View Full Version : Katrina /Rita - USA Hurricanes (merged yet again!)

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27th Aug 2005, 17:02
At the present time, the National Hurricane Center has posted a 19% probability that Katrina will hit New Orleans Monday with as much as Category 5 strength.

Drowning New Orleans (http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?ITEMIDCHAR=D58B96E1-60BC-4C0F-BCE2-8C9B8A05275&methodnameCHAR=&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=1353CDCA-AF4D-4B1D-85F4-5B68F2A7E17&ArticleTypeSubInclude_BIT=0&sequencenameCHAR=itemP)
Drowning Cities (http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218391951)

While US policies towards global warning may change afterwards, now is the time for anybody there to get out while you can:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

27th Aug 2005, 19:26
Actually it is now looking that New Orleans is going to take a direct hit. As New Orleans is under sea level this could be very, very serious.

If Katrina becomes a category 4 hurricane New Orleans may become uninhabitable for months. Let’s hope that this forecast of doom and gloom for New Orleans is just over reaction.

I love New Orleans and will really be sad if it is nearly destroyed by this hurricane.

Also, there is no reason for the United States to change our stance on ‘global warming’. ‘Global warming’ is natural recurrence that the earth goes through and there is little or nothing that mankind can do to affect or change this natural occurrence.

27th Aug 2005, 20:02
...................How are you so sure con-pilot?

Did you hear about glas-house effect and the influence of mankind burning fossile energy with growing magnitude since 19th century?

No effect ?

27th Aug 2005, 20:29

That's not what your President thinks

Speaking to British broadcaster ITV, he said he would instead be talking to fellow leaders about new technologies as a way of tackling global warming. But he conceded that the issue was one "we've got to deal with" and said human activity was "to some extent" to blame.

27th Aug 2005, 21:02
Yeah right, I guess there were no hurricanes before the 19th century.:rolleyes:

Wow! I disagree with President Bush. Yup, I sure do on this issue. I suppose that the Thames River has never frozen over from London into the North Sea either.

If you do really believe that mankind can really affect the world climates as much as you seem to, you need to be going after China and India. Remember cars sold in Europe cannot be sold in the United States because they cannot meet the pollution standards of the United States.

Now back to the thread. New Orleans is now being evacuated. In one hour from now, 4pm (16:00 CDT) all interstate highways will be changed to all lanes out of the city. Things are not looking good at all. The Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor Louisiana have call for mandatory evacuation of all low laying areas in South Eastern Louisiana including major areas of New Orleans.

Katrina is expected to make landfall early Monday morning coinciding with the high tide.

If you think oil prices are high now just wait to see what will happen if the refiners on the Gulf Coast are damaged or destroyed by this hurricane. Currently nearly all of the off shore oil rigs from Houston to Florida are being shut down and all personnel are being evacuated to the mainland. This alone will cause another spike in oil and natural gas prices.

27th Aug 2005, 21:15
Why China or India?

"The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people "

The U.S. 4.6% of the worlds population, 24% of world CO2 output
China 21% of the worlds population, 13% of world CO2 output

CO2 emmissions (http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html)

27th Aug 2005, 21:22
Well, it probably all evens up in the end then - doesn't it??

Sorry to be flippant - I'll just get my feather boa and go shall I? :uhoh:

27th Aug 2005, 21:29
Yeah that’s a real un-biased web site. Those stats may have been correct years ago, but not now. When was the last time you were in China, have you ever been to China 419? I’ll give you India.

Again, global warming is a natural occurrence. Just like the ozone hole over the Antarctic. When was the ozone hole discovered? When NASA put up a satellite that could detect the blasted thing. In other words the hole was there before the satellite found it, not the other way around.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be New Orleans and hurricane Katrina.

27th Aug 2005, 21:39
I can't trade pollution statistics at a time when thousands of people and their families/pets are facing the total destruction of their property, their livelihoods and their way of life. I have yet to visit New Orleans but have only ever heard great things about it (from a tourist perspective of course) :ok:

For what its worth, my thoughts and prayers are with those facing Katrina. :(

27th Aug 2005, 21:48
Appreciate the caring sentiments, but New Orleans has been through some big hurricanes and she'll be there after this one.

If it weren't for hurricanes there wouldn't be a Pat O'Brien's.

I sat through Katrina stuck in Miami, in the dark. Still a big mess now, and Katrina was just warming up. Good luck to all in her path.

By the way, I highly recommend LED flashlights that brightly go 300 hours on 3 AA batteries. Mine's a Lightwave and was very much worth it's weight.

Kaptin M
27th Aug 2005, 22:11
Well how about this, Mr Bushed...
The Kyoto Protocol
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

27th Aug 2005, 22:14
Gee....hurricanes in the southern part of the United States....what a surprise! Natural course of events folks...remember Hugo, Fran, Camille, Helen, and dozens of others?

Remember the one that wiped out the railroad in the Keys? Killed hundreds of people....in the '20's it was as I remember.

We will survive this one just like the rest of them....if you get blown away...you get out the hammer, saw, shovel and nails...and re-build. Life goes on.

It will be raining cats and dogs when I get home...and hopefully the trees will not have fallen on top of my pickup truck....don't want that bubble level broken...might need it re-building.

27th Aug 2005, 22:16
Good luck to everyone in the area.
To think we moan about a bit of rain and the odd storm.

Trouble is at times like this when there is a potential disaster affecting '000's of people and a huge death toll are there still the same old arseholes trying to get in a cheap political shot.
For fecks sake


27th Aug 2005, 22:16

I feel better now that you've shown me US CO2 emissions are on a par with the rest of the world in terms of emissions per unit of economic output. See? We're just like you!

Also I'm impressed that Scripps et al. were able to measure atmospheric CO2 levels in 1200 AD.:confused:


I see we agree on Kyoto!


27th Aug 2005, 22:56
That’s true SAS, however, New Orleans has never been hit by a category 4 hurricane since we have been keeping track of hurricanes. Because New Orleans so low the pumps that are used to remove excess rain water will be under water and will not be able to work. There have some people on TV claming that it is possible that if Katrina does become a category 4 hurricane and does make a direct hit on New Orleans that it could be up to 6 months before New Orleans recovers.

I read a book about a hurricane that hit long Island back in the early 1900s. One of the stories I remember the best was about a man that had just bought a barometer and the morning of the storm the reading was so low he thought the thing was broken. So he got a train to go back into New York City where bought it and when he came home his house was gone.

When it comes to the highest death toll for the United States I believe that the hurricane that hit Galveston just south of Houston back around the turn of the 20th century was the highest. That was before they named hurricanes.

419, if you want argue about global warming please start another thread, let’s keep this on New Orleans, okay. Thanks.:ok:

27th Aug 2005, 23:10
Dang, now I been :mad: !:E

Just what does 'con' mean in French, if its that bad I'll change me name. One would think that Grandpa would have already pointed this out to me.:)

28th Aug 2005, 00:30
El Lute,

In 1973, when the US Environmental Protection Agency introduced emission standards to the American automobile market, we were buying Peugeots, Opels, Fiats, Simcas, Renaults, Saabs (two strokes and Sonnets), Renaults, Aston Martins, Iso Grifos, Lancias, and many other makes from manufacturers who chose to leave our market rather than comply with the new standards, the world's first regarding emissions.

The argument against Kyoto was, and is, that it would cripple the US economy while imposing no restrictions on China, India, or, in the near term, Russia. And it based its restrictions and limits on theory which was widely challenged. Interestingly, none of the industrial nations signing up to Kyoto have met its strictures, or even made much of an effort to comply. The US Senate saw it for what it was, a feel-good attempt to force the US into an untenable, leftist doctrine of anti-industrial policy; and of course the Senate rejected it out of hand.

In the mean time, the US has engaged in a realistic effort with China, Australia, India, and Japan, where future industrial activity will be most concentrated, to reduce emissions in an economically realistic and cost-effective way. Something 'Green' Europe has not attempted to any significant degree.

Now, back to New Orleans. If New Orleans can't weather a direct hit by a hurricane, its days in its present state are numbered in any case. As SAS implied, when the big one happens, NO will be rebuilt to a more survivable standard, and better than before. The people are moving to safety, hoping for the best, and will return after the storm as they always have. Pardon me for saying so, but they're Americans, and they'll get through it.

28th Aug 2005, 01:21
Starting to nit-pick/invent "amusing" variations/second guess somebody's username generally ends up with attacking the person rather than his/her argument.
So knock it off already!

Connie, the reason Grandpa has never taken the cheap shot of informing you what 'con' means in French is probably because Gramps is a gentleman of the old school who might have his 'persistent issues' ;) with the USA but who knows how to have a civilised debate without lowering himself to dishing out personal abuse.

It's one of the things the two of you have in common ......

West Coast
28th Aug 2005, 06:51
You can figure the quality of the individual your dealing with when your screen name becomes mangled.

Kaptin M quote:

"Well how about this, Mr Bushed...
The Kyoto Protocol"

This being the same document that allows Russia to increase it pollution output, yes increase it. Kyoto is a reallocation of resources in its actions and environmental based in words only.
I wish I had bookmark the site in which one of the framers spoke about Kyoto being more about symbology than any concrete steps towards slowing global warming. The Kodak photo moment of politicians gripping and grinning that it would have provided is a great expense to the US. Consider it would have put the equivalent size city of Detroit out of work just here in the US with nothing to show other than allocating that level of pollution produced to Africa.

28th Aug 2005, 07:12
Obviously a very serious situation for NO, but to inject just a little levity, Con Pilot wrote:

If Katrina becomes a category 4 hurricane New Orleans may become inhabitable for months

I presume he/she meant uninhabitable....

28th Aug 2005, 08:40
National Hurricane Center (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/)

28th Aug 2005, 12:36
August 27, 2005 10:28 a.m. EDT from NASA satellite image (http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/h2005_katrina.html)


Now officially a Category 4 hurricane... (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCPAT2+shtml/280850.shtml)

I really hope nobody ignores the enormous risks in staying behind and trying to "sit this one out". :mad: See Galveston Hurricane 1900 (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/history.shtml#galveston)

And spare a thought for all the stray cats and dogs, the birds and the bees... :sad:

28th Aug 2005, 13:00
My only first cousin and his wife live in NOL and may be too frail to drive. I hope their son can get over from Baton Rouge to pick them up.

I'm more worried about the large tree in their yard than the water. That is if the tree doesn't crush the two-story end of their house. Their bedroom is at the far end. Their church is at the end of their street and raised a bit which might provide a refuge - or the pariish house might. At least they are well-known to the priest(s).

28th Aug 2005, 13:18
From the Hurricane centre:eek:




Even the forecasters/experts have never seen anything like this:eek:

28th Aug 2005, 13:26
Silly question, but... :O

Discarding the longer-term disadvantages of doing so for a moment, what, if any effects would setting off a very powerful H-bomb at altitude have on a hurricane...?!

28th Aug 2005, 13:37
The National Weather Service issues a "Discussion" separate from each of its 6-hour forecasts.

These discussions usually give the reasoning behind the forecast and are often stated in the first person and signed. They are generally frank about ability to forecast. I recall a winter forecast some years ago that started "There is no way I can win with this forecast." The area was on the freezing line so the precip might be rain or snow, a little or a lot.

28th Aug 2005, 14:13
Remember cars sold in Europe cannot be sold in the United States because they cannot meet the pollution standards of the United States.

Always struck me as strange that, in Europe, after the first petrol crisis in the '70s that major efforts were made and succeeded in greatly increasing the fuel economy of vehicles. This trend has continued not least because of the high price, or should I say high tax, on fuel.

In the US the improvement has been small and cars still have massive engines with relatively poor fuel economy. The Humvee being just one glaring example.

The actual pollution level per gallon of fuel burnt in a vehicle in the US may be at a lower level than Europe but that is of little consequence if each vehicle burns more fuel several times over than a European equivalent.

Like so many other things in the US there is such glaring inconsistency e.g. massive health conciousness amongst a percentage of the population coupled with the highest incidence of obesity on the planet.

The same applies to the ecology of the world. Vast number of US citizens greatly concerned coupled with a nation that is the largest and most extravagant per capita consumer of fossil fuels.

With regard to climate change how is it known for certain that we are not witnessing a natural cycle when these things are measured in millions of years?

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Aug 2005, 14:17
Best wishes with all those facing the cantankerous lady.


I believe the amount of energy released by a nuclear device is minor compared to that in a full blown hurricane. Anyone know any more?

28th Aug 2005, 14:51
I'm sure that the total energy available in a hurricane system probably outnumbers our most powerful H-bomb by a factor of several 10s of thousands...

But I was thinking a little along the lines of chaos theory and the butterfly effect. The comparatively (minute) amount of energy released by a H-bomb "in an instant" and the shock waves radiating from the centre might have a great effect?!

And what if the radio-active "fallout" was mostly contained by the hurricane and fell into the ocean...?! :O

Kaptin M
28th Aug 2005, 14:57
CNN is now reporting that Katrina is a Category 5 hurricane.

Somewhat ironic that there was a group called Katrina & the Waves ("Walking on Sunshine"), in that it appears a lot of the damage will come from the waves associated with this Force of Nature.

28th Aug 2005, 15:08
One wonders if Katrina is not some fiendish neocon plot in order to rid the USA of the last remnants of the French influence there... :uhoh:

28th Aug 2005, 16:00

Maybe you're right about ridding us of French influence. You may not have realized that Katrina missed hitting Hollywood, Florida, head-on by less than 10 km. Hollywood is Quebec-south.... Many of the motels post signs like "TV en Francais", "On Parle Francais" and some of the free tourist brochures are bilingual.

Certainly sounds suspicious:O

However, the Hollywood place I've stayed is bilingual German / English, not French.

Nevertheless, I'm really worried for my cousins in New Orleans.
Edited Sunday evening to add that my cousins are now at their son's place at Baton Rouge.

28th Aug 2005, 16:18
seacue have you contacted your rellies? hope all is under way to evac them if required ... I saw something yesterday that all routes/highways to/from New Orleans have been changed to out-of-town only?

Just want to say again that those about to be affected are very much in my thoughts and prayers. In Florida hurricane shelters won't take pets in an evac situation .. so dogs/cats/horses and other critters either have to be left or humans have to find an alternative way of taking care of themselves and their animals - is that true in Louisiana too? For many elderly and single people their pet is their family so to contemplate abandonment is just horrible.

I have total admiration for the way the USA rides out natural and other disasters but suspect that this storm, if she makes landfall when anticipated, is going to destroy a lot of what made Louisiana so special :(

28th Aug 2005, 16:21
The Superdome looks built like the proverbial Brick Shirthouse (name of a store in Toronto) and the authorities are evacuating seniors and the medically infirm to it from designated pickup locations.

Here's hoping it can stand up to a cat 5 storm and the flooding.

Toll collection has been suspended on the routes out and contraflow seems to have relieved the traffic problems.

Other routes will be closed off by the levee gates later today.

Local Report (http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml)

28th Aug 2005, 17:33
You are correct Topbunk, I was writing in a hurry and did not proof read.:uhoh:

Yeah, it is now a category 5 storm and mandatory evacuation of New Orleans has been ordered for those who can evacuate. For those who cannot evacuate by their own means the football stadium will be used for a shelter and the National Guard will assist in the evacuation. I just hope that the Superdome will be able to withstand 150+ mph winds.

It is going to be a long night in New Orleans tonight, let us all hope and pray for the best.

Broken, sadly yes animals are not allowed into shelters. However, most places do have designated animal shelters for people to leave pets such as dogs and cats, but for the larger animals such as horses they must be left to fend for themselves. It is another sad part of the impact of such a huge natural disaster.

28th Aug 2005, 17:48
State Police activated the state's redesigned contraflow plan Saturday at 4 p.m., allowing traffic to use both sides of Interstates 55, 59 and 10 to evacuate New Orleans to the north, east and west after early afternoon traffic left westbound lanes of I-10 backed up bumper-to-bumper for miles in the 93-degree heat. Within hours, however, the contraflow system seemed to have alleviated much of the logjam.

The Crescent City Connection and the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway suspended toll collections to move traffic more quickly. You know, reading that took me back about 65 million years. There I was, in Louisiana (as we know it today), minding my own business, enjoying a little siesta in the hot afternoon sun, about as humble as a Tyrannosaurus could be. When out of the blue, all manner of deelicious creatures began surging through what was known as Death valley to all around these here parts in them days. Now, I'm as partial to a juicy leg of duck (Anatotitan they called 'em then) as the next super-predator but something made me stop in my tracks and holler out to my fellow Tyrannosaurae: "This is too good to be true, something's gone awry?!" It came to me in a flash of inspiration. We'd had hurricanes before of course. When the critters behaved similarly, disregarding all dangers in order to flee the menace only this time, there was a special desperation. I could only cry out: "Forget the 5 o'clock snack. Flee my brethren, seek higher ground at once", thinking of 15 to 20ft tidal surges! Did anyone take me seriously back then either?! :{

PS. I felt it would be a contravention of my public duty if I were not to draw to your attention the following comment from the Rev. Chuck T Hogblanket, Laird Bayou, Alabama, USA on the BBC website... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4193244.stm) We\'ve said it before and we\'ll say it again, we ain\'t moving for no storm be it a hurricane, tornado or blizzard. Lucky for us down at the refuge we don\'t have to move, the underground shelter we have is plenty big enough for our modest congregation. We have been stocking the shelves with food and drink to last us almost two weeks. The town looks awful funny all boarded up and deserted. You can tell by the colour of the sky something big is brewing, the waiting is the hardest part. I hope we don\'t lose our internet connection. I know we won\'t lose our faith that this will soon be over! Yeah, you noticed the bit about the underground shelter too?! :uhoh:

28th Aug 2005, 18:43
Mobile Radar (http://radar.weather.gov/radar/latest/DS.p38cr/si.kmob.shtml)

I don't know how long the NO radar will be operational or in communication, but Mobile will likely remain available.

The first rainband will hit quite soon as it's about 25 nm to the South.

The cells are moving at about 40 kt.

28th Aug 2005, 19:01
From another web site.

Katrina cuts oil output by a third
August 28, 2005: 11:22 AM EDT

HOUSTON (Reuters) - U.S. energy companies said U.S. Gulf of Mexico crude oil output was cut by more than one-third on Saturday as Hurricane Katrina appeared poised to charge through central production areas toward New Orleans.

The Gulf of Mexico is home to roughly a quarter of U.S. domestic oil and gas output, with a capacity to produce about 1.5 million barrels per day of crude and 12.3 billion cubic feet per day of gas.

As of Saturday, 563,000 barrels daily crude output had been shut in due to the threatening storm.

Shell Oil Co., which was evacuating all 1,019 of its offshore workers in the central and eastern Gulf on Saturday, had the bulk of closed Gulf daily oil production, with 420,000 barrels turned off.

Shell also said 1.345 billion cubic feet per day, or Bfd, of natural gas had been shut by Saturday.

Total daily Gulf natural gas output shut on Saturday was 1.9 billion cubic feet.

Chalmette Refining LLC, which operates a New Orleans-area refinery, was shutting down production in preparation for the approach of the hurricane, which is predicted to produce winds near 131 mph (210 kph) when it charges ashore on Monday.

Chalmette is a joint venture between Exxon Mobil Corp. and Venezuelan state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA and operates a 190,000-bpd refinery 9 miles east of downtown New Orleans.

The shutdown was to be completed by Katrina's predicted landfall on Monday afternoon, said Chalmette spokeswoman Nora Scheller.

Other southeast Louisiana refineries were operating on Saturday but were reducing staff and preparing for possible shutdowns, the companies said.

Ship traffic along the Mississippi River from the Gulf of Mexico to New Orleans was halted on Saturday when ship pilots said conditions were already unsafe to continue moving vessels along the waterway.

The U.S. Coast Guard was warning mariners of possible waterway closures along the Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama coasts as early as Sunday afternoon.

The Louisiana Offshore Oil Port LLC stopped offloading tankers in the Gulf of Mexico at midday on Saturday. The LOOP, which is the only U.S. offshore oil port, takes an average 1 million barrels in foreign crude from tankers in the Gulf.

While offloading is halted, the LOOP is supplying refiners via pipeline with crude stored on shore.

Katrina, which was a major Category 5 hurricane by Sunday morning, according to the Saffir-Simpson scale of intensity, meaning it would likely produce catastrophic damage with winds of at least 155 mph (249 kph).

Katrina was originally projected to take a path west across southern Florida, turn north in the eastern Gulf and strike the Florida Panhandle as a minimal hurricane.

As late as Friday afternoon, many producers were taking a wait-and-see approach common with eastern Gulf storms, where oil and gas drilling and production are sparse.

But the storm's long drift westward Friday afternoon and evening meant it was gaining intensity from deep, warm Gulf waters and would not turn north in time to avoid production areas.

Katrina is expected to reach land "sometime between 5 a.m. and 8 a.m." Monday, according to CNN meteorologist Brad Huffines.

Hold on to your hats on oil prices come monday when the markets open.:uhoh:

TAF KMSY 281720Z 281818 08020G25KT P6SM SCT030 BKN200
FM0300 02080G110KT 1/4SM +RA OVC003

Gust to 110kts

28th Aug 2005, 19:11
I hope that the ordinary people can find a safe place to be, but most of the world will be thinking "the world's strongest pwer, and they can't help themselves? you are on your own".

The US will get little sympathy, sadly, many others will think even worse thoughts.

Any way, good luck.

28th Aug 2005, 19:30
Price of petrol at the pump is affected by oil prices, refinery capacity and the transport of the product. Funny that no matter what happens, the price of oil always goes up, when one would assume that since that is the only part that is fixed, it should stay the same.

Gas prices in the US would drop 30 percent if they had one standard for the whole country. At present there are dozens, each state having two, one for winter and one for summer, and only a few of them with common standards, such that a state cannot get gas from its neighbour, but has to do without or get it from a long way away when a supply problem exists. The fuel companies (and the oil producers!) are laughing all the way to the bank. After something like this happens, and often while it is going on, we read about record profits being made by the oil companies. Reminds me of the way the fishermen are happy to take the last fish from the sea, never mind that they destroy the resource, so long as they get theirs. The oil companies are determined to destroy our way of life, our economies, our families, so long as they get more for their shareholders and CEOs. I would find it easier to understand their avarice and their motives if the actual price of their doing business was higher, but insurance will put the refineries back in business, and oil will always be there for them to pump.

What happened to the people years back when asked about alternative fuels (oil shale, liquifying coal, motor fuel from natural gas, thermal, hydrogen, fuel cells, batteries, etc) that so long as oil was so cheap they could not compete? Oil is a lot more now than it was then, so where are those who have viable alternatives?

The regulators do their part too. The catalytic converter in your car wastes around 10 percent of the fuel. The only reason it is there is show, since it does its work when it is at the right temperature and the right fuel/air mixture, conditions that rarely happen, and especially never happen in stop/start freeway driving or around town, where the effect of the converter is needed. And the converter is the reason we use lead free gas, since lead destroys the cat. We could have gone to low lead fuel instead, with the same benefit (almost), but the regulators saw that cat as the answer. Without lead we had to put in benzene, which again costs us a further 10 percent in fuel efficiency, since on its own it has less energy than the gasolene it replaces. The old formula for fuel, which added only lead, gave more mileage when you use high octane fuel, but with the new formula you get less mileage with high octane grades, due to the benzene. the higher the octane, the more benzene required, the less available to drive your car. And if I had to be exposed to lead or benzene, I think I would take lead. Benzene will kill you faster and with more damage to the environment on the way.

In the old days (60s and 70s) we got about the same fuel economy as we do now, and I would love to see those cars equipped with modern engines, fuel injection, computer controlled, yet burning real (old formula) fuel, lead and all. The mileage would be phenomenal, and the emissions would be as low as now, since the real reason for pollution from cars is the burning of petrol. Less gas consumed, less pollution produced.

It would be nice if the refineries in the New Orleans area cut their prices for petrol after the event, eating some of the cost by even (gasp) taking a loss, to show support and pay back the citizens of the area for the support they themselves have been given over the years.

28th Aug 2005, 19:45
That's quite a horrible reflection you've come up with there niknak. The 2 most populous countries on the planet India and China, regularly suffer thousands of casualties due to typhoons / cyclones. The world's most populous Muslim nation Indonesia, recently suffered truly horrendous losses because of the 2004 tsunami. The response of the USA to that catastrophe and the assets provided in the relief efforts afterwards were without equal!

You're right that there will be a lot of people out there with little sympathy...or worse thoughts. But I cannot by any stretch of the imagination believe otherwise than that the vast majority of ordinary people around the world who're aware of what's happening, will be thinking sympathetically of the uncertainties facing those other ordinary Americans at this time.

You speak as if you draw your inspiration from the Dark side, Sir. :sad:

28th Aug 2005, 19:56
Live webcams for New Orleans. Webcams (http://www.nola.com/bourbocam/)

28th Aug 2005, 20:43
I'm not a religious person, but I shall say a small prayer for the folks of the Big Easy.

Aviation forecast for KMSY (New Orleans Lakefront Airport)
From 0300Z 02080G110 KT 1/4 SM + RA OVC 0300

(From 0300 Zulu, 10 PM local this evening, winds north north east at 80 gusting to 110 nautical miles per hour, visibility 1/4 statute mile heavy rain, overcast at 300 feet.)

28th Aug 2005, 20:49
I hope that the ordinary people can find a safe place to be, but most of the world will be thinking "the world's strongest pwer, and they can't help themselves? you are on your own".

The US will get little sympathy, sadly, many others will think even worse thoughts.

Any way, good luck


Warm thoughts? Maybe "most" of your "world" could refresh their memories of US Navy helicopters passing out food and water to Indonesians wearing Bin Laden T-shirts. The tonnage each day was more than the entire French shipload that showed up 6 weeks later. Maybe we see Iranian C-130's landing in Alabama with relief supplies as the US did when after an earthquake leveled Bam. I doubt it. Most will figure out something most americans already known, that we bleed and die from mother nature just like everyone else.

There will be help and prayers from around the world, and it will be appreciated.

Just issued from the National Weather Service.

I have never heard anything like it before, it sounds almost like a nuclear detonation.

1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005












Here is a past New Orleans newspaper link to a series on the nightmare scenario that is forecast tomorrow. Huuricane (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/index.html)

Hope forecasts are wrong

28th Aug 2005, 21:20
Well WhatsaLizad, I hope that everyone in the area who's not in Kristina's direct path will even now be preparing their gas-guzzling 4x4s and trailer-boats in order to whizz around to NO immediately afterwards. If the worse comes to pass, some lives could still be saved by ornery folks...! :ok:

28th Aug 2005, 21:40
Been comparing some of the forecasts of worst-case scenario with Google Earth imagery. The WCS is storm surge breaking over the levee to the east and cutting off all escape that way, then the lake flooding inland and south and cutting off westwards escape, with the city under twenty feet of water.

I can see why there's been a mandatory evacuation. And if people are not out by tonight, yikes! That dome's going to be put to the test and I don't think I'd like to be present.

28th Aug 2005, 21:57
Agreed, it's doubtful the Superdome would be a fun place to be. However, it is reported to be capable of withstanding 200 mph winds -- though the storm is now in the 165-175 mph range. :uhoh:

To give this some aviation relationship, we know that because of the brave crews of NOAA's WP3D Orion "Hurricane Hunters" that willingly fly into the scuz. :ok:

One can't begin to express one's disappointment with those who deliberately attempt to hijack a thread about an impending natural disaster and turn it into a political diatribe. :yuk:

28th Aug 2005, 22:16
I love New Orleans, I can't believe the destruction that is headed its way. Ivan was a Cat 5 that hit Grand Cayman last year and they still are not recovered from the devastation.

News now is that police are closing the highways out of NOLA due to the rain and wind picking up. God speed.


Katrina is now due to make a direct hit on NOLA as its track has moved west.

28th Aug 2005, 22:23
Approx 250 nm away moving at 15 kt.

NO Radar (http://radar.weather.gov/radar/latest/DS.p20-r/si.klix.shtml)

Kaptin M
28th Aug 2005, 22:37


28th Aug 2005, 23:45
What is more frightening is the possible aftermath of the storm.

No fresh water for weeks, possibly months.

No electric power for weeks.

No food except for REMs.

Pollution from oil refineries and chemical plants.

What little land left above sea level will be occupied by both humans and wildlife, such as poisonous snakes and alligators to mention a couple of rather unfriendly types.

No infrastructure such sewage treatment plants will be able to operate.

Diseases such as typhoid fever because of water contaminated by the bodies of both human and animal. Sadly this will persist long after the hurricane has pasted because there is no where for the water to go because New Orleans is 12 feet under sea level.

I also don’t know if the Navy will be able to bring in support ships into New Orleans as they were able to in Miami after Andrews. Just a few days after Andrews hit Miami the Navy was able to dock hospital ships, ships to provide electrical power and water purification ships almost right in downtown Miami. The reason being that the channels into New Orleans from the gulf may be impassable of a long time where as in Miami the ships could come straight in from the ocean.

Last report I heard was the pressure was down to 904 Mb. and dropping. There is chance, a small one however, that Katrina will lose power when it hits the shallow water just off shore New Orleans, the water temperature is currently 90 F. Let us hope she does calm down, every little bit of weakening will help.

Believe it or not I have just heard on the news that most of the bars are still open in the French Quarter and people are having hurricane parties. The police, fire department and the National Guard have announced that once the high winds hit they will not, repeat not respond to emergency calls until the hurricane has safely passed.

So I guess if there are any ppruners spending the storm ridding it out in a bar in New Orleans I can only wish you good luck, because if you get into trouble you are not going to get any help for awhile. However, I know that no ppruner is that stupid, I certainly can believe that there may be some ppruners in New Orleans as part of the relief effort however.

New Orleans Naval Air Station TAF:

KNBG 281515 06015KT 9000 SCT030 BKN050 BKN200 QHN2960INS VCTS
BECMG 1719 03020KT 9999 VCTS BKN030 BKN060 OVC200 QNH2958INS
TEMPO 1720 4800 SHRA BR
TEMPO 0206 VRB50G70KT 1600 +TSRA BR OVC003CB
BECMG 0507 VRB115G130KT 0400 +TSRAGR OVC003CB QNH2860INS
TEMPO 0509 +FC
TEMPO 0913 +FC
TEMPO 1315 +FC T34/20Z T24/11Z

Wind 115 gusting to 130 knots, thunderstorm, rain, hail temporarily tornadoes...

29th Aug 2005, 01:12
Possible good news. The peak winds are down, yes down, to 160mph and the storm is slowing. Let’s keep hoping!:ok:

29th Aug 2005, 01:36
niknak, I've only just logged on and seen your post. All I can say is you are beneath contempt. :yuk:

Good luck to our American friends.

Ronnie Honker
29th Aug 2005, 03:12
Hang on Binos, niknak has wished them good luck, and his post is probably not completely incorrect.
The US isn't #1 in everyones' eyes, believe it or not.

It would have read better, had niknak written,
The US will get LOADS OF sympathy, sadly, many others will think even worse thoughts.

The point I believe he was making, when he wrote, "the world's strongest pwer, and they can't help themselves? you are on your own"., was that although America is seen as the N0 1 Superpower, there are unseen natural forces that dwarf the power of the mighty US to the point where it is unable to completely defend its own people.

(I would hope that is what he was getting at.)

29th Aug 2005, 04:00
Being in the middle of a horrible misunderstanding with a dear friend at the moment, caused by a misinterpretation of the written word, so for that reason only I will allow it's possible that niknak's post was poorly worded to the extent that he actually meant the opposite of the way I read it. But to substitute "little sympathy" for your suggested "LOADS of sympathy" smacks of a touch more than a careless mistake.

However, even if your kind interpretation of his meaning were to be the case, the sentiment did NOT in my opinion need to be raised at all on this thread. I know millions of scum all over the world will be taking pleasure in the US's misfortune, any misfortune, but I think it was in poor taste and utterly irrelevant to bring that up here.

29th Aug 2005, 06:30
New Orleans:

KNBG 282121 06015G25KT 9000 BR SCT030 BKN050 OVC080 QHN2960INS VCTS
TEMPO 2202 VRB30G45KT 1600 SHRA BR SCT005 OVC010CB/
BECMG 0204 06040G55 SCT005 OVC010 QNH2900INS
TEMPO 0206 VRB50G70KT 1600 TSRA BR SCT005 OVC010CB
BECMG 0507 VRB115G130KT 0400 +TSRAGR BR SCT005 OVC010CB QNH2860INS
TEMPO 0509 +FC
TEMPO 0915 +FC
BECMG 1516 120145G175KT 0100 +SHRA BR SCT005 OVC010 QNH2663INS
FM1630 VRB06KT 9999 SCT300 QNH2668INS
FM1830 270140G160KT 0100 +TSRA BR SCT005 OVC010CB QNH2672INS T24/11Z T34/20Z

Now, that is an impressive TAF with winds as up (175 kts) as an altimeter can be down (26.63)


29th Aug 2005, 06:35
Could I ask a quick favour? If you'd like to bash the US (yawn), discuss energy policies or just be generally antisocial, please start another thread. Preferably on another website. There are some tiny, naiive minds on this forum - and that's putting it charitably.

New Orleans pulled its emergency services off the streets at 23:55 CT. The Superdome now houses an estimated 26,000 people in difficult conditions, with three days of food. Katrina's path has defied accurate forecasting, and is being touted as possibly the strongest storm to hit the U.S.

From folks I've spoken to, the driving time from N.O. to Houston (from where I type) was between 8 and 20 hours. My neighbour took 9 hours to travel the 80 miles to Baton Rouge and is now trying to sleep in her car, exhausted. I was more fortunate; the FBO called this morning to say there was a C172 available; would I be interested in flying it out of town? Easy call. Most of the flight was over gridlock on the I-10; we had an easy ride by comparison. Just been sitting in the hotel bar, comparing notes with others, trying not to dwell on how our homes may look if/when we return.

Folks, please spare a thought for those who couldn't or wouldn't get out. Some friends refused to leave the French Quarter, convinced they'd survive again. By the time they realised the true danger, it was too late to leave. My roommate's mother is in a New Orleans nursing home, too ill to be moved.

It's been an exhausting day; will try to get some rest. We're crossing our fingers. Right now, that's all we can do.

29th Aug 2005, 07:14
I think (hope) the point our colleague was trying to make....is the USA sends Aid to those that are harmed by natural disasters....as we should but when we are the victims of similar disasters....no aid gets sent our direction....even by those that could afford to do so. I can assure you that in times of need....any help offered is appreciated.

When you get out of the house after an event like this to find all the powerlines down, the streets and roads blocked by fallen trees, the water unsafe to drink for a week or two....no petrol stations open...it reminds one of how weak humans are compared to the forces of nature.

But...remember folks...we are used to these things...they are a normal part of life to those that live in areas vulnerable to them. That does not mitigate the damage or the misery they cause but as always....you pick up, clean up, rebuild and move on with your life.

That is as it should be....no difference between the USA, Indonesia, or Bangladesh in that regard...just maybe in the way other nations respond to those that are harmed by the storm.

29th Aug 2005, 07:26
SASless, re-reading niknak's post, yours is a reasonable interpretation which I admit hadn't occurred to me. If that was your intended meaning, niknak, I withdraw my comments and apologise unreservedly.

This is the second example for me today of how words without accompanying spoken nuances can be sadly misinterpreted; once my words by somebody else, now somebody else's words by me. Perhaps I should have been more alert to the possibility. :(

Sorry to get the thread off track. Crepello, best wishes to all your friends/acquaintances left behind.

29th Aug 2005, 09:01
Link (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/satellite.shtml)


29th Aug 2005, 12:45

4 video grabs!

29th Aug 2005, 13:56
The radar shows the eye has come ashore and it looks like the west wall of the eye will pass NO on the east.

This is close to the worst-case scenario as:[list=1] Lk. Ponchartrain is getting pumped up with surge from the current winds which have now backed from SE to easterly
Once Ponchartrain has been loaded up, the Easterly and subsequent NE flow will push the water to the west
The subsequent north, NW and west winds will generate waves and surges against the levees:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

29th Aug 2005, 16:41
Here's a blog with some more info about what is going on in New Orleans.


Sounds like one of the levees as been breached.

Good luck to all those in the Superdome.


29th Aug 2005, 19:22
One levee in New Orleans is down and the flooding increasing. No hourly weather observation is available for KMSY or KNEW.

In Kenner, La. just east of New Orleans has heavy flooding with many people on rooftops waiting for rescue.

No helicopters will be launched until the winds die off.

Oil is now over $70.00 USD a barrel.

It is now looking like Mississippi has been hit worse than New Orleans.

Overall it appears that New Orleans has been spared from the worse case possible. However, we cannot be able to tell how bad the damage is until they get some helicopters up and into the damage area.

29th Aug 2005, 21:04
So, while I was enjoying red orange sunset below the pale blue sky over the distant mountains with a light wind blowing and moving the pine branches, people were enduring this nightmare in USA, and will have to live with it and face the aftermath for months.

This winter it was the tsunami hiting Indonesia.

My place seems to be safe, but who knows?

I'm sure USA are more prepared, and have got the means to protect their population and rebuild their facilities once the cyclone has left, than, say Bangladesh ot Philippines.

But I know there will be many victims, and the survivors will need help from their fellowcountrymen first, and from abroad as well.

This isn't a matter for international rivalry : we should realize how fragile are our communities when faced with these disasters, and understand solidarity is the prevailing value of humanity disregarding places, nations, and all these stupid bareers between us.

29th Aug 2005, 21:27
First off, thank you for those thoughts Grandpa.

Good news from New Orleans, the French Quarter is basically untouched except for minor roof and window damage. I just saw a live TV feed from Bourbon Street and things look in really good shape, as a matter of fact it looks better than after a normal weekend.

Sadly the seven people that remained on Grand Isle seem to be missing. No one will know for sure until they get some helicopters into the area.

More good news, crude oil prices are easing off from this morning’s high.

29th Aug 2005, 21:50
NO's levees were designed for a category 3 storm and it's beginning to seem that Katrina had come down to that level when it go to NO. A very well done to the levee folks:ok:

That's called dodging a bullet.

While the storm core attenuated before hitting NO, there's considerable damage reported in Gulfport, Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola which got hit by the full-blast surge and winds on the east side of the storm.

The best news of all is that -- so far -- there are no reports of heavy loss of life.

