An Honest & Uncensored Debate About Jet2

[X-Centric]

Allow me to get the ball rolling. I was an advocate of Jet2, believing in all of the BS that I was fed at the interview stage. I now have the misfortune to work for them. Their terms & conditions are as follows:

Terms: Theirs at all times
Conditions: Appalling

There is a dictatorship at the head of this airline that we should all be very wary of in more ways than one. I am astounded as to why they don't make more appearences on this site. Is it because their bullying CEO threatens legal action against everyone who doesn't see his point of view totally & unquestioningly & so any voice of opposition is promptly removed? And don't ever dare to think about handing in your notice & leaving this dubious outfit. For that is a sin that PM can only counter with threats, & denial of references to a new employer, as a very good friend of mine is finding out at the moment. (This, by the way, after he worked a four month notice period with us).

Jet2/Channex are going to be very short of crew soon. We are worth a look, possibly, if you are going through our TRSS to get jet time in your log book. You may have to put up with the likes of us for a short time to reach where you finally want to be. If you are type rated on the 737 or 757 then come & join us for the lowest pay in the industry, constant roster changes, cancellation of leave, working for an authoritarian management with a "style" straight out of a Dickens novel, aircraft with constant tech problems, certain F/Os promoted on the basis of "suck-up-ability" rather than flying skills (as ever, some upgraders are excellent), & contractors who fly to their own SOPs so are really a lined up hole in the Swiss cheese!

This outfit needs to realise that they are now flying human beings around not inanimate freight. The market has changed: there are now employment opportunities almost eveywhere & they are going to struggle like hell to keep going if they continue to treat us like ****. As for me? I can't leave soon enough. And by the way, messrs PM & ID, you would spend your energies far more wisely by improving your employee relations, for flight safety reasons if nothing else, than holding in-house witch hunts & threatening to sack anyone who mentions anything derogatory about Jet2 on Pprune. We do so because you are incapable of listening to us. :yuk:

[pilothouse]

X-Centric

The Jet2 you describe is somewhat different to the one I work for! Yes, pay and conditions need to improve but 95% of my fellow pilots seem happy enough for the moment.

You are obviously very bitter and I wouldn't like to belittle whatever scenario you have encountered because it has obviously left you traumatised, but please don't wreck Jet2 for the rest of us.



...........and another thing, X-Centric!

You say, "aircraft with constant tech problems".

I don't know where you've worked before (maybe nowhere) but in several decades of flying I have never known so few ADDs and tech problems generally.

Have you any idea what it's like to fly aircraft that limp around with 5 or 6 pages of ADDs? It happens all over the world but certainly not at Jet2.

[jet2jockey]

- CEO is a potentially dangerous bully who likes to shout and rant at anyone from Service Air to Check In staff to Pilots.. He reduced an Aircrew to tears in MJV recently prior to departure just because they used the APU on the ground.

- The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews - this new 'money-saving' policy was just dumped on us without any consultation - PM shows no respect even for his own management pilots who are a very experienced bunch and deserve better. This policy often sees us running one engine for 5-7 minutes or so while the ground guys hook up the GPU - penny smart / pound stupid?

- The aircraft are not holding up too well IMHO. They are 20 years old and have around 45000 hrs (5 years continuous flying) on the airframe. That's fine as long as the maintenance is generously resourced. I take an aircraft with significant ADDs out about 50% of the time. In recent times I've operated with 1 pack only, no EHSI, no Fuel summation unit, faulty main tank fuel gauges to name a few. One CPT I know was asked to take an aircraft that could only acheive Flap 15 until the FTM stepped in and stopped it. This may be partly because PM has had shouting fits at some of the engineers and many of them have left or it may be that the fleet is too old for the flying schedule?

- Roster stability is non-existant. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty. I've heard that one of our FOs was recently hauled down to Bournemouth for tea (no biscuits) and publicly humliated in the company circlular for refusing to accept a change that would have gone into his day off with less than 24 hrs notice.

- It's been a hard summer for many. Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty. Sometimes only getting the legally required 1 day off. They are working towards 5 days max duty but it may be too little too late for some. Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent as well but seems to be improving a little lately.

- Also, lots of nightflying this summer. Latest flight used to get back at around 9.30pm now there are several that get back between 1 and 3am. It's had a big impact on quality of life for many with families.

- Captains take home around £3500 - FOs around £2500. All airlines have to compete for quality pilots in the current market. Rather than paying the market rates, Jet2 is preferring to use contractors to make up the numbers - another case of penny smart / pound stupid?

- On the upside, most of the people in Ops / Crewing / Aircrew are nice to be with and there is a good 'small company' atmosphere where you get to know people quite well.

Pilothouse - no-one wants to wreck Jet2 for the many, many great people who work there but you can't change things by keeping quiet and bending over. The problem is there is no consultation and feedback is not encouraged through internal channels - meaning that PPrune is one of the few places people can have a rant and air their frustrations.

PM thinks people should be shouted at and they will do what they are told like naughty children. I find I can't work for someone like that anymore.

[Doors to Automatic]

I have had nothing to do with this outfit in person but have met a couple of former managers who certainly corroborate what has been said here.

[pilothouse]

"The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews"

Yes, these are the guidelines but Captains do have discretion, it says so.


"In recent times I've operated with 1 pack only, no EHSI, no Fuel summation unit, faulty main tank fuel gauges to name a few."

Show me an airline that doesn't. Even some "reputable" airlines will cross an ocean on one pack.


"Roster stability is non-existent. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty."

I've never had such a stable roster as this summer. Where else have you worked? This is industry standard. Unless you happen to work for an outfit with negotiated stability windows, this is what life as a pilot is like.


"Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty."

Agreed, not pleasant, though it does suit those who want to commute home and need more than 2 days off to do it.


"Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent."

Undesirable, but normal industry standard.


"Also, lots of nightflying this summer. Latest flight used to get back at around 9.30pm now there are several that get back between 1 and 3am. It's had a big impact on quality of life for many with families."

You think that finishing at 3am is a night flight? Try an 1800 BFS-Larnaca-BFS, then you'll know what a night flight is. ALL pilots' families have a rough time.


"No-one wants to wreck Jet2 for the many, many great people who work there but you can't change things by keeping quiet and bending over."

Agreed, but attacking the man who is responsible for our livelihoods in public is potentially disastrous.

[jet2jockey]

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Pilothouse said - "Attacking the man who is responsible for our livelihoods is potentially disasterous"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to think everything at Jet2 is industry norm. No problem with it being on here then eh? Everyone reading will think - "yep - normal that".

Attacking CEO disasterous? Ooh - maybe he'll jump up and down and shout at some people and we'll all be scared some more... Never mind, it'll be very motivating for us and we'll all work much harder.

:ok:

[pilothouse]

Yes, I repeat, most things at Jet2 are industry norm, except of course that most pilots work harder than we do and suffer more disruption.

And I've no problems with people reading this thread because those with any real exposure to the industry will know all this already.

They will be absolutely amazed at your suggestion that we shouldn't need to phone Crewing for changes before going home!

[X-Centric]

Pilothouse, I am a captain with over 4,000 hours on type, both NG & Classic. I have worked for two previous 737 operators as well as spending several years flying turborpops around Europe. From the tone of your reply it sounds very much as though it is you who has very little experience of our industry. If you are experienced then I'd guess that it all comes from Channex, because there is no way on earth that you'd be so accepting of PMs lousy attitude if you had any other relevant flying experience.

So, you find it acceptable to operate with one pack only? Indeed if you check the MEL it is so with certain altitude restrictions. However, do you then find it acceptable to be operating on one pack, have the remaining pack trip off at FL230 & continue to operate from MAN to BUD when the initial trip off occured at LAMSO? Jet2 do. They operated this aircraft in just such a manner & then had to return from BUD to MAN at 8,000ft with an aircraft full of passengers!

How about ATC informing a crew shortly after rotation that they ..."have fuel spraying from the right wing..." & the passengers calling the cabin crew to inform them that they could see liquid coming from the wing. The Decision? Hell, lets carry on because the leak ceased at approximately FL120!

How about three of our very good FOs warning the company that one of the MAN based contract Captains was a dangerous operator & something needed to be done? (Full credit here must go to a training captain who took the problem seriously & tried to deal with the situation only to be basically humiliated & over ridden in his decision making by the management.) They moved this guy to LBA, as we all know a far more technical airfield, & what happened? On his first day the FO refused to fly with him ever again & on his second day he nearly went off the end of the runway. Only then did Channex dismiss him. He nearly had to crash the bloody thing before they would take any action! And which captain am I referring to? Look at the newspapers from two weeks ago.

