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halo
30th Aug 2005, 21:49
I know we've had a lot of threads along these lines lately, but I felt it was time to see if we as PPruners can't improve the world of motoring. Now, I am by no means a perfect motorist, but I like to think that I was taught by a very competent instructor who instilled in me a lot of good practices and habits. So, I thought I would share with you all the things that bug me during the hours I spend in the car. If you are guilty of any of these then please share with us why you do them, and if you have some to add then feel free to do so.

- Driving in the middle lane on a 3 lane carriageway despite there being bugger all in the left hand lane. Are you adverse to the "slow lane"?? Does it make you feel inferior to drive at 80mph in this lane?? Do you understand the sarcastic statement I am trying to make by overtaking you from the slow lane, across to the fast lane, past you and all the way back again?

- Indicators. Somewhere out there will be a little guy who has spent his entire life perfecting indicators to make them as user friendly as possible. Yet, hardly anybody seems to use them. People seem quite content to swap from lane to lane or dive for junctions without any indications at all. Also, there are people that do stupid acts and then indicate after they have done them, as if to say "oh, I know I've just done something stupid and am making a pathetic attempt to use my indicators"

- Acknowledging people after they have let you out or given the way to you. This is just pure courtesy. Not doing it is plain rude. If you can't be arsed lifting your hand to say thanks then maybe you should go to the gym and develop the muscles so that you can do it. Having spent last week driving around Jersey, it was refreshing to find that people acknowledge each other all the time. Have some decency to your fellow man

- Driving whilst on your mobile phone/eating a messy sandwich/smoking a fag. If you are so bothered about dropping food/cigarette ash on you then don't smoke/eat in the chuffing car. And if you are so desperate to send a text message and weave all over the m25 at the same time then perhaps you should pull over.

- Not stopping at red lights. Running red lights isn't clever. People get hurt/killed when you jump a light even by a fraction of a second

- Yellow Box Pillocks. They are there for a reason. The idea being that you shouldn't stop in one unless the exit is clear. This includes bus drivers and taxi drivers in London who like to set up camp in them. The reason the roads are so congested is because you are all sat in these boxes stopping everybody else from using the junctions

- Driving beyond your ability. Let's face it... If you aren't Schumacher or one of the other motorsport professionals then you shouldn't be driving around like a man with his nuts on fire. Driving well beyond the speed limit in any area is a recipe for disaster. You might think you are safe... but the rest of us think you are a prick!! And to the man who came round the corner in the 30 zone where I live the other day and crashed into the wall because he couldn't control his car at speed..... you're are a berk and you deserve it!!

- Driving in bus lanes. Spend a day travelling about on the bus and you will see how infuriating it is when somebody sits in the lane and causes chaos..... Buses should be fitted with cowcatchers to run you idiots into the correct lane

- Road signs. Signs are there to make your life easier believe it or not. They tell you which road you need to take to get to a certain place and also which lane you need to be in. Likewise, often helpful hints are painted in white on the road surface. So why do you insist on changing lanes at the last minute? Can you not read? Is your eyesight bad? Are you just a bit simple?

- Cone Lanes/Lane Closures. Distance signs tell you how long before the lane closes. Yet people still insist on driving right up to where the lane closes and then trying to muscle in. I'm not going to let you in. It's a simple as that. I've patiently waited in the queue and yet here you are trying to squeeze in, making everybody stop and let you in. Have a bit of decency and join the queue like the rest of us

- Speed cameras - Driving at speed up to a camera and then slamming the brakes on causes more crashes than anything else in the UK. So why do it?? Why not ease off the accelerator and let the car gently coast down to the correct speed and then accelerate afterwards if you are so hellbent on breaking the limit. I can guarantee that if I run into the back of you because of this I will tell insurance, police, solicitor for whiplash claim and let everybody know you did!!

- Misjudging distances and speeds when you pull out into traffic. I'm driving along in a 60 zone. You are sat at a junction waiting to pull out. I am doing 60 miles and hour. You are doing 0 miles per hour. Yet when I am barely metres away from you, I see you squeeze your woefully underpowerd car into my lane forcing me to brake hard. Then, to make things worse..... your car has a 0-62mph time of 25 seconds, of which you aren't making the most of.

More to come...... I promise

handysnaks
30th Aug 2005, 21:55
There, there.....
Do you feel better now you've got all that off your chest?;)

Foss
30th Aug 2005, 22:08
Holy Lord, Halo, caught in traffic? Bit of spare time with the laptop?

When is the book coming out? ;)

halo
30th Aug 2005, 23:25
yeah, felt like a rant......... It's driving me insane..... This is what happens when trucks containing hydrogen peroxide explode on the m25...... You get a lot of time to sit and think :)

Leezyjet
30th Aug 2005, 23:46
Halo,

Completeley agree.

Had an argument with a taxi driver a few weeks ago about yellow boxes. He insisted I should have pulled forward into the yellow box despite the road I was turning into being completely blocked by traffic, and if I had done, then I would have created more congestion as the oncoming traffic would not have been able to go anywhere once the lights changed for them so I stayed where I was until the traffic had moved sufficiently for me to enter the road.

Also where I live is predominantly a "multicultural society" and most of the "multiculturals" seem to be able to do almost every one of those things you listed at the same time !!!.

:)

Unwell_Raptor
30th Aug 2005, 23:59
"- Speed cameras - Driving at speed up to a camera and then slamming the brakes on causes more crashes than anything else in the UK."


This assertion is nonsense and is backed by not a shred of evidence.

If you can find me one single verified instance of this happening in the UK this year I will send a tenner to Oxfam.

halo
31st Aug 2005, 00:16
with pleasure........ I am more than happy to show you the pictures of a friends car that was written off by this very thing....... or is it that you are one of the clots that does this?

Of course my source is the Highways Agency...... but they are always wrong!!

Actually while I'm at it............

I should show you the pictures of my car that was destroyed only 3 weeks ago by some div driving an HGV that reversed into me on a busy main road......... It's not like I was even close to him...... I had not been your typical BMW driver, and left the entire junction clear so that motorists from the opposite direction could enter or leave the junction. Yet somehow he managed to reverse 30 metres across the junction and into the front of my car.

At least the bloke had good sense to jump out of his truck and admit liability to me there and then. Good job my witnesses saw that I was stationary at the time!!