The really big one could be coming down next week or next century, likely with less in the way of shoreline buffers:uhoh: -- barring a massive public works program.

The lessons learned from this one will contribute to minimising loss of life the next time around. That said, it's looking like the NO authorities and residents handled this one pretty well:ok:

29th Aug 2005, 23:35
Anyone know if Clete Purcell is ok?
Large fella.... old Caddy?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
29th Aug 2005, 23:48
Hope 'The Big Easy' really has missed this bullet, as news reports seem to be suggesting. I was in 'Nawlins' for a week a couple of months ago and loved the place. :ok:


30th Aug 2005, 01:16
MOBILE, Ala. Alabama authorities today closed a major bridge over the Mobile River after it was struck by a runaway oil drilling platform during Hurricane Katrina.



There's also 2 more adrift in the gulf.

30th Aug 2005, 15:06
Con-pilot, I hope your beloved city comes through in good shape.
Just one point though, the hole in the ozone layer was first observed by a British scientist based in Antatrica and he was using ground based and balloon observations. NASA were looking elsewhere, as is ever the case.

30th Aug 2005, 16:02
The latest news from New Orleans isn't good, I'm afraid. Two levees have failed and water levels are reported to be rising again throughout the city. The 'Twin Spans' were elevated concrete bridges of the I-10, linking New Orleans to Slidell and beyond to the west of Lake Pontchairtrain. The mayor reports they are completely destroyed.

The Superdome looks entirely miserable but Dear God, it could have been so much worse.

Yesterday our spirits were heightened as we knew it could have been worse. Today, they're downed as the real extent of the damage becomes apparent. The city is in a state of devastation. The sheer amount of reconstruction beggars belief. It'll be a while before we have to mow our lawns again...

Our hearts go out to the people of Mississippi, who took the real brunt and whose human losses are significantly higher than our own. A CNN reporter choked up on air last night as she described the experience, and the current situation.


30th Aug 2005, 16:14
Crepello your concern for the people of Mississippi does you credit.
I echo Grandpa's sentiments in wishing you strength in the coming period of rebuilding & recovering your beautiful city.

30th Aug 2005, 16:32
They only have an electronic issue. My congratulations on their disaster planning, especially as they also provided refuge to employee family members.

Except that it could have been much worse, the news is not that good. One grace is that the flooding came after the winds had died down. Survival of anybody driven outdoors by flood in high wind would not have been likely.

Times-Picayune (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrina/)

There is concern that flooding trapped and drowned people in attics -- search is beginning. Here's hoping the bodies they find are live ones.

30th Aug 2005, 17:15
Indeed, the news is not particularly encouraging.

The Times-Picayune site posted by RBF now carries a notice that water continues to rise outside their offices and they are going to try to make a break on the route open out of town, to Houma.

Martial law is now in effect in New Orleans. The levee breeches have put them into a sustained response mode; everyone still in town is being encouraged to leave. It may take weeks to begin recovery efforts.

Live video coverage of the devastation is being carried online at WDSU (http://www.wdsu.com) -- they are actually broadcasting from a sister station in Jackson, Mississippi. As bad as New Orleans is, it appears that areas of coastal Mississippi have also been decimated.

Astra driver
30th Aug 2005, 19:09
I was fortunate to be on board the last aircraft that left New Orleans Lakefront Airport on Saturday night. We were able to convince our passengers to leave a day early once we basically told them that the aircraft would be leaving with or without them!

We dedcided to leave for the airport at 3pm just before the freeways were to be changed to "contraflow", ie. traffic moves in only one direction out of town. Traffic was already building and there were substantial lines at the gas stations and supermarkets. We were told that lakefront airport was going to close at 12 noon on Sunday, but from what I can tell it may not have re-opened after we left at 9:58 pm on Saturday night.

I found it very disturbing driving through the poor neighborhoods that surround Lakefront Airport; most of the residents did not seem to be evacuating, perhaps due to lack of transportation, and were sitting on the front porches of their single story homes which are located as much as 6 feet below sea level. It is my understanding that this entire area has since flooded up to the rooftops with many people stranded on the roofs, or worse trapped in the attics. The fact that there is very little video feed or news coming out of these neighborhoods coupled with the news that the Levee's have failed and the waters are still rising leads me to fear the worst.

30th Aug 2005, 22:22
We left Lakefront at 10am Sunday morning. The guys in the tower said they'd be sticking around for another couple of hours, "to help you guys out". Can't begin to be thankful enough.

Judging by the fast pace of Saturday's evacuation traffic, I reckon most people did as I did - stocked up and planned to tough it out, as it wasn't expected to be stronger than a low Cat 4. When the track hadn't changed on Sunday morning and 200mph was mooted, we fled PDQ. But as Astra observed, there are many in New Orleans East and St Bernard Parish that just didn't have the means.

WWLTV.com are reporting the plan is now to evacuate everyone from the city. Charity hospital (the central municipal facility) is described as "out of commission". This just keeps getting worse.

30th Aug 2005, 22:56
Wow, what a truly sad situation that appears to be getting worse.

It sounds like anarchy around N.O. at the moment. From the Times-Picayune:

Looting in Walmart:
"Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New
Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a
27-inchn flat-screen television.
Officers claimed there was nothing they could do to contain the
anarchy, saying their radio communications have broken down and they had no
direction from commanders."

Best wishes to anyone involved emotionally or financially with the damage throughout the area.

30th Aug 2005, 23:01
NO will be completely evacuated (http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/083005cccawwlevac.43bb0409.html)

Effectively NO has been drowned and it's going to take weeks, if not months, before it's halfway habitable:(

Fortunately the residents have largely made it through:ok: -- not that any of us would want to be in their shoes (what shoes?!) as many don't even have so much as dry clothes on their back:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

A full category 5 hit on NO would likely have put the fatalities in the hundred thousands.

31st Aug 2005, 01:37
I don't think it's the hurricane itself that would kill so many people; I think now it's an issue of flooding and the subsequent breakdown of basic services eg no clean water, filthy water contaminated with human and industrial waste; alligators and poisonous snakes roaming the city. One thing though, I have no sympathy for those pig looters; I hope the PD is wasting no effort on rescuing them!

31st Aug 2005, 02:19
May I offer that there are two kinds of looters:

1) the "normal' thief kind, and

2) those who would be willing to buy food, etc, but the stores aren't operating. These don't intend to starve when the stores are unmanned but still have food.

I think 99.9% of us would be a "type 2 looter" if it came to a desperate situation.

Fortunately my aged N.O. relatives made it to Baton Rouge - though the second levee break may well have flooded theiir home.


31st Aug 2005, 03:18
I don't disagree, but what I've read and seen is mainly looting of jewelry, furniture etc. and a little bit of diapers and water. What are they going to do with the stuff anyway? It'll all be ruined in the flood, and N Orleans is basically uninhabitable anyway.

31st Aug 2005, 04:09
My thoughts and prayers to those left by this trail of devastation... Obviously the challenges will be great... :{

...there is another side of the mountain

31st Aug 2005, 04:58
By now, the developing situation is well documented elsewhere so I'll refrain from commenting for awhile.

If anybody would like to help, please follow the donations link at www.redcross.org


31st Aug 2005, 05:25
I fear that the ugly face of anarchy has raised its evil head in New Orleans. This saddens me to no end. There has just been a report that a police station, the first precinct, in New Orleans has come under fire from two gunmen using AK-47s. The police returned fire and the unknown gunmen fled into the darkness. The police where unable to peruse the suspects as their police cars where out of gas and the rapid rising flood waters would have precluded any ground chase by standard police cars in any case.

Given the fact that the entire city will soon be underwater assuming that the statements from the Mayor and Governor are correct what are these thieving looting idiots thinking? The city has been ordered for a complete mandatory evacuation. Do they think that the Coast Guard and or the National Guard are going help them bring out their looted swag? I can just see some jerk trying to load a big plasma screen TV and a stereo system into the rescue basket from a Coast Guard helicopter.

While I detest looters I can understand people taking basic goods for survival such as water, canned food, etc. I am sure some of the people who have looted unmanned food stores would have paid for the food and water but where unable as there was no one operating the store.

However, I cannot abide those looters who steal basically anything they can get their hands on. As radical as it may sound looters should be dealt with extreme measures, especially when it involves a private residency.

If the reports are accurate there should be a large force of National Guard troops on the ground by tomorrow, hopefully they will soon make short work of these looters.

A growing major problem is that there is no way for many of the relief efforts to access New Orleans. All of the roads and bridges leading into New Orleans are impassable and may remain impassable for quite a few more days, if not weeks.

As bad as it is in New Orleans I cannot find the words to express my horror of the devastation suffered in Mississippi and Alabama. I am just heartbroken. I have been contact with a friend who flew relief for the areas affected by the tsunami last Christmas; he told me that the areas around Biloxi Mississippi look the same. There is total devastation for miles and miles along the coast line. It will be days or weeks, possibly longer until the true death toll will be known.

I am too old of a git to go to the damage areas, however I have sent some money and will send more soon. That’s the least I can do other than pray for all these poor people.

31st Aug 2005, 07:20
Terrible scenes of NO and other area in the gulf states. 80% of NO under water to some depth or another. The Govenor was right, much of the areas look like a nuclear bomb has gone off. Forty foot sea containers strewn inland like toys. MSNBC is carrying this non-stop.

But.... Why on earth are cities built below sea level in hurricane prone areas?

And those looters who are reported to be out of control over wide areas ...those stealing tvs and shoes...shoot 'em...in the legs.

31st Aug 2005, 07:42
Good question--I hope they don't rebuild in the same areas. Fat chance though.

31st Aug 2005, 09:12
I walked into my local Red Cross shop yesterday on the way home

I asked where I could donate to the Fund for the Hurricane Katrina victims.

Blank looks all round :(

Now if it was Africa!!!

31st Aug 2005, 10:49
Well, I wouldn't be overly concerned, M-O-T-F. The cobbler's children usually have the worst shoes.

In addition, try http://www.redcross.org or phone 1800 HELP NOW

If you need reinforcement of the good-heartedness of the vast majority, have a look at these sites -




I've been looking for a colleague in the USA (who turns out to be safe miles away from the disaster) and have nothing but admiration for the way Americans have come together yet again.

31st Aug 2005, 10:55
Interview with Levee Engineer (http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/083005cccawwlunwatering.45718845.html)

31st Aug 2005, 13:25
Quote from Link above:

Q.2. Why were the leves breached?......

A.2. ......These walls and levees were designed to withstand a fast moving category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a strong 4 at landfall, and conditions exceeded the design.

Q.3. Why only Category 3 protection?

A.3. That is what we were authorized to do.

....of all the 'what if' s....

1st Sep 2005, 02:29
This thread ought to have a sticky on it...keep it on the top of the page....one small gesture of support to those up to their noses in the waters of Lago Orleans.

1st Sep 2005, 04:21
I must admit that there are some good people in Texas, some damn good people.:ok:

All of the refugees that were sheltering in the Superdome in New Orleans are now on their way to Houston for new shelter in the Astrodome.

These destitute, homeless people will now have a place to sleep, receive food, water, air conditioning and hot water showers.

I am proud of my Texas neighbors!:ok: :ok: :ok:

Of course there are a couple of people here on pprune that live in Texas that have been bestowed highly sought after, rarely granted and highly appreciated title of “Honorary Oklahoman”. They are of course:

Judy T (My favorite!):)


Onan (but still a Brit) the Clumsy:E

I realize that it should be the honorary title of ‘Okies’, however do you all know that ‘Okies’ spelled backwards is ‘Seiko’. See Oklahoma is famous around the world; you don’t see any thing called Saxet!

Now back to very serious topic of this thread. Will New Orleans come back to what we all know and love? I am afraid that is still very much in the air.

I have just learned that the NBAA (National Business Aircraft Association) has canceled the annual convention that was to be held in New Orleans this year. The NBAA is looking for a new site.

I do understand their decision, I was in Grenada last year 4 months after they were hit by a force 4 hurricane and things were really still bad.

1st Sep 2005, 07:13
New Orleans to be abandoned (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1759348,00.html)

1st Sep 2005, 10:19
The New Orleans situation is particularly distressing given that there was warning.

Government departments have failed to quickly respond to the scale to protect and rescue their citizens.
People are without water!yet International airports are open 120 miles away!

In respect to cmmunications.
As of yesterday there was no updated info on any government website. A private site has been set up with a message board.

However, FEMA have a detailed explaination of why it took as long as it did to get aerial pictures.

All the radio stations were out even the webcasters. Local (displaced) communitites need local info, the web could be used to keep displaced persons in contact and upto date with their local area.
All of this could be planned in advance for very little cash.

A city protected by just a single levee, in retrospect an appalling example of overconfidence in the face of unpredictable mother nature.

In repect to rebuilding some sad souls on the telly saying "we can do it!"
Thats the same spirit that built a city below sea level yards from the beach.

Thursday am BBC report that police have been told to stop looting rather than look for people to rescue.

At least we have been spared the media pundits suggesting that the New Orleans levee was broken by terrorists.


1st Sep 2005, 11:31
What a horrific situation this is for the people of New Orleans, one of the world's most interesting cities, from all accounts. It was a must-see ingredient of my fantasy retirement trip but I never saw it, and it seems increasingly clear that I never will see it the way it was.

As usual there are news reports of the whole gamut of human behaviour that surface in times of crisis. While Katrina was still in the Gulf of Mexico and there were video clips of mass vehicle evacuation, there were also the inevitable shots of idiots with bottles of beer in the hands in bars giving their "I'm an American and nothin' scares me" thumbs-ups to the camera. Meanwhile in the poorer sections of town, people who had no means of evacuating the city stoically awaited their fate.

Yet while dead bodies float in the floodwaters and the potential death toll rises into the realms of the unthinkable, already those with 20-20 hindsight are demanding, here and elsewhere, to know how this could have happened. The gummint orta of done sumpin' about it! How convenient to be blessed with such admirable vision. How wonderful to have an instantly identifiable all-purpose villain like a gummint, any gummint.

All I can say is I hope those screaming now that all possible eventualities should have been covered, everywhere and for ever, are not among those whose mantra, repeated earnestly and at great length is personal liberty, reduced government "interference" and above all, massive cutbacks in government spending.

Why does somebody have to be at fault for everything? Are you wanting to sue the government? Is there a class action already taking shape?
This is nature, folks. In nature above all things, shit happens. The fact that it rather unfairly seems to happen more frequently to those in third world countries may mean it comes as a bigger shock to us when it hits the First World, but it happens nevertheless.

To Crepello and any other NO Ppruners and their friends and relatives, I trust you have escaped the worst of this disaster, at least in personal safety terms.

1st Sep 2005, 11:56
Yet while dead bodies float in the floodwaters and the potential death toll rises into the realms of the unthinkable, already those with 20-20 hindsight are demanding, here and elsewhere, to know how this could have happened. The gummint orta of done sumpin' about it! How convenient to be blessed with such admirable vision. How wonderful to have an instantly identifiable all-purpose villain like a gummint, any gummint.

Realms of the unthinkable... nope that was in South East Asia last year!

1st Sep 2005, 13:29
But they were only Asians, Mike. Remember? :rolleyes:

Even as I typed my words I wondered how long it would take for somebody to state the bleeding obvious.

1st Sep 2005, 13:58
First of all my handle is not meant as some sick joke for those of you with a meteorology degree!

Mike Jeff and Binoculars I think I know where you are coming from, and empaphise with what you are implying.

I have visited N'Orleans and a great city it was and will be again. My prayers are with those who have lost families and friends and those who are displaced.

However, (I await the flaming) I have found the whole media obsession with this disaster affecting NO to be slightly perverse. We are talking about the most powerful and rich country on earth with the lmost powerful military in the world, huge resources of material, troops, helicopters, ships and an excellent road, rail and air infrastructure. I find appeals for donations of money to be obscene! The US is more than capable of helping it's own people. I do take a moment however, to acknowledge the human suffering involved!

A quick search of PPrune for Bangladesh, throws up little more than threads about Cricket. I don't deny that the disaster in NO is terrible and my thoughts are with those who are suffering but, please let the media keep it's reaction in perspective and with a global view

1st Sep 2005, 14:23

I think you are wrong about the broadcast media.

I follow a broadcast enginners web site slightly similar to PPRuNe.

Station WWL 870 New Orleans is on the air, although at about half power (20-some kW). They appear to be acting as the semi-official station. Their transmitter and tower are south of N O LA and are on stilts. They are using their own electric generator and are working with FEMA to get a second (backup) generator and more diesel fuel. It is estimated that they won't get their electric supply back for 30 to 45 days. They are not streaming on the web but welcome anyone who has enough bandwidth to carry their audio.

WWL-TV (operated by an entirely different company) is streaming on the web from a location in Houston, TX, and I understand is being uplinked to a sateliite.

I have no news on other stations.

Darth Nigel
1st Sep 2005, 15:08
Why would they rebuild it where it is? In a bowl that is below the stable water level on all sides?

Given the level of devastation, why not move the city (since much of it will be rebuilt anyway) to a higher location further up the river? Have the folks who built Disney's Old Key West Resort rebuild a city which we could call Newer Orleans in which people could live, safer from the threat of flooding. And keep the ruins of the old one as a reminder that, no matter what Man builds, the Gods can destroy.

But that's probably not "staying the course"... and besides there's a lot of money to be made rebuilding the city every few years. [/cynic]

1st Sep 2005, 15:16
It's strange. Hurricanes have hit the USA so frequently in past years that I never really gave them much thought. The headlines that would usually catch my eye were those about how much it was going to cost European insurers with operations out there.

But there was something about Katrina which made me sit up and want to follow the events concerning this one since about last Friday. I even wanted to take the Monday off work...call it an omen if you wish.

Well, Monday was a normal working day here and the reports I'd read during that day after Katrina hit the coast made it increasingly look like a non-event. Katrina had descended to a Cat. 3, there were no breaches in the levees around N.O. etc. But having stayed up most of Monday night into Tuesday (took Tuesday off instead) online at news stations in the area, what I dreaded appeared to be happening after all, creeping up almost surreptitiously. I just hope that the figures of "many thousands" dead are mere exagerrations but I'm not very sure of anything anymore.

It strikes me that there are many comparisons to be made here with similar events that occur elsewhere:

1) The USA may be the richest and most powerful nation on Earth, but she also has her share of poor folk and just old folk. My misgivings lead me to believe that the largest proportion of casualties will come from these 2 sectors of the population. Old people generally won't go and the poor folk, well, they just can't afford to up and go.

2) On the subject of getting relief assets into the stricken areas: It looks like it will take the USA almost as long for her to get some of her major assets into position off the Gulf Coast as it took for her to bring major assets into play during the Dec. 2004 tsunami, or even longer?

3) I concur with con-pilot's optimism concerning the size of Texan hearts when it comes to accommodating some of the refugees (yes, that's what they are now) temporarily in Houston's Astrodome. If they're really going to close off N.O. for 3-6 months, where will all these people go? Not forgetting the other 4-500,000 who evacuated before Katrina struck?! Here will come the real test of US civilization in the 21st Century: Are the insurers going to pay out for renting half-decent accommodation for all these 1/2 million refugees? Or will it become the Federal government's responsibility? Why do I get the feeling that most people will end up fending for themselves?

4) At the end of the day, the N.O. levees failed. But did it really ever require a Katrina to that? Time may tell.

5) For everyone else who survived Katrina, I thought it might be worth mentionning that some scientists seriously believe that there's a whole chunk of an island in the Canaries that might just slide off and create a "storm-surge" along the coast of N. America of a height which would make Katrina's efforts look like waves you make in the hot-tub...but then, what could anyone do about that?

My heartfelt condolences go out to those who've lost someone dear, and everyone else who will have to rebuild their lives from zero. :sad:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
1st Sep 2005, 15:42
I was in 'The Big Easy' in May for a week. It is hard to reconcile the city I enjoyed then, with its streetcars, amazing music in the Bourbon St bars, the mighty wide and deep Mississippi river with the big ocean-going ships and long trains of tug-driven barges negotiating the bend around Algiers Point, the laid back partying atmosphere, hot sunshine, and wonderful people with what we see on our TV screens today.

My thoughts are with the people of the devastated Crescent City and Gulf coast.


S2A Pictures
1st Sep 2005, 16:24
From BBC online:

"The evacuation of stranded hurricane victims from New Orleans' Superdome stadium has been disrupted after shots were fired at a rescue helicopter. A spokesman for the Louisiana ambulance service told the BBC the crowd had grown unruly and he was concerned for the safety of his staff."

Rescue helicopter shot at (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm)

Sound familiar?

Somalia ... Afganistan ... Iraq ... New Orleans for pity sake!

1st Sep 2005, 17:18
Sound familiar?

Somalia ... Afganistan ... Iraq ... New Orleans for pity sake!

Bloody terrorists!:* :rolleyes:


Lance Murdoch
1st Sep 2005, 17:27
I despair when I read about some of the f:mad: wits I have to share this planet with.

1st Sep 2005, 17:28
NO has overshadowed the devastation on the Gulf coast to the East which in itself is on a par with Andrew in Florida.

NO's particular problem in obtaining relief is that it's located in the middle of a gigantic swamp and that there's only one roundabout secondary highway that's still open. The waterways are blocked as well, but there is talk that a railroad is open.

There's other isolated places that have taken equivalent hits but they don't have something like 60,000 people in need of food and water.

Category 5 protection would have cost $2.5 billion, about 1 tenth of the insured exposure which is a fraction of the total losses -- mind you, the building time is in the order of 30 years.

So what happens if they get partway through rebuilding NO and another Cat 3-5 storm hits before the protection is up:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

While some of NO can be recovered, the majority should be relocated to where it can survive the local hydrology. The levee system can then be limited to small core areas so that sediment deposits can rebuild the lost wetlands.

Wetland protection around new locations will hopefully receive a higher priority than that received by those about NO over the last century.

1st Sep 2005, 19:43
There is already talk about having a much smaller New Orleans, a Newer Orleans if you must.

Mostly just to have the area around the downtown and the French Quarter restored. If there is any French Quarter left to restore. I have no idea what they plan on doing about all the port and docks facilities. Let alone what is going to happen to all the displaced poor people of New Orleans.

However the unthinkable must be considered. New Orleans may not be able to be saved. At what price will the economical cost be so prohibited that the rebuilding of New Orleans will no longer be viable? Considering that if New Orleans can be rebuilt without bankrupting the country there is still a very good possibility that another category 4 or even worse a category 5 hurricane can destroy the city once again.

If New Orleans is to be rebuilt we will have to adopt the Dutch system of a series of dikes levees to protect the New’er’ Orleans. At what cost will that be? Can this country afford it?

These are very serious questions we must answer. I don’t have the answers, I wish I did.

1st Sep 2005, 20:46
RIP to all those that was not looked after by your goverment. :mad:

Amazing how quickly a tradegy can become a " Third World Look - alike" :sad:

And Bush says they are doing enough ... :mad:

1st Sep 2005, 20:50
On the news here today that the Dutch government has assembled and put on stand-by a sizeable team of water management and levee experts and have offered the services of this team to the USA.
The team would be able to to give accurate advice on the feasability of draining what is now the larger lake P plus how to secure a future New Orleans.

Dutch government is awaiting a response from Washington if they want the team to come over.

1st Sep 2005, 20:53
Yip ask the Dutch - the experts on this field :ok:

1st Sep 2005, 21:32
Fats Domino??


1st Sep 2005, 22:03
Good to hear that some NOPD guys are allowing looting of "essential items" by those who have lost everything, (i.e. shoes, clothing, food stuffs etc.) - sounds reasonable to me if all you have left is what you're standing up in. Lets face it, the insurers will write the whole lot off anyway. (Needless to say, and rightly so, that "essential items" didn't extend to electrical goods and jewellery).

Good luck y'awl - tv footage suggests you'll need every bit you can get.


West Coast
1st Sep 2005, 22:40
I agree, staples of life are community property now. A plasma screen TV on your back simply means your a thief.

In no way bashing the response of the government as I think they are doing as good a job as one can considering the scope, I however am led to a conclusion. That being you must be responsible for yourself (and of course family) in the initial stages. I live in fire and earthquake territory (lots of mountain lions around as well-thanks misguided tree huggers) Thankfully my income and priorities allow me to practice what I preach. I maintain enough water, food and other essentials for a week. All kept in a small camping trailer that will uncomfortably house the family. Next purchase will be a small generator.
I suggest to all who can to be prepared as well.

1st Sep 2005, 23:34
Same in tornado country West. We have a generator with enough power to operate our refrigerators, freezer and the lights (cannot run the air conditioner system however, need a lot bigger generator for that). It is a real must in this part of the woods. Same with canned foods and bottled water for at least a couple of weeks. I also recommend keeping around $5,000.00 in cash handy.

tony draper
1st Sep 2005, 23:58
Very moving post on another website by a pilot who flew his Citation into MSV yesterday to medivac two patients out, he says its even worse than the news is showing.
Its hard to believe that a coutnry like the USA probably the best in the world at organising anything could have been caught out like this.

2nd Sep 2005, 00:02
:( Fats Domino

..."aint that a shame.."


2nd Sep 2005, 02:16
:\ :\ OOp soz wrong thread.

2nd Sep 2005, 02:46
Just wanted to add my thoughts, prayers and condolences to those in NO and the Prooners with friends and family there.

I've never visited the city, and probably never will, but we share the same humanity and the same planet.

In the words of Sting - how fragile we are.

2nd Sep 2005, 03:00
Rescued people have been dumped at the Convention Center and Superdome and have been left without food and water for days.

A healthy adult can survive several days without food -- not that many without water in 90F heat.

Some have taken to foot to walk out. Others have stolen a vehicle and have been allowed to pass by the police.

One diabetic young woman died in an officer's arms.

The weaker are beginning to die.

There's not much time left before the healthy will be forced to drink floodwater.

Some local officials have called the lack of food and water a "National Disgrace"

There's a big hue and cry to send in some 40,000 troops to establish order. Field kitchens would do even better.

2nd Sep 2005, 03:11
Reports are out that Fats Domino was rescued and helicoptered to safety. He's walking from New Orleans now.

Do you think Fats' R & B had a more positive impact on the social fabric than the HipHop/Gangsta Rap we seem to prefer today?

West Coast
2nd Sep 2005, 04:03
The area of devastation according to Mike Chertoff (sp) covers 80,000 sq miles. By my very rough numbers, an area half the size of the UK.

2nd Sep 2005, 04:08
The US sent in medical and food aid in response to the tsunami last year. Where is the international response to this disaster on US soil? Where is Germany? Where is France? Where is the UK? It seems the US is expected to provide international support but should be prepared to expect nothing in return...


2nd Sep 2005, 04:43
Just reading the horrifying reports of the conditions in the Superdome. There were shootings? Killings? Two children were raped? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Mother of God, how can this be? All I can do is agree with Lance Murdoch here; I despair when I read about some of the f*wits I have to share this planet with. I have to turn away from the darker side of mankind lest I fall into a pit from which I will never escape. :(

2nd Sep 2005, 05:51
Sniper fire halts hospital evacuation (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html)

It's been three days since the hurricane. I see the scum haven't wasted any time...

S2A Pictures
2nd Sep 2005, 07:46
Ozzy -

Where is Germany? Where is France? Where is the UK? It seems the US is expected to provide international support but should be prepared to expect nothing in return...

I am sure that when your government asks for help, it will arrive.
Help has already been offered by many nations and you are a little too quick off the mark to critisise them. Those who suffered the Tsnunami do not have the same infrastructure as the US - let alone the cash, the machinery, the capability. You have a population of over 295 million and have the technology to put a man on the moon.

The general crime-wave that is sweeping across the Gulf Coast is simply human beings doing what humans beings do - trying to survive. Images of distress and suffering caused by natural disasters are pumped into our homes from all corners of the world. It shocks us and we get angry. Now it's happened in the US so at least give Uncle Sam the chance to 'go figure' ... what the resucers have to deal with on the Gulf Coast is of enormous proportions.

Until Dubya fires off a distress flare, then it is rather difficult to understand why the largest, richest most powerful nation on the planet is unable to deal with this.

2nd Sep 2005, 07:52
Yes! France, Germany, and UK should have allready sent drinking water to superdome refugees........( or better:prepared stocks on the spot so there should have been no shortage)

They should have forecast long ago and supplied reinforcements for the too fragile levees........

But, you know........ USA are an independant state............and it's only yesterday that US Government has announced his acceptance of foreign help and supplies.
(I remember the day of 9/11 when French firemen offered assistance with special crews trained for research of survivors under destroyed buildings, and this was refused.....)

2nd Sep 2005, 08:17

2nd Sep 2005, 08:31
You only have to look at the disasters,
both natural and man made, in Africa to see exactly this type of anarchy break out.

tall and tasty
2nd Sep 2005, 08:40
I have watched this unfold on the national news and the ABC footage and still can't believe what I am watching. I know natural disasters do not differentiate between third world one of the riches nations or where it strikes, but this is unbelievable.

My deepest sympathize to those involved both loosing friends and families and all the emergency services who are clearly struggling to even make a dent in a disaster such as this. For a country that should have the facilities to cope on the door step it still is frightening how it is struggling. It highlights why the aid that is sent to third world disasters takes so long to filter to the areas where it is needed most.

Using helis to airlift out injuryed and those stranded would not a large chinook be better than airlifting 5-7 at a time? Or am I showing my total ignorance here?


2nd Sep 2005, 08:42
I was watching CNN yesterday evening & I must say I was somewhat perplexed (apart from being stunned at the situation in general).

The US is not exactly short of a helicopter or two; why aren't these poor people being airlifted? Food & water in, people out on the return leg. I know there's a lot people to move, but it really seems as if nothing much is being done!

I also firmly believe the military are the only ones who can sort this out. Martial law needs to be declared in the area asap.

I wouldn't call it "no balls", I'd call it being totally unprepared, too much burocracy, too much general head scratching, too little action.

Edit: Just picked this up on BBC

US troops, armed with a shoot-to-kill policy, are being sent to New Orleans to quell growing lawlessness, four days after Hurricane Katrina hit.

2nd Sep 2005, 09:10
All it says to me is that we, humanity, are all the same. There is no "civility scale" or moral high ground. Given a large enough disaster we revert almost immediately to the deeply ingrained instincts for competitive survival.

My concern with the latest reports from the US is that protecting property may be prioritised over the rescue effort. I find this hard to justify, when people are dying of dehydration and exhaustion, what value does a new TV have?

I hope we never see this sort of event anywhere else in the world, but I know we will. Regardless of where in the world it happens, the departure from "civility" is almost immediate and the supposed standards of the people before the event are completely irrelevant.

2nd Sep 2005, 09:56
The Bush guvmints decision to to merge FEMA with Homeland Security and cut the levees spendings to a sixth of it's original budget, will come back and haunt Bush.

NYT: "Nothing about the President's demeanour yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis."

2nd Sep 2005, 09:59
This is really awful, I'm stuck here watching this unfold in Southern China, where I'm nervously watching the progress of a typhoon that struck Taiwan with a fury and is on it's way here..

Thank god I have CNN (never thouht I'd say that!)

What is really clear watching this is it's really the poor (always is) that are suffering the most. Best organisation to deal with disaters like this is the military, always has been.

God help all the victims in NO and Biloxi and all the other areas.

One of my favourite places in the world, great music, booze and food, now reduced to this.......terrible :(

Some startling things have emerged...

a) It's been claimed that no free transport was provided to evacuate the poor and that (not so surprisingly) public transport was inadequate. 1000s stayed because they could not afford to go.
b) It's been stated by the head of the relief operations that the efforts so far have been "a national disgrace". That's increasingly evident. Look at the dome where 1000s have been without water.
c) It's also been revealed by FEMA that in it's post 9/11 study, it stated that the 3 most likely disasters to affect mainland USA were:
- terrorist attack
- San Andreas earthquake
- New Orleans flooding

The government reduced the budget for building and maintaining the levees. That will hurt this administation.
Bush's own man in charge of such matters was fired after he protested at the budget cut following the FEMA report.

2nd Sep 2005, 10:40
If the purpose of the war on terror is to save lives, then nothing illustrates it's insanity greater than the aftermath of the hurricane that hit the Gulf States of America. It’s worth noting the following facts about Bush’s America in the light of the billions being spent on the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan: In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war.

No. of people killed on US soil as a result of Al-CIAda terror since 9/11 = 0. So the real purpose of this war, well see those oil prices? see your money dissappearing? see the greedy bastards get rich with their £1bn profit a month, whilst you live in perpetual denial that your leaders could never lie to you? :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Spuds McKenzie
2nd Sep 2005, 11:29
To me this whole disaster looks like the Apocalypse, where humanity goes down the drain and everyone is nearest to themselves.
The abyss of the human race is revealing itself by raping, looting and shooting.

And, as mentioned already, the poorest are at the receiving end, those who didn't have a chance to get away.


2nd Sep 2005, 12:02
BBC now reporting a series of explosions in southern part of NO, thought to be a fire at a chemical plant and possibly toxic smoke.

2nd Sep 2005, 12:19
Just saw the an interview with the mayor of New Orleans on channel 4 news. He's so right in saying that when 9/11 happened and the iraq war, all the resources needed where given straight away, Why can't that happen now, why is it taking so long for help to come into the region.
Respect to the mayor of New Orleans for saying what he really thinks about how the American governement is handling this whole situation, NOT that is....

Hope there's some light at the end of the tunnel for the people in desperate need of help.

2nd Sep 2005, 12:28
1. Is it just me, or does anyone else consider Homeland security chief Michael Chertoff less than inspirational. He persistently fails to look at the person who has asked him a question, preferring to look down towards his feet. This morning, when asked whether there were enough National Guardsmen in New Orleans, he said "Yes", then immediately said that he was ordering more in!

I only know the guy from TV, but feel someone more dynamic would be an improvement in this area!

2. Does a visit from GWB really achieve anything? How much of an interruption will it cause to the rescue effort? For instance, will aid helicopters be "grounded" whilst he is airborn? Since he feels it is just a "temporary disruption", perhaps he had better stay away!

3. Is anyone in overall control? Where is the Command & Control Centre? Looks as though each organisation is doing much of its own thing. Does FEMA have the lead, or is this a government(military) control issue?

2nd Sep 2005, 12:43
To go back to the earlier answers from the Army Corps of Engineers :

Q.2. Why did the levees fail?

A.2. What failed were actually floodwalls, not levees. This was caused by overtopping which caused scouring, or an eating away of the earthen support, which then basically undermined the wall.

These walls and levees were designed to withstand a fast moving category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a strong 4 at landfall, and conditions exceeded the design.

Q.3. Why only Category 3 protection?

A.3. That is what we were authorized to do.

So, even if all the monies had been spent and the planned work completed, the storm would have overcome the system. One of the projects which was funded and was in progress was at the 17th Street Canal - the site of the main breach on Monday.

So whether any additional funding would have prevented a collapse is open to question. Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project in 1995 - ask them why it only specified Category 3.....

2nd Sep 2005, 12:43

1) Michael who? What happend to that Ridge guy???

2) No.

3) No.

2nd Sep 2005, 12:57
Ontariotech, Tom Ridge left at the beginning of this year. His replacement was going to be Bernard Kerik(ex-NYPD), but he had "nanny" problems!

S2A Pictures
2nd Sep 2005, 13:25
Forgive me, but whenever a natural/man-made disaster occurs, the men in suits feel the need to pop by for a visit - 'to see for themselves'.

Is this entirely necessary? I thought that's what Police Chiefs and Fire Chiefs, Disaster Co-ordinators and Medical professionals were for ... to take the pressure off the good and the great - to get on with their work. If the man in the suit is going down because he's being critisised, then suck it up ... you'll face the same treatment whether you go down or not.

A man in a suit (who happens to sit behind a fat desk) is planning to turn up, surrounded by a blanket of trigger-happy security operatives. Furthermore, he is planning to visit an area where other trigger-happy police officers and national guardsmen (now safetly protected by a 'shoot-to-kill' policy) are already jumpy and vastly overstretched.

Although the 'men in suits' are duty-bound to visit disaster areas to show that they care (especially on the evening news), why not wait a while? Give it until after the weekend when, let's hope, there will be a little less pressure on those poor people (victims and rescue teams), have been taken to dryer/safer areas with food, water and better medical facilities.

Another layer of high-security in a hot area like the Gulf Coast, for a man in a suit, is the last thing that area needs right now.

Stay at home and eat pretzels Dubya ... spend the weekend being informed of developments by the Police Chiefs, Fire Chiefs, Disaster Co-ordinators and Medical professionals you already employ ... huh, bubbba?

Kalium Chloride
2nd Sep 2005, 13:44
The abyss of the human race is revealing itself by raping, looting and shooting

I'm inclined to agree Spuds.

As much as I wouldn't wish the hurricane and its aftermath on anyone, I'm rapidly losing sympathy with New Orleans because of the disgusting animalistic lawlessness which seems to be spreading there.

This is the USA - which, if I'm not mistaken, is currently trying to convince certain parts of the world that it's the beating heart of civilised behaviour.

Instead its inhabitants appear to be taking the present situation as the first convenient excuse to go around like a pack of whooping hyenas, demonstrating the appalling lack of consideration and respect that I'd expect to see in the darkest corners of a Third World war zone.

2nd Sep 2005, 13:47
Ozzy, my friend of darkness, let me shine some light into your world -

This is of CNN.

Just an example:

Germany also said it would offer aid or money if requested by Washington, though officials said the U.S. was well equipped to deal with natural disasters. (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/02/katrina.world/index.html)

Others such as France and England have made similar offers only to be turned down.

So Ozzy, when you wrote:
It seems the US is expected to provide international support but should be prepared to expect nothing in return...

How far did you stuck your head up your :mad: ?

2nd Sep 2005, 13:56
Kalium Chloride, you've probably enunciated the unspoken fears of quite a few people in your post. My first reaction on being made aware of the scale of the disaster was to wonder how to contribute something towards the recovery program.

I have always been gravely suspicious of the amount of foreign aid that gets to its intended targets when we talk about poverty-stricken but corrupt third world countries. Call it what you like, racism, elitism, whatever, but I initially felt much safer with the concept of donating to an American disaster relief fund.

Now I'm so horrified at the depths of depravity being exposed in a supposedly civilised society that... well, you called it losing patience, and that's not far wrong. I don't want any of my money helping these scum.