The issue of the APU poses me with a problem. I frequently start up the APU even if ground power is available because I personally think that we are following a potentially lethal course with this ridiculous policy. Someone is going to be seriously injured or even killed to save this half assed airline a few dollars. My SOPs, however, state that the APU is not to be used. Now we are having problems with the APUs because they weren't meant to be used in this way (for such short periods: on & then off again five minutes later) & so any savings that we have made are about to possibly go out of the window. Again, smacks of a management team who don't have a clue, doesn't it?

Sorry Pilothouse but you talk absolute tripe when you attempt to claim that by working seven days in a row you somehow get more days off together so it's good for the commuters. If you get two days off together after a seven day duty then you are blessed. We frequently finish on a late & start on an early, so commuting, or having quality time at home with your family, is damn near impossible. No, this is not the industry norm, thank God.

[757manipulator]

Pilot-house, your talking crap buddy...industry norm my arse, get your head out of the sand!:mad:

[pilothouse]

I despair!

10000+ hours, 5+ employers, several types from 5 to 100+ tonnes.

X-Centric, I sincerely wish you happiness in your next job.

[ATIS]

pilothouse, you're not part of da management are you?

It was only the management peeps who couldn't see past their office windows at my previous outfit. (Maybe they should have raised the blinds). They were constantly told by the frontliners that things were BAD. They didn't even batter an eye lid. Now they are in the worst state they have ever been. Cancelling flights, wet leasing flights, resignations at the highest rate they have ever been.

If you are management, listen to whats going on, cos its usually the pilots who want the best for their airline.

If you're not management excuse the waffling.

[pilothouse]

ATIS, I'm definitely not Management! One or two of my fellow pilots know who pilothouse is and several others will easily guess.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Management need to listen and learn from what's going on. There are indeed things that need changing.

Channex is hardly a new airline, but I think most would agree that Jet2 feels like one. I've been in on airline start-ups before and you have to expect some deficiencies until things settle down. Inevitably this takes time but in my experience it gets there in the end.

It's the extremism of just a few alienated pilots that can kill our Company stone dead, that's what concerns me.

[The Potter]

Allow me to tell you just how good & "industry norm" Jet2 actually are.

:sad: Line training captains who use assumed temp & derate during windshear conditions!

:sad: Aircraft being flown with so many defects that it is downright dangerous but commercial pressure seems to scare the skippers fartless so they'll take it!

:sad: Senior captains who take the opportunity to have a bloody good sleep during the entire cruise phase whether PF or PNF!

:sad: The above senior captain who is prepared to ground an aircraft because his cup holder is u/s, or at least he says he will. Imagine him explaining that one to our ayatollah!

:sad: Slapping £5,000 bonds onto crew who were already 737 or 757 rated & then not reducing the bond on a pro rata basis!

:sad: Attempting to charge existing company 737 drivers £20,000 for a 757 course!

:sad: Want to leave them, as you invariably will, then that's a four month notice period. Dare to not work this full period & you will be charged approximately £310 per day minus your annual salary divided by 365 to cover the cost of a contractor to replace you!

:sad: Call into crewing at the end of every duty day to see how they're going to muck up the rest of your roster. A late where you had an early? Why not? It's just your life outside of work!

:sad: An excellent crewing department who are so overworked because management will not release any funds for extra staff that they must be totally p***ed off. They are genuinely good people who are one of the very few +ve's in this airline.

:sad: Positioning cabin crew by train between MAN & LBA & expecting them to pay for their own ticktes up front!

:sad: A CEO who thinks absolutely nothing about interfering with a turnround & issuing B0110ckings especailly if his blessed APU is fired up on stand, & upsetting the entire crew. A crew, by the way who then had to operate a flight back to the UK in an upset state! Flight safety? Fit to fly?

Just a random list & there are more. They have some really good people working for them but the best will leave if this rotten management doesn't start to treat it's staff with just a tad of human respect.

[Right Way Up]

Reading this thread & others about Jet2 all I can say is there seems to be a little too much smoke for there not be fire. I think it is about time the CAA started to do their job. I would say that most airlines that are under their jurisdiction are pushing the boundaries. You only have to look at the fallout of the Helios crash to realise that "laissez-faire" control of airlines can only lead to tears.

[X-Centric]

Extremism of a few alienated pilots, Pilothouse?
So you don't think that any of us who know damn well how appalling conditions are at Jet2 should be allowed to speak up then? No one is trying to cost anybody an airline: as you have said there are some very good & talented people who have the misfortune to be employed by PM. The point here is that the management team simply will not listen to the pilots even when it concerns issues of flight safety. That is more important than any of our jobs as far as I'm concerned. A dictating, jumped up bully who treats his staff like serfs affects our terms & conditions of employment but it sure as hell also has an effect on flight safety. When captains are genuinely so bloody scared of the man that they will not even start up an APU in 25C for fear of wasting his money then we have a right to free speech.

If ever they had listened to us then it wouldn't have reached this forum in the first place. If we didn't have a castrated 'Aircrew Manager' who was actually allowed to make a decsion (bet he's forgotten how) things might have been bearable. Just think, Pilothouse, they may sit up & take note of this thread. They might not intimidate Pprune to have the thread removed. Instead they might realise that they have got things very wrong & then conditions will improve for those who have to stay & I'm not just talking about their low salary or lack of sector pay. That's my hope & the aim of this thread.

There certainly are plenty of other jobs out there at the moment for jet drivers & that's why Channex have lost approximately 17 crew in the last month alone, of which, I am pleased to announce, I am one. To all of my colleagues who have to stay then I look forward to flying with you during my notice period & I look forward even more so to flying with some of you in a far more positive & people orientated airline.

[Thunor]

Er ... Wow!!!?

I'm an EX-Turboprop Captain and after 4 years "unemployment" (wrong place/wrong time Sept. 11th/911) I have just "relocated to LBA with the sole intention of trying to become a Jet2 F.O. (simply got to fly a Boeing {or Airbus} before I finally retire!); however this thread fills me with dread!!!

Is it time for me to come up with another (better!) plan?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I am an ex-Channex employee and I sadly have to concur with most of the negative comments here. PM can be an extremely difficult boss and definitely goes by the 'Joseph Stalin' school of subordinate handling. He can in an instant turn from the most charming man into the world to being threatening and abusive and then back to being charming in almost the same breath. You just need to think of a number of such people you have heard of - Donald Trump, Robert Maxwell, Alan Sugar, Michael O'Leary, Rupert Murdoch etc - they all have similar qualities. PM has sacked a number of his employees on the spot in the past. The sad truth is that these are the qualities which bring people to the top of our society but they are also the ones that bring them down. There is no dealing with these guys - you either take them as they are or you leave.

My abiding memory of him will be 'early morning prayers' where all employees at the Bournemouth office had to turn up for the morning briefing given by the Ops Officers and supervised by PM himelf. Often after a night of freight operations in the middle of a UK winter they would have a number of difficult situations to handle like aircraft diverting all round the country due fog etc. After the briefing by the Ops guys, they would then be subjected to public abuse by PM in front of all the secrataries, suppliers, engineers etc and told how terrible their decisions were etc. It was a truly dreadful and demeaning sight and absolutely repulsed me (and virtually everyone else watching).

Incidentally, Channex has the worst safety record of any airline in Britain by a long way. In my time there they had 3 accidents including one fatal one that killed both pilots in an F27 crash. I was much earlier on in my commercial flying career then, but I came closer there to my demise than at any time during my previous RAF career and my subsequent commercial career. It would be hard to blame PM directly for all that - fundamentally it was a cultural problem created indirectly by him and which was extremely difficult to tackle. I do not criticise anyone for working there - circumstances in our lives are such that it is sometimes necessary to work places we would rather not be. I wish all the guys at Jet2 the best - it is without doubt the rock bottom end of the jet market and the second they get a chance to leave they should do so.

[Thunor]

Thank You Norman Stanley Fletcher !

Time for Plan B (for me personally) and for those who are stuck with Plan A all the very best (sounds like you need it!)

[Spartacan]

>>fundamentally it was a cultural problem created indirectly by him and which was extremely difficult to tackle.<<

And here is the nub of the problem. The suits at the CAA will do nothing about a situation like this.

[Robo's law]

Mostly agree! Been here a year fed up wanna leave.

Crew room rumours are that i'm not the only one, but hey maybe a load of us leaving will make them sit up and take note. Yeah right.

What a change i've seen in 12 months!!