TheFlyingSquirrel
31st Aug 2005, 00:20
Airline pilots make crap drivers - ITS OFFICIAL !

Too relaxed and no bells to go off !

halo
31st Aug 2005, 00:26
AND,

While I'm on a rant again.........

Why do I, and all the other law abiding motorists have to pay for all you scumbag uninsured drivers out there? If you can't afford to get insured..... don't buy a bloody car!! If you can't afford to have it maintained to a legal standard........ don't buy a bloody car!!

People with kids who aren't strapped in - I don't care what you do with your kids..... but I do care if they get ejected out of their seats via the front windscreen. They don't get a choice in this matter, but you do, as a parent, to make sure they live through your crappy driving. I was driven into by a lady a few years back who had 6 kids in the back of her Mondeo, none of whom were strapped in. When she came round to the house to discuss it with me, her and her husband kept highlighting to me that their three kids were well strapped into the car...... until I pointed out that whilst taking pictures of the damage I happened upon the one showing the 6 kids leaping about all over the place. Strange how quickly they admitted liability provided I didn't tell their insurance company about it!!

fireflybob
31st Aug 2005, 00:33
>- Driving in the middle lane on a 3 lane carriageway despite there being bugger all in the left hand lane. Are you adverse to the "slow lane"?? <

I believe there is no such thing as the "slow lane" - but the other two are called the "overtaking lane(s)".

halo
31st Aug 2005, 00:36
so what exactly are you overtaking on a ghostly quiet dual carriageway that requires you to be in the middle lane?

For Unwell Raptor

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15800504%26method=full%26siteid=55768%26headline =speedcam%2ddoubles%2dsmashes%2don%2dm%2dway-name_page.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/80

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4439123.stm

http://www.speedcheck.co.uk/pressStory08.htm

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pr142.html

This one is my favourite one:
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,15149-1665429,00.html

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/discussion/speed-cameras-and-speed-limits/429837/

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/151/151032_jambuster_raps_speed_cameras.html


Better send that Ayrton Senna (topical!! ;) )

PPRuNe Radar
31st Aug 2005, 01:09
- Cone Lanes/Lane Closures. Distance signs tell you how long before the lane closes. Yet people still insist on driving right up to where the lane closes and then trying to muscle in. I'm not going to let you in. It's a simple as that. I've patiently waited in the queue and yet here you are trying to squeeze in, making everybody stop and let you in. Have a bit of decency and join the queue like the rest of us

Actually ... it's those in the left lane who are in the wrong here ;) The Highways Agency recommend that both lanes are fully used and traffic should then merge in turn. That way your 3 mile queue becomes a 1.5 mile one and everything flows a lot smoother. They call it 'zip merging'.

It doesn't permit people to push in of course, but if you're merging lane about then the most you should have to wait is for one car to pull in in front. Then you go .. the car behind you lets one in .. then he goes, etc, etc.

Amazing the sheep who will sit in the left when the right lane is clear for miles :p Make them sit their tests again :ok:

Jerricho
31st Aug 2005, 01:27
Amazing the sheep who will sit in the left when the right lane is clear for miles

Must admit, you guys in Blighty are pretty good at the merge in turn. The bastards here haven't got a fricken clue and do the sheep thing. They ALSO seem to take great exception at anyone who does use the right lane and do their utmost to block it and not let anyone in when you come to the merge point. I've leant out the window a few times to question the inteligence of drivers who don't know how to merge in turn........usually involving casting dispersion on any sexual activity they have had with their mothers.

Duckbutt
31st Aug 2005, 08:17
with pleasure........ I am more than happy to show you the pictures of a friends car that was written off by this very thing (someone braking hard on spying a speed camera)....... or is it that you are one of the clots that does this?

Was he the one doing the sudden braking or did he run into someone doing this Halo, thus proving he was driving too close to the person in front?

Krystal n chips
31st Aug 2005, 08:20
Some interesting views here as expressed by halo--most of which I concur with btw. A classic example. Last Friday, M62 heading East towards Manchester--the Westbound c/way has a serious accident--caravan overturns and blocks the outside lane / central reservation in both directions. All traffic comes to a grinding halt--obviously--so what do the :mad: sub itellectual retards do ? Those on the Eastbound c/way--which is 3 lanes at this point--elect to try and weave their way across 3 lanes of standing traffic--over the hatched section--and onto the M6 slip road --2 lanes at this point---which beggars belief !! who, in their right mind, attempts to cross 5 lanes, two moving, of traffic on a Motorway with all the evident potential for another serious accident--and quite a few did not make it due the the fact an awful lot of people got "really upset" at this action---the discussion between the :mad: in the Audi and one HGV driver was, erm, highly entertaining---even more so as the Audi was forced to join the rest of us and remain on the M62 !.

Zip merging ??----fine, in principal--bit like communism though, it fails to take into account the minor detail of--- human nature--hence, no matter how much you try and educate people as to the principle and how it should work--the sheep will never be able to comprehend it.

Unwell_Raptor
31st Aug 2005, 08:55
Halo,

Not one of those sites you mention goes one inch towards backing up your ludicrous assertion that braking for cameras "causes more crashes than anything else in the UK".

Most of the quotes in those pieces are unsupported assertions from the pro-speeding lobby.

And I'm interested to see that you are in favour of strict law enforcement for insurance offences, but against it for speeding. Isn't that a bit odd?

angels
31st Aug 2005, 08:57
I can guarantee that if I run into the back of you because of this I will tell insurance, police, solicitor for whiplash claim and let everybody know you did!!

I can guarantee that if you plough into the back of someone it means you were driving too close to them.

VitaminGee
31st Aug 2005, 09:27
Indicators. Somewhere out there will be a little guy who has spent his entire life perfecting indicators to make them as user friendly as possible. Yet, hardly anybody seems to use them In my experience, the bigger/more expensive the car the less likely the driver will use the indicators - X5 and Merc M Class drivers being culprits in chief!:}

TheFlyingSquirrel
31st Aug 2005, 09:33
What on earth do you need indicators for ? If you haven't worked out by now what the moron in front is about to do then before he does it, then you just shouldn't be driving ! I know the way they're going to go before they do - most drivers are so thick, you can anticipate their slow, obvious and predictable manouvers way ahead of them actually performing them ! Anyone who drives a silver Merc of any description is a total scumbag - the silver Merc is the total w**** mobile - but they always have the power to f*** you !

philltowns
31st Aug 2005, 09:41
You whinge about people braking the speed limit, then say that those doing 80mph on the M-way should be in the slow lane - if you always stick to the speed limit, then surely someone doing 80mph wouldnt be a problem to you as you couldnt possibly be waiting to overtake them???

halo
31st Aug 2005, 10:11
I'm not against strict penalties for speeding offences at all. The speed limits are clearly stated and if you are over them then you deserve to be done by whatever means. I happen to have cruise control on my car and set it at 70mph when on the motorway. Its also pretty good for the fuel economy as well

My friend who had his car wrecked was "Two chevrons apart" when the guy in front of him hammered on his brakes at the camera and that distance closes very very quickly. There was nothing he could do at the time to avoid slamming into the rear of the preceding car.

Unwell Raptor... Having done a bit more research this morning I stand corrected by your good self. The Highways Agency and Surrey Police both told me today that in fact the majority of accidents caused on motorways and roads are by tailgating. So I have forwarded my 10 to MacMillan. I am interested though as to why you appear to support the panic braking for cameras? Surely a little bit of forward planning would allow you to coast gently past the camera rather than hoon on the brakes

Duckbutt
31st Aug 2005, 10:21
Excuse me for not quite grasping your point, Halo, surely IF your friend had been driving at the speed limit when the bloke in front braked hard to also get down to the limit, unless the latter almost stopped your friend could not possibly have hit him.

Doesn't matter how many chevrons there were painted on the road, your friend went up the back of the other car QED he was driving too close.

Capn Notarious
31st Aug 2005, 10:36
One of my collegues was telling me. That whilst cruising the auto routes of France, they noted pairs of motorcycle police; pulling alongside cars and checking : like no seat belts unrestrained children etc.
One photo, DVLC oh and maybe a stop, certainly a fine.

Grainger
31st Aug 2005, 10:39
. . . cruise control on my car and set it at 70mph . . . Perhaps your friend had let his brain drift into cruise control . . . ?

MikeJeff
31st Aug 2005, 10:48
My friend who had his car wrecked was "Two chevrons apart" when the guy in front of him hammered on his brakes at the camera and that distance closes very very quickly. There was nothing he could do at the time to avoid slamming into the rear of the preceding car.

One of those little quircks Halo.. if you go into the back of someone, as far as the insurance is concerned it's your fault.. end of.

Same with running folk over I think!?

click
31st Aug 2005, 10:57
most drivers are so thick, you can anticipate their slow, obvious and predictable manouvers way ahead of them actually performing them

I like that statement, but we have a challenge here trying to find the thick, slow drivers. There is a requirement to actually be in possession of a brain in order to be thick and slow. Therefore, most driving in CZ is performed on a cellular level....neurons send message....muscles spasm...foot goes through floor..pedals alternate.

halo
31st Aug 2005, 10:59
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
most drivers are so thick, you can anticipate their slow, obvious and predictable manouvers way ahead of them actually performing them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thing is.... Can the drivers who fit the above description spot the other people who fit the above description and take action to prevent an accident?

CosmosSchwartz
31st Aug 2005, 11:23
I'm amazed, it took half a page before anyone slagged off BMW drivers, and now we've progressed to Mercs! Because you obviously adjust how you drive depending what car you're in:hmm:

Amazing how many people point out what should be done on the roads according to the highway code, but completely ignore this part :

Dual carriageways
116: On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. If you use it for overtaking move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so.

117: On a three-lane dual carriageway, you may use the middle lane or the right-hand lane to overtake but return to the middle and then the left-hand lane when it is safe.

419
31st Aug 2005, 11:30
One of those little quircks Halo.. if you go into the back of someone, as far as the insurance is concerned it's your fault.. end of.

Unless of course, he's reversing:ok:

bear11
31st Aug 2005, 11:57
Oh, so true, 419 - a few years ago, following someone (can I say a woman driver?) through suburbia in very heavy rain, came to a T junction, the car in front braked and disappeared from sight after turning left. I did the same, turned left and accelerated, only to look up and see the car reversing back towards me - armageddon. I hit the brakes and the horn very hard and just tapped the back of her car, ran under her bumper as my car was down braking and the arse of her car was up reversing. She had obviously realised she had taken the wrong turn and was reversing back to the junction to go the other way!

I got out of the car, cheery wave to the 2 women who got out of it, had a quick look - "oh, no damage done, gotta run!" - with my gf at the time who was with me just about to open her mouth, I dragged her back to my car and shoved her in the door, jumped into the drivers seat and headed off. The gf stared ranting at what the daft woman had done, why hadn't I taken her details and given her a bollocking for driving like a retard, and then calmed down completely when I pointed out 'twas I had run into the back of her and hadn't a leg to stand on. I had to get the bumper resprayed, but could have had a much larger bill. Imagine an insurance company getting their hands on that one!

Burnt Fishtrousers
31st Aug 2005, 14:15
Leezyjet

Had an argument with a taxi driver a few weeks ago about yellow boxes. He insisted I should have pulled forward into the yellow box despite the road I was turning into being completely blocked by traffic, and if I had done, then I would have created more congestion as the oncoming traffic would not have been able to go anywhere once the lights changed for them so I stayed where I was until the traffic had moved sufficiently for me to enter the road.

Thats the idea to cause congestion. If you are a taxi driver and the meter is ticking way whilst in traffic you are earning more money per fare than if the trafic was moving...Notice how taxi drivers always slow down if they approach a green light that has been green for some time..theres every possibility it may change to red before otherwise getting through....:E

D SQDRN 97th IOTC
31st Aug 2005, 14:52
rubber necking - I hate rubber necking

the times I have sat in a 5 mile tailback, only to find there has been no accident, but that the tail back is caused by other drivers slowing down to gawp at something happening either on the hard shoulder, or on the other side of the motorway.
and then when you rubber neck yourself, you find the bugger in front has slammed on his brakes and into the back of him you go.........
and now there really is an accident to make the 5 mile tailback become a 10 mile one

and as for the center land owners club - why go out to right hand lane to over-take? just imagine you are in Germany and whizz down the inside, or make an even bigger statement by using the hard shoulder (like the "maniac drivers on drugs and dope" in an article in the sun today)

and speed cameras....don't you just hate it when you can't slam your brakes on to avoid getting a speeding ticket because that ambulance with the twos and blues on full song would crash into your rear....so you keep going and wince as the light flashes?

or the lions and the way they played against the all blacks
now that really makes my blood boil !
the way they started so well, and then slammed on the brakes...and the rest is history really

Maude Charlee
31st Aug 2005, 20:14
My own personal hate is the constant speed driver - you know, 40mph on the open road and continuing at 40 in urban areas. Their warped and limited mental functioning obviously reasons that 40mph is a nice safe speed. I'm sure it is, right up to the point you collide with one of those funny squishy objects that tend to be found wandering about in urban areas, where coincidentally the traffic is at its most dense (a bit like the constant speed driver) and there are also the greatest number and variety of obstructions/distractions.

Romeo Charlie
31st Aug 2005, 20:43
People who fail to look left when turning left from a side road to a main road.

I've lost track of the number of times I've been overtaking a row of parked cars/bicycle/ubloading bus etc only to have some total twattock swing out of the side road on the right straight into my path.

Once the driver of a certain blue Ford Focus made that mistake and disappeared under my front bumper - shame I was in an HGV at the time......................

halo
31st Aug 2005, 21:13
I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds these things annoying. I was starting to wonder if there is something wrong with my nature. I just wish people would take a little more care and have a little more consideration for others when driving around in a lethal piece of equipment. I have nothing against BMW or Mercedes or Porsche or any kind of car owners as long as they are using it in a responsible manner. I mean, you wouldn't do the same mental things in a aircraft would you? And you are less likely to hit something in the sky!!

Unwell_Raptor
31st Aug 2005, 21:35
Halo, you have hit it spot on:

"I mean, you wouldn't do the same mental things in a aircraft would you? And you are less likely to hit something in the sky!!"

A lot of regular JB posters are fully trained and aware pilots who are used to total discipline as to height, speed and procedures. Yet these same people reject any kind of control when they drive a car on a road.

Logic? I don't think so.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
31st Aug 2005, 22:33
I've had a day working at home, so no commute or travel. Except two 2 mile trips into Wilmslow on 'taxi service' (younger daughter and friend). On both trips, women drivers pulled out of side roads in front of my car, causing me to brake hard to avoid an accident. What the ****'s going on? Is my car invisible?

It seems they just expect everyone else to get out of their way. And the look on their faces - blinkered straight-ahead stare, no eye contact, total denial that they did that!

Is there something in the air today? It's not usually this bad! But I am convinced that women are becoming the more agressive drivers on our roads. Especially some of the 'Chavballers' wives' we unfortunatly get around here these days.

SSD

DG101
31st Aug 2005, 23:15
Have a look here for an example of total stupidity
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/4201794.stm>
:uhoh: :uhoh:

Edited 'cos I haven't yet figured out how to post <a href=

eal401
1st Sep 2005, 08:19
if you go into the back of someone, as far as the insurance is concerned it's your fault.. end of.

I was once driving at the speed limit and a safe distance behind a Lancashire County Council vehicle, a fairly new one too. Suddenly, I realised I was about to run into him and slammed on the brakes just in time. He had slowed to a stop with not one of his brake lights functioning!!

I took his registration number (he sped away over the 30 limit, so I couldn't catch him) and called the police.

Result? A patronising lecture from the police officer about I would have been at fault if I had hit him!!!!!

So, when I have ever seen a non-roadworthy vehicle since, I don't bother doing the police's job anymore.

Tw*ts.

halo
1st Sep 2005, 09:12
I was in a car park in Guildford yesterday when a lady in a VW Golf tried to pull into a space, and instead scratched all the way down the side of another motorists shiny Audi Estate. She got out of the car, was joined by her kids, who all had a good look at it and then she shrugged and walked off. No note, nothing!!

So I felt it was my civic duty to leave a note with all the details on the Audi drivers windscreen. He was most grateful when he called me later that day.

Some people are just barstewards!! If you can't drive into a parking space you shouldn't be in a car!!

BigEndBob
1st Sep 2005, 09:14
Brother in law and family driving late at night through Lincolnshire.
Car kept driving close up to bumper and then dropping back.
Said he felt like slamming on the brakes to make the car crash into the back of him.
Eventually the brother in law had enough and pulled to one side only to be overtaken by a police car!

mickjoebill
1st Sep 2005, 09:46
Yesterday I witnessed the most appaling driving.
Sat behind a guy in slow moving traffic in the "fast lane" on the M25, he seemed to be weaving a bit and favouring the left hand side of the road.


There was a near collision when a motorcyclist tried to get through the gap and this jerk seemed to sweve to stop him!
It quickly became apparent that this guy was intent on blocking *all* motor cyclists from passing!
This went on for 30 minutes with 10 bikers getting really pissed....

He had two kids in the car who were spotting for him.

Mickjoebill

Canary Boy
1st Sep 2005, 11:43
Ahhh - roundabouts!! Agree with the excessive approach speed point, but in my view the inability to approach in the correct lane (where more than one is available) or the same inability to remain in the correct lane once on the roundabout are even worse. (If a driver is not familiar with that particular road's layout and find themselves in the wrong lane - go round again - its easy!!)

And another thing ... combine the vehicles not fitted with indicators with roundabouts and an inability to approach/remain in the correct lane...

Saw a driver get her comeuppance - tried to get onto the roundabout ahead of an artic who was going straight ahead off of the roundabout, she wanted to take the next exit. She drew alongside (inside) said wagon and didn't realise that they need a LOT more room on smallish raoundabouts (and may have blindspots) - her car was literally shoved onto the grass in the middle.

MikeJeff
1st Sep 2005, 11:50
Roundabouts..

Bit of a question for the forum here!!

In my town there is a roundabout. The single carriageway, splits into two and if you turn left you go in the left lane. Easy!

Now.. the road to the right leads to a carpark and a McDonalds, so it's not a "proper" road. So to go straight over the roundabout everyone uses the right hand lane!

Personally I think this is wrong.. so which lane woul you use!

Krystal n chips
1st Sep 2005, 12:13
One of my pet hates about roundabouts are those where the lanes become "streamed" as it were ---the one on the M25 at Stansted springs to mind here--the white lines resemble a marshalling yard in some cases--so you invariably get a lot of lane changes by people unfamiliar with the system--plus--another little quirk that seems to have become the fashion of late---the slatted green traffic light !!!----some have the slats horizontal-others vertical--and others where the holes just lined up at any angle it seems---but--they all achieve the objective-----you can't see the :mad: light !!!------so, why and what is the rationale--if any--for this new development----as I was always under the impression you were supposed to be able to see and be controlled by--the traffic lights.

eal401
1st Sep 2005, 12:24
Good question MikeJeff. Personally, I'd consider an exit to be an exit, so if you are going straight on, use the left lane.

Modern road designers are completely incompetent, or at least they are in Lancashire.

We have a 60mph limit single carriageway road increased to dual carriageway to encourage overtaking and the limit cut to 30mph! (that'll be a future speed camera site for certain! Speed cameras are there to keep people employed, not for road safety. Unless you are in one part of Scotland where a system is used and advertised to actually prevent speeding. A rare thing indeed)

Then there is a traffic light junction with two lanes going straight on that instantaneously merge back into one after the junction and prior to a bend.

Then there is the traffic calming chicane positioned just metres from a sharp bend.

Then there are the motorway junctions with very tight bends and slips roads with 100 yards to reach a suitable speed to join the main flow of traffic!

I could go on and on!

C130 Techie
1st Sep 2005, 12:59
On the subject of panic braking for speed cameras.

I'd like to thank all the morons who do that every Friday afternoon when I am driving home on the southbound A43. More often than not they end up blocking my option to pull out and overtake the slower traffic approaching in front of me.

Result - Me having to panic brake alongside the @rsehole in the right hand lane.

ALSO - BEING LOST IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR BAD DRIVING - PULL OVER AND LOOK AT THE MAP/ROADSIGNS:mad:

eal401
1st Sep 2005, 13:40
ALSO - BEING LOST IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR BAD DRIVING - PULL OVER AND LOOK AT THE MAP/ROADSIGNS
You assume there are road signs! I have lost count of the times where I have been travelling somewhere and have made the rash assumption that there will be adequate signage.

Sheffield City Centre is/was a good example, there are virtually no useful road signs of any form there.

Simon853
1st Sep 2005, 13:52
Have you ever noticed how your indicators insult you every time?

Have a listen next time, they go: "sphinc-ter, sphinc-ter, sphinc-ter"...

Si

Burnt Fishtrousers
1st Sep 2005, 14:09
Not so much Idiot motorists but idiot highways agency

Dont you just love it when having finished roadworks the Highways Agency leave 3 lanes of perfectly good motorway- albeit with some cones in the hard shoulder-, for weeks and weeks before they lift the speed restiction

Dont you just love it when driving thro 3 lanes as perfectly good motorway at 1 in the morning through a contraflow-when no work is going on - no one is on site- you have to potter along at 40....call me an old traditionalist but I thought speed limits in roadworks were to protect contractors on site. If they are not on site and are tucked up in bed...what is th epoint of having them

Why not have variable limits that are switched on and off as work dictates.

Dont you just love it when, having cleared the obstruction away , a week ago last Tuesday, someone at the highways agency ( or whoever) decides to turn off the ITT dot matrix sign , so we dont all start filtering and CAUSING A TRAFFIC JAM ...

My low opinion of the highways agency was reinforced recently when the dot matrix sign read TIT for 2 bloody days...very apt. The stupid TIT s had forgotten to change it

419
1st Sep 2005, 14:22
Here's a question for someone with a bit of legal knowledge.

I have often seen work being carried out on roundabouts that are traffic light controlled. When the works are in progress, there is usually a road sign "traffic lights not in use" with a picture of the lights with a cross through them, and the lights have been turned off.

Quite often, these signs are left in place long after the works have finished, and the lights are turned back on.
When approaching these lights, if there is a road sign telling you that they are not working, what is the legal position if you ignore the lights, and drive through on red? There is no way to tell if the lights are working in the correct sequence, or if they are showing the same colour at two or more places.

Devlin Carnet
1st Sep 2005, 15:40
Good point regarding temporary traffic lights 419.

Being that temporary lights are by their very name temporary and prone to being "fiddled with" by youthful, prying hands,
I always think about how long you should sit and wait at temp red lights, when there is no oncoming traffic, at some point you need to take it on yourself to go through, or potentially sit there all night.
Is it against the law to run a temp red light?

(They always change at the moment you run them anyway).

C130 Techie
1st Sep 2005, 15:59
Sorry my point was look at map/roadsigns as opposed to weaving from lane to lane, needlessly braking, driving at 5mph etc.

Agree road signs are often pants!!! However original point stands

Lance Murdoch
1st Sep 2005, 17:24
Im fairly certain that temporary traffic lights are not legally binding as such. I think they are advisory but if you had an accident because you didnt obey the signal then you would be in deep trouble (similar philosophy to controlled and advisory airspace I suppose). I have been known to go through red temporary traffic lights when there has obviously been no danger in doing so. Im sure someone on here can give a better explanation than I can.

My pet hates are bullying 4X4 drivers (I know that not all 4X4 drivers are like that Mr Chips if you read this!) and people who accelerate when you overtake them. There again Im not a perfect driver so I try to have some patience.

419
1st Sep 2005, 17:34
A slight case of crossed wires.

I wasn't taking about temporary traffic lights, but permanent ones that had been disabled whilst roadworks were being carried out, then when the works had finished, and the lights turned on again, the "lights not in use" signs not being removed.

This was leading to motorists not knowing if the lights were to be obeyed or not.
I've seen this twice in the past 6 weeks on the same stretch of roadworks.

Onan the Clumsy
1st Sep 2005, 17:55
Then there is the traffic calming chicane ...which simply encourages most drivers to speed up and pass through it as fast as possible.




(admit it chaps)

frostbite
1st Sep 2005, 18:12
"Im fairly certain that temporary traffic lights are not legally binding as such"

I wish.

Collected three points and a fine for going through a roadworks red at 2am with a clear view of no oncoming traffic.

patdavies
1st Sep 2005, 18:44
Temporary traffic lights that are simply an electrical version of the man with the stop/go board are usually advisory only. They have no more authority than members of the general public waving their arms about to direct traffic. Men operating stop/go boards have no lawful authority to direct traffic - they are a convenience. (however, if an accident ensues after having ignored one, you will have some explaining to do)

Traffic lights that are left unattended, willl normally be authorised by a TRO (traffic regulation order) and these have the same affect as permanent lights - ie to cross the red is illegal. If you believe that they have been tampered with, then the offical line is that you must retrace your steps and find another route (yeah right:rolleyes: )

If the lights out of order board have been left in place and you proceed against a red light, then technically you are committing an offence. You do however, have a cast iron defence that you were misled.

AFAIK, the signs showing that the lights are out of action are purely advisory unless reinforced by a TRO.

bjcc
1st Sep 2005, 21:35
419

The highway code says this about roundabouts.

"162: Signals and position, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise.

When taking the first exit
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking any intermediate exit
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout, signalling as necessary
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When taking the last exit or going full circle
signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it. "

So in simple terms, it depends! On road markings...Often the left lane approaching a roundabout will have a left arrow in it, indicating that you should only turn left from that lane.

HOWEVER...As I recall it is not compulsory. But you may find yourself being stopped for careless driving if you use that lane and then cause a vehicle in the right lane, intending to go straight on to break or collide with you.

In respect of your not in use sign for 'proper' traffic lights. The lights are normaly covered over if not in use. However, little chav's probably think it's a good idea to remove the covers, so I would suggest you stop at them if they are on red...if 10 minutes later they have not changed, then although it is your decision, I would proccede with a great deal of care. If stopped, and it transpires the lights were in use, then although you have committed the offence you have a great deal of mitigation.



patdavies

Your information is out of date in respect of Temp traffic lights. Yes you do have to stop.

See The 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

It gives temp traffic lights and traffic direction schemes equal status with normal traffic lights.

The sign board men you MAY still be right about. There used to be no requirement to stop, but if you didn't and were either seen by police or reported to police you could have been summonsed for without due car, or careless/reckless driving...(as the law was when I used it). So either way not a good idea!



Eal401

Have you considered that the brake lights were working and the driver slowed without needing to use the brake? It is the following drivers responsibility to enusre he keeps a distance in which he can stop between his vehicle and the vehicle in front. Even if his brake lights were not working, did he know that? Even new vehicles can have faults in the electrical system.

eal401
1st Sep 2005, 21:45
as opposed to weaving from lane to lane, needlessly braking, driving at 5mph
Fair point!!

On a slightly different subject, how many people have absolutely zero clue how to join a motorway?

Tootling along the inside lane on the M6 at 70mph recently, I was approaching the slip road at one junction. Lady in a 206 came down the slip road. I had a car overtaking me and a car overtaking them. Lady pulls onto the motorway just in front of me at 55mph. Sigh........

Moving from the inside lane at junctions is a courtesy, it is NOT a requirement.

Krystal n chips
1st Sep 2005, 23:24
eal401----simple solution here----read the body language of the driver approaching the M/way join on the slip road---99 / 100 have fixation and tunnel vision--look straight ahead, flip on the indicators--arrive on motorway---blissfullly unaware of the fact you will have been driving defensively--braked if required--and allowed the ( insert as req.here ) to drive on their way. Trust me, it works--it's part of my survival plan after all !.

fireflybob
2nd Sep 2005, 04:12
My pet hate is the way some drivers behave at pedestrian (zebra) crossings. The pedestrians have right of way when they are ON the crossing.

When it's busy in town and you are following a driver who stops at the crossing when pedestrians are still several yards away from the crossing (and yes I am talking about "able bodied" pedestrians, ie not children etc).

Also the pedestrians who look for eye contact from the driver before they cross which, in my case, I will not give them unless...well thats another story!

Oh yes the other thing I find irritating is those that flash the headlights when (one presumes) they are giving way to you - I believe the Highway Code says we should not flash lights for this purpose not make any assumptions when other motorists do so.

halo
2nd Sep 2005, 06:39
I knew when I started this it would turn out to be a worthwhile thread.

The problem with a lot of people is that they have forgotten common decency.... Not just when behind the wheel, but in general life as well.

diginagain
2nd Sep 2005, 07:19
I know it's unlikely that she'll read this forum, but I have never seen such idiotic motoring as that displayed last Sunday evening on the Newcastle - Edinburgh road by a young woman, with two loose children in the back.

Between Carter Bar and Jedburgh she managed to pass 6 cars by a combination of intimidation, stupidity and the good sense of the other motorists who managed to find room for her before she wiped out an oncoming car or two.

Clearly, solid white lines, cross-hatching at junctions, and plain common-sense have no meaning to her.

My passenger and I, along with the other drivers in our small packet, were mightily relieved to see her charging off into the distance, although the rest of the run was spent checking the roadside hedges for signs of her demise.

eal401
2nd Sep 2005, 07:45
The sad thing is diginagain, she'll probably end up hitting someone and then sueing them for what happened!!

I remember a similar situation on TV a while back, a mother with two children running free in the back. Police officer had stopped the car and asked "what do you think will happen if you stop suddenly?" Women shrugged, "they'll go forward."

Stupid slut. Both of them.

candoo
2nd Sep 2005, 09:18
Seen a great new police tactic recently on the M1, most recently yesterday.

Plod sit in outside lane at 70 mph precisely for miles on end and laugh mercilessly at the ensuing chaos behind whilst motorway miraculously opens up in front of them. I guess it must be a boring job.

diginagain
2nd Sep 2005, 09:56
Cheerio, I too use the A68 frequently, and you and I have clearly both experienced the same phenomena, yet passing opportunities do exist. This idiot tried to pass at the most preposterous places. On one attempt she shot down the line of cars which had slowed in front of her, only at the last second did she see the reason for the bunching - the front car was turning right into a driveway. Rather than wait for a considerate driver to let her back in line, she simply pulled in front of one bloke, who was clearly less than impressed.
I do take your point about drivers wanting to protect their position, it's down to human-nature again. Personally, if someone wants to make progress at a greater rate than I do, I'm happy to accomodate, I'd rather the inconsiderate driver was off into the sunset than scaring me by tail-gating.

MightyGem
2nd Sep 2005, 11:03
More to come
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this...fog lights!

Those morons who insist on driving around with their front fogs on all the time, plus those numpties who, at the slightest bit of rain or mist, put their rear ones on doing nothing but dazzling those behind.

Binoculars
2nd Sep 2005, 11:34
I had to drive an hour and a half north last week. I was a bit hungover, well ok, a lot. I was at the end of the open road stretch and was sitting in freely moving traffic on a dual carriageway, when I changed lanes. There was a horn blast which took a minute to pervade my deadened reflexes, then I looked into my rear vision mirror and was horrified to see a car behind me, a car which I had clearly almost hit on the lane change.

I was mortified, and did all I could, which was raise my hand to him and leave it raised for about three seconds trying to demonstrate how sorry I was for that appalling piece of driving. He seemed mollified, at least to the extent that he didn't follow me and perform violence upon my person.

Why do I raise this? Because in the never-ending threads about idiot drivers, I believe I am the first person ever to confess to having made a mistake.

Listen to yourselves, gentlemen (and I don't think any ladies have responded so far). It must be wonderful to be perfect. :rolleyes:

AUTOGLIDE
2nd Sep 2005, 12:35
Driving in the UK is frankly horrible. The combination of a population which seems to be increasingly aggressive and self-obsessed, mixed with an almost incredible lack of common sense and technical ability makes for difficult progress.
I agree with the earlier post that women now are now more (relatively) aggressive, those with the 'stare' who drive as if they expect everyone else to get out of the way really do think that, quite a disturbing state of mind.

eal401
2nd Sep 2005, 12:39
Listen to yourselves, gentlemen (and I don't think any ladies have responded so far). It must be wonderful to be perfect.
If you could point out where anyone has claimed to be? I don't seem to recall reading myself.

I believe I am the first person ever to confess to having made a mistake.
I think you mean "the first person to admit drink-driving."

C130 Techie
2nd Sep 2005, 12:44
Making a mistake is one thing. We all do it from time to time and can reasonably expect to be forgiven if we accept responsibility/apologise. This human attribute generally causes embarrassment, although it MAY also cause accidents.

Crass stupidity, lack of consideration for other road users, ignorance and sheer bloody mindedness are another matter entirely. These attributes ALWAYS cause accidents and cost lives:mad:

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Sep 2005, 13:09
Afcter what I saw yesterday, I think I can now say "I've seen it all".

Was driving to work and the traffic was bunching, I looked to my left and saw a young girl alone in a car who looked like she was vomiting...or at least having an epilectic seizure.

It turned out she was playing the harmonica!...with headphones on! :ooh:

:ugh:

Binoculars
2nd Sep 2005, 14:09
I was hoping my post would strike a sensitive chord with somebody, rather than the usual reaction of just being waved away like an irritating mosquito while everybody goes on with their incessant complaining about others, never thinking to look at themselves. I should have known it would be eal401, the chief whinger on traffic matters, who would rise to the bait first.

Listen closely, eal. What I said was not that anybody claimed to be perfect, just that nobody to my knowledge has ever in these repetitive threads admitted to making a mistake, at the same time having a litany of accusations to throw at everybody else on the road.

Drink driving? I didn't confess to that at all. I confessed to driving with a hangover; my blood alcohol level would have been legally permissible at 4pm. If you want me to confess that I drove while my physical powers were not at their sharpest, I'll concur.

Similarly, if you want me to say that I've never been guilty of drink driving, I won't do it. I am more than happy to confess that in youthful days past I have committed grievous acts of irresponsible driving, any one of which could have involved my death or that of others. Maturity means admitting it, coming to terms with it, and stopping it.

I could bore everybody stupid with my own wide-ranging views on what is really wrong with the traffic system, but I've been around long enough to know that when it comes to this subject, everybody has fully functioning transmitters, but receivers that hear other than their own frequency are thin on the ground.

eal401
2nd Sep 2005, 14:19
these repetitive threads
Would they be the ones you are always massaging your ego on?

Funny how those who whine about threads like these always post to them!

Just to extend the quote:

nobody to my knowledge has ever in these repetitive threads admitted to making a mistake

Why would they, that's not the subject of the thread is it?

I am not a perfect driver, and would never claim to be. Nobody is. I try my best to follow the law. But that is not the subject of the thread, it would be called "Mistakes I have made on the road." But it isn't.

Binoculars
2nd Sep 2005, 14:28
Oh dear, you are scraping the barrel, aren't you, eal?

Does being the one who admits to fault in himself constitute "massaging my ego"? If not, please give me an example of what does.

I didn't realise that every post to a thread had to agree with the initial tenet. That will make for some pretty boring threads methinks, but you carry on if you wish. I'll just continue pointing out where you are wrong; that should keep me fairly busy. (There, that should give you a head start on your search for ego massaging.)

By the way, I notice you, like your soulmate chaffers, like to characterise anybody who disagrees with you as "whining". Au contraire, mon ami, I post to them because the subject matter interests me. Do you have a particular problem with that?

Burnt Fishtrousers
2nd Sep 2005, 14:52
EAL 401

Moving from the inside lane at junctions is a courtesy, it is NOT a requirement.

Granted, but it would be nice in the situations where at all possible to actually move over. I'm not the worlds best driver but like to think I use common sense and it annoys me people pottering along at 50 finger up ar$e , mind in neutral oblivious to the 5 cars coming down the slip road.

All they need to do is keep an eye on that shiny reflecty thingy on their door and move over if possible. If not I can see you cant move over and can adjust my entry technique to suit( oo errr)

If I hit said person an accident would be MY FAULT but could be avoided by a little road craft from someone else exercising a little due diligence and caution

How many accidents could be avoided by people in the right who do nothing to address the situation and make no efforts to avoid the impending accident.

Its usually a case of ....I yes heres these cars coming down the slip road, and i'm only doing 50 but hey the law doesnt say ive got to move over...its clear to move over and i COULD exercise some road craft BUT IM IN THE RIGHT and i,m not going to ......im just going to potter along at 50 and see what happens...its my right of way .. I think there may be an accident as he cant see me as well as I can see him ...AND THERES ANOTHER JOKER TRYING TO OVERTAKE HIM ..but im going to plod on and see what happ...CURRRRUNCH!


I nearly ran over a cyclist a few years ago ........why?
Well having advertised the fact for a few minutes I was turning left via that amber flashy thingy on the corner of my car, a cyclist on one of those bloody stupid prone cycles decides, knowing full well im turning left to move off whilst I start executing my manoeuvre.result oneflattened front wheel and annoyed cyclist.

and yes I did check my wing mirror ...

I asked him why having seen my indicator and on such a stupid low visibility cycle he

a) decided to move off knowing i would have to turn across in front of him

b) did it not occur to him that riding such a stupid layed back prone cycle renders him impossible to see and that he should either adopt a more proactive approach to his cycling or get a proper bike.

The policeman seemed sympathetic to my reasoning and told the cyclist the same thing happened to a lorry and the cyclist didnt live to tell the tale because of their crass stupidity

Exhaust Manifold
2nd Sep 2005, 15:13
Well in sunny south africa we have taxi's riding around constantly on their hooter to try "attract" customers, with someone hanging out a passenger window screaming at all on the side of the road and directing the taxi driver who doesn't seem to have the sense to lookout before he goes in the direction the hangman is pointing him to.

Just something that really grates my carrot!! :p

AirScrew
2nd Sep 2005, 16:14
Working in Germany right now for a few years.

Germans do the 'ZIP' thing rather well. But thats only because they have no idea how to queue anyway.....:D

They also drive around at 240-250kph, and late-brake whenever there is slowing traffic...scares the hell out of me.
And when there is a shunt here, it is big and messy......20 or 30km jams are common.

But when the roads in Germany are working, they do work very well......

From a Brit Abroad.....
:D :D :D

Send Clowns
2nd Sep 2005, 16:41
Binos

eal has a good point - if you wish to hear about people's own mistakes, start your own thread. That is not the subject here, and there is a difference between making the occasional mistake and driving like an idiot. By the way you are certainly not the first to admit making a mistake, I have certainly seen such admissions on similar threads, and might even have made one myself.

diginagain gives the starkest example, although I would add a question as to why the traffic stopped for a car turning right. Was the trunk road really that narrow, or was the car turning also completely ignoring the highway code in the way that so irritates me, by not pulling towards the middle of the road when waiting to turn right? It happens often on roads perfectly wide enough for traffic to pass that car both ways. The other irritation is when the car does pull out to wait, but the driver behind no idea of the width of his or her car (usually a small car too) and waits, despite there being a gap sufficient for a bus.

I also consciously allow others to share the road with me, but that is because I am aware of what is happening around me, not just in a small space ahead. The real idiots are those that only know where they are going, ignoring all else. You see them, seats as far forward as they will go (should be impossible to go so far - should have adjustable pedals instead) and leaning in to the steering wheel, never looking to the side.

mocoman
2nd Sep 2005, 17:09
MightyGem mentioned the inappropriate use of fog lights. Apart from being an offence I believe to use them unless either the visibility drops to a low level (I forget the exact distance) or there is a high level of spray, their use when not required only serves to cause more congestion, especially on motorways or trunk roads, as other motorists are unsure as to whether what they are seeing up ahead is a fog light or a brake light.

The other related one is the required usage, or not as I see quite regularly, of DIPPED headlights when it is raining. I am astounded when I see morons on the motorway, piling along in the rain at 70-80 miles per hr with NO LIGHTS!!! Do they not realise how easy it is for an unlit car to remain unseen in the rain-sodden gloom. Again, I believe that this is an offence?

As for other posters reports of bizarre behaviour when driving (makeup, harmonica etc) I have seen more than one person reading a newspaper on the motorway with it resting on the steering wheel! I'm not talking about while stuck in traffic here, this is when doing 50 plus in heavy rush-hour traffic.

Also was told of a collegue a few years ago caught on the M4 on his way to work with a full english breakfast in his lap, merrily devouring his bacon etc. Happily this regular morning occurance came to an end when he was pulled over by plod and given a without-due-care-and-attention driving rap.

For my part I feel that driving standards are generally abysmal in the UK; my better-half is always moaning at them and insists that they should all be transported to Naples (Italy, not Fla.) and then made to drive home through Europe to teach them a lesson.

:ok:

BA-BEANCOUNTER
2nd Sep 2005, 19:44
This morning I had a bloke eating a slice of pizza at 6 am, whilst driving down the A40.
He also thought that one lane wasn't enough so decided to use both of them!
Wonder what he'd have wriiten on his insurance form if any of us had tried to overtake

DX Wombat
2nd Sep 2005, 22:12
One of my pet hates is the lorry driver on the motorway who decides that his lorry is going approximately 0.1mph faster than the one ahead so pulls out into the centre lane and takes the next five miles or so to creep past the other lorry. The result is two out of three lanes of traffic reduced to 54 (or is it 56?) mph and a long tailback with lunatics driving in the third lane at well over 70mph approximately two feet from the vehicle ahead of them.
Halo: a little fun for you Centre Lane Owner Drivers Society

hemac
2nd Sep 2005, 22:39
Early one morning a female driver attempted to overtake me on a dual carriageway, however due to the fact she was applying her make-up at the same time she started to vear across the road towards me. I was forced to take abrupt evasive action and was so startled that I dropped my electric razor into the bowl of Sugar Puffs I had on my lap.
Bloody women drivers hey!

H.

diginagain
3rd Sep 2005, 00:29
Send Clowns
Yes, the A68 at that point is rather narrow, and the driver turning right did his best to move as close to the crown of the road as he possibly could, as well as signalling his intentions as early as possible without misleading the drivers behind him. The woman in question made the attempted manouvre to overtake seven cars in a single pass, with an oncoming vehicle approaching from about half a mile away. Clearly, she'd got target-fixated.
What really annoyed me (and no doubt the other drivers) was her aggression and blatant disregard for road safety over the following 10 miles or so.

AUTOGLIDE
3rd Sep 2005, 11:42
This week's Auto Express has an article claiming UK drivers are the 2nd most aggressive in the world (after S.Africa). Surprised only second.

Curious Pax
3rd Sep 2005, 12:06
Auto Express want to try driving in The Netherlands! Mind you as any Dutchman will tell you, if you think they're bad try going to Belgium! Can't notice too much difference myself although the road quality is much poorer.

Having said that when I came here us northeners thought things were far worse than those from the SE of England.