2nd Sep 2005, 13:57

If you care to check it....that segment of the population (in general) were not far from being Third World in their conduct before the Hurricane. Do a google search for crime statistics and you might have your eyes opened in regard to that as well.

Murder, rape, robbery, burgalry, and theft is not a new concept amongst that segment of the population.

The only thing that keeps them some what in check is the presence of good citizens and the police. Needless to say....that positive element has been removed and now anarchy exists and the criminal element of New Orleans society is free to do what they do best.....prey upon others who are unable to defend themselves.

Summary execution seems more attractive now for some reason.

Binos....you are off base there.....do give...give to known reputable charities...it will get to those that need it. I reccommend the Salvation Army....I know them to be very dedicated to helping the needy....unlike the Red Cross who seem to have one hell of an overhead budget and seem to seek the publicity. The only time I have seen the Salvation Army appear to seek air-time was when they looked up from the stove or foodline and thank those who had made it possible. No press conferences for them like the Red Cross likes to put on.


2nd Sep 2005, 13:58
from the blogsphere:

"My coworker's brother is one of seven doctors who have been left behind at Touro Hospital. His name is Vinroot, I'm sorry, I don't know the first name. He is in a panic--the doctors have barricaded themselves on the seventh floor because armed gunmen are outside threatening them and demanding access to the roof so they can be rescued first. He is desperate. Someone needs to help these people NOW!"

I got a call from my sis-in-law, Vicki, just now. There are 3-4 adults with her, one with severe asthma and no medications. They tried to get out by boat yesterday, but then got shot at by looters. Vicki is calling around to see if anyone has any resources to help, and she was hoping someone might have a contact or an idea. If you would kindly forward this to anyone you know that is in or was in the National Guard, military, etc.. They are on the deck of a house waving a red flag between South Claiborne and Willow.

There are 7 people trapped in the Gallary Row apartments at 448 Julia Street (corner of Julia and Magazine). They were attacked by armed gang who hijacked their truck and drove it through a locked gate in the parking garage. They are unable to leave the building due to the heavy presence of large, well-organized armed looters. They expect the building to be attacked at any moment.

Apolyptical scenes...

2nd Sep 2005, 14:05
Those supplementary military personnel being brought in may have more to do with protecting you know who...?! :rolleyes:

Whatever, I hope it won't mean trigger-happy GIs shooting "looters" who are only looking for food, clothing and water. :sad: So what if there are others taking away 42" Plasma TV sets? Who's going to be buying them anytime soon? It'd be a real shame if people were mistakenly shot.

Someone please confirm that the ICE being distributed out there that features in so many reports is really an acronym for some form of emergency ration?! They're not really distributing "frozen water" are they...?! :\

S2A Pictures
2nd Sep 2005, 14:51

Those supplementary military personnel being brought in may have more to do with protecting you know who...?!

err ... just whom did you think I was referring?

The Banana Splits comeback tour?

2nd Sep 2005, 14:51
They're not really distributing "frozen water" are they...?!

Yip they are ... that is America mate :E

So CNN / BBC / SKY / FOX / BBC / ABC / XYZ ... you name it can get to the worst places to bring us the worst news ... how do they get there / drive around ?

but ...

Not a SINGLE ambulance / bus / relief vehicle in these areas ...

Amazing ..

Drop your heads in shame bas:mad: 's !

2nd Sep 2005, 15:04
Crystal Springs sends a tanker truck equipped with some score of fountain spouts to various fairs and airshows here in Ontario.

It could have been down there by now if asked -- that's if there's no other similar equipment between Ontario and NO:rolleyes:

2nd Sep 2005, 15:05
S2A, I proffer my humblest apologies...

One banana, two banana, three banana, four... ;)

Anyway, what's the property market like out on the US Gulf Coast these days? Prices have been pretty flat around here, the market needs a little more liquidity IMHO, that's all... :\

2nd Sep 2005, 15:11
A (shattered) SA friend just mailed me. They had a dream holiday planned for years next year June to NO and surrounds with music lovers etc ..

They just cancelled it all ... the man is shattered - a dream he always wanted but most probably will be left as just a dream.


2nd Sep 2005, 15:30
In defense of ice - it melts rapidly in that climate and may be easier to distribute than bottled water.

An organization I belong to has its annual meeting scheduled for Lafayette, LA, six weeks from now. We are about to cancel since we expect the hotel to be full of refugees.

2nd Sep 2005, 16:04
I would recommend listening to the WWL interview of N.O. Mayor Ray Nagin regarding lack of federal help, you can get to it via the CNN web site. Click "Watch Mayor: Get of your asses." Finally I have been entirely impressed by a politician. Fairplay to him.

2nd Sep 2005, 16:36
That interview with N.O. mayor Ray Nagin with all the cussin' is going to go down as one of the greatest "from the heart" speeches made by any US politician in recorded history... :ok: Ray used them all: doggone, frigging, goddamned... :O

His most poignant remarks after he'd calmed down somewhat went something like this: "God (he didn't need to add the American people), is looking down on us...those...not doing everything in their power to save people...they will pay the price...!

GWB: byebye!
Iraq: byebye!
Republicans: byebye!
Hilary: Hello?! ;) :uhoh:

2nd Sep 2005, 17:16
Not so fast, Airship.

What brought New Orleans to this Mad Max nightmare is payback for decades of tolerance for criminal behavior, poor education, welfare state economics, no moral compass to instill values in everyday people, lack of personal accountability - all manifested in any large American city. This could happen anywhere in urban America.

Sad commentary on what we have allowed to insidiously take contol of our urban jungles. Every major American city is run by Democrats. How can you point to Hilary as the solution?

I do fault the Bush administration for not anticipating the forseeable anarchy and not getting troops in immediately. But he didn't create this mess. We all did.

tony draper
2nd Sep 2005, 17:22
Willing to bet there will be no shortage of Lawyers flocking thither,(when it safe of course) one senses a lot of people and organisations having their arses sued off over this debacle.

2nd Sep 2005, 17:26
The world could do with a few more politicians like that man.

Respect is most certainly due.

2nd Sep 2005, 17:34
right, I can see the point of stealing water and food.
I can see the point of stealing jewelry.
I can see the point of flat screens you'd never afford
I can understand nicking guns and ammo
but what is the :mad: point of shooting at a rescue helicopter

like christ.... f:mad: ing morons

2nd Sep 2005, 17:37
Airship, Hello?? By by??? People are getting in New Orleans what they voted for, as in fact we all do anywhere.

If the New Orleans administration did not prepare themselves adequately for the worst case scenario then it will be immediately visible in the aftermath. The fact that it is very much worse than imagined doesn't help, however for at least three days prior to Katrina hitting land they had been predicting it would hit New Orleans smack on. What were they doing during that time?

Sorry Cas no respect for cussing after the event. Action before would get respect not shouting and screaming afterwards.

The fact remains it is a tragedy as all these events are, but shouting screaming and name calling do little. Coping with what has happened is what a lot of people are doing but I have also heard people going on and on about things that simply are not possible to alter instead of simply zeroing in on what can be done.

tall and tasty
2nd Sep 2005, 17:39
Got an email from a friend in Pensicola where they were not affected but they have seen their own hurricanes in the past.

it was the strangest email to read from someone who was envolved with friends who have been affected. He survived the hit on the White House and he has actually stated that the US people are actually saying this is 100 times worse then that with the whole country in shock not knowing what to do or how to react. Maybe this is one of the reasons why aid is taking so long, people just don't believe it has happened in their country!

But the general consensis is that the military seem more keen on stopping looting while people are dying of not having enough drugs, fresh water etc. I would not want to be in the Presidents shoes and when the Insurance claims start to say the president did not do enough to save so and so it is going to cost the US even more than Bush could ever imagine.

This is the country where boys can divorce their parents and sue them for misconduct and not bringing them up properly so who is to say this will not open a whole can of worms!!!


S2A Pictures
2nd Sep 2005, 17:45
I have just listened to the full 12 minutes+ of the radio interview.
The man puts some seriously valid points across - even if he does loose it - he was entitiled to.

Listen to all of it ... every last word. Poor sods indeed.

Paterbrat - "no respect for cussing after the event. Action before would get respect not shouting and screaming afterwards"

Afterwards? AFTERWARDS? It's still going on!

The mayor is simply doing what he can and raising the stakes somewhat to rustle feathers and get something done. After all, HE is in the middle of it and we are not ...

Tell us, what would you do in his position ... take your time ... we're all listening ...

2nd Sep 2005, 17:46
I was under the impression that the mayor was himself asking for troops to preven anarchy because relief efforts are being hindered by armed looters.

You first S2 unless you think cussing and screaming is helping.

S2A Pictures
2nd Sep 2005, 18:09
Dear Paterbrat, there's no point knocking my invitation back at me as that's not how it goes. If you were desparate, what would you do?

Hold the phone - you just answered it.

Anyway, moving on ...

The mayor did what no politician should do - loose it. However, I believe (and so do others) that it needed to be said. Good on him.

I also notice that Dubya just made a statement infront of 3 SAR helios ... thought they were short of helios? But hang on, their crews were gathered around the noses of said SARs ... if these machines were servicable ... err, off you go boys?

Anything for a photo op bubba ...

2nd Sep 2005, 19:03
I would like to make a comment about the snide remarks concerning the massive shipments of ice into New Orleans and other affected areas of the Gulf Coast.

Daytime average temperature 95-98f (27-30c), 95-100% humidity.

In case you are unaware of this small fact perishable food spoil rather rapidly under theses conditions. There are medicines that people depend on to stay alive that must be kept cool. The best way to cool down heatstroke victims is place ice bags and ice packs on certain areas on their bodies.

That is why the ice is so desperately needed for disaster areas that have been disseminated by hurricane Katrina.

And if there is some ice left over, the mental boost of having an ice cold soda, glass of ice water or even an ice cold beer is fantastic.

One other note; I am watching President Bush on TV right now and he was asked why he has turned down foreign aid and help and his reply was that he had heard those rumors and that he has NOT turned down any offer of help from anyone, foreign or domestic. Now that was straight from the man’s mouth live on TV.

Again I would like to thank all (well except for a few) of my fellow ppruners for their kind thoughts over this ongoing tragedy.

AL Junk, have you ever heard of the word “logistics”? Do you know the meaning?

2nd Sep 2005, 19:38
Sorry Cas no respect for cussing after the event. Action before would get respect not shouting and screaming afterwards. Huh! And I suppose that you'd do better with your patronising tone and lofty finger-waving, eh Paterbrat? :hmm:

2nd Sep 2005, 19:40

Do you ever give it a rest? What caused your obsession with Bush and do you really think he is responsible for all that is going on in New Orleans?

I think this is about so much more than partisan politics. We have a lot of introspection to do here in the US. It's a time to pull together and heal the wounds, not time to look for political blaming.

The immediate survival situation seems to be easing and control over the streets is at hand. Now we can begin the long process of resettlement, responding to the implications on the economics of mass dislocation, and of rebuilding of the energy infrastructure and transportation system hubbed at NO. It's going to be a long and testing process.

I'm going to support the nuts and bolts people who know what needs to be done and will set about doing it. I have no time for ideologues making absurd charges relating this tragedy to Kyoto or any political charges against either Bush, or the mayors and governors of the jurisdictions involved. At this point politics just gets in the way.

2nd Sep 2005, 19:44
I'm going to support the nuts and bolts people who know what needs to be done and will set about doing it.Quite right too, BenThere.

But aren't quite a lot of them in the Middle East just now? :confused:

2nd Sep 2005, 19:45

Imagine the sheer magnitude of the logistics at play here. Close on to a million homeless...no electricity over three states...an area much goddamned bigger than the entire UK....bridges down...highways blocked, train lines destroyed....fuel supplies destroyed....no communications beyond a few emergency and military systems. No refrigeration...no food supplies forthcoming if for no more reason than it is physically impossible to get them in to the area...or distributed.

Until you have found yourself in such a situation you can have no idea what it is like. I have been involved in several of these in the past....and it is much different than reading about it on the net or setting on your ass in front of the Telly with a beer in your hand.

Combine the hurricane damage due to the wind and storm surge...and combine that with the flooding and it makes for a real mess.

We hurt seeing the folks stranded at the football stadium....now think about it taking 5,000 buses to cart them away....away to where? I challenge you to organize that little convoy...find the buses, get the routing done, obtain security for the area....fuel for the buses...food and shelter for everyone involved....and do so in 72 hours. Just where you going to bus them to...and be able to provide shelter, food, clothing, medical care?

Bluntly....get yer head out of your ass!

There is a time to be cute and prattle about arguing politics but in this case people are dead, dying, and completely destitute in very much the same manner as the Tsunami.....why the bile and bullshit partner?

Delta is ready when you are....hope aboard and fly over here...roll up your sleeves and give a helping hand. Put some of your liberal luvvie beliefs to practice. Give of yourself to others in real need.

I don't care a wit how much you hate George Bush or things American but the people that are suffering in Alabama, Mississippi, and Lousiana are just as human as the ones in Indonesia and Thailand of just a few months ago.

Mods....if this post offends your sensitivities....I would suggest you might take a moment to consider just what is being said and suggested by the various posters. A real human tragedy is taking place and a bunch of smartasses are saying things that are absolutely offensive to some of us.

A great many of us volunteered our services as pilots and engineers....cargo handlers and such for the Tsunami relief and sent financial assistance. It would seem fair to me that the shoe is on the other foot and just maybe at the very minimum they ought to have the courtesy of at least merely sending their condolences and prayers if they are no interested in doing anything to help. To have to read such drivel as Lima and some of the others have put out just flat pisses me off.

2nd Sep 2005, 19:47
Swearing is neither big nor clever, SASless....... :rolleyes:

2nd Sep 2005, 20:01
On this occasion I think SASless in entitled to his rant, he makes many good points.

2nd Sep 2005, 20:02
SASLess' comments are very much reflective of how I feel as well. Profanity offends some, but at times there is a place for it. There is a lot of anger to go around, and at times like this, the constant badgering of America and its government can get even the most patient person's back up.

Caslance, there are iindeed a lot of needed people in Iraq. You may be right that the US can no longer sustain the level of its extensive commitments abroad. We've got some retrenching to do as I think Katrina is showing itself to have been a watershed event we are just beginning to realize. We're in interesting and trying times, and we can't afford to do all we would like and have to assess our priorities.

I want to mention admiration and appreciation for Chancellor Shroeder, the Dutch, the French, and all the world citizens looking beyond the politics of the day to respond to the US in this hour of need.

2nd Sep 2005, 20:12

No attempt at being either big or clever....just expressing myself in a manner that I feel is appropriate although ungentlemanly...but I have never really claimed that title nor did the Congress deign to make me one.....I was a US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot. We are not known for our diplomacy or polished manners....but we are known for standing up for what we believe in and don't hesitate to state our views.

I would suggest my language is far less offensive than some of the thoughts offered up here in the past few days. That is the point of my post. Was I unclear in any part of it that might need expounding upon to clear up any misconceptions you might have of what I said or meant?

News Article....

More than a dozen passenger airlines and their crews volunteered to provide emergency airlift to more than 25,000 New Orleans residents stranded after Hurricane Katrina.

They are Alaska Airlines, America West, American Airlines, ATA, Continental, Delta Air Lines, Jet Blue, Northwest, Southwest, United, US Airways and Air Canada.

Cargo carriers, including UPS, FedEX and ASTAR Air Cargo are also helping out.

Hundreds of private pilots have contacted their trade group, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, asking what they can do to help, said Chris Dancy, AOPA spokesman.

Some pilots have set up a shuttle service out of Baton Rouge, La., to evacuate high-risk people to Texas. Others are flying damage-assessment missions over the damaged region and bringing in critical supplies.

A pilot in Louisville, Ky., is recruiting pilots to work with a group called Vacation Rentals for Families.com that is finding people who will open their vacation homes to Katrina evacuees.

Care to donate.....these folks were setting up kitchens before the storm hit and are there now....it costs them $60,000 per truck load to buy, truck, and distribute food and water. They are all vounteers.

absc.org. Arkansas Baptist State Convention

2nd Sep 2005, 20:42
There is a lot of anger to go around, and at times like this, the constant badgering of America and its government can get even the most patient person's back up.I hear what you say, BenThere.

But isn't it the case that the overwhelming bulk of the "badgering" is coming from within the USA at the moment rather than from overseas?

2nd Sep 2005, 20:44
I had reason to post this diatribe earlier on today in a JB Mods "sticky" which contained a link to the American Red Cross and invited debate on the situation but which has since been removed:

Just a quick "off-the-cuff" reaction which will probably get me into trouble (again): Here goes, from the BBC... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4207202.stm) :O President Bush, who is to visit the disaster zone, has requested $10.5bn (£5.7bn) emergency funds from Congress. The Senate approved the initial aid and the House of Representatives is expected to back the move within the next 24 hours, to fund rescue and relief efforts in coming weeks. The USA is the World's richest nation. There are about 300 million Americans. GDP per person is somewhere in the region of $40,000 at PPP. Katrina's victims don't need our money. The USA doesn't need our money. Katrina's victims need help right now that can only be provided by their government or their own fellow citizens.

Obviously, I'm assuming that the $10.5 billion in emergency spending will be distributed equitably. And not mainly just go towards getting the oil production companies and port facilities operational as soon as possible.

Katrina represents a great opportunity to demonstrate the unique qualities of the American people that so many expound and hold up as an example to the rest of the World. I have little doubt that the thousands of refugees currently being transferred out to the Houston astrodome will only be there for a matter of days until your average US family decide to open up hearth and home and take in every last one. If half of the displaced people can rely on their families / friends, that only leaves 200-250,000 left to depend on complete strangers. It'd be the Christian thing to do too... :ok:

I have yet to read anything here which would lead me to alter my somewhat flippant earlier remarks.

Anyway, this BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4204066.stm) page has links to many aid agencies operating out there.

tony draper
2nd Sep 2005, 20:52
As I understand it from newsnight last night the 10.5 billion is to cover the next ten days only, GW will be asking for a lot more than that, the cost thus far was estimated at 500 million a day.

2nd Sep 2005, 20:53
It has been very interesting watching the new coverage of President Bush’s tour of the affected areas of the Gulf Coast. President Bush is in a no-win situation here, there are about as many people (the all knowing TV news luvvies) that have criticized Bush for going to the area as there have been complaining that he should have go there sooner.

I guess that it shows that Bush can’t win no matter what he does.

I am now waiting for the President to speak live from New Orleans. He said in Biloxi that the Federal response was NOT acceptable.

Some good news in all the bad, apparently the downtown business district and the French Quarter has come all of this rather untouched by looters, vandals and arsonists. Maybe New Orleans can be saved after all, let’s hope so.Airship, thanks for that post, I know that we Americans can and will rise to this occasion. We have done so in the past and will continue to do in the future. It is just the overwhelming magnitude of the double tragedy that has hit New Orleans. First a category 4 hurricane followed by massive flooding whose water will not or rather cannot drain away.

There have been some people here that are curious as to why New Orleans was not evacuated before Katrina hit New Orleans. Well the simple reason is that in the United States the government, local or federal, by law cannot force people to leave their homes. Even though the Mayor on New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana ordered a ‘mandatory’ evacuation of New Orleans Sunday morning it is still a voluntary evacuation. Only by declaring ‘martial law’ after a disaster can any area of the United States will people be forced to leave their home or property by force. Even then there will the small segment of any population that will remain behind in hiding to loot and commit mayhem.