[Hoof Hearted]

Norman Stanley you are so right. To all employees - get out while you can! That's what I did. As a former F27 Captain I was shocked to witness some of the scenes described earlier. Indeed I have been the subject of PM's wrath on more than one occassion. A previous topic now removed asked if there was a flight safety issue - draw your own conclusions of course! To Thunor - I hope you do have a plan B and good luck. For my part working for this outfit has been a major factor in getting out of this dreadful business.

[trainer too 2]

The thing that amases me the most is that some people complain about not being involved in what is happening in the company and then Norman is complaining about the "morning prayers".... This was in my view the best internal company communications I have come along in all my career. Yes PM might come over overbearing but in the morning meeting, which he most of the time did not attend because he is/was on the road, there was interaction between all parties about what was going on. The only thing that always amassed me was the fact that most people did not say anything during the meeting and only where commenting and moaning when it was over!

Another amazing thing was that as an FO I liked it a lot but my LHS was generaly not impressed. As a Captain they need not be subjected to these earthly things........they knew best themselves :confused:

PM is the most energetic guy in the industry, but he is also the most approach able I have come ever since! The fact that 90% of the staff have less energy and less knowledge must hurt. But don't blame it on the guy but on yourselves. :mad:

[Shuperstar Loadie]

Norman Stanley, are you implying that the fatal F27 crash was the company's fault or the other incidents because I will correct your jaded view (sorry you lost your job but some of us faught to stay with the company in another capacity). We all it was wrong. But these incidents were proved to be factors from outside the airline and the fatal accident was very much crew error, read the AAIB report or AS invistigation into its loading!.

We all know it's hard work and we are undermanned but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

As for PM doing the morning meeting that must have been 6 or 7 years ago long before Jet2.

Paying for type ratings? look at Ryanair, Easy, etc and tell me they don't.

The answer to it all is what i have been told in previous jobs.......... if you don't like it LEAVE!.

There are a lot of good proffesional people in Jet2 and Channex and it is a joy to work with them.

[topkapi737]

Stories I have heard:

-flt int is open all the time so you can hear the LBA trng capt chewing his gum for the 2 hr flt down to BCn

-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"

-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.

-CEO is very weird-carries clipboard onto flts and makes notes-hangs around during crew briefing and makes suggestions as to how to behave.

-FO's cant fly-call 400' on a no FD departure and look non-plussed when you say nothing-dont know what cws is,in fact never seen it used-"whats that?what does it do?'-some fool told them you cant use V/S,that its somehow dangerous-if they dont see the magical VNAV PTH annunciation,they think its dangerous,outside SOP,must be unsafe-take speedbrake when the FMC says drag reqd-no thought just blind procedure-they get panicky going into busy places like AMS where they ask for high ROD and tight turns-if you take flap 5,it never occurs to thm to maintain 220 to get the higher rod-why?because somebody tell them its unsafe,against SOP!cant fly visual approaches manually -only ILS approaches using FD and AP-again all encouraged by trng-no wonder the contract guys make up their own thing-

-these same FO's that can barely fly a F27,let alone a 737,are nice and quick to sneak reports into the CP down at Bournemouth-this CP then has the nasty habit of calling said capt down for an interview BUT NOT the little sneak who made the report-if youve got something to say,say it out loud and clear and to someones face-

-F27 Capt,now 737 copilot with grand total of 50 hrs says to capt on 6 mile final "You know your gear isnt down?"-never heard of noise abate app?NO..they intercept GS at 3k,gear down flap 15 at 10 miles just like sim-open your mouth when you know what you're saying,otherwise button it tight.

dedicated to the contract pilots of the world.

[duece19]

Contract captain, oh contract captain.

How come they always know better, how come they are always the onces who have problems with "incompetent FOs".

Contract captain, oh contract captain just relax a little and follow this (not the last two) companies SOPs

[jet2impress]

-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.

TopKapi737....

Whats all that about? I don't get you? As an SCCM I have never once operated a flight with this belief. Bit of a gross genrelisation one thinks.

-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"

If the cabin crew really did think a report was required for what ever reason, then so be it. I guess making the PA you suggested would be one of those things that would just be added to such a report! Bit silly of them to discuss this over the service interphone though.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Shuperstar Loadie

Just to correct any misunderstanding - I did not 'lose my job' but left when I had a better job to go to. Channex were good to me personally but nonetheless the safety issues were very real. In addition to the accidents I alluded to, there was at least one more after I left involving another F27. I am extremely familiar with both the facts and personalities of the fatal F27 crash and I am slightly wary of entering into a debate about it - therefore I won't! As a little aside, in that moment you saw the magnificent best of PM - he was fantastic to the families. It is nonetheless fact that Channex suffered a series of accidents including the fatal one with the F27 which is not the case with other equivalent airlines.

A discussion over safety in any airline is a bit like an argument over some of the Asian or African airlines with high accident rates. Inevitably hackles are raised by some of the professional and contientious people who work for them when they feel their credibility is questioned. There are actually many similarities between these companies and the Channex operation. Poor pay and conditions, old aircraft with a wide variety of non-standard fits, a few 'maverick' captains with a lot of non-standard practices, non-rigid SOPs and interference in flight operations from commercially-driven bosses are the backbone of airline bad practice. All of these features applied to Channex when I was there but only current Jet2 crews can say if that is the case now.

It is only when you have worked for different companies that you can tell if there was a 'safety culture' in place at a particular organisation. The problem is that if the 'safety' card is played by disgruntled crews then the management often get stroppy rather than address the genuine issues. I can only tell you my own experience - there was no effective 'safety culture' in Channex when I was there when compared to the companies I have worked for more recently. You can be offended by that - it is nonetheless the truth.

Therein lies the problem - you are faced with a sharp, hard-hitting, no-compromise CEO who you either love or hate. What has made Jet2 an apparent success is the drive of PM. Like all such people he can be the best of the best and worst of the worst. You see the crux of the problem here - some people loved 'morning prayers' and others loathed them! That is the nature of the beast. His style inspires both unswerving loyalty and undying loathing depending on who you speak to. My point is that if Channex are to avoid another accident then they must put in place a 'safety culture' which by definition higher management outside the Flt Ops world cannot interfere in. It seems unlikely to me that given the personalities involved that will happen.

[screw fix diret]

You don't think I should consider joining Jet2 then?

...and I guess BALPA recognition isn't on the horizon just at the mo either?

[Autobrake Low]

Topkapi - you have some issues - worrying ones for someone in your position. Part of your role as the LHS driver should be to pass on your experience to your colleague in the RHS (line trainer or not). If inexperience leads to bizarre comments or incorrect flying technique on the part of your COLLEAGUE why not try explaining that to them, rather than berating their stupidity as your comments suggest you do?
Maybe then you will find yourself less on the receiving end of these 'sneaky reports'.
:confused:

[X-Centric]

Trainer too 2
The best internal company communictions

As long as they are one way my friend. Just try to put forward an opposing view to that of the management & watch how the poor soul will have his/her head ripped off if PM is in attendance. Go on, try it, I dare you. Say something completely controversial like, "I don't think it's right that we are still using out of date ILS approach plates for VCE with obsolete ILS frequencies & idents on them."

Topkapi737

You have issues buddy. Most of the FOs that I am flying with are excellent. If they lack experience then they should be coached by you not slated for lack of knowledge. It sounds to me as though you are having difficulties in flying to Channex SOPs, garbage as they are, they should be adhered to or else it can all go wrong very quickly. I'm sorry but you sound like the very worst type of contractor out there, one who gets the rest of us a real bad name. If your spoken English is as weak as your written English then may I be so bold as to suggest that you possibly have communication 'issues' with your crew & that could be the root cause of your problems with your FO.

The same FOs...are nice & quick to sneak reports into the CP at Bournemouth

Well my friend. At least three FOs did report a certain captain to the flight management team at BOH. They had serious concerns regarding the man's aptitude & ability. In at least two of the cases is was the FOs who saved Jet2 from potentially disasterous situations. What did Channex do? Well, one of the FOs was told by the MAN base manager that BOH believed that they were conducting a whispering campaign against this particular captain so they moved the captain to LBA! I believe that he lasted two days before nearly skipping off the runway & then they finally listened: they dismissed him. It took another near disaster with this pilot before they took action. Had this company listened to these FOs then we may not (and until the full inquiry findings are published I stress may not) have witnessed the dreadful scenes from Greece on our tv screens the other week. Jet2 were warned & sat & did sweet FA about him until he nearly cost them an aircraft. They are short of Captains & so long as they have a person with a licence in the LHS then that's ok, even if he or she is downright dangerous.

[topkapi737]

ok,so my engleeeesh not so good...contract pilots have a tough time so spare a thought guys..we see on average about 20 different types of sop during a single career...enough to confuse the shi* out of anyone...what we do is prioritieze..airmanship,judgement,skill...no contract pilot I know of goes against sop for the hell of it...they know when a situation calls for improvasation...what we dont like is some smart alec freshface giving us a lecture for 2 hrs on "we dont do that here" and then when hes PF,he totally screws up...its called "bare-faced cheek" in english,someone told me...and then they make report but they dont tell CP full story..they say Capt too fast,not making good call-outs,or just like another thread he didnt make one hold before approach-but they dont know..lot of airspace has no 250 k requirement or atc ask the impossible and you must trade speed for alt-visual approach,NO CALL OUTS,except 500 incapac call-but still they make calls approaching minima-I keep quiet and laugh to myself-
why are these younger guys being told only about flying using FMC and AP?why nobody tell them about pitch/thrust,raw data,recovering from above glide due bad atc-I dont blame these co-pilots..no,not at all-its the trainers,they dont give correct priorities...
crm is not so tangible you know...many different forms..one mans crm is anothers posion..good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type...if cockpit gradent steep,you cannot have same crm as for shallow gradent..it just dont work

no offence to jet2 -they try to make a little money in a difficult business-no offence guys

[Lucky Strike]

"good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type"

Another incorrect statement.

If your are the Captain, you take what resources are available to you and manage them; CRM is short for Cockpit Resource Managment in case your not sure.

If the First Officer is new on type it's up to you to create the working relationship; you make allowances for his lack of knowledge and experience on type whilst encouraging him to speak out and prevent you crashing the aeroplane.

[kotakota]

I had the misfortune to be positioned on jet 2 the other day when the OAT was 25c . The inside of the aircraft was unbearable.If they are waiting for the OAT to be reported as 31c , which they may well miss , the cabin temp will be pushing 40c before you know it with 148 pax.
Despite my protests , nothing was done. One of these days they will have a medically - weak pax on board , and Health and Safety will get involved. It is also extremely dodgy for flight crew to get too hot and expect to operate normally shortly thereafter.
The CAA should also have a word.

[The Potter]

The CAA should have more than a word with this outfit. They have real issues with an almost total disregard for flight safety if it interferes with their profits in any way.

Their treatment of the flight crews is the worst that I have ever heard of. Their culture is to listen to the word of just two men. Opinion is frowned upon. It wouldn't be so bad if those two men knew what they were talking about but they don't.

[Ignition Override]

Some Ppruners have been fired.

Watch out for libel in print. The Internet can be considered print.:ugh:

[jet2jockey]

So many looking to leave there might not be anyone left to fire... :ouch:

[RoyHudd]

Check out the findings and recommendations from the report. Certain cost-saving aspects like no autopilots needed to be remedied, and ditto for the absence of heaters. These were contributory to the fatigue of the crew, who in the end made a fatal mistake.

I agree with NSF that no company safety culture existed at Channex, and was happy to leave when I did.

Which is not to say that there were no good trainers who taught us how to fly, to operate commercially, and to stay safe. There were, but from the top there was no emphasis whatsoever on safety. It seems like the situation has continued.

[Jetavia]

Regarding the 737 fleet.

How many are the "ancient" classics with the old engine instrumentation (steam gauge) like on G-CELF?

http://www.b737.org.uk/panelcentreinst_300old.jpg


How many are the "newer" classics with the digital engine instrumentation?

http://www.b737.org.uk/panelcentreinst_300.jpg

[Bam Thwok]

Jetavia...

They're all as you term "steam guage"...

I for one much prefer this display...much easier to read !!

[MorningGlory]

I honestly feel sorry for you guys that have to put up with this sort of disgraceful wreckless attitude from your employer and an ignorant prat for a boss, who has a total disregard for safety.

Re-write your Cv's my friends and get out! None of you should have to put of with the conditions you are working with.

Surely even Ezy or FR would be better..?

[Trip Switch]

X-Centric

"How about ATC informing a crew shortly after rotation that they ..."have fuel spraying from the right wing..." & the passengers calling the cabin crew to inform them that they could see liquid coming from the wing. The Decision? Hell, lets carry on because the leak ceased at approximately FL120!"


Very dodgy posting this. I choose not to descend into a what, when, how and why discussion, nor do I feel it necessary to justify the actions of the crew who IMHO acted quite properly.

Suffice to say, not only are you wrong in detail, but you have notably omitted the precautionary diversion into BOH. Trust me, you've picked up the fag-end of a story here. Best left alone.

I wish you all the very best. Try not to let it eat you up inside.

Trippy

[X-Centric]

Trip Switch, here are the facts, & they are the facts, my friend as relayed to me by both the Captain & the FO who operated this particular flight.

They left MAN bound for MJV. They were notified of the fuel leak just after rotation by the tower. The FO confirmed the fuel leak, as it was spraying out of the right wing. The cabin crew were also alerted to the leak by panicking passengers seated at the rear right side of the aircraft. They continued to climb & the leak ceased at FL120. They continued to MJV without any tech stop. When asked about the implications to flight safety, with regard to his actions, the captain stated that there wasn't much of an imbalance on the fuel gauges, that the leak stopped at FL120 & he didn't want to disrupt an MJV flight as PM was often on this route!

In MJV there was no fault found so they brought the aircraft back into MAN, but this time the fuel leak ceased at FL 150!

The fact that an experienced man would take such an action just goes to show how much commercial pressure PMs dictatorship puts onto his crew. This is one of many appalling breaches of safety standards that goes through the very fibre of Jet2's operation. The truth.

[qwertyuiop]

Lets hope the public hear these stories. They can then chose who they fly with based on their safety rather than the cost!!

[Farty Flaps]

Just read thru the whole post. A few points if i may.
£3500 take home 737 uk charter/ newboy locost schedule......normal.
Call crewing after flight...uk charter/ new company..... normal.
CRM stands for crew resource management not cockpit.

As for the rest well ,flown them once on a company ticket. Man lgw delayed three hrs, nice day, no atc issues, tech problem. Return was one hour late no pressurisation . Flew back at 8000 or something. After about 25 minutes of flight time saw a big airport below . Took me a while to realise it was stn diue to the time we had been airborne, still dont know why Asked for another wine, bar closed. airborne another 25 mins. Having flown man stn (at 250 kts) a few times i know how much wine i can drink in said flight time. Utter disgrace. Could easily have got another 175 ml in.

Seriously though i refuse to accept a company position flight now until its changed to ba. Which was actually cheaper than jet 2 as a late booking. Its my ass , better the devil you know eh.

[Trip Switch]

X-Centric

Forgive me. I do not wish to pooh-pooh some very obvious concerns that you have. However, to suggest that crews are running round almost paralysed with fear from making a safe or correct decision due to the conversation they may or may not have on the ground when they get back is somewhat stretching it a bit.

I would venture the "PM often on this route" remark was supposed to be a comic throw-away add-on.

I would also like to add that on another similar occasion to the one you described, (except that at 2,500ft when the Captain went back to have a look, there was no visible leak) the crew made a precautionary diversion into BOH. The fault (a popped fuel vent valve - doing what it was supposed to) was rectified, the aircraft refuelled and off they went. No rants. No tea and biscuits. Not even a phone call asking them to justify their actions. Nothing. Not that day, not the next nor in the weeks that followed.

We are grown up people, capable of making grown up decisions and as pilots (both left and right seat), that is what we are employed to do. That is what PM employs us to do. You can't really imagine that in the drive for the dollar, he would be happy for the crews he employs to take risks that would see his baby sent to the wall. So what if he rants from time to time. It's his train set. We are supposed to be big enough and ugly enough to look beyond that (I certainly cover one those requirements :} ).

Trust me, as someone who has faced it, if he's wrong or if you have justified your decision, he will apologise, admit his mistake, thank you for your decision/vigilance/hard work and be the first to get in the round at the bar afterwards.

I'm sorry that you feel unable to stay in what I find to be a very happy working environment and have done for many years.

I wish you the best.

Trippy

edited for typos - late night!

[Pilot Pete]

- CEO is a potentially dangerous bully who likes to shout and rant at anyone from Service Air to Check In staff to Pilots.. He reduced an Aircrew to tears in MJV recently prior to departure just because they used the APU on the ground.
A CEO who thinks absolutely nothing about interfering with a turnround & issuing B0110ckings especailly if his blessed APU is fired up on stand, & upsetting the entire crew. A crew, by the way who then had to operate a flight back to the UK in an upset state! Flight safety? Fit to fly?
CHIRP was designed for just this sort of thing. Happened once in a previous airline I worked for with the MD turning up on the FD before flight trying to 'encourage' the flight crew to accept his new cost saving idea of a 'voluntary' salary reduction! Unbelieveable! CHIRP Director got involved he felt it such a serious flight safety issue and the MD was warned that if it occured again his airside ID would be revoked.

- The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews
Again, serious safety implications, both for passengers (as noted, the 'weaker' members of society may suffer with such a policy), not to mention flight crew performance at a critical time - pre-flight. CHIRP would seem a reasonable avenue once again if they just won't listen.....

- Roster stability is non-existant. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty.
I have worked under these conditions for a charter summer season and I was seriously fatigued at the end of it, without realising or understanding fatigue until it was too late. I made a serious safety error which was not picked up by the captain, probably for a similar reason and there but for the grace of God go I. Only solution is to stick it out and unify to force negotiation through a recognition agreement or to vote with your feet.

- It's been a hard summer for many. Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty. Sometimes only getting the legally required 1 day off. They are working towards 5 days max duty but it may be too little too late for some. Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent as well but seems to be improving a little lately.
Same as the point above.

There is a 737 operator just down the road in Doncaster which is actively looking for direct entry captains and experienced F/Os. They have 40+ years charter experience behind them and market leading terms and conditions. Starting pay is similar to that quoted on this thread, but the rest of the package is significantly better, with roster stability, block window protection (can't change a duty more than 2hrs off your rostered times or you can refuse it), no more than 3 early starts in a row and many more days off than CAP371. Oh, and you can sell some of those back if you want at £500 a day for a Captain or £350 a day for an F/O. And they operate out of Bournemouth and will soon start services out of Manchester. Crews are positioned by Hallmark cars or on scheduled flights, they don't have to pay for anything like this upfront, but with the company culture as it is very few would not pay out on the odd occasion there has been a cock-up to keep the ship on track. They have a superb safety culture and ranting and raving at staff is simply unheard off. Take a look if things are that bad. You could do a lot worse.

PP

[Bart O'Lynn]

Sounds rosy at donny pete. What a shame i turned it down. Still i can only deal with so many arrogant wannabe ba tossers in one life. Conditions might be contractualy better (grandfather conditions from by) but the bosses opinion of you and arrogance arent.

[X-Centric]

Trip Switch, it sounds very much as though the crew to which you are referring handled the situation very well, as it should be. The fuel leak that I write about was the complete opposite. It was unsafe in the extreme.

I do believe that many of my colleagues are absolutey terrified of losing their jobs if they cross PM or ID & to that end will not always be thinking clearly. The warnings that I received, when I unfortunately joined these cowboys, about always staying on the right side of PM were astonishing to anyone who has been a captain with any other airline. I sincerely believe that the hierachy of this company has the latent potential to pose a very serious impact on flight safety.

Rest assured that CHIRP have been informed about serious errors at Jet2 & by a number of people, I believe. As I've stated: my hope is that they begin to listen, to cease bullying their crew, to allow the engineers to make decisions when needed & to let the crew, who are unfortunate enough to have to stay, do the bloody jobs that they are paid to do.

If they keep on losing crew at the present rate then they will be forced to continue to employ captains who think nothing of carrying out fly pasts at approx. 10ft above the runway during the launch of a service & contractors who have 'done' just about every airline in Europe & beyond & can't find a position anywhere else because they are just marginal & known to be.

[Lucky Strike]

Maybe, Farty Flaps, maybe. Available from the CAA:

CAP 737: Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training

and also:

CAP 720: Flight Crew Training: Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) and Line-Oriented Flight Training (LOFT)

Would you correct me on the flight deck (or should it be cockpit) for such an oversight?

As you posted a while ago under Un-helpful, Un-Crew Orientated, Arrogant Captains: “Bitchiness is a way of life in this industry”…

[Chuffbaby]

I too worked for Jet2 and have since moved on. There are a lot of issues raised here that I believe have been submerged for far too long. If there was ever an airline which is in desperate need of collective representation (a Union) then Jet2 must be the prime candidate.

I personally have a great deal of respect for PM's drive and energy and one has to admire his business acumen. However, I would absolutely agree that there serious problems concerning the lack of a safety culture at Channex. Most concerns raised by crew are disregarded and all the critical decisions are taken by ID/PM who have neither the depth of knowledge nor qualifications to consider the flight safety implications of under-resourcing, undermanning and generally operating to the tightest possible margins. It may be good for profits in the short term, but my personal view is that the balance is firmly on the commercial rather than safety side.

My advice to my former colleagues would be to leave when the opportunity arrives. I have yet to find anyone who regrets the decision to go because other airlines invariably offer better lifestyles, better pay and treat their employees with more respect. Channex seems to be forgetting that it is very much a pilots' market at the moment.

There is of course the issue of a punitive £30K bond and the fact that many former F27 crews relocated at their own expense to the northern bases. The company has of course knowingly put you over a barrel on this one, so if you cannot get out, you should focus your energy into setting up a Pilots Union. It is a legal entitlement and it will strengthen your position immeasurably when it comes to addressing the issues that concern you all.

Talk to BALPA en masse and take your case to the Chairman, Capt Mervyn Granshaw. A number of contacts made by various Channex employees directed to Reg Allen have been puzzlingly ineffectual over the last few years. If BALPA will not get involved, just set up your own for starters. No-one likes blowing the whistle to organisations like the CAA (not to mention the potential implications for any individual caught doing so by the management), but you clearly need the individual protection and collective bargaining power that a Union willl afford you. Other airlines find that it works much better for ALL parties than putting your head in the sand and thinking that any complainers must be pure malcontents or troublemakers.

Best of luck!

PS Try and stay "on message" if you are posting to this forum. It would be a shame if this thread had to be removed with the threat of legal action against potentially libelous posts.

[pol1wx]

Hey here is an idea! If you don't like the way the company is run........LEAVE!


I'm sure Ryanair would snap you happy chappies up.

:ugh:

[The Potter]

Hey here is an idea! If you don't like the way the company is run........LEAVE!

Pol1wx That's just what a lot of the staff at Jet2 are doing, leaving. And if they have the good fortune to join Ryanair they will receive a stable roster pattern, they won't have to call into crewing at the end of every duty day, they'll earn far more money, fly brand new aircraft not heaps of taped together junk & get first class training from a company who knows how to operate a B737 as it was meant to. They will join an honest company who make no false promises, what you see is what you get. I'm sure much the same can be said of easyjet & Thomsonfly. So let's not turn this thread into another opportunity to bash Ryanair, select another one for that issue there are, unfortunately, many misinformed threads that you can find.

The guys at Jet2/Channex have real issues with regards to flight safety & the way in which they are being treated has an impact on their, & their passengers, well being. If the management refuse to do anything about matters then they have the chance to air their views & even fears on this website & via CHIRP. It may just improve their working lives & enhance their passenger's safety. Hope springs eternal, Baldrick! :O

[Op checked Satis]

Just a note regarding the level of add's,whilst i don't know the
average for Man the 9 LBA A/c certainly average less than 2 , generally the industry target

[rudolf]

Same for Manchester, average of about 2 per aircraft and all pretty much trivial stuff. Engineers seem to do a pretty good job.

[Homesick]

I once refused to take an aircraft due a tech problem which resulted in a hour delay. I also returned to stand last week which resulted in a two hour delay. I have been tech down route. I have not had a phone call or felt any pressure from management about my decisions.

Like many airlines with a shortage of flight deck they will employ contract pilots in the short term. Jet2 has not hesitated in sacking the undesiarble ones.

I do not feel any pressure to compromise safety.

Potter. Aircraft may be old but they are maintained to a high standard. There are hardly any deferred defects and the ones they have are rectified promptly. You also seem to know how much better it is elsewhere. How many other airlines have you worked for? Ever spoken to anyone who works for Ryan air? I have. They are put under far more pressure than us.

Jet2 is not perfect. Terms and conditions are not good and pay needs to be improved to stop a mass exodus.

[763 jock]

Just wondering what a type rated 757 Captain can expect? Most charter operators start at £64K ish, so are they filling the vacancies?

[Arkroyal]

My abiding memory of him will be 'early morning prayers' where all employees at the Bournemouth office had to turn up for the morning briefing given by the Ops Officers and supervised by PM himelf. Often after a night of freight operations in the middle of a UK winter they would have a number of difficult situations to handle like aircraft diverting all round the country due fog etc. After the briefing by the Ops guys, they would then be subjected to public abuse by PM in front of all the secrataries, suppliers, engineers etc and told how terrible their decisions were etc. It was a truly dreadful and demeaning sight and absolutely repulsed me (and virtually everyone else watching).Hear Hear Norman.

I voted with my feet to get out of Channex, just before two good friends were lost in Guernsey (no implication of corporate guilt here).

topkapi737

Your attitude worries me more than a little. If all you see around you are problems caused by others, it is a pound to a pinch of **** that YOU are the problem.

If it wasn't that you are still posting, I would have thought you might have been the late ex employee who rose to fame three weeks ago.

[GWYN]

I just couldn't resist posting the following comment from an close acquaintance, whom I referred to this thread:

"Many thanks for your email re. P. Me..... I was able to read all the comments and most of them just reinforced what I've been saying for 16 years!! The man is a bully and a complete 'nutter'"

[Odd Skipper]

Haven't been in the Airline business long - FO with Jet2 - (ignore stupid ID, it's impossible to get name you want).

I may not know many other Airlines, or have a great deal of flight experience.
However I have worked in commercially pressurised positions, and considering the money payed out in the Airlines, do not feel that Aircrew, or Captains have such a tough time.

Go and have a look in any other industry at a Management position earning £60K and find me someone who only works the relatively short hours we do. 9-5 ******** - they work 8 to 8 minimum, usually later and sometimes weekends too.

Fatigue and Safety in this Industry are obviously important, and should never be ignored, but should also never be used as an excuse to complain if they are not genuinely an issue.

My personal belief is that all employees should look for continuous improvement within their company. Too many people I've seen so far look for ways to stop others improvements (to balance this, I have seen many others actively working very hard to achieve savings, meet slots and times).

EG this APU SOP. I've heard a dozen times "someone will get killed" - please could someone explain how this will happen? As you've all said that the Management doesn't understand, well neither do I - please explain the exact danger. So far the only problems I've witnessed with this are the GPU tripping out, resulting in APU start and a 2 min delay.

APU use at Captain's discression - seen many Captain's decide to use the APU for various reason's (heat, GPU from airbridge or unknown reliability of GPU), none to my knowledge (and I'm sure they'd mention it during the six hours we spend together) have received any mention from the Management.

The Pay and Conditions granted are not the best in the Industry - but doesn't the grass always look greener!! - Heard two people mention Thomson as an unpleasant environment. But I wouldn't use a few people's advice stop me applying to them if I was thinking of joining them, I'd reserach it a bit more in depth.

In fact that's probably the main reason I posted here, just to give one more person's view.

I await my flaming as an inexperienced pilot - but not an inexperienced human being ;) .

[Trip Switch]

Odd Skipper, dear chap.

The reason for the concern regarding the APU policy is that unfortunately not everyone who works around the aircraft (ground handlers, caterers, fuellers etc.) has the required understanding of the potential danger that a running engine poses. (For 'engine', read 'bloody great Hoover').

A few months ago, after taxiing onto stand and having shut down the No.2 engine, one of our less aware ground handlers thought he was being helpful by moving the steps into position at L1 whilst his colleagues were still trying to connect the GPU. On a dark evening, when there were 6 or 7 handlers running around the front of the aircraft, it was purely by the grace of God that I even spotted this chap, only a few feet from the No. 1 engine (still running and sucking furiously - er... that's the engine, not the handler) and moving even closer. Much leaning out of the window, pointing and shouting quickly followed.

He meant no harm and genuinely thought he was trying to help, but nearly ended up as a bowl of chips with ketchup, ten feet further back. It still makes me shivver. I hope this has at least in part gone some way in explaining why you keep hearing that "someone will get killed". I'm sure others will have similar tales.

Even so, I have no particular problem with the APU policy and accept that I must remain highly vigilant until both engines are shut down. However, I also reserve the right to file an ASR when things are not safe.... as little or as often as that may be.

Nice point about the reality of threads like this. If someone is honestly going to base their career decisions on a couple of postings from people they know nothing about, wwwweeeeellllll......... Best of luck to them:ok:

Kindest regards

Trippy

[silverhawk]

If you have a query about any aspect of the flight/operation then please please please raise it with the captain. Otherwise you are essentially out of the loop.

No-one will think any the less of you for asking a question. There is no such thing as a daft question. You can be sure that a captain will query anything he/she is unsure about.

You learn something from everyone you fly with, some good things, some bad. The trick is to be able to distinguish between the two.

Please be assured that despite your self-confessed low experience, you will know stuff that the captain doesn't. You will catch them when they make yet another mistake. We all make them, that's why we operate two crew.

Ask ask and ask again

Good luck

[Pilot Pete]

However I have worked in commercially pressurised positions, and considering the money payed out in the Airlines, do not feel that Aircrew, or Captains have such a tough time. You may not think so, but aircrew, and captains in particular are paid for the responsibility they take on their shoulders. How many other 'Managers on £60k' a year do you know that take the lives of hundreds of people in their hands each time they go to work? How many of them have to make decisions, perhaps only once in a career (but they have to be ready to make that decision at ANY time on ANY flight) that could not only affect the safety of the flight, but could, if they get it wrong, lead to the failure of the company? Not many I would guess.

I have had these issues thrown at me before and the above is always the answer I give, usually with the reply comparing us to doctors. Well, I would argue that only Surgeons and Casualty doctors have a similar role, as the average doctor can practice within his limits and as soon as he is not sure, he refers the case on to a specialist, who does the same, refering it to a more experienced specialist, who does the same, refering it to the Professor who is the expert in his field.

Doctors are paid for the responsibility they take in knowing their stuff and making correct decisions, the difference being if they are unsure they can pass the problem up the line. We cannot. We manage, we keep our knowledge current, we are checked on this every six months, we hope we will never have to use it, but just one day in our careers we may have very limited time to make a decision......and low and behold if we get that decision wrong......


PP

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Odd Skipper

Like you I had another life before aviation but I have now been here a long time and over the years my views have changed. I accept there are many people working incredibly long hours in the outside world and many of them work under great pressure. You are, by your own admission, early in your flying career - hence the reason you have to work for Jet2! Like you when I got my first big break in aviation (with Channel Express as it happens!), I thought "this is the best deal in the world". I had fulfilled my ambition and it was great - I frankly would have paid someone for the privelege. The sentiment that at last you are doing what you want to do, soon changes as you face the harsh reality of unsociable hours, long periods of boredom and occasionally stressful moments when you feel at the limit of your skills. Taken over a period of years it adds up to becoming a highly experienced professional who can live and work under great pressure, work incredibly unsociable hours and be relied upon to apply technical knowledge and skill to make the right decision at the right time.

As you rightly point out that is no different from a number of professionals - and they are highly rewarded for their years of skill building and experience. I had an operation recently and in the 'pre-flight chat' from the surgeon I asked him if he ever felt out of his depth. This surgeon was a re-assuringly experienced guy who said that 98% of what he did he now did not have to think about any more - he just did it and also spent time within that teaching other aspiring surgeons to do the job. He did say that every once in a while he comes across a situation (2%) where he is absolutely at the limits of his ability and it is touch and go if he can save the situation and by definition the life or future well-being of his patient. That is the same for us - most of what we do is totally routine but every now and again we face a situation where every ounce of our technical and flying skill is required to recover a situation. That ability to do the '2%' is what we expect to be well rewarded for. We have taken many years to get to that position and know that in each flight a situation may arise where we have to step up to the plate and be counted. The fact it does not happen most of the time does not mean that we are not worth the big rewards that top professionals receive.

My argument with Jet2 is that PM and his cohorts are doing incredible damage to the cause of professional aviation in the UK They offer old aircraft, poor salaries, low adherence to SOPs, an absent safety culture and interference from above - the classic African/Eastern European solution to running rubbish airlines. I make no apologies for saying that their success is a threat to all that has made UK aviation among the safest in the world.

[The Potter]

Well said NSF. Couldn't agree more; this isn't just about how much we earn or whether or not we deserve it when compared to other industries. The leap from being a freight operator, with old heaps of junk flying around the skies, to low class passenger scheduled carrier is a worry when that same bullying, unaware attitude is transferred with it.

PM is cutting costs in all of the wrong places. He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant. He then fails to utilise them to their full potential as they spend most of the day either tech or sitting on the ground at MAN. He treats 'his' people with complete disdain & not an iota of respect. He fails to listen to his crew on anything as he is a control freak. They just might be able to save him some money if he did.

Old Skipper, the best of luck with your flying career, it sounds as though you have a good attitude & you will probably go far & have a fantastic time. When have the good fortune to leave Jet2 you will realise how much better this wonderful industry of ours really is. There are plenty of other issues that could be brought up on this thread to demonstrate to you just how unconcerned your airline is with the saftey of its crew & passengers but this thread is not the place for it. It will probably have its day: the past comes back to haunt you in avaiation, please remember that PM & ID. :mad:

[Shuperstar Loadie]

NSF,

You are a very bitter and twisted old man and with this attitude you have I and my fellow crew members at Channex/Jet2 are glad you are no lomger with us and pitty the poor company that you work for now.

Potter another person who is bitter. Stay where you are and dont throw stones coz as you say in aviation the past does come back to haunt you.

There are faults at Jet2 but most people work hard to rectify them or bring these matters to the right persons attention. Please both of you dont be bitter coz you never got on the 737.

[N Arslow]

Gentlemen,
A very interesting thread and the usual mix of postings.
How this reads is so much more compelling than say... the thread elsewhere for whether it is better to reach your first million flying in Hong Kong or the Great Sand Pit!
What sets this aside is the reality of being a pilot in the UK - pilots DO have a keen sense of right and wrong, an awareness for the business aspects but with focus on delivering a safe product.
I get paid to fly too, but at low level, single pilot looking for flashing blue lights etc. Thankfully I have less to worry about concerning safety - if I am unhappy I don't go and noone will question that (or at least, not with a knife hidden behind them).
Those who can should stand up and fight, those who cannot afford to lose will look elsewhere. For me - I am just grateful for what I have...

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Shuperstar Loadie

'Please both of you dont be bitter coz you never got on the 737.'

I now fly Airbuses - I daresay I will manage to overcome my disappointment over not flying a 737!

[757operator]

Wow! Do you fly any of those 10 slow-brained ex-Caledonian A320's that are about the same age as Jet2's 737's?

[Bob de Bildere]

The Potter,

You say “When have the good fortune to leave Jet2 you will realise how much better this wonderful industry of ours really is.”

A look at some of your past posts on PPRUNE, copied below, makes me wonder where you think the "wonderful" world is

On Ryanair

“Got to say part of me agrees with Prob 30. We are all getting a bit sick of easy & Ryanair pilots whinging on about their pay & conditions. You have an option guys: you can always leave.”

On Euro Celtic

“This apalling airline has taken the worst concepts of flagging out, paying for ratings & bonding agreements & put them all into one melting pot to produce the most inferior management system operating in Ireland or Britain. As I have said: you are far better out of it & all the very best of luck to you in your future careers. Don't let these bunch of$@#<£*s put you off.”

On BAC Express

“I'm speaking from absolute first hand experience, Tosh. They are a truly dreadful airline, they think nothing of you as an employee or your life outside of work. If you are BHX or EDI based you'll be clocking up a staggering 200-250 hours per year if you are lucky. You fly at night with no wx radar & usually no autopilot (F27). They make promises that they frequently break to the point of downright lying: & the thing that I hate the most is that they overcharge guys like yourself for next to useless type ratings. BAC have leeched off the pilot shortage & preyed on those at the bottom of the career food chain"

[pilothouse]

Pilots that have problems with Jet2 seem to be the ones who don’t accept that it is basically a one-man train set. Most of reckon that he has a proven track record and - so far - we are trusting him to get it right. We have heard the stories but the general impression is of a friendly and capable individual and we are happy to let him run it his way. His commercial success should lead to rapidly moving careers and better pay and conditions.

Unfortunately, if you get on the wrong side of things there is nowhere to hide. In a large airline you can be a thorn in management’s side for decades and get BALPA to protect you, but not in Jet2. Leaving is about the only option and this is why there are some very bitter employees and ex-employees.

At first sight Jet2 comes across as an employer with the ethics of a Victorian mill owner, so how come most pilots seem happy?

1. From the start, everyone you encounter is warm and friendly. Then you discover that if you give a bit and get a reputation for being pleasant and flexible, they will bend over backwards to help you. But go in there and thump the table before you’ve established a track record and you may never recover the situation. Just like any normal non-flying job, really.

2. Jet2’s safety ethic has been well and truly hung, drawn and quartered in previous posts. The main problem is simply that the infrastructure has not grown to match the activity so we don’t get enough follow-up and certainly no glossy incident summaries. However, what we do get is a no-blame culture and this is worth a million flight safety magazines. We also have an onboard atmosphere that is far more conducive to flight safety than the us-and-them of some well-established airlines. There is no evidence that top management holds safety in disregard - for example, there is no pressure on fuel uplifts because they don’t want a pilot to fly with less fuel than he is comfortable with. However, there is obviously a view that an airline should be run first commercially, with safety dovetailing as required. Jet2 would not be the first airline to do it this way.

3. The aircraft are indeed old (about the same age as some of the 757’s and 767’s of Monarch, Britannia and MyTravel) but generally well-maintained, despite what you may read above. The spare aircraft are not sitting around tech! It is just that with cheap aircraft Jet2 can afford to have spare ones to protect the schedules.

4. The aircraft are a delight to fly and the “steam gauges” are not a problem. Jetavia, the displays you would seem to prefer were in fact a factor in the Kegworth disaster. Are memories really that short?

5. The routes and their timings are about as perfect as you will get, though Manchester does get a considerably better deal than Leeds. Elsewhere in Jet2, maybe in Scotland, some pilots would seem to hardly notice going to work at all, in which case they are getting quite a good deal despite Jet2’s below-average salaries.

6. Consultation? There’s no BALPA or similar but if there is anything you don’t like you can simply pick up the phone. Recently I got a letter from the MD inviting me to reply to him personally if I had any comments about the forthcoming rostering improvements. And there’s a rep if I want to complain anonymously. Again, just like any normal non-flying job.

7. Interference? I've rarely had less interference from an employer, so I just get on with the job. Okay, the edict about the APU is irritating but there is a certain logic to it, and anyway I have sole discretion if I want to bend the rules.

8. SOP's. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that we try to avoid SOP's. They aren't very well presented but there are some gems that few other airlines have spotted. Everyone I fly with tries hard to follow them except maybe some of the contract guys but they will be leaving.

BUT! - despite the positives, Jet2 is far from perfect (where is?) and things will have to change if pilots are to be retained in the face of the ever-tightening jobs market. Pay, terms and conditions are indeed poor and few of us will hang around for ever just because it’s a very pleasant place to work.

[flybywire]

Dear Captain Norman Stanley Fletcher.............:hmm:
Please check your PMs....
Grazie!!

FBW:)

[Pulp Fiction]

I couldn't agree more with NSF, The Potter, X-Centric et al. I had the misfortune to work for Jet2 & I found them a thoroughly disagreeable company. They bully the crew when you work for them, position cabin crew by train, which they have to pay for themselves, stop them their £100 bonus even if injured whilst working, & then continue to bully you when you leave by witholding references & making demands for monies that you really don't owe them! They threaten court action to anyone who even slightly differs from their biased point of view & they don't listen when you tell them that they have a potentially lethal captain flying their aircraft....

The theme of this thread is the safety of the travelling public & it should be a priority with any airline: safety first then profit, not the other way round PM.

[Shuperstar Loadie]

As I work at HQ Jet2 in Bournemouth please tell me Pulp how you could have been bullied by 6 or 7 attractive ladies? Has one got a bit of a problem being told what to do by women?????

[Pulp Fiction]

As I work at HQ Jet2 in Bournemouth please tell me Pulp how you could have been bullied by 6 or 7 attractive ladies? Has one got a bit of a problem being told what to do by women?????

Well, S. Loadie, you possibly know full well that I am not referring to the lovely girls who work in Ops & Crewing. They are one of the few saving graces of Channex: they put up with quite a lot of crap & are very definitely understaffed, undervalued & underpaid by the company. All credit to them for constantly firefighting without even so much as a hose!

However, you cannot help but to walk through the doors at Channex & realise that the management team know only one style & that is to do things their way or not at all. The aircrew manager is a puppet who is so scared of losing his job that he just will not stick up for his crew: he is nothing more than a listening post. There are pilots who literally foul their trousers every time that PM walks into the crew room but have a lot to say when he is not around, some of it quite sensible & logical, they just daren't approach the man, or if they do it's to crawl up to him: "the answer is yes, P, now what's the question?"

Forgive me S.L. but you possibly don't fly, if you did you'd know that the cockpit gradient is totally wrong with this company. If you are a captain then you are regarded as part of the management team with all that that entails, if you are an FO then you are 'just' a member of staff. The problem with this is that your opinion is simply not regarded, you are good to simply fill in the paperwork. Had Channex listed to at least three FOs about a certain captain &, in fairness, listended to a very senior captain who took up their case, then we would very possibly not have witnessed the scenes on a Greek moutainside last month.

When you come to leave Channex then the bullying continues, examples: 1/ on first request for the return of your uniform; if you don't hand your uniform back we'll report you to the security services. 2/ if you don't work your four month notice period, that's right folkes, FOUR MONTH NOTICE PERIOD, then we'll charge you for every day that you are short by an extortionate amount. 3/ if you leave us within one year of joining then we'll charge you £5,000 even if you were 737 type rated & even if you leave on day 364.


Things need to change on the Jet2 side of things. Costs are being cut in all of the wrong places but the main change needs to be in attitudes from the management. You don't need to treat the staff who may disagree with you like ****, or the staff who simply want to leave the company like ****! It doesn't have to be like this. :ugh:

[topkapi737]

Had Channex listened to at least three FOs about a certain captain &, in fairness, listended to a very senior captain who took up their case, then we would very possibly not have witnessed the scenes on a Greek moutainside last month.

That's quite a claim.You already have your probable cause do you and of course no Brit would make the same mistake?Is arrogance like that very common in Essex...you certainly sound like a Jet2 guy.

SOP's. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that we try to avoid SOP's. They aren't very well presented but there are some gems that few other airlines have spotted. Everyone I fly with tries hard to follow them except maybe some of the contract guys but they will be leaving.

More arrogance...

[X-Centric]

That's quite a claim.You already have your probable cause do you and of course no Brit would make the same mistake?Is arrogance like that very common in Essex...you certainly sound like a Jet2 guy.

Sorry Topkapi737 but Pulp Fiction is making a very valid point. Please don't always take it so personally when any of us refers to a contractor. Of course the enquiry should tell us what happened to the Helios aircraft but this particualr captain was really bad & Channex ignored the problem. He allegedly had to nearly go off the end of the runway before Channex did anything about him. It's part of the whole with Channex... the management : staff gradient is out of balance & the captain : FO gradient is also out of balance & this has the potential to be downright dangerous.

Yes, Brits can screw up, this isn't a national thing either believe me some of my colleagues are British & some are good, some are bad & one can't keep awake long enough to know whether he is good or bad :eek:

[exrotarybooty]

As a piece of very interested SLF in this debate, I notice that the word 'Honest' is used in the thread title.

The Potter states:

"He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant".

Is this honestly true?

Pulp Fiction states:

"There are pilots who literally foul their trousers every time that PM walks into the crew room."

Is this honestly true Pulp? or Fiction?

As 'literally' means 'actually', (according to my English teacher many years ago), I wonder how these pilots bowels will react in a real emergency on the flight deck, just when we down the back are relying on them to do the 'professional aviator' bit. There was a joke in my time about two guys pulling off an emergency landing, and one asking the other in the smoking ruins, "Can you smell anything?" to which the other replied, "Smell it?!! I'm SITTING in it". It was just a joke though.

Moreover, I'm surprised that Jet2 want these uniforms back so promptly if they are constantly being fouled by pilots, unless it's in the interests of hygiene.

Let's try and keep it 'honest' cos we believe you guys.

ERB

[toppledgyro]

I don't often bother to post anything on PRUNE, but as a current Jet2 pilot I've been following this thread with interest like many others.

I would like to register my agreement with Pilothouse's point of view. I suspect that the rest of the 'silent majority' feel the same way. Unfortunately, it is often only those with an axe to grind who feel strongly enough to put pen to paper - which is unfortunate and tends to give outsiders a very inaccurate and biased view of the subject. Nothing in life is perfect!!

[cactusbusdrvr]

TopKap, you seem to be very pleased with yourself but if you fly the way you post then you have got to be the worst example of a contract captain out there.

It's been a while since I flew the 737 but I know that flaps 5 and 220 kts is putting a hell of a strain on the flap tracks. If you use Boeing limit speeds all the time then you are just abusing the aircraft. Slow to BSEC, then start flap extension. If you get hosed by ATC (who doesn't) then boards out, gear down flaps on speed will get you in. We always called the gear the Mexican speed brakes because it works and there are no gear doors to rip off. Got to give the French credit, speedbakes WORK on the aircraft they design.

A 3 degree glideslope is 300 feet per nautical mile. If you are putting the gear down below 1500 feet AGL (5 mile final) then you are flying an unstable approach and you better have briefed this technique and have your sh## together, i.e. no adverse winds or wx to contend with. Final flaps for any carrier I have ever heard of are required to be out by 1000' above the airport VFR or by the FAF IFR.

God forbid you ever try to fly the 757 because if you try your stunts then it will eat your lunch.

Are you advocating landing unspooled? That's not a great recipe for career longevity. I just read where Quantas and UPS have been testing flight idle descents to the FAF from criuse altitude. Even on a 767 all they are saving is 800 pounds of fuel. I can piss that away with an extra 15 minutes of taxi delays or running a tenth higher Mach speed or more than 2000' above or below my optimum altitude. It's efficient and the Quantas way is safe since they only go to the FAF but it is a lot of work for just a little savings.

I have flown with new F/Os all my career. One of the last new guys I flew with had zero turbine time (he was a high time DC 3 and Beech 18 captain). All you have to do to get the respect and admiration that you seem to demand is to let him fly and talk him through what he plans for the approach before top of descent. That way you can offer suggestions and you don't get surprised on final. Generally all I ever add to a F/O's approach briefing is "stop before the end" and "make sure the aircraft is reusable".

[The Potter]

"He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant".

Is this true? Yes.

[trainer too 2]

"He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant".

So if a carrier goes bankrupt the aircraft devaluates from being a great aircraft to scrapmetal overnight?? I have seen Boeing and major lease companies parkbrand new aircraft in the desert too, also scrap metal?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=568874&size=L&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20747-400%20%28NY-1%29%27%29%20NAQ%20%28cynpr%20%3D%20%27Znenan%20-%20Cvany%20Nvecnex%20%28Fvyire%20Oryy%20NUC%29%20%28ZMW%29%2 7%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=3&tbl=


:rolleyes:

[Harrier46]

While agreeing with most points about PM and his dictatorial methods I cannot fault his business ability, apart from maybe being caught out by the regulators and forced onto the AIM market! But the aircraft are safe, economical, well maintained and do the job for which they are intended. The CAA have deemed them fit for the UK Register and if they were picked up for a bargain price what's the problem? Perhaps certain people who can only see themselves up front in a brand new shiny Boeing or Airbus need a reality check or a lesson in economics! Plenty of life left yet in the 737-300!

[Capt.Slackbladder]

Would any current Jet 2 pilot care to tell me what your -300 MEL says about flying an unpressurised flight at FL100? Just curious??

[screw fix diret]

How's the recruitimg going for the 75's then? Will they be using contract pilot's or can they find enough of thier own people?

[INKJET]

It seems that you can take the airline out of the cargo market, but not the cargo mentality out of the airline!!

Very ballsy move with the 757, reminds me of when Capital ordered the BAe 146's

If a tenth of whats on here is true, then i guess Jet2 & PM are on the CAA radar already (they do read/monitor Pprune)

To their credit (Jet2) they have transformed LBA from a quiet,scruffy little windy airport into a busy scruffy little windy airport, but at least they are having to spend some serious money airside now.

Viktor

[Pulp Fiction]

Would anyone from Senior Management at Channex like to comment on their A300 which was on scheduled maintenance in Bahrain after 09/11 & sabotaged by a member of the engineering company, & the subsequent 'vote' that was taken by the two most senior people within Chancers, sorry, I mean Channex, NOT to inform the flight crew who were about to air test it that it had been subjected to such an attack?

Do you feel that you risked the lives of the pilots & flight engineer who couldn't work out what the hell was wrong?

Did you think of the possible ramifications had this aircraft crashed?

More importantly, has your attitude changed now that you are flying human beings around? Are you sorry? Looking through this thread it wouldn't appear so.

[757manipulator]

A 3 degree glideslope is 300 feet per nautical mile. If you are putting the gear down below 1500 feet AGL (5 mile final) then you are flying an unstable approach and you better have briefed this technique and have your sh## together, i.e. no adverse winds or wx to contend with. Final flaps for any carrier I have ever heard of are required to be out by 1000' above the airport VFR or by the FAF IFR.

God forbid you ever try to fly the 757 because if you try your stunts then it will eat your lunch.

Well the UK airlines flying the 757 Ive worked for, its 160kts to 4 miles..flap 15 (no special brief), then gear down flap 20 etc...where in any of that is an unstable approach?

Next thing your gonna say is use loads of rudder for an upset recovery:hmm: