View Full Version : Who needs enemies with friends like these....

Wun Wing Lo
27th Aug 2005, 10:26
Been listening to the interesting comments made by our representatives over the past couple of fridays. From the spawning of VB i think most of us could see the writing on the wall. Our own execs realised our dirty little secret. When we joked that we had the best job in the world and would do it for free we weren't actually joking.

For those that love a good conspiracy this is how it goes.

Seemingly unrelated events conspiring together to result in the situation we see forming now.

Management, from here on referred to as 'them' or 'they', finally found an opportunity to cut down their pilots, that i will refer to as 'us' or 'we'.

Hence the plan was put in place. It started simply enough. By attacking the most vulnerable group in the company. Those overpaid underworked 744 SO's. You know the ones... earning 130k + a year some 160k + .... more than some FO's on other fleets.... living the lifestyle with no intention to promote unless it was vertically.... (as opposed to what?).

So the pressure started to be put on SO's to go for promotion on other types. Despite, at the time, constant complaints from those crew about T&C's.

This went on for a couple of years... SO's would be constantly asked, usually by senior crew, when they were getting off their bums and doing some real work. Then one day vertical promotion was stopped on the 400. The union agreed to it on safety grounds. This was to say that SO's or FO's who were type rated and familiar with systems routes etc were not safe to fly with an extra bar.... but it was perfectly acceptable for them to be promoted on the classic.

It was questioned at the time and many could not believe our representatives agreed to it without trading it for something else at least. But for the most part we forgot about it and life went on. The reality was most of us wanted promotions as they became available.

Then the LOA with J* was introduced. Again at the time our representative negotiated it in secret. Scant details were made available. When the deal was finally struck much was talked about by everyone.... However our union delayed the release of the MOU as long as possible. Leaving very little time for us to read the MOU without the spin attached to it. We were then scaremongered into voting for it. Apparently the consequences of not signing were dire.

I think about 900 voted... 300 against... out of how many 2500?

There were no benefits from this for your average mainline driver. Having a look at the latest seniority list only six numbers appear as applying to the MOU. So no benifit to the vast majority and we risked a transfer of business case. Which we were assured at the time was not in jeapordy.

Now the latest LH EBA has been negotiated. It was done in secret with very little information given to the members. The reason being that they didnt want the details to leak out and jeapodise our bargaining postition with the company. Now it turns out the deal they have made sacrafices the most junior members. It was necessary were told. What have we traded for... Increase in LOL insurance by the company... and change of the age brackets from 50-55 to 50-60... and a 3% base pay rise.
For those towards the end of their careers fantastic... great for your final super payout and if you go out a bit early medically a golden handshake to boot... and it cost nothing. I use the previous statement to show the true worth of the EBA.. Causing division.

Now we are told by our reps that we should consider ourselves lucky if we manage to keep the existing long haul fleets. That J* will be expanding well beyond its 23 aircraft. Thats a lot of transfer of business already happening. Lets assume best case scenario... .we keep the A330's, the 744 and to be generous A380.

Now for this model to work there would be a massive reduction in numbers required. As more and more jobs went to the respective LCC there would be less and less flying for us.

Those with commands would be relatively ok. But any movement woud be frozen...

With no vertical promotion your only option for advancement would be the A330. With every promotion to the 744 & A380 having to be taken from the A330 and return of service obligation movement would be extremely slow indeed. If these go to a LCC then you have no chance for promotion within mainline.

Your only option... go to J* or Australian under the MOU... Pay for your endorsement... take a pay cut. Sit there for however many years it takes for your slot to open up back in mainline. What happens if there is nowhere for you to come back to when your ready. Move your life to MEL or CNS. Hope your wife doesnt leave you and your kids arent too disrupted in their schooling.

So you say... i'll sit here until my slot opens up. You could be there 5 10 15 years. In that time all those J* and junior mainline pilots that paid for their endorsements and got paid peanuts now get your slot on the big jets because you cant take it.

Why wasnt the LH EBA7 released on the AIPA website for all of us to disseminate as soon as it was approved. We are getting the same arguments from our representatives as we did with the last LOA... No information... what little is given is given at the last minute and then pressure is applied to vote yes.

We are now told in the latest friday newsletter that AIPA is still considering the transfer of business case and they cannot comment. Another stalling tactic is it? Why the heck are we still considering our position.. it was made clear to us that it had already been researched and we were assured that it would not be affected by J* or the MOU. Or is it just a case of stalling for time so the last nail in the coffin can be hammered in place. Who knows what the motivations are.... but guys your there to represent us,not to follow your own agenda... irrespective of wether you honestly believe your working in our best interests.

Keep this in mind... the people who are dealing with the company experts in IR are people who are no more trained in IR than your average factory worker. As pilots we tend to think we know it all. It tends to get us in trouble.

It doesnt really matter if the impulse guys work for less when we have an ample supply of white ants within our own ranks.
The reality is, it doesnt matter what good will exists between us and the company, or what the spirit of the agreement is. It is how the document is literally interpreted in law... eg First class accomodation.

