AUH - a few procedures

[TMAguide]

The purpose of this thread is purely to attempt a better understanding between pilots and ATC's in AUH, and hopefully result in a better relationship. The last thread which was removed had AUH unwillingly drawn into a battle and ripped to threads by the likes of Big MR and Buttiron. I hope these points I put forward help, and I look forward to hearing your views.

1. If there is no traffic to affect your descent into AUH, the following restrictions will prevent a continuos descent.
On the left hand downwind for Rwy31 there is noise abatement for the city (certain night times) and a palace (24hrs) which is GND to 6500'. Therefore the clearance is ususlly only to 7000'. Having past that there are airfields below with airspace up to 3000', so the descent to 4000' is issued. Once past that, there is a mast which allows us to decend you to 2200' until almost on the left base. Only then will you get 2000'.
2. The right hand downwind (when approaching from the west) would also be restrictive as you would have to cross the departure path.
3. From the East, Al Alin's airspace upper limit varies, and via co-ordination, we can drop you down to 130A and at the best of times to 70A, depending on the activity there.
4. LVP's are determined from official MET equipment which is displayed to ATC. This is querried when the info conflicts with what the tower ATC observes, however we are restricted to using official information. During LVP's there is a requirement of 20nms spacing on final.
5. Push back at your discretion. This is done for a number of reasons, mainly as the ATC can't see what is behind the aircraft. He will however not push two aircraft that will conflict, it is purely for apron movements.
6. On departure we are required to check your altimeter read out with our label, hence we ask if it has not been passed.
7. Speed restrictions, there are none in Class C airspace unless issued by ATC.

I would like to ask a few questions,
1. Why do some flights reduce speed early (on early downwind) to 220kts or less?
2. Why is it important to know your number in sequence?
3. Do you prefer a 'square circuit' ie one downwind heading, one base heading, and what is an ideal base turn, 5nms parallel with rwy?
4. Would you prefer clearance on start up or on taxi.

TMAg:ok:

[Ray Darr]

Ah...a good thread. Nice to discuss this over a "cuppa" (or preferably, a brewski!). And this could even be "friendly"! ...so LETS ALL KEEP IT THAT WAY (friendly)...PLEASE!!! :D

Your information, and all the details of the "WhyDoTheyDOthat?!" is great. Thanks - it is appreciated.

A question on your third point: Is there any discussion to co-ordinate Al Ain's upper airspace to cater to the busier aerodrome, AUH?

On to YOUR questions - my opinion, my answers (open to discussion!):

1. Why do some flights reduce speed early (on early downwind) to 220kts or less?
...see answer to your number 2. And if you can tell us to expect an early turn, we'd GLADLY slow down early for you. Anticipation is usually the trick in slowing early. Nothing worse than screaming along fat, dumb and happy (glad I am just happy...) and going the wrong way (away from Terra Firma Runway, I mean) when suddenly the vector is miles shorter than expected. Anticipating an early turn is why crew slow down. A heads-up helps. PLEASE! :D

Why is it important to know your number in sequence?
...see answer above. Basically (re-stating things here to drive this home...), to slow down and prevent barrelling along number 7 in sequence and turning base somewhere over Al Ain...

...or it could mean the crew up front forgot to hit the Seat Belt Signs "ON" at top of descent, and they want to know how long they can loiter so the crew in the back can get things tossed away in the bins and get the SLF to "sit up, buckle up and shaddap" for landing...

Seriously, 20 mile downwinds (NON LVP!) are not uncommon at AUH (and shouldn't be needed if co-ordination with UAE, etc, to slow inbounds down way back). No offence meant - the long downwinds are sometimes a bit much. Right, gang?

Do you prefer a 'square circuit' i.e. one downwind heading, one base heading, and what is an ideal base turn, 5nms parallel with rwy?

Why do they have to be "square"? A continuous turn, from downwind to finals, works great. The typical speed on downwind to base is around 210 to 225 Kts. That radius should be closer to 2.5 miles (do the math...). So instead of making the downwind 5 miles, try HALF that distance, and the base "turn" becomes one continuous arc. Saves time, and the flight management systems can handle this (even in the old dinosaur I drive!). All we need is you guys at the scopes to let our little blips cut in a bit more closer than has been done. Thoughts?

And how about a novel idea - let the crew's self-position. Or have the upper-managers design arrivals that would allow this. It won't be long until DXB II is built a darn-lot closer to AUH, and that will force some serious redesigning of the space above all that sand. Get ahead of things and start planning that now. With speed control, vectors could be a thing of the past. Yes, that's a big of a simplification but I'd like to think positive. Vectors all over the sky is just such a waste.

Even a simple set of arrivals would save headaches, time, and especially nowadays, fuel. Think about it. Please. :D

Until then, when traffic is light, how about self-positioning (even - GASP - OFFER it?!) a bit more often (keeping in mind the restricted airspace you mentioned...). We DO appreciate vectors when the crud makes it almost CAT II, but when you can see across The Gulf, let the crew's line up on finals themselves. Please. :D

4. Would you prefer clearance on start up or on taxi.
Clearance could - no strike that - SHOULD - be given a LONG time before starting pushback. How about 10 to 20 minutes before ETD, like most places? DXB doesn't suffer by doing it, nor does most of the other places (outside of the region, that is). Heck, you could even pave the way for other ATC units around you to follow suit. DXB, then AUH...what next...clearance ahead of taxiing in MCT, BAH, DOH?! My word that would be progress!

...Change the rules, ATC managers / Civil Aviation...and things could move along faster! PLEASE! :D

Getting clearances while taxiing is simply Old School. Bin it. Fast. PLEASE. :D

Oh - did I say PLEASE? :D

One thing - the winds up there can steer us off course. And the winds at 2,000' can differ quite a bit from the surface. Not everyone in the dark room that steers us, where you work, seems to recall this. (RE-READ the "NOT EVERYONE" before you flame back, PLEASE!) :D

Thanks for the info. I'm by far an expert on what happens up there, but I hope some of this helps both sides of the scope.

Cheers,
R.D.

PS - Change the ATIS. PLEASE! :D

[ruserious]

Answers IMHO
1. Depends on the altitude you are being held to, if you are high, you bring back speed to reduce energy. A lot of airlines suggest min clean in the downwind which can be around 200-220kts
2. Situation Awareness and to allow you to understand how much energy you are going to have to lose. Track Miles is better, but rarely accurately given.
3. My preference, all I am looking for is the quickest circuit that allows me safely to get rid of my height and speed to configure for a stabilised approach. Don't care what shape it is.
4. Rule of thumb as taught to me by old timer. You can tell how competent an ATC system is by how soon you get your clearance. 3rd world clearances are late, incomplete and chaotic. Listen to LGW or LHR to hear how it should be done.

[Abu]

Nice Topic and I hope it can continue in a polite manner so that ATC and pilots alike can learn something and improve the procedures...

I'm not sure if you pliots know but there is a variety of restricted airspace blocks around AUH which may influence the descend of your aircraft. The Military around AUH are very unpredictable, and what they decide we have no control over. We try our best to get you on the ground in the circumstances.

As for ATC Clearances...I personally prefer if you called on stand for clearance as then I can plan that you will be pushing back in approx 5-10 mins. Bear in mind that we have to pass your requested Flight Level to Approach (who pass it on to Area for preplanning) so it takes a few minutes to get your squawk.

As for the Al Ain airspace, they control it and offer it to AUH controllers when then are not busy so we can offer you lower(usually in the eveing times.) Al Ain is a where most of the UAE air force complete their training and its a non-radar environment. What I mean is that when we restrict you to 13000 or 10000ft the area may be active with aircraft but without transponder so you cant see them on TCAS (and nor can we on radar.) In this case you can expect descent most times when you have just passed Rovos. ( I not 100% on this but I believe the B763's descent profile requires a few more track miles to touch down but can only clear you for further when its safe to do so. If you need a few miles ask us for a slight turn to the left to establish early for ILS RWY31.)

When you guys and gals are heading our way via Retin (ie from overhead Dubai airspace) we talk to you directly from UAE Area and have specific points at which we can descend you further. You sometimes ask for descent and we have to tell you to standby. In this time we have to ring DXB who are always busy and take a while to answer. We talk to the DXB co-ordinator who then has to clear it with the relevant DXB controller before getting back to us with the ok to descend. (I'm not complaining about DXB, I only have to scroll my radar up a bit to see that you have a lot of aircraft on frequency)

AUH approach is a one man position. Our co-ordination procedures (and telephone system) were established a long time ago. It takes a lot of time to organise just one aircraft or VFR heli into one of the 3 military airports near AUH. One of the military airports only have AFISO's so we have to spoon feed them. The military guys and their heli's are training. I know they have to learn sometime but as an ATCO they are unpredictable, have hearing problems and they believe themselves to be above the law. We spend a hell of a lot of time trying to get simple instructions through to these guys which is why sometimes when scheduled traffic call when dont reply straight away. (I'm not joking when I say that there is potential for a controller to be involved in an incident DAILY just with the military traffic.) As controllers we have zero job security - one incident thats our fault and we are on the next flight home. Sure we have a co-ordinator for the busy periods but it does not help when Police34 is heading the wrong direction and decides not to reply to you anymore!


Speaking from my own personal experience I try my absolute best to help pilots out, regardless of the airline. My philosophy is that the faster I can get you on the localiser and the faster I can get departures up and towards their exit points then my life is made easier. I dont want to talk to you for any longer than I have to (no offence) because there is always more planes on the way in and out.

When I arrived here in AUH I was surprised by the amount of very restrictive procedures. I could improve these myself but as anyone who has been in the Middle East for while knows this a long drawn out affair. One of our most competent ATCO's recently got promoted to the management office and is slowly making inroads towards improvements. He has his work cut out to make changes but he is getting there! Until then I (sometimes unfortunately for pilots) have to enforce current procedures to save my own ass in the event of an incident.

