Air Transat

[Traffic]

Capt "how's your father" is probably very relieved that Sep 11 came around.

This has all gone very quiet. What was the roundup on the biggest fuel dump and tire fire in the Atlantic this year???

[Scud Runner]

Sept. 11th may have diverted the attention of the Canadian media, but that's all. Their bookings had taken a nosedive after the glider accident, so the latest downturn in travel won't help. When dealing with their travel agents, Canadian holiday makers are asking to book a flight with "anybody but Air Transat". The travelling public has a much longer memory.

When the official Portugese accident report comes out, Transat won't be able to run to their friends in the Quebec government to force the Feds to sweep it under a rug. The whole outfit will be severely criticised in the report, and the Captain will probably have his license removed after it goes public. The company will finally be exposed for its' constant promotion of a "just get the planes in the air" attitude amongst their staff.

[Willie Everlearn]

Scud Runner...
you sound suspiciously from the C3 mold (mould, I should say!)
If you are...
a certain 75 colleague of yours might enlighten you as to a 'fuel management'problem he encountered a few years back.

In any event, if you are C3, then I'd remind you of the fact they are presently on the abyss themselves. n'est pas?

Both C3 and Transat are fine companies. What the A330 guys did in August may have been totally f**ked up...but, it does not negate the fact that, despite that fine line between hero and bum, they did an incredible job!!!

There but for the grace of gawd go you and I.
Right? :rolleyes:

[Midnight Blue]

Hi Scud Runner, since you suggest, it was pilot error, could you enlighten me and give me some more information, what really happened?
My latest information said something about a computer related problem, but I have to admit, this info is very old, so in fact I don´t know very much about the A330 incident.

[Kubota]

Willie, you're right, I think most have completely forgotten about the '57 that landed in Tenerife with 600 kg's of fuel remaining.

The difference between AT and C3 is that the driver in the C3 machine lacked the skill to pull off what the man in the AT machine did...

[Scud Runner]

After some sober second thought, this posting has been toned down. My apologies to those I may have offended first time around.

Sorry to burst your bubble Willie, but I don't work for C3, not that it should matter. I know that AT and C3 have had a long standing turf war with one another, but I'm not a part of it. I have no knowledge of the C3 incident you mentioned, so I can't comment. I also don't think C3's present financial situation has anything to do with this thread.

MB, the Air Transat aircraft had a serious fuel leak due to incorrect maintenance, this fact was made public within a couple of days of the accident. However, there was no computer related problem. The investigation will reveal that there were ample indications of a fuel leak well in advance of the fuel starvation occuring. The computer was telling the crew exactly what it should have, that there was a significnat difference in the rate at which the fuel was leaving the right tanks versus the left. Shutting down the engine on the leaking side would have easily provided a sufficient fuel load to make a single engine diversion. Let's not lose sight of the fact that they should have had some 12 tonnes of fuel on board when the second engine quit. Where did it all go? It was given away by misunderstanding and mismanagement of the fuel system.

As for the Captain and F/O having shown superior skills, this may be true as far as how they handled a 160 tonne glider. This cannot make up for the fact that their mismanagement of the fuel leak put them there in the first place.

I'm not blind to the fact that the crew was handed a crappy situation by some crappy maintenance practices. This type of thing has happened before though. We get paid to take the machine and get it there safely and like it or not, when it gets bent at the other end, we almost always end up taking a significant part of the blame. Therefore it is incumbent on us to always, always, always keep our wits about us and understand our machinery.

As for Air Transat's political culture, they are the only airline to successfully have TC inspectors from offices outside Montreal banned from doing in-flight monitoring inspections of their operations. No other company in Canada would even think of asking for such a thing, but AT did it willingly. The fact that they were handed a $250,000 fine, even before the brakes had cooled and the investgation started, is an indication that the Minister felt an urgent need to be seen as doing something about Air Transat.

As always, IMHO.

Scud

[ 22 October 2001: Message edited by: Scud Runner ]

[AIRLIFT]

Well scud, you have a few facts correct, but however you are still making an early jugment on the entire situation. It's true there were probably errors made up there but untill we are given the entire facts, we can't draw conclusions. As for the loads droping becaus of that incidents, I don't know where you got that, But I was told a complet different story. They droped about 5% folowing the august incident and then they took a big dip after the september incident. But then again so did everybody elses.... ;)

AL

[Willie Everlearn]

Scud,
...my apology to you for certain 'assumptions' on my part. It sometimes helps to know where yer comin' from. Since you're not with C3 I'd suggest you have more credibility than I originally thought.
To actually know for certain what happened to TS on that fateful day is mostly speculation because the CTSB haven't really put much out there for public consumption. :rollseyes:
I believe, from the things I've read, TS maintenance replaced a Hydraulic Pump on the affected engine which did not comply with a Rolls Royce AD. It wasn't the correct size, I believe. This was signed off and the a/c placed back into service. The Hyd Pump then caused chaffing to a fuel line and over the course of several days lead to the fuel line rupture which caused the fuel leak.
It would appear as though whatever ECAM actions were taken, 'somehow', 'somehow' the fuel crossfeed configuration 'might' have gotten AFU. This lead to the serious loss of fuel the a/c then sustained as a result of the misconfig of the fuel panel. So, I agree...the crew will wear it.
Suggestion:
if the F/O was carrying out ECAM actions and Checklist procedures, how closely MAY the Capt have been 'listening' and 'watching'? Backing up? CRM? Situational awareness? SOPs? Green DOT??? Drop the ball. Chain of events. Oops.
You know the scenario. We all do.
The Board is still out on this one.
Conversations with travel agents lead me to believe CM and TS aren't suffering too badly with load factors and rez up from last year despite 9/11. Who actually turns up with a purchased ticket may be an entirely different matter. We'll see.
The bottom line is...the Canadian Airline industry is in the toilet. We are weeks away from someone going bust. That's for sure and certain. My guess is C3. If they make it to Christmas, I'm guessing Air Canada by Christmas. :(

Kubota...
We may not be thinking of the same incident partner, but it all amounts to the same thing. Gawd help us if they've had more than two fuel incidents like that. But, never two without three. :rolleyes:

[Squawk 8888]

You're probably right Willie, C3 has a bigger fleet, no unencumbered assets and less than half the cash that AT has. It's a shame, because C3 has consistently offered far superior service- friendly staff, good on-time performance, reasonable fares. My own experience with AT has been unspeakably rude CC, filthy cabins and departure listings that are pure fiction. I'm terrified of what will happen if they end up with a monopoly on low-fare travel.

[Rockhound]

Willie E,
Do you seriously believe Air Canada will be belly-up by Xmas? Hey, this is Canada, with a Liberal government in power. They'll never let the national airline go under. :rolleyes: :eek: :p
Rockhound

[Willie Everlearn]

Squawk and Rockhound...

C3 definately superior to TS! Bunch of nice people working there, not all, but most. Unfortunate thing is...most think AK is a god. While he's probably the smartest in the game in the Great White North...assets count for a lot when crunch time comes. Crunch time is here! Let's cross our fingers for them.

Air Canada will never 'go out of business'. Remember that phrase for future reference. Air Canada is a private company. It would take the 'snap of the fingers' for Prime Minister Dolittle to make it a Crown Corporation. My earlier reference is more that AC will likely run aground early in the new year. Panic in the Canadian Airline industry will ensue and West Jet's profits will reach new heights. It's not that AC isn't a fine airline...it's more that customer hostility is at, unfortunately, a very high and dangerous level. If you pissemoff much more...what's the end result? Add to this, recent events. AC is losing incredible amounts of $$$ (in all likelihood, even though I would emphasize, I wouldn't know the figure). They simply MUST get Tango off the ground. The reason Tango isn't going to 'set the domestic market on fire' is the fact that ACPA crews and 'guess who' in the back aren't going to be able to give AC the cost basis it would prefer to operate at. Better option to the mainline, but, still falls short.
Remember, most management think we're 'overpaid'. Simply because it's about the only item in an aircraft's DOC that they can touch.
No. I see the Canadian version of Chapter 11 coming up for Big Red (Green). But, that's only my opinion. :( :confused: ;)

[Willie Everlearn]

Sorry gentlemen,
I don't mean to get off topic. ;)

[Tan]

Willie Everlearn

I think how AC is going to survive is a very interesting topic. Without going into the details of the shotgun political marriage that took place, AC finds itself caught between a rock and a hard place. Their unions, with the blessing of the current government, are determined to have it their own way, even if it means putting AC out of business. Hey the stock market has it figured out, to bad the unions haven’t.

I remember well, how defiant the Pam Am unions were prior to putting PA out of business. The AC unions need to get out and smell the coffee before their ship slips beneath the waves…

Before you union zealots start sending rockets my way, I am and have been a card carrying union pilot for over 30 years. So give it a rest. I’ve been there, done that.

[Dockjock]

Tried discussing this topic on CanadianAviation.com, but it fizzled out just as we were getting into it.

In my estimation, a true low cost airline is build on 4 pillars:
1. Old equipment
2. Low salaries, made up for partially by
3. Good morale and corporate climate(and profit sharing), allowing the company to operate in
4. The absence of huge, powerful unions

TANGO is:
1. new aircraft
2. only ~10% pay decrease from mainline AC
3. same corporate antagonistic climate as AC
4. ACPA

As someone else said, the mere absence of free coffee and newspapers does not a low cost carrier make! As much as it hurts, AC needs the ability to lay off staff. No layoffs is what killed CAI over the course of 2 decades and it will be the same this time around. Short term pain for long term gain.

[Squawk 8888]

No layoffs is what killed CAI over the course of 2 decades and it will be the same this time around.Definitely a contributing factor but not the only one. Let's not forget that when AC was owned by Big Brother it got preferential treatment from the regulators; at one time CP was restricted to just one transcontinental flight per day. Through in the sweet kissoff when they privatized (shareholders got the assets, taxpayers got the old debt), and CP would have failed even if they had competent managers. CP wasn't blameless either- financing the Wardair takeover with a sale-leaseback of the fleet, failure to take advantage of the transborder boom, failure to acquire RJs (probably due to the lack of cash thanks to the Wardair deal), paying too much for the new terminal at YYZ. In short, the government's gift to AC and moronic managers at CP combined to make CP completely insolvent.

[gumbi]

It's very nice to see that most of you know more than me about what's going on in the company I fly for...

As for what happened in the Açores, I guess some of you might want to wait before publicly accusing the crew, or is it that you know ALL the facts already?
:mad: :rolleyes: :)

[Scud Runner]

Maybe you should ask the folks from within the investigation who have put out certain pertinent facts to managers of other airlines in advance of a formal report. The reason they've done this? It's because operators of A330s and A340s went to them seeking information and assurances that they weren't operating a dangerous aircraft!

[gumbi]

Fair enough so far, but I'll be waiting for the report myself since we (AT pilots) have someone on the investigation team as well...

But it surely doesn't give you the right to go about on a forum, bashing a company that you know little of (or C3 for that matter).

I fly with many guys who were quick to judge AT before they finally decided to come over and see for themselves. Maybe you should too and form your OWN opinion...