If it appears that I am criticising senior pilots or all AIPA representatives I wish to point out that in my experience most of the public encouragement and support for junior members come from the most senior crew. Those at the end of their careers, almost untouchable, willing to stand up for the more junior crews. Without fear, real or imagined, of any retribution through training etc.

Those more junior crew willing to stand for election and stand up for us all are to be commended...They deserve our support. They risk much in return for very little.

The moral of this rather long post... next time you think something doesnt affect you and you wont get involved think twice.. Our biggest enemy is apathy... our most powerful asset unity.

27th Aug 2005, 18:28
It seems quite simple to me, - QF is dying and J* is growing!

Simple as that!

27th Aug 2005, 21:12
I think GD would like to be remembered as the one who started a New Airline, he tried it with Australian and Jetstar Asia but both have not quite made it, so he is putting every thing into making Jetstar a success and if he takes down Qantas in the process well so be it...

27th Aug 2005, 21:51
wun wing lo.....great article....the very last paragraph should be posted on everybodys union card......if it wasnt for all the apathy and gutless cowardness of many pilot groups ,we would be in much better standing....most of the mess we are in we have done to ourselves...grest post....kia kaha

Capn Bloggs
27th Aug 2005, 22:05
has been negotiated. It was done in secret with very little information given to the members.

I'm glad this is also happening to another pilot group: I really thought our guys were just stupid, but obviously it's a result of the training all our negotiators go through...

The oldies sacrificing the youngees: what a low act.

28th Aug 2005, 00:00
Wun Wing Lo

Nice bleat.

What you have posted is mostly correct, but is mixed with inaccuracies and emotive opinion/hyperbole.

Why don't you post your thoughts on Qrewroom, where they really belong, rather than here, which will have no bearing on the final vote on the EBA.

I guess its because its not anonymous and so you can't just let off steam. My thoughts on this matter parallel yours, but its not quite as black and white as you have tried to make it appear.

If you actually want to make a difference express your thoughts WHERE IT COUNTS.

And I don't just mean Qrewroom.


28th Aug 2005, 01:02
mmmbop, whilst Qrewroom may be a better place for it, this forum is also visited by probably the same people who view Qrewroom.

Qrewroom has had a history of posters being chased up by management for saying what people really believe, and this tends to have some effect on career prospects. Certain Captains have tried getting assurances that there will be no fall back on posters.........the reply he got was somewhat vague, and Not very assuring. Furthermore, there is now some tendancy to think that Qrewrooms moderator is no longer being impartial and giving people a fair go. I am not sure how true this latter part is....maybe it depends on who you are.

So I think posting anonymously is preferable, although it too has its known faults.

28th Aug 2005, 01:06
I suspect it may be 5 to 10 years away, but Australian and Jetstar will have taken over so much of QF's work, except the really high profile routes, and then all of those subsidaries will be renamed back to Qantas, and by that stage 80% of crew and staff will be on LCC EBA's. Just a thought. They are clearly using Jetstar and Australian to get everyone on LCC EBA's.

Wun Wing Lo
28th Aug 2005, 01:43

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my bleat. I am glad you share at least some of my views. Your questions are valid and ones i have asked of myself.

My post was always intended to be emotive. Most posts on these forums are. Like many people I get emotive, hopefully not too emotional, when i see a career i have worked so hard for crumble before my eyes. There is a little emotion in your post too i suspect.

As for the annonimity i think blueloo has answered one aspect quite well. I would also ask you why you use these forums yourself? It sounds as if you participate in both. And you have signed mmmbop not your real name. Why? Is it that here you can express your views irrespective of your position. From company chief to bystander? Imagine if you were the CEO or CP posting it.... there would be all sorts of accusations... questioning your motivations. I am sure this is not the case.

In most of the free world elections are held by secret ballot and overseen or run by an independant commission for good reason. Added to that it instills confidence that the process is fair accurate and without inteference.

As for the innacuracies in my post... please point each one out... I am sure there are some and I would welcome a correction of my mistake so that we can all make an informed decision.

Just a quick not too... have posted my views were they really count... As I write this they are making their way to the AEC.

Next Generation
28th Aug 2005, 10:54
Welcome to QPRUNE :E

28th Aug 2005, 11:37
Capn Bloggs, has it ever been any different?? The senior guys ave always sacrificed the junior guys to achieve their own aims.

Take 89 for example........I could write pages about how the senior guys took off for jobs with SQ etc early in the piece openly advising all and sundry that they would be back to take thier jobs when it was sorted out.
In the meantime, the junior guys wer eexpected to starve on supermarket shelf stacking rates of pay.

I've seen and heard it all before I'm afraid. Unfortunate but true and it's happening in an airline near you, QF

I wish all my friends in QF the best, but unfortunately the guy who started it all is the former CP of virgin who sold his mates down the drain for a huge lump of shares and retired a squillionaire.

Transition Layer
28th Aug 2005, 23:18
I am sure that last post by "Wun Wing Lo" appeared originally under the name of "Waste Gate".

Maybe I was just imagining it.... :suspect:

Anyway, people have a right to vent their spleen under the protection of pseudonyms that PPrune offers, without the fear of retribution that overshadows Qrewroom.