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skua
24th Aug 2005, 16:18
Apologies if this has appeared before, but this is too good to miss. Well said Brucie:

"Iron Maiden manager Rod Smallwood says the disruption of the band’s set on the closing night of the Ozzfest tour is the worst thing he has seen in 30 years in the music industry.

The band’s performance at the Hyundai Pavilion near Los Angeles on August 20 was marked by missiles being thrown at the musicians from the side of the stage, while the PA was interfered with and stage props were delayed from appearing. The action is believed to be retaliation from the Osbourne camp after Iron Maiden frontman Bruce Dickinson told Kerrang! that Ozzy Osbourne used an autocue when performing. He had also made public references to reality television on the tour.

Smallwood, who works for Sanctuary Artist Management, says, “Assaulting musicians while performing by throwing bottle tops, lighters and eggs at them from just a few yards away is vile, dangerous, criminal and cowardly.”

He says the majority of the crew on the Ozzfest tour were “terrific” but has called for an apology from those responsible from those responsible.

He also called the show a “truly remarkable rock and roll event, even if for all the wrong reasons”. At one point Dickinson came to the front of the stage brandishing a union flag and told the audience, “This is a f***ing British flag, and these colours don’t f*ing run.”"

VFE
24th Aug 2005, 18:46
Dunno if I've ever done a gig where something WASN'T thrown at me - usually by my fellow musicians come to think of it.... :uhoh:

Good on Maiden and BD though. Class act. :ok:

VFE.

chuks
24th Aug 2005, 19:46
Ozzie Osbourne can read?

Did anyone catch the episode of 'The Osbournes' where Ozzie went to get permission for a bonfire in front of his beach house, only to be unable to tell the authorities his own address? Some kind of poster child for brain damage, there....

Idunno
24th Aug 2005, 23:26
At one point Dickinson came to the front of the stage brandishing a union flag and told the audience, “This is a f***ing British flag, and these colours don’t f*ing run.”" I have to say I'm a bit hacked off with Iron Maidens use of this kind of language and imagery: http://www.ironmaiden.com/media/images/IID00002124.jpg http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/mccormick/photos/no2030r.jpg
I know its supposed to be taken as a bit of a joke - and its all part of the 'bad boy' image that a heavy metal band must project to attract the nutters who buy their albums - but this particular brand of crap has been adopted by a bunch of murdering thugs in Northern Ireland who call themselves 'loyalists' and revel in sectarian violence.

I understand Bruce Dickinson is a nice guy, and has a lot of followers on this BB - but doesn't it kinda grate? To be associated with this sort of cheap 'n' nasty bullshit?

Send Clowns
24th Aug 2005, 23:33
Mate, someone used a Swastika to represent terrible evil, yet it still means peace to many people. Someone used a yellow star to represent to starving of millions for political gain, yet it is still an innocent symbol of the birth of god to many. Someone used the red rose as a symbol of despising, corruption and of divisive envy, yet it is still a symbol of love to most.

Do you really think the UDA had permission to copy that cover?

Why do you let the revolting people who subvert patriotism take our symbols away from us? The more they are used as symbols of true patriotism, the less they will be seen to bring together those repulsive elements that damage our land. I am sure Mr Dickinson doesn't want to be associated with that bullshit (I can assure you he is a very decent man, after spending some time chatting to him at a PPRuNe bash). It is rather nasty of you to associate him with it.

Idunno
24th Aug 2005, 23:47
Very touching comparisons there Send Clowns.

I wonder how deluded you must be to think that an image of some kind of infernal skull faced zombie on a rampage might be compared in cultural value to a Hindu swastika or a rose.

Nice try though.

Send Clowns
24th Aug 2005, 23:51
Idunno

Do not have the arrogance to put words into my mouth. If you are going to lie about what I have said, I take it you are admiting having lost the argument.

Yours was not a nice try. As before, it is a nasty attempt to blacken those that don't live to your prejudices as to what people's opinions should be. It is lazy, without any coherent argument, completely misses the entire point of my post, and completely ignores the issues of the thread that I had foolishly assumed you to be addressing.

Do you have anything relevant to say, or do you concede the point?

Foss
24th Aug 2005, 23:57
Idunno

You can hardly hold Iron Maiden responsible if a terror gang put an album cover on a gable end. You may as well sue clothing manufacturers for making balaclavas.

can see this suddenly going waaaaaaaaaaaaay off thread.

Idunno
25th Aug 2005, 00:02
Temper temper!

Perhaps you can explain to us what the deep historic cultural significance of a rampaging zombie is - to your mind?

The symbology and the language is threatening, intimidatory, and insulting to a great many people in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.

No doubt there are white Americans from the southern states who feel exactly the same sentimentality about the KKK as you do about rampaging flag waving zombies.
That doesn't make it right though, does it.

Send Clowns
25th Aug 2005, 00:15
Idunno

Can you actually read what you have been responding to? You know, the bit you quoted? You are responding to a thread about Bruce dickinson using a Union Flag. If you need to know the cultural significance of that, then ask someone who cares what you are capable of understanding.

The meaning of the album cover is nothing to a non-Maiden fan, up to interpretation by them and their favoured band. Or are you sole arbiter of the meaning of these things?

If you look at that album cover it is about the horror of war, quite clearly. Apart from that it is probably just the normal fantasy horror of heavy metal imagery. I would also interpret it as not however being anti-war, especially in the context of Bruce's comments, if anyhting more than fantasy horror perhaps a comment on war as being really nasty even when necessary, although that interpretation is much more debatable and might well be beyond any intended meaning.

Why does it insult the people of Northern Ireland? That really is a bizarre interpretation, not as far as I can see even debatable! None of them are depicted on it, nor addressed by it until it was stolen by some of them!

You still have the blind arrogance to assume what I meant without, apparently, reading what I had said. I said nothing specific about the album cover at all until this post. I have not expressed an opiniopn about flag-waving zombies.

Idunno
25th Aug 2005, 00:22
At one point Dickinson came to the front of the stage brandishing a union flag and told the audience, “This is a f***ing British flag, and these colours don’t f*ing run.”" Did Bruce repeat those words in Dublin?

Foss
25th Aug 2005, 00:28
Right, I'll bite.

The deep historical significance is that it's a battle field. Prod terrorists like battlefield imagery, especially since the Somme, and old Eddie is carrying Union Jack, which makes him a star in Dee Street (where the muriel is).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The symbology and the language is threatening, intimidatory, and insulting to a great many people in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine.. a terror group using scary and intimidating imagery. Someone should stop them.
It would make you think that they wanted you to believe that they could come round to your house, sledge hammer down your door and then shoot you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt there are white Americans from the southern states who feel exactly the same sentimentality about the KKK as you do about rampaging flag waving zombies.
That doesn't make it right though, does it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats such a jump it actually made me laugh.
Send Clowns, didn't realise you were actually 'sentimental' about flag waving zombies. Do ya just miss seeing 'em about the place?
:rolleyes:

You can miss 'em..but it doesn't make it right.

Blacksheep
25th Aug 2005, 00:43
I was a 'flag waving zombie' for several years. We who served did have considerable respect for the flag and what it stood for. Most of us still do and we don't like to see anybody using it for anything but its true purpose. Its our national symbol and many brave men and women have died in its service. Please don't abuse it.

Foss
25th Aug 2005, 00:46
I Dunno, you've completely lost me mate.
A few people through some crap at poor old Brucie in the States, kindly brought to our attention by Skua and you go off on a wiiiild tangent about murals and did he shout in Dublin.

I think your trying for some sort of religious bias angle here, good luck.

The hills.. I'm a running to them.

Idunno
25th Aug 2005, 00:47
Well said Blacksheep. Its been used, abused and trailed in the dirt for centuries, and there are still those who just can't get it.

Ultralights
25th Aug 2005, 00:50
yeah, but what happened at the gig?

Hamrah
25th Aug 2005, 08:41
I think the word missing from all this is CONTEXT .

If any of you are interested the context in which Bruce made his statement, its available on MTV's website. The attempts to deliberately ruin their set, and spoil a gig that 45000 people paid money to see is detailed there.

Whenever the Trooper is performed, Bruce waves the flag, its theatre, nothing more.

And yes, in Dublin last year, and no doubt this year, a small group of people might find that offensive and boo him. But trust me, it is a very small group.

With regard to the hijacking of images by terrorists groups, I also find it offensive. As an irishman, I find the use of my national flag, (of which I am proud), by a terrorist organistation deeply offensive. But it is not within my remit, or anyone elses remit to stop them. These people have no regard to human life, never mind regard to the laws of decency or honour.

To protest at the imagery used over 20 years by a Rock band, just because it has been illegally hijacked by a bunch of thugs, is nonsense.

H

Foss
25th Aug 2005, 09:32
Hurrah for Hamrah.
'Context' is a lot better than 'taking the p155' (my tactic).

It's a sunny day, I'm off to the garden centre to stop them selling white lillies, find it offensive, doncha know.
(escially bulbs - you've gotta catch them while they're young)

High Wing Drifter
25th Aug 2005, 11:14
It amazing some of you take it so seriously, they sure as hell don't (no pun intended). Its all a bit of a laff, a parody and a bit of a piss take.

Who else could come up with the lyrics "Bring your daughter to the slaughter" - a timeless classic :E

VFE
25th Aug 2005, 16:26
Looks like Shazza has well and truly shot herself in the foot this time! Fancy thinking she could turn the masses against a British institution such as Iron Maiden!

I mean, what is she trippin' on?!

She has made a lot of enemies now and bought shame on the good name of her husband.

Smart move. :rolleyes:

VFE.

Capn Notarious
25th Aug 2005, 17:12
I placed Iron Maidens Rock in Rio DvD in the player. Then having turned down the volume, watched / listened intently.
The instrumental interplay between six all of them, is a crafted display of musical virtuosity. Iron Maidens Premier standard is honed from play & practice. As Rio is so good, I am envious of those who saw them very recently across the pond.
Being too old to leap up, at stage front Reading or Leeds, I shall hope it is being visually recorded.
Englands finest have done their duty: roll on August end, one is like five decade kid awaiting the Death on the Road DvD.

Craggenmore
26th Aug 2005, 18:56
These colours dont run Going back to the Original post here...

The US adopted these words after September 11th 2001, and whilst in the US in 1993 I saw t-Shirts, flags, pin badges everywhere with these words.

Have these words been used anywhere else before September 11th 2001?

:confused:

Blacksheep
27th Aug 2005, 05:53
These colours do not indeed run.

The tattered bullet scarred remnants of many examples hang in churches and cathedrals all over the land in memory of those who waved them in our enemies' faces.

A rock band may amuse themselves by trivialising the institution to help them make a few dollars, but don't expect any veterans to see the joke. The Union Flag is not a toy and its not for messing about with.

cyclicmicky
27th Aug 2005, 07:17
Blacksheep Hear Hear, I second that.
CM

Richard Taylor
27th Aug 2005, 08:07
Not surprised Ozzy is using autocue,he's been on TV too many times with that reality show of his...what's it called...the OSBOURNE'S or summit ? ;)

Re Bruce getting pelted over in the States,did he call 911...or 666? :E

Binoculars
27th Aug 2005, 13:06
Sharon Osbourne admits cutting Iron Maiden's sound

Annual Ozzfest organiser Sharon Osbourne has admitted a role in the incident that marred Iron Maiden's August 20 tour performance in California, by cutting off the band's sound on several occasions.

Iron Maiden was pelted with eggs and debris from the front of the pavilion during its performance, which was its last on the festival's tour.

Osbourne did not take responsibility for those actions.

She previously claimed that Iron Maiden singer Bruce Dickinson repeatedly disrespected her husband Ozzy during the tour, and that other Iron Maiden members were ashamed of Dickinson's behaviour.

In her new statement, which doubles as an open letter to Maiden manager Rod Smallwood, she said:

"For 20 shows we were forced to hear Dickinson's nightly outbursts from the stage, 'When we come back to America, we'll be back with a proper sound system' or 'We won't be playing the same old songs every night (like [Black] Sabbath),' 'We don't need a teleprompter (like Ozzy)' and 'We don't need a reality show to be legit (again, like Ozzy)'.'

Sharon Osbourne explained cutting Maiden's power in part by saying: "Was Dickinson so naive to think that I was going to let him get away with talking ... about my family night after night? I don't think he realises who he's dealing with."

She signed the letter as the "real Iron Maiden".

Earlier this week, Smallwood said he had "never seen anything anywhere near as disgusting and unprofessional as what went on that night".

- Reuters

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1447425.htm


Handbags at forty paces!

ComJam
27th Aug 2005, 15:24
Captain Notarious

The flag in question is the flag of the United Kingdom....."England's finest"??

CJ
(Stroppy Jock) :)

Daysleeper
27th Aug 2005, 18:10
Its sad that the organiser of a gig cannot take some light hearted ribbing. The Osbournes seem to be so up themselves that rather than having a quiet word they disrupt the enjoyment of 40 odd thousand people.

And as for

For 20 shows we were forced to hear Dickinson's nightly outbursts from the stage, 'When we come back to America, we'll be back with a proper sound system' or 'We won't be playing the same old songs every night (like [Black] Sabbath),' 'We don't need a teleprompter (like Ozzy)' and 'We don't need a reality show to be legit (again, like Ozzy)'.'

This was in America. I'm sure if they thought they had any real case they would have sued rather than cut the sound.

Capn Notarious
27th Aug 2005, 19:29
Captain Notarious The flag in question is the flag of the United Kingdom....."England's finest"??
CJ (Stroppy Jock)

I made a mistake and apologise.

ComJam
28th Aug 2005, 09:21
No worries mate! :)

VFE
28th Aug 2005, 10:55
Blacksheep & Cyclicmickey,

Art is supposed to be a quotidian interpretation of mankinds perception of the events that have shaped his life and the lives of those around him over the years. Man is part and parcel to his own evolution and if his art manages to snapshot and congratulate his history then why is this such a bad thing?

Nobody in Iron Maiden is disrespecting the flag of England, indeed they are highlighting it's patriotic powers against the kind of behaviour people in positions of apparent power often get away with. In laymams terms, their use of OUR flag is a celebration of it's merits. How can this be a bad thing?

Answer that and stay fashionable!

VFE.

Binoculars
28th Aug 2005, 13:21
I don't even understand the question. :confused: :confused: :confused:

ComJam
28th Aug 2005, 15:30
Ahem...

VFE, to quote myself

The flag in question is the flag of the United Kingdom.....

It's made up of the flags of all three Countries.....

This link should clear it up for you :)

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

CJ (Stroppy Jock....again)

VFE
28th Aug 2005, 18:33
Thanks ComJam.

Schoolboy error!

http://www.londonbridgetoys.com/coldbig4.jpg

But I bet the Scots were pussies...... ;)

VFE.

Teal'c
28th Aug 2005, 21:45
Sometimes maiden use a different flag on the artwork.

http://www.maiden-world.com/images/wallpaper/clansman.jpg

I have been a fan of maiden for about 20 years and Bruce always has soemthing to say on stage, all part of the routine.

Puritan
28th Aug 2005, 22:18
Might I ditto on what hamrah said previously about folks hijacking a national symbol purely to further the own ends.

My late Grandmother was an unbelievably stoic Irishwoman & mother of 10 (actually 11 if one includes a still born) in very - and I do mean VERY - poor circumstances; i.e. my grandfather kept his family on what he earnt as farm 'plough boy' plus what they could grow upon the half-acre at the back of their two-bedroom cottage – he himself working until his dying day @ 78 (wherein, needless to say, I just wish to God that I could have taken him flying and to see the things which I've myself have been so immensely privileged to see & experience).

Now when she died (at 96) my Grandmother's coffin was ceremoniously draped in the (Green White & Gold) Irish Tricolour when it left the church - a symbolic act made by certain people (go figure) who were hell-bent on making a statement! - and the coffin (which I, along with six cousins, helped to carry) was 'escorted' down the road by a posse on either side of men wearing 'black berets'.

That said, and for all that it might seem, the reality is that this wonderful old lady truly f'kin hated these murderous scum and only relented (read, ‘was effectively forced’) to allow them to make this ‘patriotic statement’ to prevent them from turning upon her family.

A lot a very innocent people have died and been maimed in the name of ‘freedom’ and wherein wasn’t it Aristotle who said: "The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousand fold" and wherein imho some people are born and bred to hold a principled & honest belief - and then there's all the rest ! :rolleyes:

Whilst I'm sorry if this response might appear a bit off thread, but there's a great (Irish) song that goes by the name of the 'Patriot Game (http://www.lyricz.org/lyrics/215781/dubliners,+clancy+brothers/the+patriot+game/)' which, if one listens to it, kind of reflects what I've written above (and my own sentiments).

Blacksheep
29th Aug 2005, 04:46
The flag of England VFE is a red cross on a white field.

The Union Flag is our national standard. It is not a work of art and any 'artist' who seeks to abuse it in their own self-interest, and those who seek to justify such use, must expect to face the wrath of those of us who served under those colours (and did not run).

To some, objects like an unmade bed, a pickled shark and a pile of bricks may also be art. I'm not one of them. Mark Knopfler summed it up nicely "In the Gallery"

VFE
29th Aug 2005, 15:01
Yes thanks Blacksheep - I do know the differences between the flag of St.George and the Union Flag.

My point is that you are taking a negative point of view on the context with which Bruce Dickinson uses our flag. It is a celebration of all it's power & glory and as a citizen he has just as much right as you and I to honour his flag whichever way he wishes. As you well know, people died so he could do just that!

Would you advocate it's use in sport given it's highly commercial connections these days or does it simply depend upon whether you approve of the sport?

VFE.

Blacksheep
30th Aug 2005, 05:21
I'm happy to see it used in sport or anywhere else for that matter, as long as its properly positioned on a flag pole, not brandished like a rag or wrapped round the body of one of the participants (unless they're in their coffin, that is).
Treat the flag with respect. It deserves it.

yakker
30th Aug 2005, 11:51
Cheerio, thats what I like to see, someone so patriotic holding the union flag upside down!

To deliberately fly the flag upside down is a signal indicating a situation of 'DISTRESS'. It is also "lese Majeste" (which means: insulting the Crown), and is theoretically still a crime in the UK and its commonwealth!

I am amazed at how many patriotic British hold or fly the flag upside down at major sporting events.

flyblue
30th Aug 2005, 12:36
I'm not trying to make any point, just thought you might find it interesting

flyblue
__________________________________________________
Notes on a small island

Aug 18th 2005
From The Economist print edition


An old approach to history is new again

“ONCE upon a time there was a giant called Neptune.” So begins “Our Island Story”, a much-loved history of Britain for children by H.E. Marshall that was first published in 1905. The book has been out of print since 1953, when a special edition was published to mark the coronation of Elizabeth II. Next month Civitas, a think-tank that frets about the decline of social mores, is reissuing the book as a corrective to the trendy, disjointed history that is now taught in schools. Civitas also believes that, by giving Britons a story to be proud of, the book might even turn them into better citizens.

Britain lacks a good founding story. Other European countries had liberation movements that threw off foreign oppressors, or at least a decent revolution that swept away the old order. In Britain, many of the things that look like national symbols turn out to be Victorian fakes. The Houses of Parliament, for example, are coated in gothic details that seem to represent ancient liberties. But they were built long after the plans for Washington, DC, were drawn up.


“Our Island Story”, with its stories about King Alfred's cakes and Maori cannibals in New Zealand, seems like an odd candidate to plug this gap. However, two current trends are on the book's side, and will ensure it a more sympathetic audience than, say, Helen Bannerman's “Little Black Sambo”, another children's favourite in the early years of the 20th century.

First, senior politicians are musing on what being British is all about. Labour started doing this when it came into power in 1997. During its first term, the answers the party came up with involved ditching allusions to fusty traditions and insisting that Britain was a young country. Since 2001, when riots revealed how little whites and Asians mixed in some northern cities and September 11th showed how useful shared symbols like flags can be, this enquiry has become more urgent. It is also focused more on the past.

Gordon Brown, the chancellor, now routinely talks about venerable British values. Not surprisingly, he is particularly fond of the 18th-century Scottish enlightenment. David Blunkett, the pensions secretary, has eulogised England's landscape, sense of humour and radical traditions. John Denham, an influential former minister, thinks Britain needs a national story that includes an account of its global role in the 19th century, to explain why migrants from Commonwealth countries belong alongside Anglo-Saxons. A book that insists the English were not really defeated by the Normans fits the mood well.

The second thing that counts in the book's favour is that historians have rediscovered storytelling, and even fiction. Well-respected academics like Sir Norman Davies and Simon Schama have swapped the safety of narrow monographs for grand sweeps across the centuries. “Our Island Story” is still more cutting-edge. With its brave mix of truth and myth, it is impeccably postmodern.

Capn Notarious
30th Aug 2005, 21:06
Ooh you lot are really off the scent and sidetracking a thread; lost in the world of pedantic and semantic.
We can only sit and wait, until the main player does or does not make comment.

Meanwhile, a CEO of an airline is asking. "Can we have our pilot back."

Foss
30th Aug 2005, 21:18
Well, we've got from a heavy metal band getting stuff thrown at them on stage, to the Scottish Enlightenment. Impressive bit of thread creep.

Still don't know if Bruce shouted anything in Dublin.
:E

ComJam
30th Aug 2005, 22:23
<Stropp on>

It's not the Scots who need enlightening...

It's the thousands of Englishmen and women who look at a map of the UK and think, ahhhhhhhh England. Those who use the word "England" as a substitute for the word "Britain" and those who believe the Union Flag is the "English" flag.

It's TV shows who describe contestants as being from Liverpool, Manchester, Norwich, Dunny-on-the-Wold and SCOTLAND (the small town attached to the north of England)

It's sports commentators on the EBC, using the word "we" when, impartially(?!), describing how well England are playing against Scotland.......WE?!

But most of all, it's...........well, it's...........the fact that we lost at Culloden..... bugger.

<Stropp off>

Only kidding...................mostly :)

Foss
31st Aug 2005, 01:36
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Gordon Brown, the chancellor, now routinely talks about venerable British values. Not surprisingly, he is particularly fond of the 18th-century Scottish enlightenment.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats all I was referring to, I know you're more than 80% Lorne sausage and Irn Bru.

You'll get through and win the World Cup some day, I know it

One thing I've never got, what muppet had the idea to make an upside down Union flag a distress signal.
1) How on God's green earth are you meant to recognise that it is upside down in any distressing situation.
2) Someone ALWAYS brings it up in arguments like this.
3) Doesn't matter a rats arse to me 'cause if I flew it I'd get in bother with the law.