the ground? I do not know how many pilots are in a position to give a 6 month notice to join a start-up. If such airlines cannot get any pilots from existing airlines, then the only source is expats on a long term contract till fresh CPLs can get the experience to qualify as commanders (or ex AF). What about the grand plan of Air-India Express. It definitely looks dead now, because no one can join them even if they offer double salaries. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
In any case, if an airline starts to get ugly on its employees, then do you carry on for the next 6 months with them.
I hope the ICPA or FIP goes to court and in the process cleans up the mess.

[Left Wing]

If the contract with the pilot and airlines says 1 mth notice, then DGCA:mad: :yuk: cant do a damn, will not stand in court.

It may be in effect for fresh pilots or new contracts.

Why is DGCA making life even more cr@ppy for Indian pilots? There is huge demand for pilots things should open up rather than hurdles being put by the govt.

DGCA:mad: :mad: :mad: :yuk: :yuk: :{

[rsoman]

Spare a thought for the management - (yeah I know this is the wrong forum).

Jet Airways started its ATR fleet - a small regional went bust!

Spice Jet/KF and Air India Express started - Sahara suffered.

So..........


Ever thought that just to fatten up your own pockets you may risk getting your ex colleagues into the dole?

Yeah. a pilot may have a greener pasture.but then a lot of other people in the airline may find themelves suddenly out of a job......

Sahara launcehd its Hub HYDERABAD in February .. by May it was in shambles without warning (ironic anyway that Air India Express the main culprit now suffers in reverse!).

And spare a thought for the poor SLF who are suddenly hit by delays and incoveneince all around.

All the start ups want to operate BOM DEL or BOM BLR but then thanks to people jumping ship without a care a lot of other routes suddenly are under serviced!

This new rule may not stand up in court as someone said (for existing contracts) but all the same I feel this has been the next best thing which happened to Indian aviation after the derecognition of the IPG!


And finally what does people like Indigo and Go and ABC and Tom and Jerry Airline waiting in the wings t do..

Well as I said earlier the BOM DEL or BOM BLR routes are not exactly routes where Denied Boardings are dime a dozen. On the contrary in some of the routes things have got to such a stage that upmarket KF sometimes have to price lower than downmarket Deccan.

The air transport system is not going to collapse if these new start ups are delayed a few months! On the other hand this may also be good news for the increasing no of Indians who have licences from places like US and OZ, as now the pressure for making the conversion process to Indian licences may be easier


Well done DGCA!

[9Ws]

I too heard recently that the conversion of foreign licences will be made easier now. High time perhaps!

[Hairy Chest]

DGCA makes CPL conversion easy? Whare are you getting this info from?
Will the DGCA ever wake up to this and be willing to loose their bribe money?

rsoman....you are not a pilot are you? :ugh: and you have never seen the underbelly of DGCA.

[Left Wing]

"conversion of foreign licences will be made easier now" pls help with more info on this

Rsoman, sorry mate guess you really dont know much about DGCA do you.

"Well done DGCA!" :yuk: :yuk: :mad: :mad: :{ :{ :mad: :} :yuk: :} :yuk: :{

[arrow1]

rsoman,
I respect your views though I disagree with most of them. They seemed to be biased against pilots. It is nobody's point that pilots should leave pax stranded on the apron while jumping jobs, but surely the notice period is a matter best left to pilots and their employers and defined in appointment letters/contracts. DGCA and public interest?! What about publc interest when an airline cancelled/rescheduled flights to ferry marriage guests in the not too distant past. And I would like to think that Go and Indigo serve public interest, so it is difficult to understand your contention that a delayed launch due to shortage of qualified pilots is okay.

[Hairy Chest]

How would the airline managment execs feel if the Govt told them no changing jobs, or the govt will see to it you never work again!

What kind of **** is DGCA trying to pull here. Will not stand a day in courts.
Public interest and Indigo cannot be uttered in the same sentence.....they are planning to bring in 300 xpat pilots what will DGCA do then? NOTHING ! coz Indigo will bribe the heck out of them.

sorry rsoman go back to your DESK JOB

[rsoman]

Hairy

If I were you, I would not gloat too much about the legal validity. The courts in India may be pro labour, but keep in mind that the flying community in India is considered by many (rightly) as not exactly living in the borders of the poverty line! Also read the circular carefully - the government has said "MAY debar" not "WILL debar". And also mentions "if in its opinion it is necessary to do so in the public interest".

Now there are some cases where the government can JUSTIFIABLY invoke this clause and win in any court in the land!

AIX for instance. If the block resignations (in reverse to Sahara) had happened around the last two weeks or so- be rest assured the government would have invoked the rule and would have won as well!