By the way ‘damn’ good post SAS.:ok:

Spuds McKenzie
2nd Sep 2005, 21:07
Bush is in a no-win situation
Not a first for him...


2nd Sep 2005, 21:13
He said in Biloxi that the Federal response was NOT acceptable.Can he really disassociate himself from the Federal response in that way?

Surely as President he has emergency powers available to him that would allow him to take charge and oversee the Federal response if he felt that it was not up to scratch?

2nd Sep 2005, 21:25
I am totally disgusted, appalled and all the other words you know at the appalling lack of reaction from the US of A - my country- to the awful situation in the south.

This in no way is intended to denigrate the supreme and sometimes futile efforts of the local states but where - oh where- is the support from the COUNTRY?

We can put men on the over-hyped moon, launch and recover the shuttle, but can Washington organise food, water and transport for the suffering people?

No! I have lost friends and watched the terrible lack of organisation. Dubya will blame the governors, I know it - heads will roll. But - where is the US of A in all this? It has taken more than 4 days to get 'outside' aid into the area (outside = US). It makes the response to the Asian Tsunami look well organised. Bush 'waits' until the aid convoys roll in before he 'visits'.

The largest disaster since 9/11, and no-one to blame? Let's attack the Caribbean - they launched the hurricane.............

2nd Sep 2005, 21:28
Cas, it is true that as President he does have ‘Executive Powers’ that he can use to cut through the red tape. However, even then it still takes time due simply because of logistics. It takes time to arrange the massive numbers of trucks, aircraft (including helicopters) and busses that are required to move all the supplies and people to respond to any problem, let alone a disaster of the magnitude that has hit New Orleans.

Basically that is what Bush did Tuesday when the realization of how big the disaster was that hit the Gulf Coast became evident. Today we are seeing massive amount of troops and supplies heading to and arriving in New Orleans. Even prior to today was were over 1,200 National Guardsmen going into New Orleans every day.

First we must handle the emergency, and then we can play the blame game. As all the pilots here in pprune know, the first thing to do in an emergency is to fly the airplane, then handle the problem.

2nd Sep 2005, 21:33
I have some small experience in disaster recovery planning for central Government so I understand that too, con-pilot.

I just don't see how President Bush can disassociate himself from the Federal emergency response. Surely the ultimate responsibility lies with the office of the President?

Note that I refer to the office and not the individual, by the way.

2nd Sep 2005, 21:41
I just listened to GWB speaking before leaving the White House for his trip darn sarf:

"...a lot of aid surging towards those who've been affected..." Loved the use of surge there George :ok:

"...millions of gallons of water, millions of tonnes of food..." That's great George, but millions of tonnes of food is probably over-doing it a lil bit don't you think? Just 10-20,000 tonnes should be enough for the next week or so if it could be got to the right place. He'd be funny if only he wasn't President. :(

Darth Nigel
2nd Sep 2005, 21:49
The other evacuation issue is the means to evacuate. A lot of the people "left behind" after the order to evacuate had neither transportation nor money to buy a ticket out. AFAIK the word was given "thou shalt evacuate or thou art fecked"; not "Get yer arse on this bus, it's the last helicopter out of Saigon". Indeed, many tourists were stranded in hotels because they were there past the point when there was any way to get out of the city.

The level of poverty especially in the Southern US is really quite remarkable for what is a very rich country (an observation, not a shot). Now I'm not claiming that all the folks who stayed were too poor to get out, there were many that fell into that category however.

The other observation about the whole Katrina devastation is that except in NOLA things got better/stopped getting worse once the storm had passed. In New Orleans, the storm passed and then the levee/slipwall/breakwater/thing to keep the water out failed, and the situation continued to get worse. Now you have a logistical nightmare where not only has the physical infrastructure collapsed (phones, power, water, sewage. transportation, food...) but now the social infrastructure has collapsed as predicted in such circumstances. It's going to be quite a while before things are sorted out. We are seeing reports of food being dropped and grabbed by the young anf the fit -- it starts to look like Mogadishu but wetter!

The media isn't helping much -- shots of screaming black faces being held back by uniformed armed troops, various idiots on all news channels (and one assumes the Fox "News" channel too) playing the blame game, and the "why didn't we..." and scoring points in ways that make us PPRuNers look like the amateurs we are.

Me, I'd say, "OK, you want to drive in and take pictures -- fine. Bring in at least this much food, and be prepared to carry out at least this many people." They had some fat cnut on CNN last night who was being interviewed back at Atlanta talking about the devastation and how long it took him to drive out of the city with the flooding, the debris, the refugees... and they even had footage of really miserable people looking at the camera. I wonder how many people could have been carried on the TV truck -- it might have looked like a bus coming out of Nairobi, and you might have had to dump some replaceable electronics to make room for them, but so what?

2nd Sep 2005, 22:04

What are you missing here....think about it...real carefully...real slowly...work your way through this....the President...not the office but the man....the POTUS hisself in person...on international television....LIVE Caslance.....said....as you quoted him....the response was NOT ACCEPTABLE. He did not say the locals screwed it up....he did not say the states screwed it up...he did not say the Feds screwed it up....but he did say it was going to be fixed. He claimed ownership of that response....all of it by saying that Caslance.....or did you go get a beer while that was going on.

He is wise enough to understand that fingerpointing is not the answer.....but I can bet you dollars to donuts and you can hold the stakes in your mouth.....there is some some serious President to lesser others....explaining just why this will get unscrewed and the penalty for not getting the job done fast.

Mississippi is the poorest state in the country....always has been...always will be....Lousiana is probably the most corrupt place in the country....always has been and always will be....New Orleans is not the garden spot it is thought to be....never has been and who knows what the future holds for them now.

There is plenty of blame to go around....and I dare say George Bush does not deserve anywhere near the pummelling he is getting. The situation that led to this disaster has been a long time developing.....and it is the local and state politicians that should rightfully carry the bucket over this....along with the Federal FEMA folks....but that is a long way down the ol' Totem Pole from the POTUS.

2nd Sep 2005, 22:13
1. The dikes / floodwalls were designed (or perhaps evaluated) to withstand cat 3 hurricane.

2. When the approaching Katrina was considered cat 5, Louisiana officials correctly mandated evacuation. Close to a million probably complied.

3. The storm was cat 4 when it arrived at the coast. Damage was as predicted.

4. The ones who did not (or could not) evacuate were living in the dream world of Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" (or its later incarnations) in which the government cared for one cradle-to-grave. They discovered what this really meant.

There were no surprises this week.

2nd Sep 2005, 22:19
To be quite frank, i think a lot of it is to do (5 words all two letters):p is the way GWB portrays himself..that smile, yet empty,vacant look...

...still he has turned rather grey recently...

2nd Sep 2005, 23:26
Oh dear, SASless..... you really are scraping the barrel these days aren't you?

If it were Gore or Kerry in power now you'd be at the head of the lynch-mob and don't dare insult our intelligence by pretending otherwise. :rolleyes:

Moving on to the real world.......

Given that quite a lot of New Orleans is actually below sea level and well below the high water level of the Mississippi, and given that another Katrina could come barelling along at any time (that's how chaotic systems like the weather work), wouldn't it make more sense to flatten the place and rebuild the city somewhere more sensible?

Like above sea level, perhaps?

2nd Sep 2005, 23:33
SASless once again you hit a nail right on the head.

And Cas, if my two lines were lofty finger waving your sense of balance is out of wack, besides my good man, your finger is moving around pretty high through the thread right now.

There is an ongoing situation and right now people all over America are moving in to help. Things are being done, my sons store from Houston sent aid and volunteers down immediately but were asked to back by authorities untill an assesment was made of what was needed. Transport out seems a high priority and refugees are coming into Houston right now with many groups all over getting help and aid of various kinds together. There is a big move to help from all sections and ordinary citzens are pulling together. The press is doing what is needed and people all over the country are getting a look and seeing for themselves what has happened. and is responding without a big fanfare.

Darth if you see people looting that is because they are looting. I have also seen people quietly getting on with sorting things out down there as well in those same newscasts.

2nd Sep 2005, 23:34
You reckon so, Paterbrat?

Gosh, however will I sleep tonight? :hmm:

2nd Sep 2005, 23:36
Homeland Security has been GWB's marqee policy initiative which has produced: Lots of Ineffectual Bureaucracy
Seriously Delayed Delivery resulting in survivors dying of thirst
Misplaced Priorities -- as bad as was 9/11 it only involved 16 acres and a wing of the Pentagon.
Willfull ignorance of scientific and engineering expertise that had long noted NO's vulnerability,
It has been reported that whenever evacuation of NO residents without cars was brought up in emergency planning meetings, the question was ignored.
I'm beginning to think the Administration would have found the situation easier to handle if the poor blacks had been immediately drowned instead of getting uppity about demanding food, water and shelter:mad:

2nd Sep 2005, 23:56
Terrible news from New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, the coverage of the disaster is on telivision 24hrs a day here in Sydney Australia. Our Prime Minister last night announced an immediate cash aid of $10 million Oz dollars as well as any military and civil assistance that is requested. Its also reported that up to 100 disaster specialists are on standby to travel to the US, most are veterans of the Asian tsunami of 6 months ago.

We in Oz stand ready to assist our american friends with what ever is asked.

3rd Sep 2005, 00:04
As in the case of the Asian tsunami 8 months ago, there is no real shortage of goods. The transportation infrastructure is so disrupted that delivery is the big issue.

It would have been far more effective to relocate the victims before the hurricane struck. Not enough time, you say? Seems to me we had several decades' advance warning.

With that in mind, the loss and suffering seem strangely Darwinian.

3rd Sep 2005, 00:26
In the sort of move that goes a little way towards restoring one's faith in human nature, Sri Lanka has apparently offered whatever assistance it can muster.

Fair play to them, I say. :ok:

3rd Sep 2005, 00:30
The reason so many people didn't evacuate is because they couldn't. They didn't have the means, cash or transportation to go anywhere. Add to that the hospitals and nursing homes and you'll realize the hurricane struck at the most vulnerable members of society.

Aas for Caslance saying in effect that the folks asked for it because they chose to live in a city below sea-level reminds me of the line in the movie Airplane where's they're having a talk show as the airliner screeches towards the ground and one of the guests says:

"They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. If they can't deal with this, they shouldn't have bought their tickets"


3rd Sep 2005, 00:32
Aas for Caslance saying in effect that the folks asked for it because they chose to live in a city below sea-level That's not what I said.... as you well know. :p

Shaggy Sheep Driver
3rd Sep 2005, 00:43
I'm gobsmacked. The wealthiest nation on the planet, and five days after the disaster the situation in NO goes from desperate to heaven knows what. Rape, looting, the law of the jungle (no - it's worse than that!).

Where are the helicopters? Why aren't there troops on the ground running things and keeping order? Where is the rescue operation - helos to ships on the river perhaps? Are all the Chinooks and all the navy ships and the trops in iraq?

I find it very difficult to reconcile the city I saw and enjoyed in May this year with what is going on there now.

BBC radio in UK is reporting live from the city that the situation is just getting worse and getting more and more desperate. The people are being left to their own devices while pleading with Bush 'DO SOMETHING!' These reporters that were present at the tsunami are saying that even though that was a far bigger disaster, within hours a massive rescue operation was underway.

In NO he police are riding around in armoured cars with guns pointing out the windows - not talking to the survivors. Occasionally a helicopter drops a load of supplies, and a rush of young men dash out and grab it - there is no ordered distribution, the vulnerable will get nothing, no one's on the ground other that desperate survivors and the violent. It's unbelievable when a couple of hundred miles away life goes on as usual. What *uck's going on??

Is this the best Uncle Sam can do for its people? I just can't beleive it.


3rd Sep 2005, 01:04
Watching the events unfold on CNN, I am dismayed at just how fast people can degenerate into animals. I can understand looting for food and water, I would do it myself in the same situation. But raping, killing, ambushes? Shooting at aid workers? How long until people start eating each other? 4 days is a long time without food or much water. I would like to think that 4 days is nowhere near long enough to undo years of civilisation, apparently that is not the case.
I have also noticed that there is a lot less talk on CNN about 'we are Americans so we will stick together and be strong and survive this better than any other nation could'.

I was caught up in the hurricanes in Florida last year. When you get warning after warning after warning, it is hard to give each one the gravity that it deserves. I imagine most of the people stuck in NO have lived with hurricanes most of their lives. The worst case scenario is always broadcast and never eventuates. Now it has.
What amazed me last year was how long it took to get the power and water back on. What amazed me more was the people getting angry when going to get water and supplies. Not all of the stations had ice, just bottled water. the radio was advising people where there was ice. Those ones had many people waiting and naturally ran out of everything. Other aid stations had next to no people there, because they had no ice.

SASless : it costs them $60,000 per truck load to buy, truck, and distribute food and water. They are all vounteers.

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't that quite expensive?

3rd Sep 2005, 02:17
The reason so many people didn't evacuate is because they couldn't. They didn't have the means, cash or transportation to go anywhere.

Not quite true newark,there are thousands of school buses which could have been used to haul out people without money or means of transportation. The buses are now sitting in water.

Survivor contact databases

* Bringing it all together:

* Wal-Mart Emergency Contact Service:

* Coast Guard: Submit a report of Missing/Stranded Person:

* Gulf Coast News Survivor Connector Database:

* National Next of Kin Registry:

* Web Sites Helping Locate Families:

* ORGANIZED LIST of missing and FOUND relatives:

* Missing Persons, Aid, Volunteers, Temp Housing - nola craigslist:

* Katrina Help Wiki:

* Hurricane Refugee Connect Site - Organized by Last Name

*Noah's Wish - Rescuing and Sheltering Animals in Disasters:

* New Orleans Hurricane Relief Fund - Donate to Save New Orleans:

* New Orleans Network:

3rd Sep 2005, 02:20
:hmm: New Orleans network

SITE UNDER REPAIR- CHECK BACK IN A COUPLE HOURS! Welcome to the New Orleans Network. This site is a tool to help people in the New Orleans and Gulf Coast area stay connected to the communities they love,

3rd Sep 2005, 02:22
That is contents....transportation....propane....water to cook with.....a truckoad will have 24-30 large pallets on the floor and double stacked will be closer to 48 pallets. The usual weight of cargo haulled will be on the order of 48,000 pounds unless they ignore the weight limitations due to the emergency. That is more than a few cans of beans.

Fuel costs alone for a run from say Ohio or some other place in the midwest to New Orleans....with fuel at over $3 per gallon now....makes fuel cost Fifty Cents per mile....that is about 800 USD for fuel alone (loads will charge round trip rates due to the lack of freight coming back north....cannot haul people in the back of trucks by law...)thus freight costs would be about 1500-1750 USD per load or more. You can rest assured the wholesale grocery warehouses are going to make their profit on the deal.

In rough terms....a normal grocery store carries about 3 days inventory.....the warehouses about 3 weeks inventory....thus when the floods hit....the grocery supply system in that part of the country was hard hit particularly around the New Orleans area thus the supplies must come from much further away than normal. The frozen goods in the bulk warehouses are spoiled by now.....due to the lack of electricity.

The nationwide effect this disaster has had is just now beginning to sink in on folks. We are in North Carolina...a very long way from New Orleans....about 1100 miles....and we are seeing fuel shortages here. Atlanta is having to face running out of supplies unless the pipelines are back in service very quickly.

Imagine the rocket scientists that did not think to put standby generators at the pipeline pump stations?

No...$60,000 is not an unusual number for a truckload of groceries delivered to New Orleans under these circumstances.

3rd Sep 2005, 02:56
Are You Prepared For Flooding?

The heavy rain in autumn of the year 2000 led to 10,000 homes and business throughout England and Wales flooding. It was the wettest Autumn for 270 years.

In many parts, especially in the south-east, which was severely affected, families are still not able to return home as the damage was so bad. In many others, they are still trying to return to normal.

As we look back on the past year, we are being urged to think ahead in case the situation is repeated. The Environment Agency say nearly half of us who are living in a flood prone area aren’t aware of the risk, and only one in ten of us takes any action to prepare for such disruption and damage.

However, there are major concerns that those of us in flood-prone areas are not taking preventative action. Chairman of the Environment Agency, Sir John Harman, says " Flooding is a real risk. It is one we know about and one that people can do something practical about. Last year’s floods were described as a ‘wake-up’ call, but there are signs that the alarm bells aren’t ringing loudly enough to trigger action by many people."


3rd Sep 2005, 03:13
I think many of you are being very unfair on Bush to be honest.

This is a catastrophic situation and the President is doing everything he can and I do mean everything to get those oil supplies running again.

Give him a chance.

3rd Sep 2005, 03:19
Just this week I watched our commander in chief, with what seemed was half a smirk, say, "I understand people are frustrated...I understand...." No George, ummm...actually they're dying.

The response IS a national disgrace.

While I have no sympathy for those looting goods other than neccessities and committing horrendous crimes; that's what makes the news. Those animals deserve to be shot, nothing less. We also need to remember that the overwhelming majority are poor people, who according to some, have been living in the fantasyland of poverty. They are no doubt being preyed upon by the aforementioned animals. These same individuals now have nothing, maybe less than nothing. So we can all chat idly and blame entities (as I am doing myself); but let's not forget the victims.

Interestingly, whilst having a beer at the pool (surreal when I think of what's going on 900 miles away), an insurance adjuster stated that businesses are fine with the looting and vandalism, it's covered much better than flood damage. Hmmmm.

Finally, I would challenge any decent human being- would you pass a car accident with a staggering, injured individual if you saw he was driving an expensive car and say, "it's all right, he's got money?"

Yes we are the wealthiest nation, but any help would be appreciated and remembered.

3rd Sep 2005, 03:23
National Geographic on the New Orleans flood risk - October 2004

Canadian Chief of Defence Staff Gen Hillier has said the Canadian Disaster Response Team (DART) is on standby to go south if requested by the US.

Air Canada's response to DHS/ATA request for assistance:
Air Canada provides rescue flights to evacuate New Orleans; launches in-flight donations program for victims

MONTREAL, Sept. 2 /CNW Telbec/ - In response to a request from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Air Canada is participating along with U.S. member airlines of the Air Transport Association, in a voluntary airline industry initiative to support rescue and relief operations in the region ravaged by Hurricane Katrina.

Air Canada today dispatched an Airbus A321 aircraft from Toronto to New Orleans, Louisiana, carrying bottled water and relief supplies. As part of the disaster relief effort organized by the Department of Homeland Security, Air Canada will operate shuttle flights on a continuous basis over the next several days to assist in the evacuation of approximately 25,000 victims, from New Orleans to the safety of Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio Texas.

Since Air Canada received the request for assistance yesterday evening from the Air Transport Association, of which it is a member, Air Canada employees worked around the clock to prepare and dispatch the donated aircraft and voluntary crew for the shuttle mission. The Air Canada Airbus A321 is the largest narrow-body aircraft in its fleet, capable of carrying up to 166 passengers and 5,600 kg of cargo.

"On behalf of the more than 30,000 employees of Air Canada and the entire ACE group of companies, I want to express our sadness and extend our condolences to those affected by this terrible catastrophe," said Robert Milton, Chairman, President and CEO of ACE Aviation Holdings, on board the first flight as it departed Toronto today at 1:00 p.m. en route to New Orleans.

"Air Canada is proud to represent Canada in this relief effort and contribute to help those in greatest need, as quickly as possible."
In addition, Air Canada today announced a partnership with the Canadian Red Cross to help raise funds to assist people affected by Hurricane Katrina. Beginning as early as Saturday September 3, 2005, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz flight attendants will distribute and collect Red Cross donation envelopes on flights across its North American network in Canada and the U.S.

3rd Sep 2005, 03:32
Thank you Air Canada and Canada.

3rd Sep 2005, 05:34
Ottawa — Canada will send four ships and three Sea King helicopters to the hurricane-ravaged U.S. Gulf Coast next week to assist in the mammoth reconstruction and relief effort there.

Naval crews were busy Friday loading gear and supplies on to three warships and a coast guard vessel as 1,000 personnel prepared to head to waters off New Orleans on Tuesday, a week after hurricane Katrina devastated the area.

"We are really prepared to operate on all fronts as requested and as co-ordinated by the United States," Prime Minister Paul Martin said in Saskatoon.

"There are a large number of Canadians who are on their way down there to help."

Commodore Dean McFadden, who will command the deployment, said they were consulting with their American counterparts to determine what they will do during the expected month-long mission.

However, he broadly suggested their duties would involve reconstruction, health care and humanitarian aid.

"We will have the capacity to move people. We'll have the capacity to bring medical supplies and fuel capabilities," he said as he stood on the dock next to destroyer HMCS Athabaskan, the command and control ship for the mission.

"The specific jobs we're going to do, I'll wait until the Americans tell us what help they need."

The vessels will work with the U.S. navy and U.S. Coast Guard and carry Canadian Forces personnel, some of them military engineers who might be able to help restore power and generate electricity.

About 40 navy divers from both coasts were also expected to deploy with the mission, which got clearance after American officials accepted a Canadian offer of help.

Rear Admiral Dan McNeil of the Joint Task Force Atlantic said organizers of the mission, dubbed Operation Union, were compiling a list of what's needed as U.S. officials continued to assess their requirements.

"The staff will be working all weekend putting together the list of materials we think can help and we'll be talking with the American staff (to see) what we can bring," he said.

A military aircraft will transport 27 Red Cross personnel to Houston from CFB Trenton on Saturday afternoon, the Canadian Forces said Friday night.

The Red Cross team will then proceed to the areas affected by Katrina to render assistance, the military said in a release.


3rd Sep 2005, 06:18
I hear also the two sister cities to Biloxi and New Orleans (I believe from Japan) have sent or are sending millions in aid, Canada is helping, and numerous other countries have offered if not already given aid....

On the one hand it's amazing that the US is the one in need this time, on the other hand, thank you to those countries who have contributed. I know within the states, citizens are doing all they can to find-raise for the victims... even locally our University flight team is doing airplane washings with all profits going to the Red Cross. Every little bit helps... This is for certain, a dark moment in history

3rd Sep 2005, 06:57
That's great to hear, you can always count on Canada. I remember after 9-11 and all the diverted airplanes landing in Gander etc and the way the Canadians looked after the passengers, taking them into their homes etc.

What a great neigbour to have!

Curious Pax
3rd Sep 2005, 10:22
The aftermath of Katrina was always going to be hellish no matter what the authorities did, but there seems to have been a shocking lack of preparation in the days beforehand. Don't forget that this wasn't an earthquake of which there would have been no real warning, it was a hurricane, and the likelihood of it hitting New Orleans or somewhere close was predicted for what a week beforehand? The storm also weakened from a cat 5 to a cat 4 as it got to shore, so could have been even worse!

I'm amazed that there doesn't appear to have been any great gathering together of the resources very likely to be needed in the immediate aftermath at some airbase outside of the danger area, so that as soon as the weather improved they could get straight in there.

I'm only going from memory, but my recollection of the tsunami relief effort is that 5 days on it was much further on than this one, and the logisitical challenges of that one would appear to have been greater given the much larger geographical spread, and they got no warning.

Thinking longer term, seeing how the fuel price seems to be such a significant political trigger in the US (and assuming that this disaster has a detrimental effect on it) it could be a watershed in the political balance between voters wanting tax cuts, and voters being prepared to pay for what they view as an acceptable level of public services.

3rd Sep 2005, 11:18
I'm amazed that there doesn't appear to have been any great gathering together of the resources very likely to be needed in the immediate aftermath at some airbase outside of the danger area, so that as soon as the weather improved they could get straight in there. As BenThere and I discussed last night, the bulk of US airlift capacity is engaged elsewhere at the moment and you can't just redeploy it overnight with the push of a button.

I presume that some of it is being redeployed, though?

3rd Sep 2005, 11:31
My humble opinion, watching from Australia:

1. We stand by the US in this.

2. The mayor said what needed to be said, and said it well, particularly for a man who probably has had no sleep for days and is highly stressed to put it mildly.

3. A small percentage of any community, black, white, rich, poor, Western or other has no inbuilt 'moral constraint' and will act criminally as soon as sanctions (cops, normal social behaviour around them, etc) are removed. To be expected and while an exotic angle for news-hungry reporters, it's not the main deal.

4. Hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy to criticise from the warmth and safety of wherever.

5. Things take time to assess, and reaction takes time to organise. The government is not a fairy godmother, and neither should it be. There have been mistakes, but we are human.

6. Some good will come of this, in preparedness for the next event, wherever it is, and in helping people appreciate that we can and should help each other in a disaster like this.

I'm proud of my government's contribution, and would do something personally if I could.

3rd Sep 2005, 13:06
A reporter of our TV station was in NO himself (where were you Dubya??), talking to various people trying to get out of the city. They were sent back like lepers by the police after having a bottle of water thrown at them. They were absolutely desperate claiming that even the police was looting Walmart.

Also he saw a huge traffic jam of ambulances and trucks ready to go into NO, but they didn't move for days.

I have the idea that the authorities first want to have the area completely secured from armed looters before the aid is send in.

Can't they just send in tanks and armed cars to protect them? I mean, some risk have to be taken to rescue the 10,000's of people starving from food and water?

As for smirkin' Kaiser George, well he showed his usual lethargic ignorance, inaptitude and lack of vision and decision-making when nobody pulls his puppet strings. After his longest ever holiday break (why does disaster always strike on his holidays?) one might expect that he's fit enough (wasn't he the fittest President in US history?) to go to the disater area immediately instead of playing guitar? I already asked 4 days ago why he didn't imediately visited the disaster area instead of flying over on the way to Foggy Bottom? He could have talked to Nagin, instead of hiding in the White House. It took him 5 fecking days to show up and not even had the guts to visit hell (NO) itself.

I know he can't do everything, but at least being right there at the time would have give him the respect he's now lacking.

US can take a country of 25 mio people in 3 weeks, but can't even bring relief in a city like NO within a week. Maybe it's time for the strongest country on Earth to realise where its priorities are without the usual partisan issues... at home?

Too little, too late Georgie... :yuk:

3rd Sep 2005, 13:29
I just can't bring myself to leap into Bush-bashing mode here. I agree with whoever said that if Kerry or Gore were in charge SASless would be apoplectic with rage at the lack of action, but the same applies to the regular Bush-bashers. It's just too easy to criticise from in front of our TV's with a beer in hand, as I believe SASless himself said earlier.

Several days and several pages ago I also expressed a wish that politics would somehow be kept out of what is a human tragedy, visited upon us by forces waaaay beyond any politician's control. Who said you get too old to dream? :rolleyes:

But I do wish to take issue with my fellow aussie RJM on one count. A small percentage of any community, black, white, rich, poor, Western or other has no inbuilt 'moral constraint' and will act criminally as soon as sanctions (cops, normal social behaviour around them, etc) are removed. To be expected and while an exotic angle for news-hungry reporters, it's not the main deal.
I may be displaying my naivete here, and I recognise that a mother looking desperately for milk or even water for her baby may not agree, but to me, the total destruction of the veneer of western "civilisation" in such a short time HAS been the most jolting and confronting issue.

I leave myself open to the accusation of armchair philosopher crying into his beer, to which I plead guilty. I assign no blame, neither do I wish to distract from the suffering being experienced by so many people, I'm simply stating a personal, from the heart viewpoint, and I feel shocked and saddened at yet another demonstration of man's inhumanity to man.

3rd Sep 2005, 14:06
Making drama out of a crisis?

Some incoherent thoughts about stuff: :confused:

Government's response in organising prompt relief has been p1ss-poor. We should admit that. But what about those of ordinary people not directly affected? The flat-bottomed cat-fish boat-owner who on K+1 gets his buddies together and says "Let's load the 4x4s with supplies and go do us some fishin' in Louisiana...?!" Whatever happened to individual initiative? Have people in the 21st century simply become conditionned to leave everything upto government? And this in the USA of all places?! :\

If it had been Britain, wishful imagination would have me believing that a multitude of people from towns nearby the afflicted area would be inundating their town council with offers of "I've got a spare room, I could take a couple." or "I've got a caravan, it will sleep 4."?! Instead of shipping them off to Wembley stadium. :ugh:

I see that it's no longer enough just to be seen to empathise or offer apparently sincere condolences. Something must be done to appease those who cry out belligerently "We helped THEM, now where are THEY?!" So we have the ridiculous situation of countries like Sri Lanka donating $25,000 to the US Red Cross... :rolleyes:

Maybe as some have alluded to, the rich-veined exotic-wood veneers ironed onto cheap particle-board, are all that hides us from the frightening substances underlying modern society. All I've ever seen is white formica... :sad:

3rd Sep 2005, 14:31
Bush himself admitted that the Federal response (i.e. his) was pisspoor. I'm no great supporter of his but I'm no great knocker either. But when the levee/s failed on Tuesday the impact was clear. Yet 24h elapsed before meaningful assistance was mobilized. I struggle with that.

Airship, I can't help but feel you're letting prejudice speak louder than fact. Thousands of people throughout the U.S. South (and beyond) have opened up their homes to evacuees. There have been many stories of homeowners moving in with friends, lending their entire houses to families they've never met. And whereas there will always be some who look away, many boatowners answered the call to assist but bugged out of New Orleans when they took fire from sh!theads on nearby rooftops.

RJM, I appreciate your solidarity but think you're too forgiving. This situation has been anticipated for decades, including your third point about law and order. So why did it take 5 days for significant numbers of guardsmen to be deployed? Why is there still bickering between local, state and federal authorities about mitigation and recovery? And why, pray, was bottled water being flown in from Idaho? I hope that lessons will be learned, for the sake of future disaster victims. Three words: San Andreas Fault.

At least the cavalry is now arriving. There's still much to do.

3rd Sep 2005, 14:54
Thousands of people throughout the U.S. South (and beyond) have opened up their homes to evacuees. There have been many stories of homeowners moving in with friends, lending their entire houses to families they've never met. I wasn't thinking merely along the lines of people welcoming relatives or even friends of friends...and I think you know it! :uhoh:

Alpha Leader
3rd Sep 2005, 15:27
Let us all hope that this sad and horrific disaster will result in the US as a country reflecting on its true strengths and its true limitations. No point in forcing "the American way of life" down the throats of small countries all over the globe when the system at home is completely incompetent in taking care of its own citizens and anarchy rules. Very sad :ugh:

3rd Sep 2005, 15:34
Take yourself back to 9/11....remember how the Mayor of New York conducted himself and the City of New York (goverment and citizens) rose to the occasion. Compare that to the situation in New Orleans and how the Mayor of New Orleans and the City of New Orleans (Government and citizens) are rising to the occasion.

The Big Easy has always been a cesspool....it just so happens the drain is backing up now.

The Mayor and all of his predecessors knew of the potential for this event. A former Mayor, himself the son of a former Mayor, so stated that on television yesterday.

The City of New Orleans did not have a proper plan for the disaster.....as an example....look at the 200 school buses left standing in the water....they could have been used to shuttle people to higher ground. For his Nibs to curse and point fingers at the other agencies merely shows how useless he is.

Our dear friend and colleague Jesse (Get My Face On Camera) Jackson, has seen fit to show up and incite to riot by saying it is merely because the majority of the victims are Black....there is such a poor response. At the same time ....the Reverend (Should Have Used a Condom) Jackson ignores the looting and criminal acts being done by his people...as he does everytime one of these outbreaks of lawlessness occurs.

I am just waiting for Jane Fonda to show up.....

Look at the way Texans (home of George Bush) have moved to help those in need. The news folks brush that aside and keep pointing out the failures...what of the successes...there are plenty.

3rd Sep 2005, 15:38
So we have the ridiculous situation of countries like Sri Lanka donating $25,000 to the US Red Cross... Sri Lanka is among the poorer nations on this planet and is itself still rebuilding the damage caused by the tsunami.

To them, $25000 probably is quite a lot of money at the moment.

3rd Sep 2005, 15:54
I am just waiting for Jane Fonda to show up..... So, SASless, are you reduced to comparing the situation in the Gulf states with Vietnam now?!

But you may not be too far off the mark: Katrina has all the ingredients to bring down a government.

If I wasn't paranoid, I wouldn't have given all those repeated reports about (the hundreds and thousands of) rapes, roaming gangs, looting and general lawlessness making it difficult to conduct rescue operations a second thought either. The stakes are probably so high that I guess certain unscrupulous individuals might even have tried to exagerrate these unsavoury developments in order to explain the paucity of aid efforts...? :rolleyes:

To them, $25000 probably is quite a lot of money at the moment. It's what a single decent Dodge 4x4 costs Caslance, and I believe that Americans buy over 3 million new ones every year... :}

3rd Sep 2005, 16:10
No point in forcing "the American way of life" down the throats of small countries all over the globe when the system at home is completely incompetent in taking care of its own citizens and anarchy rules.

Ouch! You have to admit Alpha Leader has a pretty good point there. I suspect there is going to be a need for a great deal of introspection by everybody in the near future if we are to survive more than a couple of generations. Things are moving much more quickly than they did last century. :uhoh:

3rd Sep 2005, 16:36
Sri Lanka is not the USA, airship..........

3rd Sep 2005, 16:37
Ah yes, but the arrogance, ignorance and xenophobia that existed all those years past remains with us yet from what I have read recently.

One does not decry the size of a gift....one thanks the giver for being kind hearted does one not? During times of need, our heritage talks of helping others as being a noble act and one that is obligatory upon seeing a need and having the means to assist one that is undergoing hardship.

Twas not a Christmas Carol tale written about such a thing....seems my memory of my studies of English Literature had one of those. Dickens was it?

3rd Sep 2005, 17:00
Most of the problems here are the fault of the Loiusiana governor. Only she can declare martial law and call out the the guard for the state (its that state's right thing that we cherish so much) and she DIDN'T!

We say looting isn't a big deal, but as we have seen in other places it is actually a big deal because once you society begins to crack then the fallout is immediate. In short order anarchy happens then NOTHING can be done to help the rest of the population.

The single most important thing that a government can provide is law and order. Once law and order is established then all other things are possible. Without law and order, nothing is possible. The governor should have called out the national guard the second the levies breached and issued a shoot to kill for looters. Then rescue workers could have continued instead of having to be pulled back.

This is very similar to Dinkins vs Guliani in NY. Dinkins had riot after riot with unbievable violence. Guiliani put law and order first and then all other things were possible.

My views are admittedly coloured by having lived in LA during the Rodney King Riots and the Northridge earthquake. Since then I have NEVER been under any illusions about how fast society can break down.

On to the evactuation, or lack thereof:

As to evacuating NO. That was done last year, when othe other hurricanes threatened it as well. Of course nothing happened that year except people came home to find their houses robbed. so it isunlikely that many of those who were left this year really tried to leave.

It seams that the Weather forecasters yelled "hurricane" one time too many...


3rd Sep 2005, 17:38
I don't in any way agree with, or condone the looting (I'm talking about items other than food, water and medicine), but the way I look at it is that a very large percentage of the population left in NO were living way below the poverty line, and what few possessions they did own have now been totally destroyed, and there is little or no chance of them being replaced.

The people still there, don't know what the future might hold for them, and all they own are the clothes they are wearing.
Who knows how any of us might react in that situation, but the chances are, we would never find out, as the most of us can afford insurance.

BUT, I think that anyone who resorts to physical violence, should be locked up, and anyone who trys to shoot at any of the rescuers should be shot on sight.

3rd Sep 2005, 18:25
On Wednesday a number of Greens tried to bring a large amount of water to the SuperDome. They were prevented from doing so, as have many others. Why have food and water been blocked from reaching tens of thousands of poor people?CounterPunch Article (http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen09032005.html)

We have been hearing about volunteer initiatives, but none of them seem to have made it into NO while people were left to die -- the scandal deepens

3rd Sep 2005, 18:50
A lot has been said and my english aint to good.

I grew up in a so -called racist South Africa.

Man I have never seen such racism in my life, live on TV !

SO underlying in the beautiful NO is a hatred and racism that the world has never seen.

Even the local newspapers are racist ... damn I thought "we" where bad but I have seen enough to know when you point a finger - 4 shows back at you.

God Bless the rescue "effort". Too late but let's hope and pray for the best.


3rd Sep 2005, 19:11
The best solution is abandon the flood plain of the Mississippi and build New, New Orleans somewhere else.

However, I wonder how many more seconds will pass before a politician says, "We'll build it better than before." This, of course, is immpossible but they will
promise it anyway.

To build a city that has parts of it 3 metres / 10 feet below the top of the levee???? Madness but be assured that the greedy folk in Europe have done the same!

3rd Sep 2005, 20:11
A report from someone who's recently flown medevac into NO found on SimHQ (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=142;t=000139;p=0) and AvCanada (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=10593). Quote below is a direct lift of that found in those threads. There are some pictures taken by the author and further information in follow-up posts on the SimHQ thread. May already be on PPRuNe somewhere but couldn't see it during a brief inspection, apologies if already posted.

Regards, SSS

Just got back. It's terrible. Worse than it looks on the news. We flew to Birmingham to tanker up on fuel so that we wouldn't have to get fuel in New Orleans (MSY) besides which I couldn't get a hold of anyone on the ground there to see if fuel was even available.

On approach into MSY the sky was extremely hazy with smoke drifting into the air from the city. Apparently overnight the approach control got power because they did have radar coverage. The airport is still daytime VFR only though..no approaches and no runway lights so it is day-light only operations. There is also a Customs and Border Patrol P-3 Orion providing air traffic advisories in the area "Omaha-44".

I didn't think we'd get the visual approach but at about 5 miles just as they were going to start a GCA approach for us (something I've done about 1 time in the past 7 years) we spotted the airfield through the murk. At about 1000' above the ground the smell started to seep in through the bleed system...I can't describe it other than to say it smelled like decay.

Everywhere you looked there were helicopters scooting around the skies: Blackhawks, Coast Guard Dauphines, Hueys, news helicopters, EMS, etc... The approach controller and tower controllers sounded tired. As a matter of fact when we were leaving they cleared us into position and hold for a minute or two to wait for crossing helicopters and I think they forget they had a heavy FedEx plane on final because he queried if he was cleared to land and the controller quickly gave us our takeoff clearance with an "immediate" phrase...

We taxied to the General Aviation ramp which is a combination Signature/Atlantic but the only thing there were a couple helicopters that were hot refueling and a pretty busy Signature guy that was doing all the fueling. He said all he had was what was in the trucks so I was glad we didn't have to use his fuel so he could save it for the helos.

The airport was in surprisingly good condition and pretty much dry. All of the serious flooding occured on the east side of the Mississippi and we were on the west side. Buildings were obviously wrecked, airplanes twisted, other signs that the storm was there...but the basic infrastructure (runways, taxiways) were solid.

Opening the door the first thing that hit me was the heat..oppressive heat and humidity, haze and obscured visibility. There was nobody there to meet us and we had no communications with our dispatch. No land lines or cell phones worked. In Birmingham our dispatch had indicated to us that they had lost all contact with the hospital we were supposed to be transporting for so we may or may not have a patient. I had the additional problem of being on the margin of my duty time. I was paged to fly at 11:30PM last night but since we couldn't get in until the sun came up we didn't depart for New Orleans until about 7AM. I only have 14 hours of duty time..we arrived in New Orleans at 10AM so I had to be airborne by noon to make it back in my 14 hour duty day.

A few minutes after we got out a helicopter landed next to us and this guy hopped out and asked if we could take his patients. He was desperate to offload them and with our flight nurses and us (plus our other airplane which had arrived a few minutes after us) he figured we were a good mark. Our nurses explained to him that we were there for two specific critical vented patients and he said: "Great..I can be airborne and get you all the vented patients you want in a few minutes.." He didn't get that we were there for specific people...lottery winners if you will...and we all felt horrible that we couldn't take these other people.

The three people he was carrying were very elderly, immobile old women. We carried them under an awning at Atlantic's ramp and gave them most of our water, Gatorade and some snacks...they hadn't had a drink of water in 2 days. They were on the margin...and everyone was just going to leave them there...out on this concrete ramp with nobody around..because everyone had something else to do..other victims to get. It was heartbreaking. Finally we convinced the Signature guy to call the other side of the airfield where there was a field hospital set up I think..and they came over and took them away. They were sweet old ladies..in obvious shock. I felt so guilty..so ashamed that I could not help them. Had my duty time been very close I had told the flight nurses we were going to put them on our airplane and fly them to Birmingham even if I ended up getting reprimanded (or fired). It was that bad.

Then, to my great surprise, two pick-up trucks came through the gate of the airport with our actual patients in the beds. Each was attended by 4 nurses because they were intubated and they had to manually "bag" them all the way from the hospital in New Orleans (40 minutes or so drive). Just patients laying in the back of pick-up trucks with all manner of tubes and equipment.

We transfered them to our equipment and I'll never forget the look of despair and exhaustion in those nurses eyes. They were dealing with gun wielding looters, druggies, sick people, their own personal crisis, and a million other things. One of the nurses looked at us (the pilots and flight nurses) and started crying. She was weeping and saying she didn't think anyone was going to come. We gave them the last of our water and Gatorade bottles and told them we would definitely be back. They were extremely grateful..in tears again.

I've been doing this for 7 years..I've seen all manner of accidents, traumas, limbs torn loose, gunshot wounds to the head, amputations, burns, cancer, AIDS, Hepatitis..you name it, I've seen it. I've never seen anything like this. Helicopters shuttling back and forth constantly, just dropping people off to a completely overwhelmed field hospital. Very sick people that would be lucky to live through the heat of the day. And the despair of the people working the disaster...they are on the edge...walking zombies almost. I can't describe my feelings...I felt helpless.

And I felt angry too. The airport is in very good condition. There was only one C-141 on the ramp. I saw no heavy lift helicopters like CH-47s or 53s...a few Blackhawks..but mostly civil EMS and news helicopters. I know this is going to press slightly into WCE but it is my firm belief, sitting there looking at the airport and the operations that are going on there, that the federal government effort on this catastrophy is not a very committed one. And I hazard to say that if this had happened in Naples, Florida or Hilton Head, SC that the full force and effect of the federal government would swing into action. Where this happened, and who it happened to are defining the response...and it is sorely lacking. This needs to be a full on military operation. It is sad and it is terrible. The conditions are truly terrible...and I only witnessed a slice of it.

As soon as we landed we swapped crews and sent out our two airplanes again, this time loaded with cases of Gatorade and water as well. I'm going on my 10 hours of duty rest and I'm sure we'll swap out again at midnight..although we might have to way until dawn for our crack at it again.

Anyway..that is what I saw. After watching the looting and crazy activity on the news (shooting at helicopters trying to move people from the roof of the hospital!!??) the past few days I can now discount those people as truly low-life scum..wheras the majority of the people in that city are just plain suffering. Proof that nature's wrath knows no difference between super-power and the 3rd world...



3rd Sep 2005, 20:28
Thanks for a great insight BeachAV8R (and of course from SSS).

Watching a bit of CNN now and the racism issues are quite well spoken about now.

A Reverend also spoke about the poor in the area vs the rich and white getting such better and quicker responses during 11 Sept ...

West Coast
3rd Sep 2005, 21:12
Been on a trip for a few days and away from the computer. Come back only to be amazed by the rantings of the usual group. I can't help but believe many of the Bush bashers are quietly enjoying the misery of those in the affected areas. An opportunity to once again bash the President. Some of you are low, now I think some of you are scum of the earth. You don't give a damn about the people, just another chance to score points.

Something for Euros doing the bashing to think about, this is an area larger than the UK that is affected. Euro's tend to think on small scale in geographical scales, digest that for awhile.

You rant and rave about shoving American lifestyle down some ones throat. WTFO? Small minded people think about stuff like this when operations are still ongoing, focus on the people in YOUR attempts to grapple the situation, not what you perceive the rights and wrongs of US foreign policy.

3rd Sep 2005, 21:55
How typically one-eyed!

People have been scoring points on both sides, West Coast - but so far only you have descended into xenophobic finger-pointing. I see only one person "ranting and raving" and you're certainly no Euro.

Oh, and the really heavy-duty Bush-bashing has been coming from your own countrymen.

You might want give that some thought, fella....... :hmm:

Spuds McKenzie
4th Sep 2005, 00:49
I can't help but believe many of the Bush bashers are quietly enjoying the misery of those in the affected areas.
Believe what you want to believe, West Coast, fact is, with this statement you have utterly disqualified yourself.
One of the most insulting imputations I've seen on Jet Blast. :yuk:

4th Sep 2005, 02:52
And we see Bush for what he really is ... just a complete cnut!

What type of government does absolutely nothing for it's own citizens for the first 3 days after such a large scale natural disaster and Bush's answer to the problem is .....

"If you are caught looting, you will be killed".

Maybe if the administration had actually done something, the lootiing would not be as bad.

A government that orders it's military to shoot it's own people - unbelievable.

As usual, Bush's answer to every problem that actually requires someone with a brain to figure it out, is, kill, kill, kill.

America, wake up. Surely now the percentage of the US population that realise that this guy and his criminal mates are inhumane and don't give a rats a$$ about anyone but themselves will grow from the 49%.

Astra driver
4th Sep 2005, 03:09
A lot of finger pointing going on right now and very few willing to take some responsibility, with the sole exception of President Bush who admitted on thursday that the response was inadequate.

If someone needs to stand up and take some blame it is the Mayor of New Orleans. I was in New Orleans in the days leading up to the hurricane and watched him on the news conferences which began on Friday. Frankly, he looked like a deer caught in the headlights and did not seem to know what to say, except when prompted by the governor. His response both before and after Katrina hit has been pathetic.

For example:

The police force was not prepared, patrol cars were running out of gas, and radio batteries running out on Monday. One third of the police force is known to have simply deserted, this according to many NO officers

A "mandatory" evacuation was ordered, yet high rise buildings were exempt, and the order was never enforced. The superdome was designated as an evacation center, yet it is located in the center of town, below sea level. Worse still, knowing that the building was going to be home to 20,000 people for who knows how long, no provisions were made for security, sanitation, water or food of any kind.

Fleets of School buses that were available and could have been used to get people to locations outside of the potential flood zone were never used.

Only once the situation deteriorated on tuesday with the flooding, looting, shooting was the national guard ordered in. (It is still not known if they were requested by the mayor, or sent in by the governor)

Throughout all this we hear nothing from the Mayor until Thursday when he starts ranting "S.O.S." and "get off your a***s and do something" instead of something a bit more constructive like, we need X amount of water, X amount of food, Ice, Medicine, this many busses, etc. His colorfull speech might have made a great sound bite but did little to help the poor citizens of the City that he was elected to take care of.

Yes, the Federal response was slow coming, but a substantial amount of the blame must go to the local government that failed to adequately prepare and seemed disoreintated and uncoordinated in the first days.

4th Sep 2005, 03:33

Long article so you Bush Bashers need not bother reading it....it is long on bombast which you will be used to....but the meat of the matter is the timeline the author lays out on what did not happen and who did not do it.

Funny thing....it is not George Bush that gets the blame but rather the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisana. I would suggest there is some merit to that accusation.

Ask yourselves how many hospitals were evacuated from New Orleans?

Ask yourselves how many buses...public, school, and others were used to evacuate the poor?

Ask yourselves why the New Orleans Fire and Police Departments were not prepared for this event?

Ask yourselves when the New Orleans City, the County (Parish), and State Emergency Plans were initiated?

After you answer those questions....then ask why the Federal Government was so slow....just like football folks....someone has to do the first kick off....until then no one gets into action.

Then....think about trying to coordinate the relief work in three states, several dozen counties, hundreds of municipalities with all the different jurisdictions, and do so without electricity, telephones or the other basic infrastructure of modern society.

You numbskulls that continue to poke sticks at Bush are the ones that indict yourselves....not West Coast.

Ignore the riff-raff Westie....they know not what they do.

4th Sep 2005, 03:44
Right now Bush-bashing seems cheap and opportunistic; there will be blame aplenty to spread for months to come and, gradually, a clearer vision of what now seems to be an abject failure to coordinate will appear.

The damage in the South has been done and all that's left is to struggle up out of the mess, try not to make it any worse and just hope they won't be hit by another storm this season.

What one would hope is happening, beyond what we can see in the press, is a very thorough rethink of disaster response. Particularly in SFO where state and municipal governments as well as the population will surely be accompanying with great attention what might be in store for them next. And wondering to what extent they can count on the federal government.

4th Sep 2005, 04:19
I dont think anyone realizes just how dangerous this situation is.

Refugees are pathetic and sad looking, but you know what? They are also exceptionally dangerous in large numbers. We fought a war in Europe between the two gulf wars just to put people back on their land in order to keep them from destabilizing Greece and other neighboring countries.

Baton Rouge has been inundated (a city of about 250,000 not to far north of NO) by refugees from NO and guess what, there is no food or water left in the stores there either now. A small scuffle is all it takes to start another round of looting or rioting and guess what, you have lost order in another city, and the people stream out of that city into the next one.... and the next one..... and the next one...

Its much easier to break a society down than to put it back. Refugees and sad and need help. But its also important to remember what happens if they are not helped or if they overwhelm the infrastructure of their destination.


4th Sep 2005, 04:58

Pretty good report on the status of New Orleans by its Tourism Department....some pie in the sky comments but good information.

4th Sep 2005, 05:35
Really SASless???

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

California troops just began arriving in Louisiana on Friday, three days after flood waters devastated New Orleans and chaos broke out.

FEMA, SASless, is a Federal body, it's purpose is specifically to deal with situations like this.

Paul Begala said on Crossfire on Aug. 16, 2004:

Speaking about the president, the head of the federal emergency management agency said that it could take weeks to search through all the debris and find all the victims of Hurricane Charley in Florida. Of course, one of President Bush's first moves as president was to fire James Lee Witt, the disaster relief professional who had turned FEMA from a basket case to showcase.

Mr. Witt was replaced by George W. Bush's campaign manager, Joe Allbaugh, who was in turn replaced by another political hack, Michael Brown, whose prior experience with disasters consisted of serving as a Republican staffer in the disaster of the Oklahoma legislature.

Lieutenant Commander of Northern Command said this on BBC World News:

NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you'll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it's search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.

As an aside, I am now watching a CNN program on the whole digrace that took place withing this government pre Iriaq War.They have interviewee after interviewee who were deeply involved in the "discussions" that took place, lambasting the administration for the lies and deceit, for the manipulation of the facts, their treatment the CIA agents by Cheney and co........It is incredible stuff.

This incompetence over Katrina is another nail in that administration, exposing their utter incompetence. It is they who wrapped up FEMA is the labyrinth of "The Dept of Homeland Security"

So "Bush Bashing?" Get real pal, we haven't even started, there is a lot more bashing to come of this incompetent buffoon and his gang of weasels in Washington. You think we should just keep quiet and let his long list of incompetence go unchecked? Not call him to task after lying and deceiving his own countrymen and forging the cause for war? And now yet more incompetence as his federal authorities, that he is in charge of, have reacted with dreadful slowness in reacting to this disaster.

West Coast
4th Sep 2005, 05:48
Careful, your agenda is showing. Tying the war in Iraq to a hurricane in the US, your losing all perspective. Your politcial beliefs have overridden any objective sense you have.

BTW, what if anything have any of you done to help out besides bitch up a storm?

The company I am a partial owner of is matching all donations from employees. I personally have given $250.00 dollars. The matching funds is going to cost me a lot more.

So what have any of you done? Hopefully not too busy enjoying the misery of others and Bush bashing to get off your asses and help.

4th Sep 2005, 05:54
Oh get real WC, so you say that the POTUS and administration should be immune from any criticism when there are questions to be asked?

All I'm saying this is the latest in a list of incompetence.

I can't seak for others, but knowing the area well my self and my wife gave 500 Euros to the US Red Cross

That's a very sick accusation and typical of the desperation of the GOP right to claim that we "are enjoying the misery of others" what a stupid thing to say WC. It's beacuse of those people suffereing that I'm speaking up, because it didn't have to be quite this bad if the federal govt had been quicker to react.

As I said, very sick WC and a very sneaky and sly way to try and divert attention from that fool in the White House.

4th Sep 2005, 06:03

Does anyone not know who Paul Begala is? He was one of Bill Clintons two faced lying weasels who routinely caught spears for old Slick Willie. A Huffy Puff in other words. Thus, I am sure he is being impartial in his observations.

A bit of perspective

James Robbins at NRO debunks the notion that New Orleans suffered because of the deployment of National Guard units in Iraq. Robbins notes that, according to the chief of the National Guard Bureau, 75 percent of the Army and Air National Guard are available nationwide and the federal government has agreed since the conflict in Iraq started not to mobilize more than 50 percent of Guard assets in any given state, in order to leave sufficient resources for governors to respond to emergencies. There's no evidence that, with 750,000 guardsmen in the U.S., and two-thirds of the Louisiana Guard available, the deployment in Iraq is causing suffering in New Orleans or elsewhere along the Gulf Coast. In any case, the notion that, in a time of war, we should set keep higher percentages of our Guard on the sidelines just in case there's a natural disaster of unprecedented proportions seems difficult to defend.

Moreover, in Robbins' view the actual response of the Guard has been "commendable." He notes that National Guard troops were mobilized immediately and 7,500 troops were on the ground within 24 hours. And, in response to allegations by carping from the New York Times of a "man-made disaster," he points out the following:

The DOD response is well ahead of the 1992 Hurricane Andrew timetable. Back then, the support request took nine days to crawl through the bureaucracy. The reaction this time was less than three days officially, and DOD had been pre-staging assets in anticipation of the aid request from the moment Katrina hit. DOD cannot act independently of course; the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is the lead agency. Requests for assistance have to be routed from local officials through FEMA to U.S. Northern Command and then to the necessary components. In practice, this means state officials have to assess damage and determine relief requirements; FEMA has to come up with a plan for integrating the military into the overall effort; DOD has to begin to pack and move the appropriate materiel, and deploy sufficient forces. This has all largely been or is being accomplished.
Robbins concludes that, although a disaster of this magnitude is bound to be politicized, "it is hard to understand what more should, or realistically could have been done up to this point."

4th Sep 2005, 06:05
As you are in yours GORMless! :p

A totally expeted smear effort of anyone who criticises Bush......:p

West Coast
4th Sep 2005, 06:12
There's criticism (usually followed at least by some suggestions of what would be done better) and there's rantings. Yours fall in the later.

Many are enjoying it, a chance to Bush Bash. If one chooses to say that the response is lacking, so be it. There may be some validity to it. When its tied to the war, or cramming American values down others throats, or other typical comments (that have absolutely no tie to the hurricane) well sorry but I put those posters only slightly above some of the terrorists who openly rejoice over the hurricane and results.

4th Sep 2005, 06:12
One World....just as you and your ilk like to ignore 99.9% of what is going on around you and focus on the remaining bit....I take a different view. I ignore that which is meaningless and view a much larger part of the puzzle....it helps to put the pieces together that way. It helps to have the box top lying close to hand to figure out what the puzzle is supposed to look like. It is a shame that in life....real life....a thing called reality....we don't always have that box top to look at thus the puzzles are always harder to figure out.

One World...you will note that old Paully here wrote a book....something about case against George Bush....thus I reiterate....just another Bush Basher.

Paul Begala is CNN's voice "from the left," along with fellow commentator James Carville, on CNN's The Situation Room. On The Situation Room, Begala and Carville discuss the hottest issues of the day with Robert Novak, who provides commentary "from the right."

Begala was formerly co-host of Crossfire, CNN’s political debate program. He first entered the national political scene after his consulting firm, Carville & Begala, helped elect President Bill Clinton in 1992. Serving in the Clinton administration as counselor to the president, he helped define and defend the administration's agenda and served as the principal public spokesman.

Carville & Begala's other well-known electoral successes include the 1991 Senate victory of Harris Wofford in Pennsylvania, the 1990 gubernatorial victories of Georgia's Zell Miller and Pennsylvania's Robert P. Casey and the 1998 re-election of Sen. Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey.

Previously, Begala co-hosted with Oliver North MSNBC's political talk show, Equal Time. Author of the best-selling book Is Our Children Learning?: The Case Against George W. Bush, he also recently co-authored the current best-seller Buck Up, Suck Up and Come Back When You Foul Up with Carville. Begala helped John F. Kennedy, Jr. launch George magazine, where he served as a contributing editor and wrote the Capital Hillbilly column. He has also written numerous articles and op-eds for numerous publications.

A native of Texas, Begala earned his undergraduate and law degrees from the University of Texas, where he taught before his work at the White House. After leaving the Clinton administration, Begala joined Georgetown University's staff as a research professor of government and public policy.

4th Sep 2005, 06:23
SASless, sorry I just spat coffee all over my laptop here...

Did you just say that people like me don't look at bigger picture??!!

Is this coming from a Bush supporter?

And are you denying that James Lee Witt was dismissed from FEMA? A typical tactic then of the GOP, claim that the guy reporting this has no credibility. A silly tactic really as the fact remains that Witt was in fact dismissed!

WC, I fail to see your problem here, there were things that Bush should have dne differently olus there are longer term factors like the cut to funding for things like that are a factor here, you can't just dismiss them and accuse those of us who point them out as "enjoying other peoples misery"

Seriously WC, you're begginning to appear like you don't think any criticism of this administration should be tolerated.

How do you feel about Fidel and Chavez offering help? Fidel offered 1100 Doctors! :eek: