KA350 vs CJ1 ?

[PorcoRosso]

Bonjour guys

I was contacted today by an entrepreneur who is considering buying an aircraft

I am trying to compare operating costs of a Kingair 350 , with a CJ1 .

what would be the limitations of either planes ? (range with max pax , pax with max fuel ...etc ..etc ... )

What are the expected figures for a good second hand airframe ? (I know a nice CJ1 is around 2.5 M $ , but what about the KA350 ? )

Best regards

[Dont worry]

Hi, there !
There is absolute no way to compare a CJ1 with a 350.
The 350 is more expensive in the normal Operation, but you have an aircraft which is able to bring up to 8 passengers with luggage and full fuel to a 1200 mile destination.
Try this with an CJ.
Sure, the CJ is able to fly higher and propably a bit faster.
This decision will mainly depend on the Companies or Owners special needs. Have flown the 350 for quite a while. We had a lot of passangers to take on the trips and had also a lot of 3 to 4 hours trips. Amazing little aircraft concerning Range, Pax and Fuel.

[His dudeness]

Hi Porco,

the CJ1 is Rangewise very limited when loaded. Usally you can sit 1 Pax when fully fueled [depends obviously on equipment installed]. Range is then about 1000 miles. (we are talking MCT - at max Range the CJ is SLOWER than the 350...)
Also the seating is very cramped, legroom very restricted if the clubseating is full. Because of the cross-section shape is round, larger guys don´t feel too good in the Citations.(Headroom)
The CJ1 is also a very weak climber (the 350 outclimbs it easily) and travels at about 360 ktas. I´d rather compare the CJ2 to the B350, which offers about 300nm more range and travels at 400+ KTAS and climbs pretty good.
I´d also consider the Mustang as a danger to the resale value of the little CJ.
Big difference in Fees, the CJ1 and 2 are 4,8 and 5,7 MTOW, the 350 is 6,8. Usually the Landing fees are considerably higher and Eurocontrol is as well. All have in commen, that they swallow at lower altitudes, so the profile the guy wants to fly is also a key issue - if he does short trips very often, go for a KingAir (also a maintnenace cost thing here, as all Citations and the Williams engines are cycle limited [e.g. TBO 3500 hrs OR 3500 cycles- so average trip time should be above 1 hour ideally]-the KA doesn´t have many cycle limited items [Just the gear, I think])

Maintenance wise, I´d say the KA is generally more expensive, but the Citations seem to get more snacks when aging than the KAirs...

[CJ Driver]

These are two very different machines.

The 350 is nearly twice the size of the CJ1, so if your payload is 5 or more people with baggage, the 350 will win every time. But the size means it costs more. More to buy, and more to run, in ATC charges and fuel.

The CJ1 is faster (although only about 15%), significantly quieter, and cheaper to buy and run, so if you want to carry 1 to 3 people it's almost certainly a better answer.

Despite the comment of His Dudeness, last time I looked the King Air engines had a 3600 hour TBO, versus 3500 on the CJ, but CJ overhauls are cheaper, so that's not really a deal maker/breaker.

[PorcoRosso]

Bonjour guys !

I knoow we are talking about very different machines, my potential emploer doesn't know exaclty what he needs ... basically, he's got money, and he wants a plane .
The Citation attracts him "waoh ! ... that's a jet" therefore sounds better in his views .
I personnally feel the 350 suits better is needs : fly far with lot of people on board

Whatever his final decision, I need material to define what we can do and what we can't do with the plane .

That's why I need to compare apples and bananas ;)

Your help is greatly appreciated

[CJ Driver]

Your potential owner is quite right, a jet is better than a turboprop for most private individuals (because most private individuals are not going into shorter strips using public transport distances, they're not hauling a lot of weight in freight, and they are not trying to buy the cheapest seat-mile - but they ARE looking for prestige and personal comfort).

So it comes down to how many seats you need. For 2 adults, sometimes 4, the CJ1 is great. For 4 adults, sometimes 6, the CJ2 is great. For more seats than that, you need to step up to something much bigger. But, only buy what you need - if you generally need 2 passengers, but once a year you need 8, don't buy an 8 seat airplane - buy a CJ1 and charter a bigger aircraft when you need it.

[speech]

Beside the possibilities of each a/c, the image is important to some owners. Some will want to fly in a jet, even if the capabilities are limited, and others will be afraid of the jet image. I flew a KA 300 for a guy who didn't want to be seen in a jet, fearful of the image (a turboprop can be seen as a workhorse, a jet as a toy...). Could sound silly but that the way it is.

P.S. : Toujours pas de boulot Porco?

[PorcoRosso]

Merci guys , I think you have the picture of my future hypothetic potential employer (a very nice guy, by the way )
Actually, since am comparing different planes, I found one who may perfectly suits his needs : A P180 Piaggio Avanti
Twin turboprop, fast like a jet , and a serious useful load
What do you think ?

Speech , plus de boulot depuis quelques mois,mais je suis sur quelques pistes, dont celle ci .

[FLEXJET]

Avanti looks great, but is more difficult to land.
The aircraft has the range, speed, cabin and is reasonably priced.
Contact Piaggio for a demo flight, you'll enjoy!
(I friend did it and he is considering the P180 for a KA90 replacement).

By the way, I don't think you'll find a 2.5M$ CJ1. Priced at 3M$ more likely!

[PorcoRosso]

Hello Flexjet

A Friend of mine just bought a CJ1 , nice one in very good condition = 2.6 M $
those little toys are not that expensive

Used P180 soars around 3.5 M $ , and you can find a KA350 in reasonable condition for this figure .

I would be very interested to hear your friend's point of view regarding the P180 . Maybe he's got some operations costs to share ?

Kenavo ;)

[nouseforaname]

I'm actually looking at getting a CJet or CJ1. What is the improvement of the CJ1 on the original Jet?

Found a nice one for sale but the problem is getting a go in one.

A problem that has already been mentioned in this thread is the affect of the Mustang when it comes into full flow....I think it might sting the wallet of a cj1 owner having the advantage of a brand-new plane, with warranty, glass, bells, whistles etc. For a similar price tag to a used CJ

[PorcoRosso]

Sorry I can't help you . We offically give up the idea of buying a CJ1 , we are now seriously considering the P180 Piaggio Avanti .