Why? - not only would AIX be loosing money in the peak period for its operations, but also a lot of the affected pax due to thhe resulting flight disruptions (and many of them labourers working in the Middle East who are struggling to make a living) would have lost their jobs because their reentry visas/visa validity would have expired because of the flight disruptions!

Try arguing in any court in such a scenario and hope to win-.....!

Sweet dreams!

[tomcat21]

I am supposed to take an exam (I believe its just on Indian regulations) within 90 days of getting my temporary license so that will be in Oct. I took my oral two weeks after I got here with DGCA and it was very short like five minutes. So why are some of you saying that people with FAA licenses will get shafted by DGCA?

[Flymani]

If it's a 6 months notice period for jumping ship, don't get on that ship!

How was this supposed to attract more pilots to India?

[jetsreams]

One has to go deeper and analyse the possible motives behind the DGCA CAR.

First of all the Indian DGCA believes in dealing with pilots in a high handed manner as they often act in connivance with airline management.The management of these airlines( especially a large state owned carrier) often bribe journalists with freebies and tickets to ensure that a constant tirade against pilots is maintained in the press to garner public opinion against them.A certain central government minister is known to have a personal interest in Jet Airways and hence a lot of so called ''reformist'' policies are tailormade to suit Jet's interests.Recent modifications to aviation policy allowing only private airlines with more than 5 yrs operational experience to go international and a new look terminal building at Mumbai airport are indications of the same.Infact Air India was almost arm twisted recently to sign a hub and spoke arrangement with Jet Airways to ferry AI's passengers on domestic routes.Another proposal to outsource Jet Airway's wet leased A340 on AI's routes was attempted to bail Jet out of soaring overheads caused by a temporary ban on its USA flights.

The DGCA CAR attempts to prevent an exodus of Jet Airways pilots and also creates an artificially generated shortage of pilots in the industry so as to encourage the induction of foreign pilots on contract.There are reliable sources who are aware of massive kickbacks being paid by pilot placement agencies to people holding key posts in the various agencies involved in the hiring proccess.

Also the Indian aviation boom is a bubble that is going to burst very violently.The bullish sentiment in the Indian stock markets has prompted many companies to float shares and make public share offerrings which are grossly overpriced and overvalued.Jet did that a few months ago and raked in millions of dollars.Many fledgling airlines are waiting to do the same, make a fast buck and shut shop.

There is a clear and obvious game bing played behind the scenes in Indian aviation so please don't get swayed by fancy words like "market reforms''.If the Government were so keen to improve facilities for the travelling public why did they shoot down theTATA-Singapore Airlines proposal to start a world class airline ? Because the TATA's are India's most respected company and do not pay bribes to do business.

If the Ministry Of Civil aviation wants to stop pilots from leaving the airlines at short notice in the"public interest'', I would suggest that it pulls up its own socks first and gets down to the business of regulating industry malpractices and halting massive corruption within its own walls. Indian M.Ps and Ministers switch political loyalties every second day - does that not affect public interest too?

[rsoman]

Well my friend

I thought the main provocation behind the DGCA CAR was what happened to Air India Express (along with Sahara).

But then the flying folks at Air India never wanted AIX in the first place didnt they, never mind the fact that the airline lost millions while atleast one aircraft was grounded due to lack of pilots and at a time where everyother airline on the roiute was making momey hand over fist becauseit happened during the peak traffic time for Middle East.


I am not saying for one moment the current minister doesnt have vested interests - but then which politician doesnt have?

Also I thought air India's interests were being protected atleast until the last year or two by the very same politicans who steadfastedly refused to liberalise bilaterals , making AI nice and comfy- keeping away competition and literally keeping the country at the mercy of AI and its unions (that some guys overenjoyed the hospitality is a different issue!).

Same goes for Air India being arm twisted for a hub and spoke arrangement. BOM is a convenient airport for Air India's pilots who are loath to be based elsewhere (with the exception of maybe DEL). It also meant that with bilaterals being left restricted , no major european airlines were allowed for a long time to start up from places like HYD BLR, COK or CCJ, while for the convenience of Air India's pilots
a lot of passengers were forced to take 6-10 hour transits at BOM.

The hub and spoke contract finally went to Indian Airlines (mainly due to the fact that Jet a/c was not custom bonded at that time) and the A320s operated by IC under the Air India code not only had very high occupancy rates but also helped Air India rake in money because the transit time was cut to 2 hours or less!

Not denying that the current minister is a bisaed person, but then dont try to paint the picture that 1, Air India was never the beneficiary of protectionalist government policies and 2, Your pilots are more angelic than god himself!

[boeingdream787]

Hear hear....!!! I fully and whole heartedly agree with the thoughts and sentiments that Jetsreams has so well managed to post.Rsoman,please go back to your desk job that you probably have either retired out of or been thrown out of.Grow up and stop winding a good thread!!Cheers all.:*

[rsoman]

Really missing the good old days of IPG arent guys where you could do anything and everything with a management which shivered everytime you coughed! Now that those wonderful days are over, it has come down to shedding tears over it in these forums..How the mighty have fallen....

Extract from Business Weekonline (July 3 2000) issue indicative of actins of the Maharajah's who used to wreck their Maharajah.....!

*********
The scene was all too typical. As an overbooked Air India flight prepared to leave Bombay for New York one day last February, the captain tried to remove some commercial cargo to accommodate four Air-India personnel and their belongings--all flying free on a holiday. When an Air India manager refused, the captain walked off the plane. Flight A101 finally got off the ground, but only after a four-hour delay while a new pilot was found.
**********


Full link here




http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_27/b3688212.htm

[boeingdream787]

Rsoman.This article is more than 5 years old.....!!!......:confused:

[rsoman]

Precisely - just an indication of how things were when the pilots and its union were the Maharajahs!

How things have changed for the good of everyone!

[jetsreams]

Well Rsoman, the articles you quote are exactly those that the management want people like you to read.However, the truth is often different.Remember "The Heart Does Not Grieve Over What The Eyes Cannot See."

However,I do concede that a few IPG elements might have acted high handedly in the past but that does not give you permission to taint the entire pilot community.

Furthermore, it certainly does not justify the illegal and unconstitutional acts of the DGCA and this CAR is one of them.

As far as your remarks about Air India pilots being Maharajahs are concerned, I am grateful that you have chosen an appropriate title to honour us.India is a country of 1 billion people with thousands of politicians,bureaucrats and generals.But there are only a handful of men and women that the entire nation entrusts with billions of dollars worth of flying equipment and the lives of millions of passengers.That Air India is one the safest airlines in the world with not a fatal accident in the past 20 years is a remarkble achievement of the same pilots that you deride so much.

Furthermore, may I remind the world that Air India is India's oldest airline and until recently the only International airline.Air India was founded by the pioneer of Indian aviation- JRD Tata.

AND JRD TATA WAS A PILOT !!!!!!!!!! He founded the airline because of his love for flying planes- not to employ bureaucrats to push reams of red tape , or sponsor the jaunts of politicians or coonive with the DGCA to create dodgy rules to destroy the spirit of aviaton.Air India's pilots are not only Maharajahs - they are founders of Indian aviation.A fact that,like you rightly pointed out, brings them pretty close to God !

And so I rest my case.

[rsoman]

Furthermore, it certainly does not justify the illegal and unconstitutional acts of the DGCA and this CAR is one of them.

********

What is preventing you guys from going to court then if it is uconstitutional? The courts in India are generally pro labour arent they?

The late JRD was a man reverred . But then you know as well as eveyone that if he was still in charge , the few high handed IPG elements (which atleast you have the grace to admit was taking things too far - thanks for that) would have been put in their places long back and may be you guys still would have had an union!

And who says I am against the entire pilot community - I have only steadfastedly crticised the highhandedness of IPG and now you yourself have admiited that there is some truth in that!

****
Air India's pilots are founders of Indian aviation
*****

I think a little grammatical correction in changing the "ARE" to WERE would be in order here!

Cheers

NB : I sympathise that some of you junior guys suffer now that you dont have much voice - but then you wont get sympathy from a few thousand people who lost their jobs when you guys who overdid the SAARS stuff and created havoc!
Apparently the courts thought likewise as well- when they refused to overturn the derecognition!

[jetsreams]

Sadly a few hundred hours of type experience on archaic aircraft and an intensely vindictive management are not the best of conditions for most young pilots to go to court.Indian labour courts take years to resolve issues and fighting court battles requires a rare gift not available to AI pilots - spare time.

[rsoman]

Tough Luck then - Atleast be thankful you still have a job and very well paid at that!
A little hardwork doesnt hurt - althought it is major change from 3-4 years back!

[MysticFlyer]

This really all sounds very good,

unfortunately it's been a very long time that we had to suck on the hind t@t. Taking bashes and bruises from CAA's to Ops Managers and the high:yuk: & mighty Human resource:yuk: :yuk: people.

Payback is better working conditions, salaries (always a good motivator, actually the only one!):}

The industry is really on the up, with only a bunch of winners! Pilot's can enjoy a positive trend in working conditions again, customers gain with a healthy competion framework that will be encouraged. No-one would like to see pax stranded, surely not the two guys upfront, .....means they can't fly!!!!

The Mystic 1