Hopefully this topic can clear up few points. Constructive criticism is always welcome. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. I'll either give you our reasons from the ATC perspective or raise it as concern within ATC here,

Thanks,

Abu.

Forgot to expain the spacing between inbounds after sunset...

Our Procedures Manual "recommends" ( stressing the inverted commas!) 10nms between arriving aircraft.

I know that you will naturally slow down as you near the ground. I know that the runway is long with plenty of taxiways. I know that these taxiways have both edge lights and centreline lights to help you identify them. I know that if you are number seven for approach and number 1 is on short finals then you have atleast 61 track miles to touch down assuming all aircraft are equally spaced and at the same speeds.

From personal experience I found that some (not all) local controllers are completely 100% by the book. If you have a departure, you do need more than 5 miles between inbounds. Sometimes though, its like talking to a brick wall when there are no departures involved.

When you get 2 like minded people in TWR and APP things will work smoothly with 5 miles between arrivals but with staffing and rosters this cant happen all the time. Not much I can do then!

Abu.

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi to all that use the Abu Dhabi TMA :)

There isn't much to add to what Abu and TMAGuide have written about why we do what we do.

We have had the ATIS updated by the person that originally recorded it, so the excerpt about 'HIGH SPEED TAXIWAY NOVEMBER......' should be a bit more bearable. We are sorry to not have picked up on it earlier.

I also have a few questions/polite requests to the users of AUH...

- Please (pretty please) can you contact radar on getting airborne with "ABC123 airborne passing xxxx feet". We are required by the regs to verify each and every aircraft's transponder when getting airborne. It will save us the hassle of (maybe levelling you off in the process of) asking you. We would really appreciate it.

- When inbound, report to us "DEF456 passing FLxxx". Also, please mention any headings and or speeds imposed by ACC. Additionally, (and seeing that we have now had the ATIS 'repaired' and you don't have to 'tune out' when the abovementioned excerpt came up) please report to us Total Persons on board. Again, regulations require us to have obtained those figures of all inbound aircraft prior to hand-off to tower. You help us and yourself at the same time, because sometimes we may be busy and forget to ask you, and I have seen some controller ask at the most inopportune times (ie LLZ intercept) for the number. I apologise for those occasions, but some people have very (and I stress very) limited knowledge of what goes on on the flight deck.

- On startup, all we need is "GHI789 Standy Xz, request push/start for XXXX FLxxx, and xxx total persons on board". This is everything we need, and will save us from having to ask you for the information. Again, we need to have the total on board prior to clearing you for take-off.

- We realise that the various operators here have certain speed limitations imposed by operators. Would someone from the respective users be so kind as to advise us of what exactly they are?

- On more than one occassion I have had crew slow from the instructed speed without asking. Please (again, pretty please) ask us beforehand - you may not see anybody on TCAS (he may be inbound from the opposite direction), but we really won't impose a speed for no reason. Again, if you can't comply, just advise us 'Unable to comply' and we will sort something out. It just becomes very difficult when you have 5 inbound, and you are number 3 or so, and the issued speed becomes a problem, thereby complicating the issue. While we are on the subject of speeds, I will normally ask for around 240kts until abeam the field, 220kts prior to base and no more than 200 before intercept. Is that acceptable to you as the users? Please comment.

- Here is a tip - which is particular to the left-hand ILS approach for 31. Due to the restricted OMP49 (which is SFC-65A), could you arrange the descent to be abeam the AUH VOR at 65A? I am sure that if you get vectors for the regular 8nm intercept, there will be enough track miles for the descent. Also, see next point.

- Many users are requesting vectors for 'a short ILS'. This is highly feasible for the R/H ILS onto 31, and the L/H onto 13. It's impractical for us to vector to R/H 13 - you may have noticed hardly ever getting that, well it's due to the position of OMP49. Getting back to the short ILS's, that just leave the L/H 31. Now, there is a mast to the south of the field (Mohawi Mast), which is 1149' tall. This required us to stop your descent off at a minimum of 2200' until you are clear of this mast. This means you need to establish at +-8nm from 2200'. So, please bear with us, unless you are happy to 'chase the glide', we can't turn you in very early.

- When vacating the runway, when you read-back you taxi clearance, perhaps include your aircraft registration? It would save us asking you, as we are required to obtain it from each aircraft inbound.

- Clearances. Enough said. Please call for these before start-up if you want. I have absolutely no objection in issuing these prior to start. In fact, this is the only airport where they are issued on taxi. Although, I did ask a 767 pilot yesterday, and he advised he prefers the clearance on taxi. The ball is in your court here - nothing is stopping you calling for clearance before start.

- Familiarise yourself with the fix NIBAX. This fix is the 'begin' point of G462 to BALUS. We are required to send you there if you are routing to the north-east. N563 is not available to departures from AUH, as it is ONLY and en-route airway.

- When approach has advised you that you are number 4 (or whatever) for rwy 13/31 - please don't ask for the opposite runway. This question may be at the most inopportune time, which may result in a snappy 'Negative'.

- If a controller says "Stand by", he means it. Please don't wait for 5 seconds and call again. If you honestly think we have forgotten about you, then by all means you are welcome to call again. The frequency may not be busy, but you may not realise I have just called approach to find out if the runway opposite to what's in use is available for you so we can plan your pushback to fit in with our traffic. Also, the tower ATC handles two operational frequencies at all times. One is for you, and the other is for vehicles. There are just sooo many transmissions that occur at the same time, we have to go back and ask for the message again. I would dearly love to have a 'coupling' feature that enables vehicles to hear ATC and likewise. Obviously a ground controller would solve the problem, but I honestly don't see that happening.

These requests/suggestions are put up here in the utmost respect to our users. You will find that things may just be a little smoother by helping us, and ultimately yourself, out.

As mentioned by my colleagues above, Abu Dhabi approach radar is a one man control band. We have to liase with 7 different sectors, and they could all be phoning us. Please bear with us. At best we have a co-ordinator for 2 hours only during the morning, which helps to a certain extent by taking away the hassles of the phone-calls. But that's it, when we have a very busy sector, you have just the one controller managing all the traffic.

Furthermore, none of this message is directed at any single airline. I would dearly love some contructive feed-back from ALL operators using Abu Dhabi. There are many of us that have no qualms meeting up sometime with the users, so any issues could be discussed maturely so we both understand why some things are done the way they are.

And lastly, we are all human. To err is human. Each human has different limitations. ATC's and pilots alike. This varies with aptitude for the job and to a large degree interest in aviation. We all have off-days, but I honestly try to give my best service to users every time I plug in.

Thanks for listening, and I look forward to your feedback.

:ok:

Sherif

Ray Darr

I missed some of your questions you raised. Very good points there old chap.

I shall attempt to address them forthwith....

- Al Ain CTA. Well during the daytime, they have MANY movements that transit a little area called PORTA which to you would be OMR55. This OMR55 is active up to 70A, which means we descend you after NOBTO to only 80A. Unfortunately for us, I believe that Al Ain use their CTA tremendously during the daytime hours, when they have (literally) hundreds of military jets and turbo props transiting between themselves and Al Dhafrah.

- As for the 20nm downwinds - I have seen some, and may even be guilty for one or two. Area control don\'t really do any sequencing for us. They are only required to give us 10nm between succeeding inbound arrivals on each route. So often in the evening we have 5 or 6 inbound from BOXAK, maybe 1 from ASROM/RETIN, and another 3 or 4 from ROVOS/NOBTO. All nicely 10nm spaced, but all 10 or 12 estimating within the same 10 min period. Add to this our issue of the restrictions on the R/H 13 app, you sometimes get hideous turns and long downwinds. Add to that what Abu has mentioned about some insisting on 10nm spacing, you quickly get the drift that getting 10 aircraft in requires 100nm of spacing. (*^#$(* is all I can say, as it is really frustrating. Remember, we are just one man behind the scope at the busiest 'schedule' time of the day. We are trying to change things, by I have been advised things take time to change. I believe him.

- As for self-positioning, I had an A320 request it for the first time the other day. Fine by me, but I am not aware of issues surrounding us offering the said self-positioning. At my last employer, we were strictly forbidden to offer visual approaches. I will endeavour to mention that you are number 1, so you can request self positioning. Will that help? I won't go into STARS now (see end of point 2 hehe)

- We have to initially place you on a 5nm+ downwind to keep you clear of traffic departing on the standard departure. Our radar minima is 5nm, so we are unable to do less than that.

- No flames here mate. I am all to aware of the word 'drift'. I workd in a place that was notorius for it's wind. But again, a lot of this comes down to ability. I realise this isn't all controllers, but, well, you know.

- Just a quick question on descent profiles. I have noticed that many aircraft just plummet out the sky when they get descent. When from ROVOS side (or BOKAX) and you have been told radar vectors to ILS 13 (or ILS31), why be maintaining 4000' nearly 20nm from the VOR (nearly 40nm to landing)? This comes into play with regards to speed restriction compliancy, and fuel burn. We won't give you lower than 4000 until abeam the field, because the SID climbs automatically to 3000.

CHeers again :ok:
Sherif

[ironbutt57]

Would probably enhance traffic flow greatly, and relieve workload on both sides of the table if they had some RNAV arrivals here like in Dubai...then us drivers would know our track miles remaining on approach to more efficiently plan our profiles for descent...what do the atc folks think about this??? would it make your life easier as well???....

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi IronButt57,

RNAV STARS maybe be great if you're number 1 (as per the self-positioning request made by Ray Darr), but in the evening when it's busy with 10 or so inbound, my experience with STARS in the past lends me to believe I can't see it helping as much as we would like, we would still have to take you off the star for sequencing. We often get the estimate for traffic from Muscat and Doha quite 'late' compared to all the others due to their proximity, so that often forces us to change our sequence. And as the changes we require are normally unable to be obtained by speed alone, we are forced to dog-leg or extend downwind.

As mentioned in my earlier post (and by Abu as well), when we have to give tower 10nm spacing between successive inbounds, it makes sequencing 10 or so inside a 40 mile TMA tricky.

I know what the Dubai procedures look like, but I have never been to Dubai to see them worked. What percentage of the time are you left to fly the full arrival?

I also mentioned earlier, things take time to change here. We have been campaigning for the ditching of the 10nm rule at night for a while. I will investigate if we could ever expect some sort of STARS for Abu Dhabi and report back.

Cheers
Sherif

[ironbutt57]

Thanks for that a good "fam visit" to the facility might be extremely enlightening...especially for us ex-usa blokes who are used to much tighter spacing, and maybe not fully aware of the constraints you face "behind the scope" as well as for you guys watching what we face from our end....you're sure always welcome to join me for a tour...rpovided it can be sorted out with our mgmnt folks....something we did in the states...never seen it here......crack a few tinnies at Rockwell's 2morrow night...be there :cool:

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi IronButt57,

Rockwells tomorrow night, we'll do our best to be there. I am night shift with a few other expats tonight and I will be sure to get them to tag along...

A couple of us expats have been trying for a good while to get management on our side to get visits organised by both sides, so you can see first-hand what we deal with. So far, we have been pretty much stone-walled, but are still pushing for it to happen. Likewise, you and all other users of Abu Dhabi are most welcome to pop in for a visit at the Approach Radar hall at the airport (we don't work with area).

You are right - there is absolutely no interaction with the users of the airport. When problems (or misunderstandings) pop up, they just fester. That in my opinion is detrimental to the relationship between ATC and pilots.

As you say, for the ex-USA blokes, what we serve you up with may be diabolical. But unfortunately we are bound to the rules that have been made, whether they be right or wrong.

See ya tomorrow night.

Cheers
Sherif.

[ETOPS]

IShotTheSherif

Now this is more like it! An intelligent exchange of ideas - I've learn't a lot already.

Two mentions of "regulations require it" 1) total on board & 2) A/C registration.

Could you not get the figures for TOB from the airline or handling agent? As for registration, does it not appear on your flight info strip as it is filed on the flight plan..........

Operating into AUH on Wednesday so will bear your very useful comments in mind.:ok:

[TMAguide]

Well chaps, dunno how you feel. but I already have a better idea of what you guys prefer, and hopefully you understand the
:mad: that we have to work with as the Sherriff explained, however, the atcs whom I work with all do their best to please the client, and with this added input hopefully we can try do a few things differently. Personally I think STARS will asssit to a large degree, with the pilots being 'more in the picture' without having to ask.
One last thing about the number in sequence, don't be mistaken if you are number 3 or 4 that we need you to slow down, in some cases it might just be the opposite and we're trying to squeeze you into number 4, so you're not 5!

I am also doing the nightshift thing tonight, but will do my best to go to Rockwells to be on my worst behavior tomorrow! These meetings are overdue.

Happy landings
:ok:
TMAg

Hey ETOPS,

I have never worked anywhere where the TOB is needed (unless emergency of course) for the in or outbound flights. Infact it gives away secrets don\'t ya think? These are all requirements laid down for us that will take forvever and a day to change. Hopefully with the rapid changes at the airport, with the commencement of the second rwy already, things will start to improve.

TMAg

[IShotTheSherif]

I hope that the information that has been posted here by TMAGuide, Abu and myself has been of help.

As for getting the total on board from the Agent or Airline, I doubt it. These figures are entered into the billing system, so I think that they use it for stats.

As for the registration on the flight plans, these are often changed and for whatever reason we don't get the revised plan. Again, I am not blaming any particular agency, as I think both ATC and airline sides are sometimes slack.

As TMAGuide mentions, the airport is changing rapidly, I hope maybe some of the uneccesary things we do can be binned.

Live in hope and all that...

Take care

Sherif

[Abu]

Its been said before amd will be said a million times again why dont you pilots calll down to see atc a work?

Our busiest time is between 2100 and 0100 so if you arrived just 30 mins earler for work you could see atc in practice. Just ring 025757388 to organise clearance.

Hopefully you will a learn a lot about our procedures about here at AUH.

I really do hope t

[Left Coaster]

Awesome re-start guys, just what we should have done in the first place! Thanks...
The invite to drop in and watch would be easy if our rosters let us! But where and how would help. (if it's allowed to post the contact #'s here)
Hope the dust has settled and talk to you boys tonight...(work again...
Cheers
LC:{

[ruserious]

Great thread, I was aware you AUH ATCO's had your hands tied, but was not aware of the full scope of it. You must get pretty frustrated by it, I know we do and we only have to deal with it a few times a month.
If pilots get snappy or sound frustrated, it is usually because we are task fixated on flying the plane as efficiently as we can, always trying to anticipate what is coming next (and yes, get home to the pub).
Threads like this are extremely important to raising our awareness of all the issues in our environment.
Thanks :ok:

[boeingdriverx]

Hi guys!

Great post, thank you so much it is a great pleasure to read, I learned a lot.

So IShotTheSherif, you asked for comments on crew reducing speed without advising you... :

"On more than one occassion I have had crew slow from the instructed speed without asking. Please (again, pretty please) ask us beforehand".

In Gulf Air Operations Manual we have:

"1) A speed of 250 kts below 10000 above airport level shall be observed for normal ops.
2) Exceptionnally AT THE REQUEST OF ATC, a higher speed may be maintained below 10000 above airport level but MUST BE REDUCED TO 250 KTS OR LESS PRIOR TO DESCENDING BELOW 5000 ft."

I have to confess that it happened to me to reduce speed to 250kts without advising you guys, sorry, I will think about it now. I think many GF guys here thinks that you are aware of our restricitions and we sometimes do it without telling you...

I hope it help a little bit
Cheers
BDX

[jackbauer]

Worth remembering that the reduction of speed to 250 below 10 is not just to facilitate ATC. It also has a safety reason i.e. if you have a bird strike at 300kts at 5000ft your windscreen will shatter and you will end up wearing the bird in question. It can ruin your day and that of your pax. High speed at low level is not a good idea and there is plenty of documentary evidence to support that.

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi JackBauer and BoeingDriverX,

We don't normally ask for more than 250 below 5000. Usually the GFA pilots give us 280 to 5000 and then 250 below that.

It's the unrequested reduction from 250 to 200 on (somtimes very) early downwinds (ie around 40 nm to touchdown) that are problematic. I will usually give you 250 until abeam the field, and then 220 until base and then 200 until inbound turn.

If for whatever reason you can't comply with the issued speed, and you need to reduce, then ask first. It also means I then have to slow down other traffic to avoid those 20nm downwinds...

Cheers
Sherif

[ironbutt57]

Never a need to slow down on downwind below 250kts, most just do it to avoid a long final, and "stretch the idle glide" as long as possible...if aware that we will be joining final for RWY13 from a down wind at "Girba" then no need to slow down..normally we are aware of the preceeding traffic, and slow down trying to anticipate when base turn will be....a notation on the app. chart something like.."aircraft flying downwind patterns maintain 250kts, or assigned speed, until abeam the airport, anticipate joining final at "Girba" (RWY13) or "RIDEX" (RWY31) (as is usually the case) would make planning an efficient profile easier, (of course bear in mind this in most cases rules out a last-minute "short approach") and probably reduce the number of airspeed suprises that atc recieves from us as well...anyway good to see a positive thread on the subject.....:ok:

[Yo767]

For JackBauer, bird lover

I don't know about Airbus but Mr Boeing guarantees me that I will keep my windshield intact if I keep my speed below 313 KTS before going for the kill.

[TMAguide]

Ironbutt we (most of us) will try issue a slower speed if you are on a downwind and it is anticipated ur heading for a 20 miler downwind, the curve ball comes in when there are more behind. then everyone slows right down (rather that than everyone head out 20 miles). As you can imagine the decsion on a speed has a snow ball effect therefore it needs to be corrrectly applied (and adhered to by you guys).


Chaps still going to Rockwells? If so what time?

[radioexcel]

:O Hi everyone. First time I join this forum. Just couldn't resist to say..."possitive input reuslt in positive feedback"

I have been in this game now for 33 years(as ATC and 20 years flying myself). Thus you old (and not so old) friends in the sky, I would like to share some true words in life which I've been told by an old friend (an elderly pilot friend) I met about 20 years ago who said to me one day:
"We may be pilots... we may be ATC's ...but we are all COMRADES OF THE AIR. What ever affects the one, always affects the other.

Having seen the remarks a few days ago on another forum and then this forum, I must say that these words are truly spoken. If it was not for you guys(and girls) we would not have been in this game and without our support life would have been pretty difficult for you out there to.

Having also done the thing with the night thing last night and being in the process of moving, I would have loved to be at Rockwells tonight..:ugh: Sorry I couldn't make it. Maybe next time as I have always believed in resolving matters by personal discussion. Best over a relaxing drink.

My appreciation to IShotTheSherif, Abu and TMAguide who took the initiative in staring this thread and explaining to our flying friends what problems we are faced with in trying our utmost best to help the flying fertinity in getting to and from AUH with the least delay.

Please guys (and girls) next time you're out there and talking to us please remember we try our best to help. Like ABU has said, our motto is to get you on the ground or enroute to your destination ASAP.

:ok: Please post any queries, problems or advice required and I am sure we can resolve anything with the utmost respect for one another.

RE

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi gents,

We left Rockwell Cafe at about 00:10. It has been a day after a long night shift. We are sorry we missed you - maybe we can meet again somwhere?

Cheers

[TMAguide]

ButtIron is probably having a good chuckle cosy in his bed, snoozzzing away, OR having far too many of them "tinnies' else where, just to let u chaps know we were there...:bored:

[ironbutt57]

Sorry fellows, buttiron's trusty steed of 11 yrs dropped it's guts on Electra street, and spend a joyous evening trying to get her home...off to the shop today to get a new battery..(hope thats the trouble) and try again tonite..if not taxi time....used to have Wayne (aka "stinky arm") gsm number in my fone and would have given a heads up...seems to have gone missing with my fone one foggy night while conducting "LVP's" at Rock Bottom:rolleyes:

[poison]

This thread is probably one of the best threads that I have read in some time and therefore it is deserving of a reply.

Firstly I would like to see the ground controllers at AUH issue the departure clearance in the "read back" after the pilots have called for push and start with their relevant details. This would save us from having to ask for it at the gate after you have issued the clearance for push and start or from us having to ask you for it while taxiing.

Let me now put in my two cents of why 250 below ten is the norm around the world regardless of whether or not the airspace has that restriction. I have flown both the Boeing and Airbus and have had the most senior training captains of both companies observe my operations. Both manufacturer captains made a point to comment on the importance of 250 below ten because of bird strike. Yes I know that Boeing have a 313kt limitation but what you don't know is that this limitation is derived with the windshield from a pressurised cockpit. The tensile properties of the windshield change with pressurisation. At high altitude when the cabin diff pressure is 8, the winshield is like a balloon. It is stronger. But when you begin your descent below 10 and the cabin diff pressure is reduced the tensile properties begin to decrease and the window is no longer as strong. At 313kts below ten, the bird would end up in first class.

Let us now look at some other points. Apart from the fact that 250 below ten is safer than 300 below ten at high density airports, the fuel burn is also increased in this situation. Even though ATC may say no speed restriction on the climb out and the descent, if you increase that speed to say 320 in the climb you are not flying the aircraft efficiently. And for the descent, the most efficient way is not keeping the aircraft crusing until you can do a dead stick landing. It is the LRC Mach to Fl 300, then 290-300 kts to 10K and then 250 below ten. Look at the AFM if you don't know this one.

What ATC must be aware of is the general guide line of the maufacturer's recommended speeds, which are basically speeds adopted by the operator and that also includes the approach speeds. That means roughly a speed of 210-220 kts downwind, reducing to 180kts on base, 160kts to the LOM and managed speed thereafter or bug plus 5.

A STAR would be the best thing to implement for AUH as this would give the pilot the info for the profile. When radar vectors are then issued, a track distant miles is what is needed for the pilot to plan his approach.

[ironbutt57]

Yes...atc in Bombay have a very nice habit of telling us track miles to landing when issuing initial radar vectors very helpful in planning:ok:

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi guys :D,

I think some mis-understanding has crept in regarding the 250 below 10k issue.

A variety of different airlines operating into AUH have different policies with regards to speeds. I was just trying to find out what I can expect from who. I do not expect you to violate company policy, and if I do ask for it, its as simple as saying 'Unable to comply'. We will make another plan.

The issue I had with the speeds - was that some pilots are reducing from the speed I had issued without clearance. I issued the speed to maybe keep you ahead so you are number 1, or maybe to stop you from slipping from 4 out of 7 to 6 out of 7. Again, these speeds I give are not advisories, they are instructions. If unable/unwilling to comply, please advise at your earliest convenience, so we can adjust our planning accordingly. There may be another 4 right behind (or even from the opposite direction to) you which we will have to slow down too.

Now this happens infrequently, but I may *gasp* change the inbound sequence. This is done, because I may have found another way of fitting you all in quicker than before (see paragraph above re speeds). It may mean you move from 2 to 3, which then means someone moves from 3 to 2. I would dearly love to make you all number 1 direct GIRBA/RIDEX, but it just can't happen.

With regards to track miles, sometimes the ATC is stretched to the limit. We may not give it, or will give a rough estimate, which I feel is a waste of time. If you are number one for a downwind approach, its approximately your DME from AUH and 18-20nm (8 downwind, 4 base, 8 final). So if youre 40 dme for a L/H 31 and you are number 1, then you will have roughly 60nm to touchdown. If you're straight in for 13/31, and you are at 40dme, then you have 40 track miles to touchdown ;). Obviously, another approach control sector would be grand. I heard it is in the works, and the date I seem to remember was around July next year. I don't believe there is any plan afoot to design STARS, but I will investigate.

We have just had a new radar system installed, so in the coming months we should be trained and eventually move across. I have not used it yet, and can't say whether it will hinder or help us, but we will be asking for your help and patience when we do transition to it. You may notice we have a huge tower with a big golf ball on top of it. Well, we don't work up there. Between G1 and D1, there is a little 'standby tower'. Well, that is where we operate from, because our main tower is undergoing refurbishment, new consoles and equipment etc. That is why all your pushback and starts are 'at your discretion'. We can't see anything of B2/B3, A1-A4 and any of the new E-bays. If we have heavies in D1/2/3, then we can see almost nothing.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the responses. Keep it up!! :ok: :ok:

We will be at Rockwell Cafe\' around 23:15\'ish... See ya later...

[Dr. Evil]

My turn now..

As ATC, we could also become better re speed control. How often do we forget to terminate speed control when issueing a reduction? Well, more than we think! So, to some point I understand why a pilot will reduce, he needs to land the bird.

Reason why we don't do thight downwinds are many. Some ATCOs just think 5 nm wide "looks" good and others consider conflicting departing traffic (A13/A31). So you might ask why don't we just get close and stop at 4000, well you departed earlier as well, so you probably also want a continous climb (and avoid the possiblity of a level bust, TCAS TA/RA etc.). BUT we Radar ATCOs receive the departure strip in time, so we roughly know when the flight will be airborne. Therefore no departures, get 'em close and short..

Re night operations at AUH and 10 nm separation between successive arrivals. Its a lot of bull!!! If we as ATCOs have a well "controlled" speed control we can easily bring them in closer. The instruction is: 1st landed aircraft has to vacate the runway when 2nd is on 4 nm final (funny enough, nothing mentioned about a departing traffic... but let it rest). Respect of which types are being sequenced and departures at the holding point, I consider 6-8 nm spacing sufficient/perfect for both situations. I know some drivers moans when its "very" close between departures and arrivals (in the event of a missed approach etc.), but believe me, if I'm in the tower I've got a plan B/C as well. Its all about speed control on final. But we're all different. Landing clearance can still be issued when you pass the threshold and previous departing aircraft has passed the runway end... Its close at night I know, but you do the flying and I'll do the controlling :D

Having said that, perhaps we should give you some more space due to the unreliable equipment at AUH. Some mornings are crazy! You probably already heard an ATCOs voice on the freq. being "stressed". Simply because there's too much traffic for one sector to handle. So what about ground radio failure, radar failure, total power failure etc. Well, I hope I'm not on duty and I hope you'll be flying a trip to Dubai that day instead :ooh:

To all you pilots! Which speed do you prefer on final (please mention the type you fly as well)? I'm used to 160/4 or 180/5 and 200/8 or 220/10 (minimum clean) and it worked great where I'm from.

Another thing. Its not like we practise speed control to our finger tips here in the Gulf. AUH is not that busy! (some will say yet := ). A typical inbound sequence is normally 3-4-5-6 at the time, and luckily some with "peaks" with 7-10, but its normally gone within 30 min. That's the practise we get, if we're in position that day. So we might be "rusty" at times. No simulator to practise on either. So bear with us if we miss a mile or two (in the right direction of course :ok: ). As said before, sometimes we want you to fly high speed on downwind, maybe to close a gap so you can get in front of a straight-in guy (that requires everyones attention though, so please listen up on app freq).

Talking about "listen-up". Some drivers tends to "confirm" nearly every instruction given to them. THAT IS ANNOYING!!! Of course better safe than sorry, but c'mon, what do you expect on an approach freq.? Descend, Turn and Speed....right? That would help us a lot when busy. You could then justify that there's too many on the freq. at the same time, but then again, there's normally only 1 Qatari on the freq at any given time. (Sorry Qatari :ugh: ). GF should look into some similar callsigns they use (call-sign confusion!) and change re Human Factor principles.

That's all for now, back to you :ouch:

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi IronButt57...

Please check you PM's....

Cheers
Sherif

[FDMS]

Hi Guys
Well no one turned up at Rockwell's two nights running. We (Controllers) will be at the Captains Arms (Meridian) tonight from 8pm. Hope some of you GFA, ETD etc crew can make it.
Hope to see you.

[bubblebee]

Hello to all

I would like to clarify a few things.

1. When a pilot requests a short approach; what is that exactly? Is it 2 or 3 miles from final approach? ATC's were taught, that a pilot has to be vectored for a 10-12nm final approach.

2.At AUH we don't have the facility for the pilot to position himself on final approach. I suggest that you request a visual approach should you prefer to position yourself for final approach.


Bubble bee

[Dr. Evil]

ATC's were taught, that a pilot has to be vectored for a 10-12nm final approach.

Not so sure about that one!

I was taught 2 nm before glideslope intercept if the final vector was 30 degrees or less to the LLZ. And 3 nm before glideslope if it was up to 45 degrees intercept. 10-12 nm final for me seems a lot of extra miles (space for one in between :ok: )

[Abu]

Just wanted to say that there has a been a noticeable difference in peoples behaviour in the week.

I'm glad to say that this thread seems to have expained the conditions that we controllers work under. It nice to hear pleasant voices from the pilots. We are trying to help you as much as possible but of course our hands are tied in some matters.

We are all working in the Middle East, we know the red tape thats here but its been a much nicer environment to work in recently. I hope it continues..

Abu.

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi guys,

I concur with Abu here - there has been a noticeable difference to the better.

Thanks for the co-operation, and if you have any questions/suggestions/complaints/compliments, then feel free to chime in.

The invite to drop in and watch would be easy if our rosters let us! But where and how would help

Should anybody wish to visit us and see what we do first hand, then feel free to call (02) 5052800, that's the radar room, and we will definitely make a plan. Or just PM me and I will speak with you directly...

Cheers, and thanks again to all concerned - it's been fantastic lately...