Faking of I/F hours encouraged for a job?

[Centaurus]

RFDS ad for "Expressions of interest" pilots (what a stupid term) in today's Australian says that "500 I/F" hours are essential.

Does that mean IFR flight plan hours, or perhaps a total of synthetic trainer, PC Flight Sim 2000 hours, actual hours in cloud on automatic pilot, simulated instrument hours under the hood, behind foggles, pulled down baseball cap, or map over the windscreen hours in sunny weather? Or P51 (Parker 51) hours in the log book, or bloody what? Or maybe real hand flying hours in 8/8 cloud sans autopilot?

As always, it is ridiculous RFDS ads like this that pursuade pilots who genuinely would like to fly for the RFDS to fake instrument hours in their log books as it is almost impossible to prove the hours claimed are not true IMC hand flown.

And let's face it, no way can instrument flight time logged while on autopilot (which is apparently quite legal) be equated to hand flying skills on instrument flying - and isn't that what the RFDS really want, I presume?

[morning mungrel]

Once again this hoary old chestnut comes along. Does asking for such minimums encourage the actions you describe? Who knows. They set their minimums according to what they percieve to be what's needed. 500 I/F? Do you need it? Does it matter? If you do fake it, 99% of the time, your first check flight will certainly find that out. Some of us who do actually meet those requirements still can't get a response, let alone an interview. Thems the breaks really. We've already established that hand flown isn't the requirement either for the job or as far as logging I/F is concerned. Whether that is a good thing or not is another question entirely.........

[tinpis]

Surely a valid instrment rating and assessment would be enough?
The logging of time is humbug IMHO do you take note of the time when there is a gap in the clouds and log off then back on again when youre in cloud?
Bollox.

[swh]

And let's face it, no way can instrument flight time logged while on autopilot (which is apparently quite legal) be equated to hand flying skills on instrument flying - and isn't that what the RFDS really want, I presume?

Nope...IMHO , P51, VH-BIC, sky gods and fighter pilots is not what they want.

They want hard working, committed, practical people who are competent IFR pilots with good command decision making with an empathy to helping others in the community.

Good demonstrated experience with flying to remote areas at night is handy.

They will make an assessment on your flying ability when they do the check flight and simulator ride, what’s in you log book will not influence the outcome of the assessment.

Everything else is just vetting to see if they want to talk to you some more.

:ok:

[slice]

swh - if what the you state is what the RFDS is looking for, why do they state an arbitary requirement for IF hours ?


So, let me get this straight, regardless of anything else, if you do not have 500 hours IF IN YOUR LOGBOOK ;) , the RFDS will NOT consider your application any further. Correct ?

[swh]

Slice,

Not idea, ask them, seen adds before indicating less than 200 hours I/F, however with 5 renewals.

:ok:

[Centaurus]

I recall a pilot with 350 hours total time in his log book that went looking for a job in PNG. He was told to come back when he had logged 1000 hours in his log book. A few months later his log book had been adjusted appropriately and he went back to PNG and did very well indeed. His career has been highly successful ever since.

[The Bullwinkle]

It really distresses me to think that so many pilots are prepared to fake their logbooks.

The RFDS are looking for IF hours, not IMC hours.

If you were to present with 1000 hrs total time and 500 instrument hours, they should turn you away immediately, as this is just not proportional. Flying under the IFR is what they are obviously looking for.

For example, I have about 5000 hours total, but only 115 hours in actual IMC, and a further 157 hours on simulators and synthetic trainers. And that is after 7 renewals.

As far as IF flight planned time, I would have at least 3500 hours.

I can assure you that anyone who logs their IF time genuinely, will be regarded more highly by any employer, especially the RFDS. They will pick the Logbook cheats.

[Towering Q]

I have to agree with you there Tinny. I had one of those days yesterday. In and out of cloud, lines of showers where only the ground below is visible. Long periods of total IMC with the occasional period of full sunshine. (Sunnies off, sunnies on.)

How exactly are you supposed to determine the IF for this type of flight? Me, i just take a punt, but it does make a mockery of this 500 IF logged requirement.

[Thump & Go]

Does it say somewhere in Ozzie(as opposed to NZ) law that you must be in cloud to log IF? How do long-haul pilots stay current if this is the case?

[slice]

Bullwinkle - I believe that it is 500 hrs IMC in aircraft that they are asking for- not 500 hrs flying on an IFR flight plan.

[crash_comics]

Auto pilot that works? Yee haa! That must be nice!

[The Bullwinkle]

I believe that it is 500 hrs IMC in aircraft that they are asking for- not 500 hrs flying on an IFR flight plan.
Ask them what THEY want, not what YOU believe.

To log 500 hrs IMC is not realistic. I.F. is not I.M.C.

[compressor stall]

and IMC does not necessarily mean that you are in cloud...

[Centaurus]

The term "I/F" has always meant instrument flying. There is nothing in the CASA approved Pilot Log Books that means Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) hours flown. If the RFDS advertise for 500 hours IF - which they have, then either they want IMC hours (actual or simulated under a hood) or they have misinterpreted the term IF. If they want any flying hours that are IFR flight plan hours they should state that. Hence the confusion.
The originator of the advertisement needs to pull his socks up.

[Frickman]

To log 500 hrs IMC is not realistic.
Why not? There are places in our neighbouring countries where rainfall is measured in metres. Then it gets realistic real fast.

[Shiny Side Up]

Why not call or email RFDS for a clarification?
I'm sure a lot of people on this thread like to know the answer...

[swh]

Thump & Go

Does it say somewhere in Ozzie(as opposed to NZ) law that you must be in cloud to log IF?

As Stallie indicated..this is the actual requirement..

"Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note: Instrument flight time shall only be logged by 1 pilot at a time."

How do long-haul pilots stay current if this is the case?

Combination of line flying and simulator work.

Stallie,

If you get a chance have a look at the cockpit of the B200 N5AE, SN BB-1891, makes the SE look real old.

:ok:

[Thump & Go]

Cheers swh
Question was somewhat tongue-in-cheek and retorical because it's always amused me that people think IF=IMC=flying in cloud.
I know that no where in enzid law does it say 'thou shalt be in cloud to log IF', & I was pretty sure your law would be the same.

The Long-haul pilot example was illustrative only, as (using the mistaken belief that IF = cloud flying) one could never stay legally current. You might see some cloud in AKL,LAX and if you're unlucky around the tropics but generally not enough to maintain '6-in-90'.

[compressor stall]

but you could legally stay current logging IF on dark black nights over the pacific....

[Thump & Go]

exactly stallie

[404 Titan]

As long as it was on an IFR flight. NVFR doesn’t count.

[Capt Claret]

Rather than flog the RFDS or what ever operator for setting requirements, why don't you contact their insurers and flogg them instead? :E

An alternative might be to start a business and only employ the inexperienced to operate your machines. :\

[compressor stall]

I beg to differ 404, the ability to log IF is completely independent of the category (IFR, VFR or NVFR) of flight.

[Centaurus]

As an example of the rorts perhaps one should mention the captain of one of the majors who after the flight, told the F/O to "put me down for 30 minutes I/F" in the times sheet. The trip from Brisbane to Cairns had been in 8/8ths blue sky.

[404 Titan]

compressor stall

CIVIL AVIATION ORDERS
PART 40
SECTION 40.0
Issue 3


CONDITIONS — FLIGHT CREW LICENCES
1 INTERPRETATION

instrument flying means controlling an aircraft’s attitude during flight solely by reference to the aircraft’s flight instruments.

visual flying means controlling an aircraft’s attitude during flight by reference to features outside the aircraft.

2 CONDITIONS ON AEROPLANE PILOT LICENCES

2.7 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence must not practice instrument flying in an aeroplane while the aeroplane is flying under the V.F.R. unless:

(a) either:
(i) the holder also holds a command aeroplane instrument rating that is appropriate to the aeroplane; and
(ii) the aeroplane is equipped with the flight instruments required by CASA under subregulation 177 (1); and
(iii) the aeroplane is equipped with fully functioning dual controls; and
(iv) the other control seat is occupied by a person who holds a pilot licence, other than a student pilot licence, and a type or class endorsement for the aeroplane; and
(v) the person has sufficient vision from the aeroplane to enable him or her to safely fly the aeroplane in visual flying; or

(b) the holder is accompanied by an authorised flight instructor.

Note 1: It is an offence under the Civil Aviation Act 1988 for a person to fly an aeroplane under the I.F.R. unless he or she holds an instrument rating or a private I.F.R. rating, or is receiving training in flying under the I.F.R. from a person who is approved by CASA to give the training.

CAO
SECTION 40.2.1
2.1

Instrument time means instrument flight time and instrument ground time.

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 171
V.F.R. flight


(1) A flight conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Division is classed as a flight under the Visual Flight Rules.

(2) Where an aircraft cannot be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules, the pilot in command shall comply with the Instrument Flight Rules contained in Division 4 of this Part or land at the nearest suitable aerodrome.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(3) An offence against subregulation (2) is an offence of strict liability.

Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 174
Determination of visibility for V.F.R. flights


(1) Flight visibility shall be determined by the pilot in command from the cockpit of the aircraft while in flight.

(3) Subject to regulation 257, the pilot in command of an aircraft operating under the Visual Flight Rules is responsible for determining the visibility for the take-off and landing of the aircraft.

(4) In determining visibility for the purposes of this regulation, the pilot in command shall take into account the meteorological conditions, sunglare and any other condition that may limit his or her effective vision through his or her windscreen.
ENR 1.2 VISUAL FLIGHT RULES
1. FLIGHT RULES
1.1 The Visual Flight Rules (VFR)

1.1.1 VFR flight may only be conducted:

a. in VMC;

b. provided that,when operating at or below 2,OOOFT above the ground or water, the pilot is able to navigate by visual reference to the ground or water;

c. at sub sonic speeds; and

d. in accordance with the speed restrictions identified at ENR 1.1, 79.

As I have said in a previous post when this was brought up, a dark night with no visual queues outside the cockpit isn’t VMC. Therefore one should not be operating a VFR flight in such conditions and therefore can’t log IF.

[swh]

404 Titan,

Incorrect.

Every student I know of that went for their RPPL, GFPT, PPL or CPL had at some stage had to log instrument time, and that time in most cases was logged in VMC, and in VFR aircraft without the required instruments or certification for IFR, and in a lot of cases with an instructor (the PIC) who didnt have an instrument rating.

Also using your theory, you could not log instrument time in airspace that is VFR only, like above FL600, even when in cloud.

And for a little history lesson...the NVFR rating used to be called a Class 4 Instrument Rating.

From CAR 2

I.F.R. is the symbol used to designate the Instrument Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

I.F.R. flight means a flight conducted in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

I.F.R. operation means an operation conducted in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

I.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions other than those designated by the symbol V.M.C.

instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.

instrument ground time means time during which a person practices simulated instrument flight in a synthetic flight trainer that has been approved by CASA under regulation 5.60.

V.F.R. is the symbol used to designate the Visual Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

V.F.R. flight means a flight conducted in accordance with Visual Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

V.F.R. operation means an operation conducted under Visual Flight Rules prescribed in Part 12.

visibility means the ability, as determined by atmospheric conditions and expressed in units of distance, to see and identify prominent unlighted objects by day and prominent lighted objects by night.

V.M.C. is the symbol used to denote meteorological conditions in which the flight visibility and distances from cloud during a flight are equal to, or greater than, the applicable distances determined by the Authority under subregulation 172 (2).

visible, in relation to lights, means visible on a dark night with a clear atmosphere.

:ok: