Getting instruction with pax in the back

[farmpilot]

Hi all

Just wondered if anyone could help me out....... I was in Miami last week and wanted to do some sightseeing. I spoke to a company that had R44's on their books to see what we could do. I didn't have my licence with me at the time but still wanted to have a pole around the city. The pilot that I spoke to wouldn't let mrs farmpilot sit in the back if I was flying, so was just wondering if this is a specific FAA helicopter thing 'cos I've done it many times before in both fixed and rotary in other parts of the world.

Thanks all

farmpilot

[Whirlygig]

Because you didn't have your licence on you, you were being treated as any other student pilot. Pilots under instruction cannot carry passengers. This is a JAA rule as well.

If you've done it before, did you have your licence and the flight charged as Self-Fly Hire?

Cheers

Whirlygig

[farmpilot]

Whirlygig

Yes that'll be it then, always had the paperwork on me.......

Thank you!

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Where is it written that on a dual instruction flight you can not have passengers on board?

We wrote into our FTO training manuals that it was allowed to carry pax on dual training flights, The idea being it gives the student the feel of the heli at all up weight. I've worked in 3 different JAA countries which all excepted this.

[farmpilot]

Thomas

I've done that before but thought it was a 'crew' thing being that they also held a licence or where students...... The mrs makes tea down the back so only holds a hostie licence:ok:
It does seem like a weird ruling as there is a com pilot able to fly if something goes wrong.

farmpilot

[Johe02]

I understand the rule to be pax in the back. . "if they have an interest in learning to fly"

FAA - don't know

[muffin]

A student pilot is flying on the instructor's licence so there is no reason not to have back seat pax. Certainly commonly done in the plank world and AFAIK it is the same for helos.

[rotornut]

Done it lots of times in a 206 here in Canada BEFORE I got my CPL. Can be bad for the ego, though, if you foul up:\

[HeliMark]

There are no FAR's on someone in the back while instructing.

[puntosaurus]

ThomasTheTankEngine See extract from article 21 of the ANO below.

Members of flight crew – requirement for licence

21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order

(b) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:

(i) he is at least 16 years of age;
(ii) he is the holder of a valid medical certificate to the effect that he is fit so to act issued by a person approved by the CAA;
(iii) he complies with any conditions subject to which that medical certificate was issued;
(iv) no other person is carried in the aircraft;
(v) the aircraft is not flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the conducting of flying tests; and
(vi) he so acts in accordance with instructions given by a person holding a pilot’s licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, being a licencewhich includes a flight instructor rating, a class rating instructor rating, a flying instructor’s rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating entitling him to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown

However a colleague of mine recently told me that there is a recent UK training.com communication from the CAA which relaxes this requirement, but I can't find it yet.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Pontosurus

That does not say that on a dual instruction flight you can not carry pax.

What you refer to in paragraph (b) it clearly states pilot in command, on a dual flight the FI(H) is PIC not the student.

(b) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if

Logically when should a new pilot feel the heli at AUW? When he first fly’s alone with pax?

I’ve written FTO manual's for lots of different companies in the UK, Belgium and Holland. I always write into an FTO manual that pax can be carried on a dual instruction flight to this date it’s never been commented on by the various CAA's.

[TorqueStripe]

I don't have too much insight in the insurance business, but could imagine that especially in the US with a Robinson-Pathfinder Insurance, that there is a clause in the insurance policy prohibiting pax carrying while receiving instruction.

[Lightning_Boy]

When I did my R44 type (only had a PPL then) I was given the option to take the wife up as a passenger, at the end of the day its the instructor who is PIC.

[puntosaurus]

Very cunning ! That's an interesting interpretation, and especially if no-one has pulled you up on it, looks quite plausible. Is the flying lawyer available for a free online consultation ? Whirlygig, any idea where your view originally stemmed from ?

[chopperpilot47]

I can't find anything about carrying passengers whilst giving instruction in the USA. the instructor is PIC with a commercial licence so I can't see why not.

Chopperpilot 47