(EK) pilot meeting

[shawarma]

just checked and although i bid for the day off to go didnt get time off????? so i was wondering will they be videoing this one. maybe we'll all get a dvd????

[journeyman]

I too, bid for the day off and was totally devastated when I didn't get it (which is quite surprising, because we normally always get what we ask for, especially in the top groups).

This means that I will miss out on all the ground-breaking news and decisive changes that have been implemented in order to make our existence here a far happier one. Damn. Maybe next time.

[ruserious]

journeyman, you are wasted in this company, way too subtle :ok:

[Ramboflyer 1]

You see if you bid for the 10th off management know you really want to go to the meeting and heckel it , so them being smarter than you , made you go to work on the day.
The quiet mouse types will get past the bouncers...........:confused:

[Vorsicht]

Nicely said, but i dont think there is any 'c' in divisive!!

[ruserious]

Rumour has it that they will announce transition upgrades at the meeting. If they do, they will try and sell it as doing us a big favour, as opposed to trying to dig themselves out of the corner they have put themselves in.

[fatbus]

i wouldn't hold my breath for transtion upgrades
airbus fo's are on the 3 year upgrade at the moment give or take
airbus fleet needs all the help it can get right now in both seats
we need to get the hours down to something liveable or more will leave which does not look like that will happen(hours that is)

[ruserious]

No argument from me on that fatbus.

I just tell it like I hear it, reasonably reliable source, after all this is a rumour network, as opposed to "rumour buster"

[Warlock2000]

Pilot meeting..... won't EVER waste a day off with one those again!

[flying fruit bat]

I really wonder about a few of you guys at Emirates firstly you bitch and winge about the length of time it is taking to upgrade to command and now that the company has decided in there wisdom to allow transition training again some of you are saying it is a situation they had got themselves into well guess what thay have just decided to get themselves out of it which is a great thing for all concerned so please stop your winging about how bad things are because thay are about to get better for a lot of people at emirates who deserve an upgrade.

Fruit Bat

[Shake]

Bat...

There are NO, sorry 'ON' transition upgrades at this point in time, and little indication that the situation is about to change.

I hope that transitions will be announced soon, but then they are well overdue. The policy thus far, with the associated DECs, has created a great deal of damage & FUEK.

[flying fruit bat]

Actually staynes you tosser I do no what I am talking about get a life maybe if you piss off you might.

[4HolerPoler]

Guys, take a chill-pill please. We understand the Neanderthal urge to trade in hurled insults - please feel free to continue to do so by PM or email but save the rest of us from your cyber-rage & stick to the subject.

4HP

[7x7]

Have to agree with mensaboy. the only way the message that all is not well in the ranks might - stresss might - get across the wide divide to the upper levels would be if no one turned up to these 'feed the chooks' meetings. I'll certainly be doing my bit towards achieving that goal.

[Dissapointed]

Mensaboy, I'll second all of that as well.

[Trashed Aviator]

You need to go to the meeting and you need to get answers , PPrune will not solve your woes although its a great place to releave the stress.
Try and get answers as to why all major airlines do transitions except EK .
You cant be penalised for asking reasonable questions .
Also heard 100 airbus commands next year, sounds like a wind up to keep morale a little longer.
Theres no new 340s or 380s until 2007 so wheres all the commands coming from..
Im not going because im already outta here , i hope it improves for u guys , if it doesnt i may come back in 5 years as a dec on the 380...............

:ok:

[Shake]

While your there ask; why you can fly a 737 for twice the money, why DECs get paid more than other EK captains, why the roster system never seems to work, why we get treated with such contempt and why we shouldn't follow Trashed Aviator out of here?

Been there, asked reasonable questions, got no answers, wasted a day off.

[SecurID]

Will I be going? No, I won't. Why? Because I am fed up of hearing the lies...

The new credit system is cost neutral.
No EK FO will be dissadvantaged by the introduction of DECs.
The salary is keeping up with inflation in Dubai.

Can't be bothered and am too tired to think of any more, anyone else want to add to the list?

[616200]

....Yes... they smell..!!! Aha aha aha.....!!!

[critical winge]

Hey, you guys moan far too much. Be pleased to go to the meeting as there is rumour of an INCREASE in vaseline handouts.

[violate]

rumour of an INCREASE in Vaseline handouts

I really doubt there will be enough to go around for all us line-boys, as the middle managers need all they can get for their own usage :D

[c3a330]

How quickly we pilots forget the wonderful words from Mr. Al R. I remember being told that I was lazy and oh yes, ".... none of the first officers would be dis-advantaged.... " by the new upgrade / DEC policies. I swore I would never attend another meeting. For all of you newcomers, save yourself. I guarantee that you will be more pissed off after the meeting. It is really quite embarrassing to see middle managers justify their new suits.
I suggest we all meet at Brannigans just down the road and have a real meeting. Save yourselves!

[SecurID]

OK, Brannigan's it is then. Yes, I'll be there. Who's going to type out the draft agenda? ;)

[kokkos]

Took the same oath NEVER EVER to attend another meeting.
Where is Brannigans?

[00bultril]

Agenda for Brannigans (Directions & time please):

1. Few pints
2. Get meeting feedback in 2 minutes.
3. More pints
3. Have good laugh at those who attended.
4. More pints
5. Go home, summaries last 10 years in logbook for C.V.

[Gordo]

Seriously, where is Brannigans?

[Ahad Adump]

WHERE IS BRANNIGANS ???

[c3a330]

sorry lads, off flying again. BRANNIGANS LOCATION! Driving south on Al Soufa road. Turn left at the stop lights in front of the Mina Sayahi. Go past the the first (and only) set of lights and the pub is in a small hotel complex on the left. If you go too far, you'll be at the Hard Rock cafe. Cheers

[donpizmeov]

think its called the Park hotel...right next to the hard rock.

Don

[Ahad Adump]

BEWARE BRANNIGANS !!!!

Heard the 2 DCP's, the two with almost no command time between them, have been tasked with getting names of Brannigans attendees.

[Jack D]

So what : it hardly constitutes riotous assembly ! Perhaps the ex East German Airforce Guy is familiar with such tactics but that regime imploded , is history about to repeat itself ? Enjoy the beer.

Seriously they must have better things to do ?

[Warlock2000]

Park Hotel, do you mean FINNEGANS?
Interchange 5, same complex as Hard Rock Cafe.

Telephone no: 04 399-2222

See you there! :ok:

[Jack D]

Finnegans is in the PALM Hotel , but location as described above.

[mach-hog]

:cool: Living in Truth and Speaking in Truth... gonna be some real imbalanced wheels on the Karma wagon after another one of these sessions...

[journeyman]

My karma ran over the dogma years ago...

[Can't think of a name]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Journeyman, thanks for that! It made me laugh, and that's rare on this site these days!

Thanks!

CTOAN

[Global Nomad]

If the fleet managers have the intestinal fortitude to address us, then perhaps they deserve the courtesy of our presence?

As much as I would like to join you at Brannigan's, I will be attending the meeting instead.

I could always join you afterwards.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

A lot of pilots are basing there future on this meeting , but unfortunately I think that EK would rather park aircraft than be forced into changing there policies.
They always get lucky and with high oil prices another airline will fall and i think they would rather wait for this than spend another dirham.
"If you dont like it leave" , well lets see how it is when 100 or more go.
It will be the fault of the pilots leaving though not the management so things will not change.
Should have been the best aviation job on Earth , its a shame to see the greed bring it down.

[kokkos]

GN

English lesson son.

"intestinal fortitude"

Of, relating to, or constituting the intestine: the intestinal wall; intestinal bacteria.
Strength of mind that allows one to endure pain or adversity with courage.

You feeling alright??

These arrogant gits are there to blow their own trumpets. Not one is worth my time.

[Ahad Adump]

Agree with you 100%

All arrogant, self centered, ignorant........etc..etc.

But you should apologies to L.L. only gentleman in that building.

[Global Nomad]

Trimotor,

My reference is to the personal elements of your post.

Either you get great amusement from trying to wind people up (it's a free world), or you actually believe in what you write.

If it is the latter, and I very much doubt it, then you need to be honest and question if you consider yourself a better person for all your slagging.

I have no need to justify who or what I am, just as you don't, but what gives me any reason to believe that you are a pilot? For all you know, I could be your best buddy. ;)

Cheer up old boy...

Kokkos

Quite right in your defintion, just as I am in my use of it.

I guess we attended the same lesson.

I'll pass your apologies on...

[Warlock2000]

Boys, boys, boys! This is a social thread, not a slander and abuse eachothr thread. :ok: Stick together!

Ok, so the important question : What hotel bar is it and what time? I don't know a Palm hotel next to Hard Rock. I do know a Park Hotel that has a pub upstairs call Finnegans.

[Global Nomad]

No argument from me Warlock.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Why not a pub closer to town...............

[macm]

Hi, please i'm looking for information, advise, but please be sincere, in my current job a get 6 to 7 days off including rest time and 8 days off in a row(consecutive), and fly like 70 hrs a month, and make 4000$ a month(max), i'm looking for a job at EK 'cos i always thought it was kind of among the top in air carriers, but i've been reading at your forums and now i'm thinking if it'd be a good idea to go there or not, to make carrier, money wise, etc

really what you reply will mean a lot
thank you

[SecurID]

I hope that the following allows you to make an informed decision. It is unemotional and factual (a first on PPRuNe??!)

I make about $8500 a month, that includes around $1300 overtime. I fly over 90 hours a month on Ultra Long Haul routes and get 8 days off, plus about 3 rest days a month. But I am a Captain.

An FO would make about $5500 including $1000 overtime. But the overtime is not guaranteed, it varies from month to month. What is absolutel certain and factual, is that under theold credit scheme, I would be making more money.

So basically, you can say that a Captain is on about $7000-$8000 and an FO on $4500 - $5500.

What is also certain is that the overtime varies from fleet to fleet. Airbus A340 guys are getting it, B777 are not. But then they fly less, so I think it is a fair system.

I pay 5% (mandatory) and the company pays 10% of my monthly salary into an offshore provident fund, available as a cash lump at teh end of my time here. During the last six months, the equity based investment rose just 0.96%. The cash would have done better at the bank!

The company pay for my medicals and I have what I consider to be excellent medical benefits. But I have yet to really use them, so the fact that it is an excellent scheme is subjective.

I am very happy overall, I have a nice life here, but the day to day Dubai stuff wears me down, so I have to go back to Europe every so often to chill out and relax in the countryside where there is no traffic, noise or polution. But I have to ask the company if I can leave Dubai on my days off. ALthough I have never been told no, others have.

Communication between the management and crew is at an all time low. There is no regular update on the present state of teh business, on the deliveries, on anything. We used to be informed regularly about what was going on in the airline and we used to be allowed to comment on it. Now there is a brick wall between the two groups and there is no evidence at all that the management care about this. After all, if there is no communication to be done, that is one less task that they need to do.

I consider myself quite senior within the airline yet I have not had peak leave for two years now and thi syear, the secondary leave allocation was taken within minutes of teh bids opening up on the system. Not near a computer when it was opened up? Tough. I am now owed 24 days by the company, yet cannot take them this leave year. I had already carried 10 over from last year.

The morale is at an all time low, despite what others may have said. This makes the day to day aspect of going to work more and more difficult to bear.

The type of flying that we do is extremely debilitating. Massive jumps in time zones and bad rostering make a 12 hour time zone change within six days very realistic; That is a fact, I do it often enough and it is painful and very fatiguing.

The cabin crew are treated appalingly (see the thread relating to security - here (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188528))

If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener and I was attracted by the glitz and gloss of the airline and Dubai. What I have discovered is that the airline are not as caring as they purport to be. Notwithstanding special cases where the staff have been incredible well treated (mostly medical cases etc.) the airline has become too big to really take a caring attitude towards the staff, especially the cabin and flight crew. Dubai itself is a massive environmental disaster in the making. The once clear blue Gulf waters are murky and the air is decidedly not fresh.

I hope that the above allows you to make that informed decision. Should you decide to join, then you would have had access to more information than ever regarding the real Emirates and the actual conditions of working here. However, despite all of the above, somebody did tell me once that Emirates was probably the best of a bad industry. Now there's food for thought!

Gulf Nomad is quite right when he says that the details contained here on this forum do not constitute the majority's opinion. However, I firmly believe that there is enough here to make that informed decision. Good luck in your career and safe flying wherever you decide to go.

As a post script, a friend of mine in Italy recomended that I buy a book, it's by a guy called Robin Sharma and is called The Monk That Sold His Ferrari. You are lucky, you don't have to buy it to get the gist of the tale:

Do not go chasing the dollar, money is not everything!! Keep your health, your family bonds, your friendships and your spirituality, the rest will come to you!

[Global Nomad]

Correction. I make no reference to morale.

[critical winge]

SECURE ID said

If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener


Hey there is also a saying that the only reason the grass is always greener is because of the amount of manure that it is covered in. Horticultural observation of course.

;)

[SecurID]

GN, Thanks for your reply and you were, of course, correct. My post has been amended.

Now, though, could you make a comment directly concerning the morale?

I believe that you are earning some respect on this forum with your intelligent and honest remarks, therefore a comment regarding the morale within the Flight Ops department may have a little more weight coming from you rather than coming from one of the 'vocal minority!'

But if you are KG, I would have thought that you would rise above all this! ;)

[macm]

SecurID, Thank you very much for sharing your point of view, it really opened my eyes more, deeply thanks

[Global Nomad]

Critical Whinge

You forgot to add that the manure always floats to the top.

Secure

Would that be an individual’s morale or company morale? Very subjective topic and difficult to measure but here's my take on it.

Morale is an individual thing. Get enough people in that actual airline with a similar level of morale and you will project that to the world at large.

The morale of most Emirates crew that post on pprune is low, but the medium that they are able to communicate can project an impression that EK's morale is at a different level to what it is. An example, how many times do we see a new post saying "Is it really that bad, are there any happy crew out there"?

I will state again, people are free to post what they want. My response is that each post we see here is one individual’s impression and that the vast majority of staff do not express an opinion.

Pprune is a very powerful tool and anyone looking for a take on EK morale needs to be aware that each post comes from just one individual, and they may well use more than one ID.

So what level is Emirates morale at? Who am I to answer that question because I cannot provide anything substantial to prove it?

I have flown with pilots and have friends that would claim their morale is low while others claim this is the best thing that has happened to them. It depends on the individual, where he came from, what he expects out of EK and most importantly how much accountability he attributes to Emirates and how much he accepts himself for his individual situation.

Personal impression though. Emirates morale has been better, I've also seen it a lot worse.

[Warlock2000]

Global,

Some of what you say is 100% correct, the rest is like everything else on this forum your opinion.

I agree that very few of the EK pilots post (not enough time between flights to log on), but that is not a valid indication of the level of morale in the airline. I would go as far as saying that morale is very much at an all time low. The only time I remember it being this low, was when AAR stood in front of a bunch of pissed off pilots and told us how wonderful Dubai is and how fantastic it is to work for EK and that there was NO MORALE PROBLEM!
:eek:

He said there were sh!t-loads of guys applying to EK and if we were not happy we should leave - seems to me like the exodus has begun!
:ok:

[Alphaprot]

I disagree with you GN (which is not unusual).
Morale does not happen in isolation it is a collective entity, directly defined and controlled by company or Organisational culture.
To quote our CRM course, "culture is to organisations, what personality is to individuals"
As such the organisational culture and its philosophies has a direct impact on all the workforce and indeed organisational safety.
Measuring morale is not at all difficult, there are many means of doing so, the simplest being questionnaires. You may notice a complete lack of concern displayed by our management in the morale of its troops, this is manifested in the continual changes in T&C's. No input is sought at any REALISTIC level, just occasional lip service at best.

[Dissapointed]

Spot on with that remark, Alphaprot. Morale has never been as low as this. Also from the CRM course is the direct link between morale and safety, yet no one has woken up to this yet. :confused:

[c3a330]

Gentlemen, here are some guidelines that I suggest we follow for the meeting at Finnegans

"In preparation for the Finnegan's Meeting on Sept 10th, and in order for the waiters to better provide clarification and information on issues that are of concern to you, can you please send specific questions you would like to hear answered to the bartender. This is important as it allows you, the abused, to get the maximum benefit from the meeting, so your participation is requested.

Be advised that the following criteria will apply.

(i) It will not be possible to answer all questions due to time constraints, you must appreciate that.

(ii) All questions must have a senders name, this will not be mentioned at the meeting but is for our records so we can answer the query at a later date directly to the person.

(iii) Please keep questions as generic as possible, don't get bogged into details of a particular item.

(iv) There will be items of corporate confidentiality that will not be able to be expanded upon, you will be advised of these."

Well that about says it all
save yourselves

gotta run, flying again!

[kokkos]

Items of corporate confidentiality:

1. Payrise
2. Number of resignations
3. Cross fleet upgrade
4. DEC program
5. Crew shortage
6. Warning letters for trivial S##T
7. Fatigue models
8. New crew compound near Al Ain
9. New credit hours

Due to the sensitive nature of the above, none may be discussed.

[Warlock2000]

:D :p :O :}

Very good! I know you're right but hope you're not!

:{

[LHR Rain]

The cameras will be in attendance and rolling so we can identify anyone who asks not only an inappropriate question but also a question that is not approved. This will also be used for future disciplinary items. Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

[Vorsicht]

You guys haven't been to enough meetings.

The general format goes something like this.

One month warning to said conflict

Invitation for all and sundry to put forward items for agenda.

Meeting day arrives with throngs of uninformed masses arriving to try and unravel some of the mysteries surrounding their overdraft and chronic fatigue.

Management convenes said meeting, making it clear that they only have limited time to use the facilities and have to be gone by 3pm. (Clearly the owner needs to use the facility for something far more important!). The meeting then commences 30 min late with introduction from SVPFO who tells us how good things are and how lucky we are to be here and how expensive life is in England. Fuel is 50 quid a litre or similar. He then introduces several other flunkies who proceed to mesmerise us with tales of shiny aircraft, massive upgrade numbers, reems of applications from seriously experienced pilots wanting to work for our coveted airline.

They then move on to tell us how EK are industry leaders in fatigue management, how the changes to our productivity will be at worst cost neutral. They throw in the odd little jibe about how we shouldn't be paid if we aren't acutally sitting in a cockpit.

We then get a bit of burst on how we are about to revolutionise cabin crew recruiting, training and morale. (Bigger stick)

This is punctuated by a couple of drinks breaks, some enlightening information about the CRS system, which basicallly says that for the want of a few hundred thousand dirhams and another 100 pilots it might actually work, but in the meantime could we just ask for your support until we get it sorted out.

As we now approach 3 o'clock, SVPFO wanders back in from somewhere ready to wrap up the meeting, content that everyone is happy and all issues have been addressed.

Questions did I here you say. ****, no time for that. Too busy telling us how lucky we are.

That leaves us all to go home and check the overdraft again, grab a quick drink before getting a couple of hours kip to head off to some sh*thole, in the middle of the night, hoping that as long as you get a quick turnaround you might be back in time to see the kids before they go to school.

Seems a whole lot easier to go to finnegans.

[ruserious]

Vorsicht you missed out the bit about how you just have to look at all the American carriers are doing to realise how lucky you are :yuk: :yuk:

[Quod Boy]

Why is it required that IF you wish to ask a question you pre submit it with your name??

Does this mean our esteemed leaders cannot answer questions?

Its a meeting?Big Brother will be watching.

So,dont ask any awkward questions then to the inner sanctum sat in the front row in the leather chairs with notepads at the ready!

QB

:cool:

[SecurID]

That email asking for questions etc. just goes to show how out of touch all those guys really are in the office. What a shame, they had the opportunity to do something good here, but the blew the opportunity before the actual date of the meeting.