Bell 427

[sprocket]

Does anyone know how many 427s have been delivered yet?

According to the Bell site, there should be some out and about by now but I have not heard or read any feedback about how they are performing etc except what Bell have stated about them.
Are they being used for any particular role?

I’m also interested in how the new PW207 engines perform as well as their maintainability.

I notice there is an info letter on the rotor blades contacting an aux. fin

http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/Storage/IL%20427-00-01.pdf

[widgeon]

According to the Transport Canada site 5 have been exported so far.
Last I heard the PHI machine is still in Arlington . Not sure why it isn't operating yet , no certified floats maybe.

[407 Driver]

I hope the 427 doesn't have the same T/R and Tail Boom problems associated with the 407.

[sprocket]

widgeon: Thanks for that info. I tried the Transport Canada site but cannot find the page.


407 Driver: Has the 427 been derived from the 407 design? After reading the Just Helicopters forum, I would hope not! It seems the 427 only has a problem with the main rotor and the larger type Aux. Fin. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif (Ref IL 427-00-01)

With the 407 that had ‘an uncommanded left pedal hardover’, (early 1999)??? AD CF-98-36R3 dated:Mar 5, 1999 and also Ref: Emerg. AD 2001-01-52 dated: Jan 10, 2001; did investigators find the cause of the hardover?
This apparently happened just before the T/R struck the tail boom.

[widgeon]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/general/ccarcs/exports/ex1100e.htm


Just change the month in the last part to view other months.
Interesting the s/n of the last one exported was 56021 , means there must be 16 or so gathering dust somewhere.

[widgeon]

Any one know what is new with the program?, as far as I can see http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/general/ccarcs/exports/ex0601e.htm s/n up to 28 have been exported from Canada as of June. I saw an article that one had been sold ( delivered ?) to a customer in South America . There was also talk of orders from Korea . The TC data sheet ( R00001RC)was approved in November 2000 are there any US orders.

[Pac Rotors]

On a recent visit to ACRO I saw that they had two in the hangar that they were fitting out for a Jap customer. They had already shipped two there and were from what I understand being operated already. I have tried to get info from Bell but as normal, no response.

[widgeon]

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/AircraftJ/01Jun_e.htm

Thanks Mr Pac rotors , above link is Japanese register changes by month , 56020 ,reg JA009W , registered to Mitsui Bussan.

I am suprised Bell do not give more publicity on their sales . From all reports I have read it is a capable machine with very competitive DOC's.

[Autorotate]

Has anyone heard where the numerous Bell 427s are that are out there somewhere. Heard there are a couple in the Philippines and one in Bahrain but thats all so far.

[widgeon]

2 on japan registry , I have seen pictures of a UK reg one , maybe just a demo . Most on US register all registered to Bell.

[ppheli]

There are no 427s in the UK and there has never been one on the UK register. The UK has seen demo 427s in the country for Farnborough 2000 and Helitech 2001 only.

[CTD]

427s are currently operating in China, Bahrain, Canada, US, Taiwan, The Philippines, Brazil, Japan, Israel, Greece, Denmark.

[Autorotate]

CTD

If that is BV drop me an email. ;)

[ppheli]

Wow, if 427s are operating in that many countries, then wouldn't you expect Bell to be shouting about it with a press release? :confused:

Perhaps some of those are demo aircraft??

[Autorotate]

None of them are demo aircraft. Bahrain Police have theirs working hard and I know the ones in Manilla are working hard as well. Not sure about the others.

[CTD]

Correct, the demonstrators are extra to what I posted.

[Hippolite]

Rumor has it that Bell will show a "stretched" version of its slow selling 427 twin at the 2004 Heli Expo in Las Vegas.

A fuselage plug has been put in behind the cockpit giving more room in the cabin and the change to an all forward facing seating arrangement.

The 427 has been a slow seller in the Gulf of Mexico, the most likely offshore market, with no operators currently signing up for the aircraft. While there was a 427 in PHI colors at the show 3 or 4 years ago, the company never took delivery of the aircraft since no flotation system had been certified.

Other light twins, like the EC135 and MD902 have also failed to penetrate the GOM market and Bell believes that this still gives them the potential of a market share when the GOM operators start to look for light twin helicopters.

HH:cool:

[The Nr Fairy]

What are they going to call a stretched 427 ? The Long27 ? 430 ?

And if it's only a JetRanger but bigger, will it be suitable for low time pilots in a SPIFR role ? :D

[HeloEagle]

I also believe that one reason that they are doing the extension is for EMS. Currently the aircraft cabin is too short to accomadate a litter. It will also be interesting to see what else they have to do as it uses the same basic dynamic rotor components of the 407 but because of the higher weight of the additional engine has a higher disk loading which has hurt performance. I also understand that since it has only one hydralic system that it can not be certified for SPIFR, only dual pilot. It is a good looking ship, so hopefully they can get things straightened out.

[rotorrookie]

Just check out this link here, I did post this pic last year under the topic "now the s-92 have a serious competitor" who would have thought they would take it so seriously

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/longlongrangerSM.jpg

I feel they should hire me for this project :}

[Head Turner]

Rotorrokkie I think your idea is great. BELL needs someone up there to sort them out. But why stretch a 427? Why not look to the 430 on skids and rethinking all that heavy internal stuff. Upgrading the avionics, throwing out the very heavy seats and internal fittings, using carbon composites where possible and then you'd have a really nice ship with range and a good payload.

We liked the 430 on skids but didn't buy one because it's too damm heavy to start with

[ppheli]

Oddly, the original 427 development aircraft came to the UK for recreating into the stretched mockup for HAI. A contact of mine tracked it through LHR airfrieght on 7th December, with the paperwork showing Lutterworth nr Leicester as the destination - and it left LHR by road on 8th. Who is there that would do this work?

But it still raises questions to me, because of the cost of airfreight two ways and the fact that UK is very expensive to US companies at the moment.

Nr Fairy > The name "Bell 427XP" was also quoted on the paperwork, although the aircraft itself still carried the standard "Bell 427" name.

[Ascend Charlie]

Can anyone explain the Bell numbering system?

Sure, the Model 30 and 47 may have just been the sequence of drawings on pieces of paper, but how did the rest of them evolve?

204 - B model Iroquois. 2 blades, turbine model number 4
205 - d, h models and the civvy version, progressing by one
206 - well, at least the number follows, but the machine is much smaller
212 - maybe 2 blades, 2 engines?
412 - ah hah! Logic! 4 blades, 2 engines
214 - ooops... lost it again. Maybe 2 blades, 1 engine, 4 dozen of them sold to the Shah of Iran.
407 - 4 blades, and 1 model later than a 206?
427 - 4 blades, 2 engines, 7 pob ?
690 - oh, boy - 6 blades - YES! 9 passengers? - maybe.. 0 hope? definitely.:bored:

[407 Driver]

There are a few more models hidden in the works...

Bell 207 Kiowa Warrior
Bell 209 Cobra series
Bell 406 Kiowa Scout

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Let us not forget:

Model 61: Bell's proposed tandem rotor anti-submarine helicopter (1953).

Model 201: An experimental Army H-13 with a Continental XT51 turbine engine (merely a license-built Turbomeca Artouste) in 1955.

Model 533: Modified model 204 with wings, two Continental J-69 engines on either side of the fuselage, and a variable-tilt rotor mast! (1962)

Model 207: This lookalike predecessor of the AH-1 series was actually based on the model 47/H-13 powertrain and airframe (1963)

Model 309: KingCobra (1971).

Model 409: The 409/YAH-63 was Bell's competitive entry to the AAH (Advanced Attack Helicopter) competition won by the Hughes AH-64 Apache.

Model 222: Two-blade, twin-engine, civilian (no military counterpart) executive transport (1974).

Model 230: Basically a 222 with Allison C-30's instead of the awful Lycoming LTS-101's. (1991)

Model 430: Longer cabin, four-blade version of the 230 and specifically designed for shipboard operations by a single, very low-time pilot. (1994)

Model 406: Basically a 206B (short) airframe with a four-blade rotor. More popularly known as the OH-58D. (1983)

Model 400 Twin Ranger: Fugly-looking four-blade 206L (narrow-cabin) with a ring tail back end and two Allison C-20R's. (1983)

And those were just some of the ones that they actually built.

[overpitched]

I thought the 47 had something to do with the year it was originally produced

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Overpitched:I thought the 47 had something to do with the year it was originally produced.Many people assume so. And we have to ask: Did Larry Bell "jump" from the Model 30 to the Model 47 to coincide with his intended year of certification (like Sikorsky did later with the S-76)? It's possible.

History does record that Bell was messing around with the Model 30 as early as 1943. The Model 30 was readied for "mass production" as the Model 47, and the first "Bell 47" flew in December of 1945. Production actually began in 1946, and of course the first commercial helicopter type certificate was issued to the 47 on March 8, 1946. So were there actually 16 different experimental models between the Model 30 and Model 47? It would appear not!

It must have been an incredible, hectic time at the Bell factory in the years immediately following WWII. Because also in 1946, Bell wanted to produce a larger version of the Model 47. They called it the Model 42. You can look at a picture and read about it here:
http://avia.russian.ee/~star/vertigo/bell_42-r.html

Five seats and a Wright R-985 radial behind the back seats? And you thought a 47 was noisy! And how 'bout that very R-44ish profile, eh? And three-blade tail rotor?? Without a civilian market, Bell must've said, "Hey, let's put a P&W 1340 in it and see if we can sell the damn thing to the Air Force!" The Model 42 then morphed into the Model 48/XR-12, also in 1946.

As the five-seat original Model 42/48 was not successful either for the civilian or military markets, it was apparently the Air Force that spurred the development of the Model 48A, a larger version designed to carry up to 10 people. And if you look closely at both the Model 42/48 and the Model 48A, you can clearly see the basis for what would later become the Model 204/YH-40/HU-1.

Man, I would've loved to have been around Bell in 1945. I guess I was just born too late :( What were those times like, Lu?

[Shawn Coyle]

Having done some of the certification flying on the 427, I can say with some assurance that the single engine performance of the machine was pretty amazing. The single hydraulic system was a bit of disappointment, although Bell's VFR fix made it easier than a Bell 206 to land hydraulics off - it was not suitable for IFR.
Stretching it will help for the EMS market, but Bell needs to do something to make it a total package - single pilot IFR, Category A out of the box as standard would help. Needs an AFCS for IFR.
Digital fuel controls were excellent.
And the pre-start checks need to be made automatic- it's not as slick as the EC-135 to get going. Still stuck in the mid-60's in terms of cockpit interface. And a bit more legroom in the cockpit, please.
Hope they get it right this time.

[TIMTS]

A company down here is considering buying a 427 for Charter and EMS work.
Any thoughts about this machine? Good or bad?

[B Sousa]

TIMTS
Your still trying to get away from that Robbie............Ha Ha
Sure the 427 is a good aircraft, also good because your at Sea Level.
Hill Construction has one in San Juan, Puerto Rico, Talk to their Pilot Bill Duncan. http://www.hillconstruction.com/default.asp
Being your in St Martin, I assume the need for a twin is Night etc. Have you considered the EC-135??

[docstone]

Follks - interested to get views/experiences/thoughts on ownership, flying and maintenance please

[Duck Dogers]

We operate 8 of these fine little workhorses and while a bit feisty to handle they are a very capable and robust machine.
Very simple (for a twin) to operate. Fantastic P&W engines that give it OEI capability that has to be seen to be believed!!:ooh:
You'll love the IIDS display. Very easy to read.
The only ongoing problems are moisture in a connection causing false caution messages and gen brushes wearing quickly.
Bell are working on both issues. In fact I think the gen problem has been solved.
We had 1 blade with a delamination issue.
Make sure you install the 28 amp battery.
Ventilation in the rear cabin could be better.
DD

[Duck Dogers]

And of course I forgot to mention the idle stop solenoids.
At USD5,000 each. :{

DD

[docstone]

Thanks DD, much appreciated

[CYCLONE 7]

The B427 is a good Sea level ship and does not give much trouble at all mechanically.
It has a few bugs with the triple switch and electrics in wet weather.
Our machines are flying an average of four hours a day without hassles
:D

[Bry78]

I read that there's a company in the Czech Republic using them for medevac.
Anyone know how they're holding up in this type of operation?
Also, does anyone have much info on the company in the Czrch Republic? I can't remember the name.

[More Payload]

The company is called Alfa Helicopter.

http://www.alfahelicopter.cz


http://www.alfahelicopter.cz/images/foto/foto10-big.jpg


http://www.alfahelicopter.cz/images/foto/foto11-big.jpg

[Aser]

And one of the pilots is a ppruner...

[Bravo73]

And one of the pilots is a ppruner...

FYI, the guy is BigMike (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=70448).

Although I've got a feeling that he is now an Alfa 'ex'-pilot.


HTH

[BigMike]

He is... great bunch of people to work for, and a very nice helicopter to fly, with only a few little glitchs as mentioned. Works well as an EMS machine with its size and speed great for first response EMS. The company has 4 429's on order.

Current ride...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/search-mr.jpg


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/Watershed-pb.jpg

[jupiterus]

I flew the 427 in 2002 for VIP , i have about 80 hours , i am not sure it perform good , it does have same problem as 407 with Pedal stop
also a lot Avionics problems
cheers

[CGWRA]

Why did bell develop the 429? what was wrong with the 427? looking on wikipedia it looks like the 427 has a higher usefull load. Imho the 427 looks quite a bit better too.

[Shawn Coyle]

What was wrong with the 427 compared to the 429?
Single hydraulic system, no stabilization or autopilot, not nearly as much room as the 429, lower Vne and cruise speed.
And I'm sure there are more reasons.

[vfr440]

Spot on Shawn. I had a peripheral input, and aside from your observations, it would have been too expensive and heavy to incorporate all the discrete requirements for Cat A systems separation, never mind overcoming all the other limitations. What it HAS done, though, is to act as a proving ground for the 429's dynamics, and to highlight areas for improvement elsewhere; fuselage,cabin, eqpt config, maintenance access, system reliability etc. Pity they do not (yet) have a wheeled version available for the corporate market - A109E may have eaten their lunch on that one:( ~ vfr

[Avnx EO]

it would have been too expensive and heavy to incorporate all the discrete requirements for Cat A systems separation,
Actually, the 427 is CAT-A certified by TCCA and EASA (VFR). It was not the CAT-A system separation that was the issue with the 427. It was the number of systems that had to be re-designed for IFR (electrical, hydraulic, etc.) and a cabin that would never make it for EMS. The 427 has its fuel tanks fore and aft of the passenger cabin. Bell presented a 427-derivative mock up at Heli-expo 2004 (called the 427s3i), and the cabin was a non-starter. There's no place to go if you want dual stretchers and enough room for an attendant to intubate a patient at the head of the stretcher. The aft fuel tank ended up being this "U" shapped thing to fit the stretcher with no access to the patients legs. With the 429, they basically started with a cabin designed for the EMS mission and built the aircraft around it. They kept the cockpit and most of the systems from the 427s3i concept.

[BigMike]

"and a cabin that would never make it for EMS" ... really ;)

Alfa Helicopter - about us (http://www.alfahelicopter.cz/en/about.htm)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/Christmasmorning2005CzechRepublic.jpg

Fairly easy loading with the turn-table, and complete access to the patient by 2 medical crew.

[ricksheli]

Hi Big Mike

Any chance of a couple more photo's showing the stretcher configuration, looks like you need a "turn table" type base, has this got an STC for 427?

Thanks

[BigMike]

'ricksheli' will try and dig out a few more.
EMS fit-out done by Alfa themselves. Can be reconfirgured to Charter ops in about an hour, by 3 engineers. Very good setup.

[ricksheli]

Thanks BigMike,

Presently we have A119 with factory fit EMS, but looks like single engine won't be approved into Hospital helipads from now on, so the search is on to replace with economic twin

Thanks for help

[BigMike]

Here are a few of the EMS interior by Alfa.

The 427 performs pretty well in this role. Fairly quick (120kts everywhere) and nice and responsive to fly. Easy to land in tight side streets etc. I enjoyed flying it.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/IMG_0287.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/IMG_1197.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/IMG_1198.jpg

[alouette]

The fun starts if an HLO comes running and wants to load 6 passengers, but you tell him you can only take 3. "Captain you have six seats"!!!! My answer "Yes, but it's only a 3 passenger day":E

[ricksheli]

Thanks Big Mike, as they say a picture paints a thousand words - looks very usable

[SuperF]

Hi Mike, are Alfa still running the 206LT? how did they go?

[BigMike]

As far as I know they still operate them. They used to have one on the Slovakian contract, with another as back-up. The pilots hated it (Too heavy) as they had L-4's before the 'Twin' requirement, which they liked.

http://www.alfahelicopter.cz/images/technika/Bell206L4T.jpg

[bellfest]

Any 427 drivers/operators out there like to share any opinions on the machine?? Overall performance, reliability, single engine performance, operating costs etc?

Any info would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks in advance.:ok:

[That lights normal!]

Are there any being operated in Australia currently?
Any idea of support in Oz?

There was a B427i rumoured
Were there any ever certified SPIFR?
Any fitted with AFCS?

Bell are still offering new ones for sale. Apart from extreme difficulty in ever selling, any obvious pitfalls?

Comparison with A109E?

Thanks very much for any info.
TLN

[Ian Corrigible]

Are there any being operated in Australia currently?
Not aware of any in Oz, but there's at least one in NZ (http://www.inflitecharters.com/helicopters)

There was a B427i rumoured
Now the Bell 429 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/190640-bell-429-a.html)

Were there any ever certified SPIFR?
Don't believe so

Bell are still offering new ones for sale.
The last few white tails, offered at steep discount (sub-407)

Apart from extreme difficulty in ever selling, any obvious pitfalls?
Just the question of future support for such a small fleet (~80).

I/C

[That lights normal!]

Thanks Ian

[blackdog7]

Bell 427 - the good, bad and ugly...

Good
Quick
Smooth
Reliable day to day
Good single engine performance
P & W engines


Bad
Unless you're Alfa, very difficult/impossible to use for medevac missions
Major parts are becoming difficult to obtain without big delays
Limited space for avionics
Poor visibility
Bell support on this product is dismal (maybe better if you buy one of the 3 new airframes still available)
Ceiling limitations
No flat floor
A face only a mother could love...

Ugly
Mast issues
Hull value is in freefall and concerns about residual value going forward.
Tech support and Parts support

BD

[heli-ho]

There is 1 429 and 2 427's in NZ.

[heli1]

Heli-Ho......There is 1 429 and 2 427 in NZ ?....... Suckers!

[enthusiast 2012]

Other than the 407 and 427 what economical heli would be recommended for geo survey/transport work over central/southern Africa?

[Ian Corrigible]

Bell 427 GlobalRanger
I think you've been had, Sav! ;)

I/C

[Savoia]

Ian I'm sorry you were saying ??

http://www.webstorehouse.com/photobucket/smileys/LOL-small.gif

Ah well .. I put it down to a lazy Sunday .. and something called ENID! (See post #4 on this (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/497540-helicopter-safety-statistics.html) thread).

[skippers]

Hello all.
Bringing up an old thread, does anyone have any experience on how the 427 performs landing at altitudes around the 6500-8000 foot range?
Any info would be appreciated.
Cheers